Thought this would make for an interesting discussion, and seeing that there is no such thread I decided to make one.
Anyway, now to the point.
As many of you may know Sjow is pretty unique with his openings where he simply doesn't scout. People often give new players advice that scouting is one of the most important tasks to do during a game yet one of the top EU terrans seems to do the opposite.
Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play?
Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows?
Poll: Is there any benefit of not scouting early?
No, you need that early scout (314)
63%
Yes (186)
37%
500 total votes
Your vote: Is there any benefit of not scouting early?
He lost to lastshadow because lost shadow deicded that because he didn't scout he was just going to proxy double rax him.
I think the opinion that unscouted cheeses = you still lose is wrong, and, i may be wrong, maybe his solid builds do defend cheese, but if he goes to korea server where everyone all ins really well and often he may change it =P
Not scouting is a pretty minor mineral gain, say 50-100 or so, which, in most builds, is only a few seconds. In some other builds its significant but its going to lose you much less games than not scouting.
Remember also that he's terran and they are generally the safest from cheese. As zerg and protoss vs protoss a 1 gas 4 warpgate literally beats 95% of "solid standard builds" and we see some terrans get away with fast expanding vs 4 warpgates and still surviving because of bunkers. Again ZvZ you need to know if he's going for a fast expand or baneling bust or early pool or some other like roach, because they all need different responses. If you go roach as a solid build and he has a hatch done by the time your ovi gets to his base the game is over he just needs some speedlings early then he can afford way more roaches than you.
Well if he doesn't want to change his build depending on what he sees, he might as well wait. I am not sure though how well his build does against double offrax + scv all in and things like that. I feel better when i know whats going on and the information can pay off if something unorthodox happens and gets discovered.
I don't see why you would ever forgo early scouting. You literally don't lose anything by doing it and the potential information you could gather are amazing. (early double gas, 2 rax before orbital, 2gate, proxy anything, cannon rush..)
You also can get control of xel'naga watch tower or leave your worker in front of their base to see when they are moving out with what composition.
tbh i don't like it, i'm for late scout for more economical build (in tvt you don't really need to scout tho only position and how many marines he has). you can very easily rush him with 2proxy gate or rax or whatever. In TvP and TvZ definately scout, always, there's always good information you can get. In TvT it's not that necessary.
Might be possible for Terran since they are quite strong early game. However, especially as a Zerg player, it's essential to know the spawn location/rush distance of your opponent at the very least. Knowing when and what units to produce as Zerg is absolutely necessary and playing blindly only spells trouble.
I think its ridiculous and if it really is viable in the long term SC2 has failed. I don't know too much about Sjow's play and to the extent that he doesn't scout, I think some MUs on some maps delaying scouting for a great deal of time may be fine, but I don't see how the economical benefits of not scouting balance out with playing completely blind.
Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
And to back up my statement: I've seen him get caught off guard by mutalisks and other sneak attacks... That can easily be avoided by having better map awareness. Furthermore, nydus worms become a huge pain in the ass unless you have good awareness. And really, if you're floating on 2000 like he often is, you can afford that.
I can't think of a single instance where having less information about your opponent gives you any sort of advantage. Are you sure he never scouts? It seems like he'd be extremely vulnerable to both very greedy builds (Nexus first, CC first), as well as a ton of cheese.
Its pretty simple. If he doesnt change his build depending on what he see? Why scout?
You might aswel stay in base with that one scv and gain extra minerals... Its stupid to scout if you aint looking for anything.
For example. On steppes of war vs zerg as protoss. You can scout on 9 probe to see if he does some fast pool. But you wont actually change anything in your build that early, so you might just scout on 11 probe instead.. It will gain the exact same result, just that you get slightly more minerals if you do later scout.
I dont really know what build sjow uses when he does this, but Id assume he does some kinda of 2rax stuff.. Scouting around your base with a marine or something might be just enough to stop any cheese.. And no matter what the opponent does he will do same stuffs.. Say exp into 6rax.
On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote: Why doesn't he scout?
Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it.
Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard.
On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote: Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote: Why doesn't he scout?
Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
Well, when I played him I beat him pretty badly. Maybe he had a bad day, though, but every time I watch his stream I see him floating at 2000+ minerals + not having any map awareness at all.
Tbh though, he'd be really really good if he could spend all his money. Even with 2000 minerals in the bank, he still wins most of his games.
On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote: Why doesn't he scout?
Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
Well, when I played him I beat him pretty badly. Maybe he had a bad day, though, but every time I watch his stream I see him floating at 2000+ minerals + not having any map awareness at all.
He might have been drunk with five friends watching and a hooker sucking his c*ck for all you know
Seriously though, statistics don't lie. SjoW is a beast when it comes to winning games.
EDIT: back to this: "Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line." on an unrelated note -holy cow, MorroW would've been such a beast if he sticked with Terran, he's still number two in number of tournament wins (purely with Terran) and he started practicing Zerg a month or two after the release :o
its not like hes not scouting he just does it later besides his midgame scout and map awerness is probably better than any other player i've seen (never seen anybody fighting for xelnaga tower vision he does) anyway i think hes just stubborn and underestimates information which gives you early knowlage about opponent position (close/cross etc) and amout of gayers he has, i dont see a reason why wouldnt he sacrefice this few extra minerals for earlier scouting considering his macro is quite bad and he often end up with alot of those anyway.
I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
no, it's stupid, but he probably has a build order that he's determined won't change depending on his opponent's strategy, and therefore sees no need to scout.
do NOT even give credit to not scouting as to call it a style, it's just stupidity. i don't care how good anyone is at the game. you're playing russian roulette if you don't scout at some point, end of story. i don't watch sjow's stream so i don't know if he just doesn't scout or he only scouts much later than usual, so i won't say he's bad or anything. he probably knows exactly what to look for and scouts exactly at that point and not a second sooner.
Actually he is scouting. Watch his stream or replay and wait for the Helion to pop out. Reapers not uncommon either, and should he be denied crucial information there's always the banshee.
Really, you do not need to see every building your opponent makes, every unit he has. Even spotting just a few, gives you a really good idea where he is, and what he is doing.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Herculix wrote: no, it's stupid, but he probably has a build order that he's determined won't change depending on his opponent's strategy, and therefore sees no need to scout.
do NOT even give credit to not scouting as to call it a style, it's just stupidity. i don't care how good anyone is at the game. you're playing russian roulette if you don't scout at some point, end of story.
The game is about winning, the smart guy is the guy who's winning.
Again, I quote this because it's pretty god damn convincing statistics:
On December 14 2010 21:36 scion wrote: I don't see why you would ever forgo early scouting. You literally don't lose anything by doing it and the potential information you could gather are amazing. (early double gas, 2 rax before orbital, 2gate, proxy anything, cannon rush..)
You also can get control of xel'naga watch tower or leave your worker in front of their base to see when they are moving out with what composition.
There is absolutely no reason not to scout. ever.
you lose mining time from that one scv, and it is pretty huge depending on how much of an advantage you want during the early game. You know when you send a worker into your opponent's mineral line and they attempt to surround it with all their workers but dont kill it? it drastically affects their build order (depending on what you consider drastic).
for those of you who think this doesnt matter and doesn't really affect your bo's, try starting off a game where you just take one of your first 4 workers to scout and you will see how behind you will get from that one worker. this applies the same way up until you establish your bo, since sc's a game of seconds, any good player will want EVERY little advantage that he can get over his opponent.
I remember when sjow started his trend of not scouting, and it was a direct result of the patch where terrans had to build a depot before a rax, and he thought that there's no need to scout any more since there would a lot less cheese. so, he'd rely on his solid bo's to encompass what cheeses were possible, while gaining a slight lead in economy.
I think Sjow has tons of bad habits that people shouldn't really emulate. He is a really solid player though but think if he got rid of those habits he would be far better.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Herculix wrote: no, it's stupid, but he probably has a build order that he's determined won't change depending on his opponent's strategy, and therefore sees no need to scout.
do NOT even give credit to not scouting as to call it a style, it's just stupidity. i don't care how good anyone is at the game. you're playing russian roulette if you don't scout at some point, end of story.
The game is about winning, the smart guy is the guy who's winning.
Again, I quote this because it's pretty god damn convincing statistics:
Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line.
i editted my post to better illustrate my point. and where did i say at any point that he isn't smart or a winner even in the original post? i said not scouting is stupid, which it is. the op is making an incorrect assumption that he doesn't scout which he does, he just probably scouts exactly when he needs to, which is in my edit.
well as nazgul said and day9 has repeatedly pointed out. That's because a lot of people scout for just for the sake of scouting.
A lot of people get observers / hallucination / suicide OL just to feel safe and even with the new information gained, they still do not do anything different with their build. So for Sjow, why bother scouting at all if this is the case.
He probably uses a very standard and safe build that is immune to most cheeses anyway.
On December 14 2010 22:02 Numy wrote: I think Sjow has tons of bad habits that people shouldn't really emulate. He is a really solid player though but think if he got rid of those habits he would be far better.
His lack of scouting isn't a "bad habit", he deliberately does it because he has a reason. There are so many players who don't know why scouting is important yet they do it anyway simply because everyone tells them to. Scouting/non-scouting isn't the issue here, it's really why you play the way you play, SjoW has his own style and it's worked very well for him thus far. He's beaten so many top names with relative ease and if he believes non-scouting is the way to go for him, so be it. Keep in mind he develops his own builds, he puts a lot of thought into what he does. Many people just blindly do what they see in replays or see on a strategy forum without understanding why the build works.
However, does this mean that players shouldn't scout? absolutely not, scouting hands down is one of the most vital aspects of the game. However if you're at a level where you can sack an aspect of the game to improve another aspect, then that's on you. For 95% of the people on TL here, scouting is a necessity.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
I think this debate doesn't necessarily need to center around Sjow, just early scouting in general. As terran in basically every MU I will scout.
TvT -> Scout early enough to get SCV before the marine is out, check gas timings since proxy rax (jinro vs polt on jungle basin style) FE builds are super popular now.
TvZ -> Scout so SCV arrives when your rax is finishing so you can harass with a bunker and force them to pull drones if you want, Probably the least important for real information as I'll play similiar vs 14 hatch and 14 pool, but benefit of forcing him to pull drones is enough (as long as he can't gas steal and force you to keep your marines in your base if you're not 2 raxing) You can also see any OLs that might be ackwardly placed that might be able to get sniped by marines.
TvP -> Scout so SCV arrives before the stalker comes out and with time to see all pylons in the toss base and escape before dying. Pylon placement super important for later scouting, and where the chronoboost is being spent is something I like to know.
I could probably say more, but it just seems to me worker scouting is essential. Just because a lot of lower level players foolishly scout for the sake of scouting doesn't mean scouting is bad.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line?
I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on....
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
I think you've misunderstood - the OP is talking about the fact that SjoW doesn't scout with an SCV early on in the game.
The problem i see with not scouting is when the cheese comes, sure your BUILD didn't change, but your unit positioning and scv production should have. For example if you scout a t base and its empty you need to find the proxy, see when its coming and pull some scv's so you dont get overrrun. If the stuff appears at your ramp and you're completely unprepared you can insta-lose to a cheese you could've held. Scouting really early if your build isn't going to change is dumb, but not scouting AT ALL at a timing to catch silly cheese is setting yourself up for a lot of easy losses.
Say you scout with a marine in tvt, it runs into 3 marines and some scv's, insta-dies. What do you have? Pretty much nothing, you lose the game. You sent out an scv as you start your gas or rax, you catch the proxy, build a bunker, and win the game.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
I think you've misunderstood - the OP is talking about the fact that SjoW doesn't scout with an SCV early on in the game.
Oh. Yeah... Sorry. It's 14:10 and I haven't slept, sorry T_T
He also doesn't appear to scout very actively later on, so feel free to throw a hidden expo against him every game. Does he wall against toss? If not, just proxy 1-2 gate him every game
He doesn't never scout. When he's going a strong timing push type of build, which he's one of the best at, he doesn't scout early on. If he nows he's vulnerable, like fast expanding, he scouts. Pretty solid imo, even though I always scout
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line?
I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on....
it seems to be working quite fine for him so far, he won like every recent tournament he played, won the last 6 craft cups he played in so either people dont take advantage of his non scv scouting or they try and he still beats them regardles
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line?
I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on....
actually at first i got the honest impression that that was what the thread was about. sounds crazy, but i've seen enough threads that make me go "WHAT?" to believe it.
i do recall having watched sjows games where he will, for instance, scout with a hellion or something, but OP makes no mention of that. he simply asks if not scouting is the future, which is obviously never going to happen for reasons already stated.
On December 14 2010 22:02 Numy wrote: I think Sjow has tons of bad habits that people shouldn't really emulate. He is a really solid player though but think if he got rid of those habits he would be far better.
His lack of scouting isn't a "bad habit", he deliberately does it because he has a reason. There are so many players who don't know why scouting is important yet they do it anyway simply because everyone tells them to. Scouting/non-scouting isn't the issue here, it's really why you play the way you play, SjoW has his own style and it's worked very well for him thus far. He's beaten so many top names with relative ease and if he believes non-scouting is the way to go for him, so be it. Keep in mind he develops his own builds, he puts a lot of thought into what he does. Many people just blindly do what they see in replays or see on a strategy forum without understanding why the build works.
However, does this mean that players shouldn't scout? absolutely not, scouting hands down is one of the most vital aspects of the game. However if you're at a level where you can sack an aspect of the game to improve another aspect, then that's on you. For 95% of the people on TL here, scouting is a necessity.
I didn't mean his lack of early scouting is a bad habit. There are other things he does that people shouldn't really try copy. Like his massive queuing mid-late game and his lack of army hotkeys , just to name a few. His style works for him, doesn't mean it will work for others.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting.
On December 14 2010 22:08 xzidez wrote:
On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote:
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line?
I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on....
actually at first i got the honest impression that that was what the thread was about. sounds crazy, but i've seen enough threads that make me go "WHAT?" to believe it.
i do recall having watched sjows games where he will, for instance, scout with a hellion or something, but OP makes no mention of that. he simply asks if not scouting is the future, which is obviously never going to happen for reasons already stated.
Op:
Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play?
Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows?
he asks if SJOW's style of no scouting (which means lack of the first scv scout we're accustomed to seeing) will become the way of the future, not what you said.
Just throwing that out there, I remember SjoW explaining this himself saying that he chooses not to scout because he prefers having solid builds able to hold anything rather than rely on scouting hurting his economy, especially when scouting is most of the time not telling much beside if the opponent is cheesing or not, and if your build is good you'll be able to hold it anyway, which joins what Nazgul was saying.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
But you lose so little from it, it just seems stupid not to do something like that if it won't cost you anything. Like there's a lot of important things to see even if you can't adapt your BO. If I'm playing vP, for example, I wanna see where he places his early pylons to know roughly where to scan. Also if I don't see a second pylon in base I know Protoss is proxying something, which can make or break a lot of games. And again, all it costs me is an scv that I can save and place at a watchtower later on, or just send back to my base before it dies
50-100 minerals early game is not "so little." Those minerals grow exponentially. And scans obviously mean foregoing the 270 minerals that a MULE provides (without taking up mineral space from SCVs, too). The APM and attention of scouting, keeping your worker alive, etc., etc. Just because the metagame has evolved assuming early worker scouts doesn't mean that it doesn't cost anything.
In tournament situations, knowing that you're not going to scout and simply doing the build that you've specifically prepared can also prevent you from abandoning your game plan in a fit of nerves just because the guy's barracks is in a weird spot.
I remember a (BW) game with Flash vs Free on Grandline where he literally did not scout at all until like 10 minutes into the game when he scanned to find out where his opponent was before pushing out from 2 bases. XD
I do not think it's wise to not scout with a worker in general though. The benefit of not doing it is so small that I don't think it's worth it.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
But you lose so little from it, it just seems stupid not to do something like that if it won't cost you anything. Like there's a lot of important things to see even if you can't adapt your BO. If I'm playing vP, for example, I wanna see where he places his early pylons to know roughly where to scan. Also if I don't see a second pylon in base I know Protoss is proxying something, which can make or break a lot of games. And again, all it costs me is an scv that I can save and place at a watchtower later on, or just send back to my base before it dies
step 1: Load up a replay where you scout with your scv and then brings it back to base. Take the totalt time it takes.
step 2: Start a custom game. Remove all svcs except one. Mine for the the ammount of time you got in step 1.
step 3: Look at your minerals and think about all stuffs you can convert it into. Then try to convice yourself again that you lose "so little".
Since your mineralline aint saturated during the time you scout. This is roughly accurate.
Edit: Think about this next time you lose a battle where there is like 2 zealots left wrecking havoc on your expansion.
the conclusion of this thread is that the game has reached a level where almost everything is just standard and there are no surprising strategies that can really get you and thats pretty sad in my opinion
and yet one of the best EU terrans. How can you not like the guy?!
Many people I watch playing just scout because they are taught "they should". you can really see this in many streams where people don't change BO at all after scouting. They just go on like they planned to.
It's like one of those things that gives the feeling of safety, when you see what your opponent is up to. But if you are not gonna change a BO you have decided for i see no reason you should scout.
On December 14 2010 22:27 cArn- wrote: Just throwing that out there, I remember SjoW explaining this himself saying that he chooses not to scout because he prefers having solid builds able to hold anything rather than rely on scouting hurting his economy, especially when scouting is most of the time not telling much beside if the opponent is cheesing or not, and if your build is good you'll be able to hold it anyway, which joins what Nazgul was saying.
its not as small a gain to keep an extra worker early as some of you might think. It can really add up. I think its a good idea to always scout because it clears your head, although some games i scout very late because no matter what i see, i probably wouldn't change the build very much. But i believe it is important to scout eventually, and not wait too long, because even if you wouldn't change ur build at all if you scouted a push, youd at least be better prepared for it mentally, and thats always comforting.
It's mostly viable due to the fact that terran has really strong defensive capabilities throughout the game. I think his builds are designed in a fashion that shuts down a lot of common stuff you'd normally want to scout as well. No probe scout PvT for example would never work.
And I'm starting to think the concept of 'cheese' doesn't quite apply to sc2, because frankly we see cheese getting carried out very effectively despite getting scouted all the time. Defenders advantage doesn't exist in sc2 and most 'cheese' relies on getting out sheer amount of fire power as early as it is virtually possible and so is impossible to prevent unless you went for a build that already counters it.
On December 14 2010 22:53 papaz wrote: - He has low apm - He doesn't scout
and yet one of the best EU terrans. How can you not like the guy?!
Many people I watch playing just scout because they are taught "they should". you can really see this in many streams where people don't change BO at all after scouting. They just go on like they planned to.
It's like one of those things that gives the feeling of safety, when you see what your opponent is up to. But if you are not gonna change a BO you have decided for i see no reason you should scout.
If he manages to get his mechanics on par with his amazing strategics, decision making and game sense SjoW is going to be such a fucking beast. :O
On December 14 2010 22:53 papaz wrote: - He has low apm - He doesn't scout
and yet one of the best EU terrans. How can you not like the guy?!
Many people I watch playing just scout because they are taught "they should". you can really see this in many streams where people don't change BO at all after scouting. They just go on like they planned to.
It's like one of those things that gives the feeling of safety, when you see what your opponent is up to. But if you are not gonna change a BO you have decided for i see no reason you should scout.
I don't really understand your point about not changing your BO.
For example its TvT, I scout and see 12 rax 13 gas, completely standard so I don't change my BO. Makes sense. However if I had scouted no gases taken at 14 supply then I will adjust. Scouting just gives you more information to change your BO if you want, if you scout them playing standard which your BO is your general response to, then why would you change your BO? Basically scouting is what will tell you if you want to change your BO... If you won't adjust no matter what they're doing then ye you shouldn't scout, but you don't always want to adjust.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting.
On December 14 2010 22:08 xzidez wrote:
On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote:
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line?
I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on....
actually at first i got the honest impression that that was what the thread was about. sounds crazy, but i've seen enough threads that make me go "WHAT?" to believe it.
i do recall having watched sjows games where he will, for instance, scout with a hellion or something, but OP makes no mention of that. he simply asks if not scouting is the future, which is obviously never going to happen for reasons already stated.
Op:
Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play?
Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows?
he asks if SJOW's style of no scouting (which means lack of the first scv scout we're accustomed to seeing) will become the way of the future, not what you said.
edit: lawl op corrected himself, which is what i had an issue with, making this post redundant
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing.
Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info.
I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest.
No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong?
I only scout on positions really late and expo timings for p and 1 rax fe T. I dont think scouting gives you alot of intel anyway, use the first helion to scout arround for proxy stargate locations and your fine imo,
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing.
Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info.
I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest.
No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong?
The point is it's entirely situational. For example, certain builds are aimed at investing in army early on regardless of what your opponent is doing for the purpose of harassment or whatever. In some situations the loss of income won't ever be made up for by any scouting information you might gain. In some games a small number of builds might straight up hard counter you and so trying to find out about them is rather futile.
Oh and people need to actually watch SjoW play before speaking out. He does in fact marine scout most of his games, it's just a matter of him scouting at a timing where he finds the information is more relevant. That said if he was noticing something like a large increase in the number of proxy gates or whatever he's facing, chances are he'd start changing things up.
Scouting is important, but against good players early worker scouting is generally useless. For example, no one is going to take a second gas while their opponent can still scout it.
Terrans almost always open up depot, rax, refinery and then kick the scout out with a marine. You don't learn anything.
Protoss almost always open up pylon, gateway, cyber and then kick the scout out with a stalker. You don't learn anything.
Zerg are the only ones really worth scouting and that's only to see if they went hatch, pool, or gas first. Or maybe doing an early rush.
Pretty much the only thing you get out of early worker scouting is finding proxy locations or crappy cheese play. The important kind of scouting to be done is finding out their tech path. This kind of scouting people often fail to do, because it is harder than just sending a worker.
It's not just about scouting their possible BO, you also have to know where they are. Besides that, against zerg blocking the expansion with your scouting scv can make up for the lost mining time
He sticks to a certain build that he planned no matter what, scouting is reuired only if you plan to change your build based on what you see your opponent doing. He does not modify his build until later when he can scan the other base and therefore doesn't really have to scout early with scv. He obviously feels comfortable enough with his builds that he can hold off any cheese.
I was watching Sjow's stream like a hawk and, of course, wanted to be like my boy Sjow. So it was TvP, Steppes of War. I didn't scout cause, like Sjow, I am a boss. I got proxy 2gated and lost.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing.
Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info.
I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest.
No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong?
At the start of the game all that is going to get scouted is either cheese or a standard build really, very rarely anything else. Sjow is confident about stopping cheese if it comes so I'd imagine that's one reason why he doesn't see any value of SCV scouting. If you watch him he always marine scouts so he will catch any FE builds when he scouts then.
His decision making is the thing that keeps him so good, he knows exactly what he needs to do at all times. You don't understand the game the way Sjow does like Nazgul said.
Because my play is so heavily based on what I scout (I'm a 99% reactionary macro player, I almost never take the initiative unless I think I have an advantage due to something that happened prior) I have a hard time understanding how one can possibly play with no scouting at all.
However, if I had a build that I thought was good versus cheese, standard play and what not without much adaption, then obviously there is no reason to scout. Only question remains, is there such a build.
If one player out of 1000 top players doesn't scout its probably not a good idea to try to copy him. Theres so many BO wins in this game that it makes absolutely no sense not to at least try to scout.
Most of us are nowhere near Sjow's level, but I still genuinely think he needs to at least scout for proxies, everything else he can usually figure out based on the in-game timer (especially in ladder matches). Also if his build is inflexible, it doesn't really matter that much what his opponent is making at the start.
Ye scouting is overrated. I don't scout when I do any early pressure builds since it counters any sort of cheese, and once I hit them with the pressure, I know exactly what they're going, and exactly what I forced them into.
He generally doesn't scout with an SCV but with a marine or a Hellion from what I have seen but if its working for him who am I to criticize I think his lack of Hotkeys bothers me so much more than lack of early scouting
Sjow scouts plenty. Thing is, if you have a standardized build that doesn't change at all with early scouting and is somewhat resistant to cheese, what's the point sending an early SCV to its death? This player has obviously decided that the information he gathers scouting before his scouting marine / reaper / hellion is worthless, and thus doesn't do it.
Sjow scouts. A lot. But he doesn't randomly throw away units to overscout like many players do.
From what I've seen from his stream, he scouts by aggresion. When I watched him play against a zerg he would constantly send hellions for harrasing, and get to know the army composition by those hellions.
On top of that you can ask yourself how necessary is scouting when you basically open up with 1-1-1 or atleast a barracks/factory build most games (which he seems to do). I suppose he could get 6 pooled, other then that sending the initial scouting scv barely has any use. Hellions allow you to cost effectively defend vs zealots/slowlings (especially with how he pulls his hellions behind his mineral line and lets his scv tank zerglings for the hellions to kill them, pretty neat trick).
Terran also has the advantage of a scan for detection, you don't need to go down a certain tech path (robo) or 'rush' for lair tech to avoid being killed by cloaked units (DT/Banshee).
Also some people in this thread seem to think it's impossible to come back from the part where your opponent finishes a building without you scouting for it. For example: say you open with hellion/marines as terran, and your opponent gets roaches. Yes both your units are now 'countered' by one unit of his, but it's not like he can instantly walk to your base and go kill you. Marines actually do pretty decent against roaches, and with a bunker you can definitly hold off. And if you play aggresive and scout the first few roaches destroying one of your harrasing units/holding of your attack, you can easily prepare by throwing up a tech lab on a factory/barracks and start producing tanks/marauders.
Recently I watched alot of Sjow stream. While he play w/o scout and stick to his build no matter what. Its not a good style.
He can win games with it, but if he scouted in many of his games he would have won more.
He can get away w/o scout is because: 1. When laddering at top you tend to play an opponent over and over again, you know all of his tactics, his habit...so no scout is kind of ok. 2. EU server is quite standard somehow. People don't cheese or allin that much.
Don't try to copy him, cos no scout is bad, very bad.
For those that are saying people should just cheese him every game:
1. Sjow once commented that the reason he doesn't scout early in the game is that it does not help at all. "Cheese is going to be hard to stop whether or not I see it."
2. What happens when Sjow uses the metagame of not scouting to randomly scout you? You might've just lost $$$ going for a cheese.
3. Many cheese or all in builds can be held without scouting, including proxy 2 gate.
4. If a top tier player with a long list of tournament wins thinks he can hold your all in or cheese without scouting, do you have the balls to try to prove him wrong?
Perhaps there is not enough cheese at his still level and it's not worth it, but ANY OTHER skill level you'll get cheesed quite often so the 50-100 mineral lost (pull worker to scout see if everything is normal and go right back to mining) isn't significant at all.
This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all.
Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol
Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not.
On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote: This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all.
Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol
Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not.
Good to see a high level player speak out against this. ^__^
Incontrol with the "he has low APM and is Terran therefore he is probably terrible" line of thought. If you'd watch his stream his calculated APM is low because he doesn't spam very much or cycle his hotkeys simply for the APM metric and e-peen measuring contest. In battle and when the need arises his actions spike quite quickly.
Although I also don't agree with the idea of not scouting to save money because I feel the early game knowledge is worth far more than one SCV mining I wouldn't try calling Sjow's skills into question
Inc's post doesn't make much sense to me. I never bother sending an SCV scout to toss because I open with 2 rax pressure every game and use that to feel out toss's build. The extra bit of minerals helps in the early stages of this build, and if I were to just send an scv well toss is gonna get a stalker or sentry anyways before revealing his tech patterns if he so chooses.
As far as using an scv to check for an FE that's just retarded early when I could send units instead. I open with 2 rax in tvz too but I send an scv ahead of marines to use it for blocking. No need to send it in way ahead. In tvt as has been said there's really no need for an scv scout if you play a safe build and don't rush for addons.
I think it's rather on the disrespectful to call it "fucking terrible" when the person doing it has 80apm and somehow manages to win more tournaments than anyone out there. He may not be the best in the world but to win as much as he does he clearly must understand the game really well. Most likely better than most 250apm perfect macro good micro top players that get everyones respect but win a lot less.
There is definitely a lot more to it and there's a lot of builds that benefit from it. For example if you're Terran your scouting SCV should never find a stargate against a decent Protoss and thus your early scout scv should give you zero info regarding void rays. However if instead of scouting early you scout later but build your factory in a position where you can float it over his base to see all that he is doing you will have saved minerals and know everything you need to know at the time you can know about it. This could be done with a build that is safe vs 4 gate allin for example, instead of a build that needs adjustment against a 4 gate allin.
It's worth to mention that what you don't see can give you a lot of information as well.
For example. if an attack hasn't happened at whatever timing a 6pool should come then he's not 6pooling.
It's a bad strat-example but I've hardly played sc2 compared to bw so if someone can give a more rewarding strategy-example to why this works please do
If he doesn't ever scout, he's a fool and will never get far in major tournaments like GSL. Seriously, if I was a half-decent player, I would just cheese or go for a build that hinges on not being scouted. 100% win rate.
So no, it's not overlooked.
Edit: And, if the idea of now scouting doesn't already sound idiotic, look at every other pro. Sjow isn't top 10 in the world. He might be top ~500. None of those other players (except for the cheesers) don't scout. So would you rather emulate Sjow or Fruitdealer/Nestea/MC/IdrA/Jinro/everyothergoodplayer?
On December 15 2010 00:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think it's rather on the disrespectful to call it "fucking terrible" when the person doing it has 80apm and somehow manages to win more tournaments than anyone out there. He may not be the best in the world but to win as much as he does he clearly must understand the game really well. Most likely better than most 250apm perfect macro good micro top players that get everyones respect but win a lot less.
There is definitely a lot more to it and there's a lot of builds that benefit from it. For example if you're Terran your scouting SCV should never find a stargate against a decent Protoss and thus your early scout scv should give you zero info regarding void rays. However if instead of scouting early you scout later but build your factory in a position where you can float it over his base to see all that he is doing you will have saved minerals and know everything you need to know at the time you can know about it. This could be done with a build that is safe vs 4 gate allin for example, instead of a build that needs adjustment against a 4 gate allin.
Add to this the fact that early scouting information is often misinterpreted or could be cleverly deceptive.
I highly doubt he simply "doesn't scout" - just because it's not a worker doesn't mean it isn't a scout. Most players aren't going to scout with a worker beyond their first worker scout, does that mean they stop scouting at 11 supply?
What he's actually doing is delaying his "scout" until a time where the information he gains would be meaningful enough that he would change what he is doing to respond to it. The fact that he's doing that scouting with a unit that isn't a worker doesn't invalidate it.
Ultimately though, if scouting is never bad, so why not worker scout with one of your initial 6?
I use his TvT opening (1Rax -> Marines -> Factory -> Helion Scout...) in my games and I never lost a game where my initial scouting scv would have helped me. I cant argue on vP and vZ but on TvT i think its not necessary to scout with your starting scv if you do this build.
And what Nazgul said is also very true. If you get cheesed with a hidden X your initial scv shouldnt find it or you opponent is just bad.
Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
On December 15 2010 00:18 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Oh ok scouting is bad. Everyone here please take note and start applying this. I wont but i would appreciate it if you guys would.
This is where you go wrong incontrol. You first made a brilliant post describing why you should do it, but now that not everyone is agreeing you take it 1 step too far. This post makes the first post a lot less "good" (sorry for not thinking of a better word). Just let them think they figured out the game by not sending the scout, you explained it perfectly why it is important to do.
It's disrespectful to criticize bad play? His accomplishments are almost completely irrelevant to the discussion. I've to say I find it disappointing when someone like Nazgul just dances around the subject rather than says what he really thinks, unless, of course, he really thinks not scouting is good.
On December 14 2010 22:19 cilinder007 wrote: it seems to be working quite fine for him so far, he won like every recent tournament he played, won the last 6 craft cups he played in so either people dont take advantage of his non scv scouting or they try and he still beats them regardles
Because he does not face cheesy very often. But he kind of instaloses vs 6 pool or proxy gates.
Anyway I still believe scannin is way overused, and when the meta games evolves, to hide tech more and only show a part of your army which that becoems aviavlabe to scan, scans will not be worth a mule for most of the early/early midgame. I realize that right now scans are cost effective, as people dont hide tech/hide units enough, but I dont wanna rely on builds that are based on my opp prob. not doing x or x. I wanna use build that have long-term potential.
I love how all your posts are hyperboles iNcontroL (see what I did there? ). It makes for fun reading.
It's not that SjoW doesn't scout at all, he just doesn't do the 10-11-12 food SVC scout. There are positives and negatives with not doing that. It apparently works for him, it doesn't mean it is the right thing to do and he has the game figured out though.
I like to scout because I use the information to change my build around to favor me. But like others have said; people scout just because others tell them to scout so all they do is bring their worker to their opponent's base and move around and leave and don't change their build at all. If you aren't going to change your build at all, what's the point of early scouting when you can scout later with a hallucination/observer/hellion/overlord?
I think people need to ask themselves if they are willing to change their build according to the information they gain from early scouting.
On December 15 2010 00:12 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I think it's rather on the disrespectful to call it "fucking terrible" when the person doing it has 80apm and somehow manages to win more tournaments than anyone out there. He may not be the best in the world but to win as much as he does he clearly must understand the game really well. Most likely better than most 250apm perfect macro good micro top players that get everyones respect but win a lot less.
There is definitely a lot more to it and there's a lot of builds that benefit from it. For example if you're Terran your scouting SCV should never find a stargate against a decent Protoss and thus your early scout scv should give you zero info regarding void rays. However if instead of scouting early you scout later but build your factory in a position where you can float it over his base to see all that he is doing you will have saved minerals and know everything you need to know at the time you can know about it. This could be done with a build that is safe vs 4 gate allin for example, instead of a build that needs adjustment against a 4 gate allin.
¨ Actually this is not entirely true, as you can gain info by seeing when he takes his second gas making it likely that he is doing vr og dt build.
When I started watching his replays I was left scratching my head trying to figure out why he never scouted. Coming from WC3 I never really needed to scout, most mu builds were predictable so I scouted far less in that than I had been in SC2 since I didn't play SC1 much at all. The more replays of Sjow I watched the more it made sense and I've made changes to my scouting in ladder to experiment. I went to the other extreme of not scouting enough and kept getting smashed so I picked the frequency up some, watched an absolute load of replays including my own, came up with general timings for what my opponent might be doing and realised why his openings/scouting patterns are as effective as they are.
Even knowing he doesn't scout, the frequency of proxy/all-in play is limited because if held off, it leaves you very vulnerable to counter-attack, or in the case of the all-in, the game is generally over. I agree with the menatlity of who cares if you lose to an all-in, unless in tournament play where he only has the BOX games to win. When I get rolled by all-ins I just GG and leave, I don't even waste my time trying to hold it off most of the time because it's a waste of my time in ladder where it simply doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
I believe some people (*Glares at Geoff*) hasnt watched enough of his play to quite realise what they're talking about. For the sake of God, of course he scouts. He uses scan and different kinds of units (Helions, Repears) as scouts just like everyone else. What he doesnt do though (Or atleast very rarily) is to scout with an initial SCV.
I wish we could get SjoW in here to clear up some misunderstandings
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing.
Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info.
I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest.
No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong?
what the fuck...? bullshit? read the op and nazgul's post again, cus ur obviously missing the point. sjow does scout obviously. Everyone is talking about how he doesnt do the initial scv scout. he scouts later with either a helion or reaper a minute or two later. i've seen people try to cheese him and he either stops it with his BO, micro+buidling placement or with his micro + scvs.
On December 15 2010 00:27 LittleeD wrote: I wish we could get SjoW in here to clear up some misunderstandings
Hasn't he already said somewhere (can't remember where) that he doesn't scout early game because it's not going to change his opening regardless even if he sees an imminent all-in or proxy for example?
Obviously the guy is a good player, so we need to just stick a pin in that and leave it on the side. He wins a lot and has a style.
I see this as sort of a 2 fold type thing.
You should scout, that is really the end of the story in 99.9% of the cases(For example I have an Sling build I do from time to time when I just want a short game and I don't scout because I'm doing it regardless of what the opponent does. It either works or it doesn't). I just feel like with this particular player the reason the no scouting thing works for him is more because everyone knows he doesn't scout.
Just feel like when you are playing him it can mess with you because you know he isn't going to scout, so should you cheese? Should you just play standard? And on top of it you know going into the game he is going to have a very crisp build because he has his plan the minute the game starts it won't change based on what you do. So I think there is almost a mind game because the player is known and that CAN at times work out. However most players don't have that reputation so you aren't going to have some weird advantage going into the game.
I just think I've seen times when players have lost to him because they know he doesn't scout and they try to do a play to take advantage of that, but it isn't something they normally do(like a cheese play) and it actually works against them.
But to make a comment like "will this become the standard" is just crazy. Obviously this isn't anything standard, shouldn't be the standard, and won't become the standard. This just happens to be a rare circumstance that works for this particular player and his style, but really shouldn't be copied.
On December 15 2010 00:23 syllogism wrote: It's disrespectful to criticize bad play? His accomplishments are almost completely irrelevant to the discussion. I've to say I find it disappointing when someone like Nazgul just dances around the subject rather than says what he really thinks, unless, of course, he really thinks not scouting is good.
I've clearly said that if you take all the top level tournament games that there's tons of players in there picking build orders that they aren't going to adjust no matter what they see. All of those guys should not be scouting as early as they are. These guys scouting early with build orders they don't intend on adjusting based on what they see is bad. Sjow picking a build he does not intend on adjusting and thus not scouting is something that can be good if the builds are properly designed for it.
However because it is commonly accepted to scout as early as possible and as much as possible nobody is able to look beyond scouting as much as possible anymore. People need to go back to understanding why they are scouting instead of just doing it for the hell of it.
I'm talking about early game scout people. Read my posts please. This is why it's being considered to have a forum where people read what top gamers say and not be allowed to interact. It's actually impossible to post without 30 people being dumb about it. I'm not saying he never fucking scans or doesn't use a hellion to check the god damn towers I'm talking about a guy who never knows if he is getting proxied or facing a 1 gas p or a 6 pool.
On December 15 2010 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I've clearly said that if you take all the top level tournament games that there's tons of players in there picking build orders that they aren't going to adjust no matter what they see. All of those guys should not be scouting as early as they are. These guys scouting early with build orders they don't intend on adjusting based on what they see is bad. Sjow picking a build he does not intend on adjusting and thus not scouting is something that can be good if the builds are properly designed for it.
However because it is commonly accepted to scout as early as possible and as much as possible nobody is able to look beyond scouting as much as possible anymore. People need to go back to understanding why they are scouting instead of just doing it for the hell of it.
Like Day9 said in one daily (in response to a viewer question on scouting) if you don't know what you're looking for, or can't interpret what you see, don't bother scouting because you're simply wasting your gathering time/units.
There are still clearly cases where drone scouting is unnecessary. For example ZvZ almost never has drone scouting because your build wouldn't change even with the drone scout. If you are going for early hatch, you're committed to it anyways because by time you drone scout you'll have the hatch down. If you are going for a normal pool time you're committed to that and safe vs any early pool anyways. If you're going for an early pool well you get the idea.
So drone scouting is generally not worthwhile in ZvZ, the important information comes after lings are out people scout with lings (and do some spotting with OLs of course). I don't think many people would argue that this is definitively bad, or at least we don't know yet if there is a 100% need for drone scouting in ZvZ and the current games seems to suggest there isn't and that it's better not to drone scout.
Given that it's clear there's a case for not drone scouting in some situations. Maybe ZvZ is the ONLY situation, but maybe it isn't. Either way we have a precedence that not drone scouting isn't full out terrible and there may be other reasons you don't do it.
Again naz is arguing that people are not understanding what/why they are scouting when in fact what we are discussing is why it's bad to not scout at all in the early game. There are builds that are GOOD vs almost everything but what build wouldn't benefit from his amazing understanding of the game PLUS some early info? How is it we are sitting here acting like every osl / msl champion ever didn't early game scout? All the t's btw... That are better than him... Early game scout.
If there is a build that works safely against all openings which doesn't need deviation, then I'll stop scouting. Until then, I'll continiue to send my 9th drone at my opponent and not die to early cheese.
People who are pro-not scouting don't face a lot of cheese or aren't zerg players. Information is everything.
you can check your base on proxies with smart building placement, and take a small peak on your natural for off gates. Really if you open 1/1/1 you dont need to scout early game the helion comes intime to see anything you want to see and if you make a single bunker after your starport your basicly totaly save 90% of protoss chees builds (chees builds you wont ever scout with a scv anyway) except mb 3 gate/voidray all in when he waits till he has 2 rays before attacking. I talked with sjow at dreamhack and I think demu aswell, you can basicly tell what build protoss does on the expo timing of his natural expo.
I think SjoW is a really great player, but he has some really bad habbits. Not scouting is never beneficial. You lose mining time of 1 SCV to scout whether someone is going 6 pool or triple FE, isnt that worth the maybe 100 minerals you lose by scouting with that SCV?
I mean i get that he might not change his build that much, but i dont think he can just do the same build over and over without caring what his opponent does. If that was true then why wouldnt everyone be doing that build? There really is no reason not to scout.
Also, SjoW clicks alot. He clicks cloak and siege which slows him down. There is also nothing beneficial about this, it's just a stupid thing to do.
It's amazing that SjoW is so good and yet he does these sorts of things.
On December 15 2010 00:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I'm talking about early game scout people. Read my posts please. This is why it's being considered to have a forum where people read what top gamers say and not be allowed to interact. It's actually impossible to post without 30 people being dumb about it. I'm not saying he never fucking scans or doesn't use a hellion to check the god damn towers I'm talking about a guy who never knows if he is getting proxied or facing a 1 gas p or a 6 pool.
Maybe the argument some are trying to get across (and failing to properly communicate) is even with early scouting, how many adequately prepare for the inevitable based on their intel? Take GSL3 for example. There have been so many games where even the potential for an early all-in push, or proxy build, was at least probable based on what their intial scout saw and they didn't do enough with that information. Yes there were some situations where it didn't matter if they saw it or not because their opening left them completely vulnerable/unprepared, but there were cases where anything would have been better than nothing, so that initial scout was nothing but wasted gathering time. If that's occurring in GSL3 then the general SC2 population definitely isn't going to react accordingly in all situations since the pros are pros for a reason .
I agree there are perks to sending out that first early scout to look for potential all-ins/rushes/proxies, no doubt about that, but I can also see the perks of going with say a first Hellion scout if you don't intend to change your opening regardless. It's always a trade-off so I don't think either option is wrong, but each has their pros and cons.
I've been watching this guy's stream and i actually don't mind the lack of scouting in the early game. He seems to have enough game sense to know what the opponent could be doing and react accordingly. Maybe he could be a little more proactive in scouting during mid game and onwards but again his game sense seems to make up for it.
On December 15 2010 00:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Again naz is arguing that people are not understanding what/why they are scouting when in fact what we are discussing is why it's bad to not scout at all in the early game. There are builds that are GOOD vs almost everything but what build wouldn't benefit from his amazing understanding of the game PLUS some early info? How is it we are sitting here acting like every osl / msl champion ever didn't early game scout? All the t's btw... That are better than him... Early game scout.
Different games..
I think it might not be AS big of a deal (obviously circumstantial) as people make it out to be. It's pretty hard to pin point why SjoW is such a successful player seeing as his macro is subpar, micro good but nothing special and he even refrains from scouting early game. I think the key thing is solid builds. Beyond that he has a tendency to invest in army, mainly for poking/harassing, at an early point in the game which means he's less vulnerable to unscouted aggression.
The thing about "cheese" in sc2 is it's typically just about getting out a shit ton of units at a time where your opponent expects you to have less capability for offense (4gate, 3rax, VR, roach breaks etc, etc) and so it isn't countered by anyone seeing it 1 minute prior to the attack and then saying "oh okay I need to get more production structures and get out a ton of units and that way I'ma counter his cheese." Solid builds is the way you hold that off. Besides, a timed reaper scout or whatever is bound to find out a hell of a lot more than the mandatory super-predictable 10 scv.
I just love how people completely bash one of the best EU Terrans for doing something out of the ordinary, rather than thinking to themselves: "Why would he do that? There must be a damn good reason for him doing something that much out of the ordinary."
Again, he's one of the best EU players. He has an amazing win-percentage and won a lot of tournaments. I'm pretty sure he's not just being lazy.
On December 15 2010 00:18 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Oh ok scouting is bad. Everyone here please take note and start applying this. I wont but i would appreciate it if you guys would.
No.
Proper scouting is good. Wasted scouting is bad.
The question then becomes what is "proper scouting" and is Sjow doing it or not. And that's the debate you should have.
Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel. Again; early scouting depends on your build and your intentions to adjust yes/no, your race, the map and probably a bunch of other factors as well.
On December 15 2010 00:34 Logo wrote: There are still clearly cases where drone scouting is unnecessary. For example ZvZ almost never has drone scouting because your build wouldn't change even with the drone scout. If you are going for early hatch, you're committed to it anyways because by time you drone scout you'll have the hatch down. If you are going for a normal pool time you're committed to that and safe vs any early pool anyways. If you're going for an early pool well you get the idea.
So drone scouting is generally not worthwhile in ZvZ, the important information comes after lings are out people scout with lings (and do some spotting with OLs of course). I don't think many people would argue that this is definitively bad, or at least we don't know yet if there is a 100% need for drone scouting in ZvZ and the current games seems to suggest there isn't and that it's better not to drone scout.
Given that it's clear there's a case for not drone scouting in some situations. Maybe ZvZ is the ONLY situation, but maybe it isn't. Either way we have a precedence that not drone scouting isn't full out terrible and there may be other reasons you don't do it.
I was being very careful talking about T scouting because I play zerg, but this is wrong on so many levels. The only time when you can afford not to scout is a baneling opening, even if you want to go roach you have to know what he is doing. Throwing a roach den down and gas means 2 drones less and less lings vs a 6/7 pool. These little things can mean game over.
It's true you are committed to your hatch, but the pool timing is important. If you see him early pooling you need to get it asap, you can get it like 3 drones(!!) later when he is expanding himself. These differences are huge. And then you need to know if he is making lings, drones or if he is going to expand himself.
Early scout is very very important in ZvZ.
On the scv scouting, if you read Incontrol posts it should be 120% clear why you need to do it.
Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel.
Oh come on, this has to be the worst argument EVER. let me start off by saying it is a completely different game. Second, just because he can pull it off doesn't mean it is "good" or anything.
Wait, let me fish up vods and replays of terrans that are about 100 times more accomplished then Sjow. And guess what, they all scv scout.
It does not matter, at all, whether players are using scouting information properly. The mere possibility of utilizing that information in a way that puts you ahead is sufficient to state not scouting is bad. And please, is that video supposed prove a point? Flash almost always scouts, unlike Sjow.
I think a big part of the discussion is about the worth of the scouting scv. If you consider it 0 so it doenst make a diference if you scout or not - sure you should scout. But if you think your scv is worth x and you get 0 usabale information if you scout then you shouldnt scout.
I hope this make some kind of sense with my english :O
On December 15 2010 00:45 UberSquirrel wrote: I just love how people completely bash one of the best EU Terrans for doing something out of the ordinary, rather than thinking to themselves: "Why would he do that? There must be a damn good reason for him doing something that much out of the ordinary."
Again, he's one of the best EU players. He has an amazing win-percentage and won a lot of tournaments. I'm pretty sure he's not just being lazy.
So explain him clicking siege and cloak then. There is NO reason for doing that. It just slows you down.
On December 15 2010 00:45 UberSquirrel wrote: I just love how people completely bash one of the best EU Terrans for doing something out of the ordinary, rather than thinking to themselves: "Why would he do that? There must be a damn good reason for him doing something that much out of the ordinary."
Again, he's one of the best EU players. He has an amazing win-percentage and won a lot of tournaments. I'm pretty sure he's not just being lazy.
So explain him clicking siege and cloak then. There is NO reason for doing that. It just slows you down.
lol, "slows u down" he plays with low apm already, i dont think it matters much to him.
Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel. Again; early scouting depends on your build and your intentions to adjust yes/no, your race, the map and probably a bunch of other factors as well.
That's kinda weird though, that he didn't scout. Not saying that it was a mistake because i think maybe flash knows a little more about the game than me... but usually he scouts earlier.
most modern BW terran pros dont scout early really if they are going to do the build they want to do, its just most SC BW players played the game for years they dont see this anymore. Watch flash games closely he scouts as late as he can (with scv that made the rax) on positions only for the 12 nex. After that only poke in for the expo timing that way you gather all the intel you need. SC2 is a different game and since with 1/1/1 you always get a helion you can use the helion to do this job.
InControl. I noticed you took offense from my comment. I apologize for the glare. I just wanted to point out about what you said that you've seen SjoW lose to VR pushes. Yes, this can happen to the best of us. If the protoss efficiently hides his tech then it can be hard. But this is not an early game cheese. At the very least its mid game (2 void rays to for it be effective) so then its a matter of missed scanning/mid-game scouting.
When it comes to early scout...well I guess he's just confident with the build he has, otherwise im quite sure he'd start scouting. Its not like he doesnt know what early game scouting is, and what advantages/disadvantages it has
My low level opinion and i mean really low level is that early scout is important but not that important! I mean if sjow opts for a later scout and gets away with it, is it because he's a genius and it was a top play? and when he looses is it always because of the late scout?
I mean come on guys.. it's not that black or white..
Imagine this a protoss is going for cheese and it gets spotted will he change his gameplan or stick with it? now imagine the other way around a protoss is going for a macro game and then notices that his opponent is not going to scout, will he change the gameplan and go for a timing push, all-in or cheese or stick with what he planned?
Late scout can mess with your opponnent head.. if you expect something and it doesn't happen, it can bring doubt into your game!
Anyways i think sjow is a very good player and he has many things to improve.. if he does improve he will be a monster!
Well, he obviously know what he's doing. But he does lose to a lot of cheese. Don't understand why people don't cheese him all the time. Just a couple of days ago he lost to a 2gate, had his opponent done the exact same time the second game, he'd won the set.
And really, knowing if, where and when your opponent takes an expo is really worth the extra scv mid-game. I've seen him letting his opponent keep unsafe expos he'd easily could've taken down.
But what do I know, he could very well be aware of it and not care/know something I don't. His style works, so creds to him for it.
On December 15 2010 00:46 Brutus wrote: Oh come on, this has to be the worst argument EVER. let me start off by saying it is a completely different game. Second, just because he can pull it off doesn't mean it is "good" or anything.
Wait, let me fish up vods and replays of terrans that are about 100 times more accomplished then Sjow. And guess what, they all scv scout.
It's disappointing you aren't able to see that the argument in this thread transcends perfectly between the two games.
I'm not showing this video because he can pull it off, I'm showing it because it shows someone with a great RTS mind agreeing it has its uses in certain situations, and thus at the very least people in this thread should give it some more thought. Whether he wins the game or not doesn't matter, just the fact that a top Terran was thinking like this is very relevant to the discussion because it shows us different opinions may be viable.
Inc; What if that very good build cannot be executed if you scout early, this leaves you with the choice between scouting, or executing that very good build correctly?
Obviously we would all agree that it would be bad to scout with one of the very first workers, simply since the the information you gain will be way to costly - and you will gain the exact same information if you had delayed that scout, so the question should probably be WHEN it is bestto scout?
Great, you showed one video of Flash not scouting, for unknown reasons, but he still scouts 99% of the time. Just because there may be a specific build, on a specific map, against a specific player that might benefit from not scouting does not mean Sjow's never ever scout approach to the game is nothing more than poor play.
Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel. Again; early scouting depends on your build and your intentions to adjust yes/no, your race, the map and probably a bunch of other factors as well.
Here's another example.
Flash is so good it's not even funny. ^__^ BUT! Sjow does this literally every single game, Flash almost always scouts with a worker early on and only rarely does stuff like this. If he didn't scout in most games, there's no way he would be anywhere close to being as successful as he is now. People would abuse that lack of scouting so hard. So to have it as a rule of thumb to never worker scout like Sjow has is really not viable in the long run. There is no build that is safe against everything without any adjustment (well, you might do something hyper defensive, but that wouldn't be a very efficient build anyway), so as soon as he gets figured out he's going to have to adapt by employing SCV scouts at least every now and then or I don't think he'll be able to compete in high level tournaments.
On December 15 2010 00:46 Brutus wrote: Oh come on, this has to be the worst argument EVER. let me start off by saying it is a completely different game. Second, just because he can pull it off doesn't mean it is "good" or anything.
Wait, let me fish up vods and replays of terrans that are about 100 times more accomplished then Sjow. And guess what, they all scv scout.
It's disappointing you aren't able to see that the argument in this thread transcends perfectly between the two games.
I'm not showing this video because he can pull it off, I'm showing it because it shows someone with a great RTS mind agreeing it has its uses in certain situations, and thus at the very least people in this thread should give it some more thought. Whether he wins the game or not doesn't matter, just the fact that a top Terran was thinking like this is very relevant to the discussion because it shows us different opinions may be viable.
it doesn't transcends perfectly. BW is a game that is way more figured out, so BO losses and other shenanigans are a lot less common. If you play ladder games there is an absurd amount of BO someone is able to do that DO require a response.
I just haven't seen anyone convincing me that the mining time of 1 scv is less of a strain than being completely in the dark. The information you get from sending that scv is in 99% of the cases worth much more than a little bit of mining time.
What matters here is that he (Sjow) obviously sees a benefit in it that he thinks works well for him. Moreover, every opponent he plays knows he doesn't scout, and has known that for a while now, and can exploit it in any way he wishes, and yet Sjow still manages to do well.
It's wrong to dismiss it as something completely retarded, when there is obviously some thought process and structure behind what he does, and when it obviously produces results. Being a higher APM player who does scout and has less macro bumps than Sjow and still being nowhere nearly as good myself, I would kill to be able to get inside his head and see what's going on there and how he does it.
Anyway, I think that a lot of people are prone to simply accepting BW preconceptions and preconceptions about gameplay in general as Nazgul pointed out. Big part of being good is understanding the game, and when you notice somebody who should by all standards be horrible but isn't, you should probably think twice before dismissing anything he does.
He definitely shouldn't start scouting just to satisfy the mob. If he isn't willing/capable of adapting his play based on what he scouts, he shouldn't scout and if it works for him, good for him. The point what many here are arguing is that if you are capable of using that information, it's more beneficial to scout than not. There may be specific exceptions to this, but overall it should, hopefully, hold true.
I think the issues between Nazgul and Incontrol can only be settled by a grudge match now.
On the scouting-thing I think that it's highly map dependent. To not scout on steppes or meta close pos seems really weird to me, you can easily let's say spot a 4 warpgate rush if toss takes delayed gas. Also, especially on close positions I can't imagine how you can actually do builds that are fully, like 100% independent of what your opponent is doing....as already mentioned, sjow tends to die to stuff like void ray all-ins unnecessarily often.
i'd say for TvZ and TvP it matters less. terran is both very strong early game and can wall very effectively, and so they're immune to a good amount of cheese. if you're going a good, safe build, there's not much of a benefit to scouting a zerg or protoss early since they can't really touch you.
zerg and protoss and terran in TvT, however, should definitely scout early.
The question is : does a 11 scv scout allows to see something useful ? - against zerg : no (your scv will die before scouting anything useful) - against terran : no (same) - against protoss : sometimes...but mostly no. Scv will die before stargate is up and you'll only see one gate core.
So, if you have good scout timings with a reaper and your first helion/marine, I can really understand why someone wouldn't scv-scout. At least, it doesn't seems bad, there are pros and cons.
Hmmm well seems great but you will face someone really good eventually that will abuse it in a tournament situation, like doing super fast and unsafe exps, because you are known to not scout ?
with the depot -> raks update i actually stopped scouting in tvt with my scv. You get marines against banshees and marauders and hellions against marines. Siege tanks are not that delayed, and if you are lucky the other terran tryes to contain you. (where hellion in the enemy base become evil).
Terran was given the luxus to scout late, since their workers lose enough mining time already. When i see a scv arriving while my raks is still building, i know i am ahead. Also i can't really understand why my opponents want to scout my raks building up. Normally I fake something for them like double gas, or 3 raks. And change my build when their worker is gone. Works way to often.
I admit I'm somewhat baffled by the fact pretty much no one attempts to abuse this well known aspect of his play. Especially weaker players should attempt some "cheese" build every time in a tournament.
On December 15 2010 01:11 D10 wrote: Hmmm well seems great but you will face someone really good eventually that will abuse it in a tournament situation, like doing super fast and unsafe exps, because you are known to not scout ?
he scouts with a marine/hellion.. Those are among his first attack units that could possibly attack that fast expand anyways
edit: still cant understand his style though. But whatever works for him
On December 15 2010 01:11 D10 wrote: Hmmm well seems great but you will face someone really good eventually that will abuse it in a tournament situation, like doing super fast and unsafe exps, because you are known to not scout ?
But he will will scout it, just a little time later. Scouting it early doesn't change anything anyway (in your very fast expand case), because you're not in position to punish it even if you scout it very fast.
On December 15 2010 01:11 D10 wrote: Hmmm well seems great but you will face someone really good eventually that will abuse it in a tournament situation, like doing super fast and unsafe exps, because you are known to not scout ?
he scouts with a marine/hellion.. Those are among his first attack units that could possibly attack that fast expand anyways
edit: still cant understand his style though. But whatever works for him
I guess it can work just as good you just need to know exacly where you stand BO wise with the least information possible.
This trait of not scv scouting combined with the very few scans sjow throws is one of the most endearing things I find about him. I am also a 'believer' of the legitimacy of not scouting early. Though I might not agree with the blind build sjow does - it is a little dangerous, as incontrol puts, to void ray rush - I think having a pre-planned build regardless of what your opponent does is fine.
You have less information yes, but how valuable is the info? Is it worth 100 minerals? (The general length of scouting time which you would have gathered by not scouting)
Is it worth 150 minerals + say another 250 minerals by the 10 minute mark? (If you lose your scouting worker, which is commonplace) That's an expansion.
I say this specifically from a terran point of view, by the way, a race in which I believe that it may be possible to hold off cheeses blindly and be competitive with your opponent even if you don't know what they're doing. It may even be a small advantage when the both of you turn out to be doing a 'standard' build. You're up a worker and some minerals, you might kill his worker. And then your opponent throws a scan to put himself further in the hole.
The point is this: scouting is an important decision point. Is the extra (emphasis on EARLY information) information worth what I consider, on average, "150" minerals, at a point in which your build order mostly doesn't deviate? Trump says, for now, no
In other news, imagine how sturdy a build you would get when you trained yourself in this way. You'd eventually (maybe) find a build that was legitimate against everything. Note you do have that leeway of an extra "150" minerals (that's a blind bunker that you could have instead of scouting).
On December 15 2010 01:15 Trump wrote: This trait of not scv scouting combined with the very few scans sjow throws is one of the most endearing things I find about him. I am also a 'believer' of the legitimacy of not scouting early. Though I might not agree with the blind build sjow does - it is a little dangerous, as incontrol puts, to void ray rush - I think having a pre-planned build regardless of what your opponent does is fine.
You have less information yes, but how valuable is the info? Is it worth 100 minerals? (The general length of scouting time which you would have gathered by not scouting)
Is it worth 150 minerals + say another 250 minerals by the 10 minute mark? (If you lose your scouting worker, which is commonplace) That's an expansion.
I say this specifically from a terran point of view, by the way, a race in which I believe that it may be possible to hold off cheeses blindly and be competitive with your opponent even if you don't know what they're doing. It may even be a small advantage when the both of you turn out to be doing a 'standard' build. You're up a worker and some minerals, you might kill his worker. And then your opponent throws a scan to put himself further in the hole.
The point is this: scouting is an important decision point. Is the extra (emphasis on EARLY information) information worth what I consider, on average, "150" minerals, at a point in which your build order mostly doesn't deviate? Trump says, for now, no
In other news, imagine how sturdy a build you would get when you trained yourself in this way. You'd eventually (maybe) find a build that was legitimate against everything. Note you do have that leeway of an extra "150" minerals (that's a blind bunker that you could have instead of scouting).
Checked the author halfway through and reread it in Trump voice.
On December 15 2010 00:49 imyzhang wrote: lol, "slows u down" he plays with low apm already, i dont think it matters much to him.
Other way around.. the slower you are the more it matters to use proper hotkeys. You have to be a lot more effective.
think u mean efficient as opposed to effective, and i completely agree with what you're saying. but i just mean, to sjow, he probably doesnt care much personally in regards to clicking on icons for the few researches that he chooses.
On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote: This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all.
You should think a bit more before showing such a disrespect.
SjoW scouts with fast Hellion while doing 1-1-1 in a way it doesnt die to 3rax/vr. I watch his stream pretty offten and I havent seen a single game early scouting scv wouldve saved his ass. By the time this scv sees something important its either too late to react or his build is already designed to deal with it.
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
I don't actually think that matters. It all depends on the situation and Sjow puts himself in different situations than other players do which allows him to play like this. I tried to post the VOD to show that these situations do exist, not that they should be standard. For many players it may only be worth it 1/50 times, where it is worth it 49/50 for another. If Sjow has adjusted his style to his type of scouting then that will be different from the next 50 players who haven't.
On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote: Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
And to back up my statement: I've seen him get caught off guard by mutalisks and other sneak attacks... That can easily be avoided by having better map awareness. Furthermore, nydus worms become a huge pain in the ass unless you have good awareness. And really, if you're floating on 2000 like he often is, you can afford that.
Lol, this is just stupid.
With a late scout people mean that he starts scouting with his first hellion rather than sending an SCV earlier on. Mutalisks and nydus worms come way later and there's no way you're going to scout them with your initial worker scout. Lack of scouting later in the game is not what the OP means to discuss.
Overall I think not scouting early against Protoss and Zerg is ok when you wall in by default. SjoW mostly uses the same build over and over and it is pretty solid against most early game antics that Protoss and Zerg can throw at a Terran.
On December 15 2010 01:20 gogogadgetflow wrote: + Show Spoiler +
On December 15 2010 01:15 Trump wrote: This trait of not scv scouting combined with the very few scans sjow throws is one of the most endearing things I find about him. I am also a 'believer' of the legitimacy of not scouting early. Though I might not agree with the blind build sjow does - it is a little dangerous, as incontrol puts, to void ray rush - I think having a pre-planned build regardless of what your opponent does is fine.
You have less information yes, but how valuable is the info? Is it worth 100 minerals? (The general length of scouting time which you would have gathered by not scouting)
Is it worth 150 minerals + say another 250 minerals by the 10 minute mark? (If you lose your scouting worker, which is commonplace) That's an expansion.
I say this specifically from a terran point of view, by the way, a race in which I believe that it may be possible to hold off cheeses blindly and be competitive with your opponent even if you don't know what they're doing. It may even be a small advantage when the both of you turn out to be doing a 'standard' build. You're up a worker and some minerals, you might kill his worker. And then your opponent throws a scan to put himself further in the hole.
The point is this: scouting is an important decision point. Is the extra (emphasis on EARLY information) information worth what I consider, on average, "150" minerals, at a point in which your build order mostly doesn't deviate? Trump says, for now, no
In other news, imagine how sturdy a build you would get when you trained yourself in this way. You'd eventually (maybe) find a build that was legitimate against everything. Note you do have that leeway of an extra "150" minerals (that's a blind bunker that you could have instead of scouting).
Checked the author halfway through and reread it in Trump voice.
1) Finding flaws in your opponents game 2) Adjusting to his moves
Earlygame ppl dont wait with the supply depot and first rax untill they've scouted. They dont even with with the gas or OC, its their standard build. They wont find any flaws (1) they can abuse this early. And they wont adjust to what they see (2), hence scouting when you'r build is already preset in your mind is pointless. Now if your not just doing 3 rax no matter what, you can scout, but then thats because your gonna use 2) and hopefully 1).
On steppes of war you see early scouting due to 2), and most PvZ u see the same to adjust to either a pool/hatch or a hatch/pool (might go forge first ala Huk).
So yes, scouting is a very important part of the game, if you know your scouting for 1) and 2) and not just to go "oh shit he's doing banshee.. well im still doing my 4 gate push anyway so.."
Using Flash as an example for that one point, makes sense Nazgul. But looking at the bigger picture, Flash early scouts almost all the time. Those rare games where he doesn't early scout, he has a specific feel and gameplan. I see your point there.
But then there's Sjow, who NEVER early scouts. There's a huge crack in his armor that could get sealed up if he early scouts more often rather than NEVER. This leaves him susceptible to all sorts of early game cheeses and whatnot.
Sjow has very solid build orders in every matchup, the only problem that I see is that his play is very very predictable and potentially easy to abuse, but Sjow is a really smart player and he has got his timings down really nicely, so it's not as easy as it seems ;(
for me this depends entirely on the matchup. If Its terran I hold off all scouting until 25+ supply and a few mules are down, then do scans.
If its protoss I always, always go for robo / obs as fast as possible in every matchup. It's pretty much essential imo with current patch (hopefully after scouting buff it will be easier)
As zerg, I simply scout with well placed / hidden lords. No need to send drones whatsoever I dont think. Once lings are out you have run of the entire map if you play economically. Also, hatching before pool is pretty much cheese proof now. At least I'm yet to be successfully cheesed this patch.
Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
Haha, at least Im not acting like jesus Mr. Protoss whiner..
I think Im supposed to shut up, uninstall SC2 and try my luck in poker since Im trying to communicate with *** INCONTROL right?
You seem rather funny to me.. Oh, no offence.
Since you seem to get fame for flame I have nothing relevant to respond to.
You realize you are arguing based on "experience" when there's no real way for you to have the "experience" to make it a basis for an argument. This argument is merely a potential thing, there is are no real "facts" to go about.
That being said I think Incontrol and Nazgul are arguing on different wavelengths. Incontrol is saying that not early scouting has potential for more harm than good and Nazgul is saying that you don't always have to early scout if you are doing something that might not need early information. Both are correct yet both are kinda not arguing the same thing.
I personally think that SjoW got an advantage in more games than he lost to not scouting early with his scvs. You should always consider that all gameplans have pros and cons, so pointing out games where he clearly lost due to not scouting with a scv (if you can find one that is) would not be a evidence to 'Not scouting with scv early is bad!'.
And I should add that I think it's more impressive to win games and play with low APM than players that do the same amount of things with high APM, and considering SjoW's achievements I can't see a reason for all the bashing by iNcontroL, and yes it's bashing, or are there not any good players right now, so the winning ones are automatically bad? :D
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over.
As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers.
vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion.
vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker.
It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist.
I've been playing Zerg since the beginning (only low diamond though... not good at all) But I would not consider a second not scouting my opponent. In the case of sjow, depending on his build, he might just want to trow a scan out there once to catch the info he needs at a certain time... job's done... haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..... the life of a terran is so simple these days...!
On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
I dissagree. There is no build that isn't altered based on what you see and can defend vs everything. PvT for an example you can 10gate zealot rush a terran that doesn't wall in. If he doesn't scout that he will get so hurt by the zealots that the game will be over after that. Also if he does wall and goes for a marine heavy build vs someone that does 2 gate before core stalker rush then he will lose without a bunker. So basically you need to scout what's coming one way or another. However the scout can be later in some builds.
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over.
As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers.
vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion.
vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker.
It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist.
This is really not adding anything to the discussion. Not to be harsh but no one really cares how you play since you aren't the top level or player this thread is about. Your experience in the matter isn't really the point of this discussion. It's Sjow's scouting and if there's potential for improvement or if it's just right. This has nothing to do with how you play so why on earth are you posting what you do.
Incontrols main argument appears to be that there are things that if not scouted could kill you but the gain from not scouting doesn't out weigh the potential to die.
In broodwar there are standard builds that have been refined by various pros for years to be able to respond to all early aggression. On top of that, unlike in sc2 pros know almost all of the possible openings their opponent could be doing and have practiced playing against them countless times already. They still scout every time.
The mineral gain from not scouting is not even close to the value of the information you get from scouting.
On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
Such a passionate fun, arent you..
Please, If you have nothing to say on your own, than keep your mouth shut. No need to ruin this fun with Incontrol..
On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote: Why doesn't he scout?
Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it.
Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard.
On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote: Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote: Why doesn't he scout?
Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it.
Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard.
On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote: Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
EDIT: Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line.
Well, you can't attribute his wins to his lack of scouting while you can say he lost several games because he didn't scout.
I'm sure if he scouted he would still wins numerous tournaments while also eliminating several losses which happened cause of no scouting.
This is the core issue. Does not early scouting give a benefit more than the potential risks IF there are potential risks? Is getting a mineral advantage better than dying?
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
And people like Jinro/Nazghul dont find it so difficult..Maybe its because these two dont start their contributions with this "Im progamer and I speak in name of god" feel?
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
And people like Jinro/Nazghul dont find it so difficult..Maybe its because these two dont start their contributions with this "Im progamer and I speak in name of god" feel?
Still, it would be a better discussion if the best players debated this, instead of a bunch of random bronze-diamond people proclaiming their vast experience and knowledge about the matter.
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
That's not true, IdrA posts everytime he has something offensive or stupid to say
Why did everyone get so mad though, what started out as a normal discussion turned into a flamewar. Maybe people could express their views without sounding like a douchebag at the same time, or acting like they're above others.
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over.
As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers.
vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion.
vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker.
It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist.
This is really not adding anything to the discussion. Not to be harsh but no one really cares how you play since you aren't the top level or player this thread is about. Your experience in the matter isn't really the point of this discussion. It's Sjow's scouting and if there's potential for improvement or if it's just right. This has nothing to do with how you play so why on earth are you posting what you do.
Incontrols main argument appears to be that there are things that if not scouted could kill you but the gain from not scouting doesn't out weigh the potential to die.
I don't agree. The question here is not theorical, the question is : does a 12 scv scout will allow you to scout something useful ? There is no experience needed here, this is all about timings. And if in 80% of the times you won't scout anything useful, does the minerals gained are more valuable than the scouting information ?
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over.
As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers.
vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion.
vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker.
It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist.
This is really not adding anything to the discussion. Not to be harsh but no one really cares how you play since you aren't the top level or player this thread is about. Your experience in the matter isn't really the point of this discussion. It's Sjow's scouting and if there's potential for improvement or if it's just right. This has nothing to do with how you play so why on earth are you posting what you do.
Incontrols main argument appears to be that there are things that if not scouted could kill you but the gain from not scouting doesn't out weigh the potential to die.
I don't agree. The question here is not theorical, the question is : does a 12 scv scout will allow you to scout something useful ? There is no experience needed here, this is all about timings. And if in 80% of the times you won't scout anything useful, does the minerals gained are more valuable than the scouting information ?
Well that's subjective. Is potentially dying in a must win game worth less than minerals gained by not scouting?
So I think the question really should be: Is there anything an earlier scout can scout that could kill you that a later scout could not? If the answer to this question is that a later scout can scout the same potentially game losing things then yes, later scouting is perfectly fine. If not then it's a huge risk in important games.
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
And people like Jinro/Nazghul dont find it so difficult..Maybe its because these two dont start their contributions with this "Im progamer and I speak in name of god" feel?
Still, it would be a better discussion if the best players debated this, instead of a bunch of random bronze-diamond people proclaiming their vast experience and knowledge about the matter.
Since the only thing I was trying to expain (that SjoW doesnt need to scout with early scv) is based on many games Ive been watching on his stream your post makes no sence at all..
Then suddenly I became jesus and bronze-diamond noob within 5 minutes, Oh I love tl so much..
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over.
As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers.
vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion.
vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker.
It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist.
This is really not adding anything to the discussion. Not to be harsh but no one really cares how you play since you aren't the top level or player this thread is about. Your experience in the matter isn't really the point of this discussion. It's Sjow's scouting and if there's potential for improvement or if it's just right. This has nothing to do with how you play so why on earth are you posting what you do.
Incontrols main argument appears to be that there are things that if not scouted could kill you but the gain from not scouting doesn't out weigh the potential to die.
I don't agree. The question here is not theorical, the question is : does a 12 scv scout will allow you to scout something useful ? There is no experience needed here, this is all about timings. And if in 80% of the times you won't scout anything useful, does the minerals gained are more valuable than the scouting information ?
Well that's subjective. Is potentially dying in a must win game worth less than minerals gained by not scouting?
So I think the question really should be: Is there anything an earlier scout can scout that could kill you that a later scout could not?
I agree this time :p And I'd tend to answer no to this (from a terran POV, obv the answer is yes from a zerg pov) Vs all 3 race, your scout will be dead, from my experience of playing and watching things like GSL, 90% of the time before he can see any deviation from a standard build. So if your build is cheese proof, why not.
Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play?
Well my thought on this matter is, that he will lose more than not on some really allin cheesy play, and he may or may not stop some semi-allins.
Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows?
As we all know Terran is the one race that benefits from defensive stance so it might work sometimes. But scouting is really important and as more the game evolves greater will be the need for scouting.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
Meh I am pretty sure SjoW has very solid reasons and has decided a long time ago this is style fits the way he plays a lot better. It's not like he doesn't have a gazillion pratice partners that gives him time to try it out.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing
I could go on...
Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc
Yeah, please remember that we only talk about a scv12 scout. I mean, he's delaying his scout from like 2 or 3 minutes, and replacing it with a late scout that will be able to see his whole opponent's base before dying usualy.
On December 15 2010 02:10 MrCon wrote: Yeah, please remember that we only talk about a scv12 scout. I mean, he's delaying his scout from like 2 or 3 minutes, and replacing it with a late scout that will be able to see his whole opponent's base before dying usualy.
What scout sees their entire base? Wtf? Hellion? That is a joke.
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
And people like Jinro/Nazghul dont find it so difficult..Maybe its because these two dont start their contributions with this "Im progamer and I speak in name of god" feel?
Still, it would be a better discussion if the best players debated this, instead of a bunch of random bronze-diamond people proclaiming their vast experience and knowledge about the matter.
Except that 99% of the players who play the game are regular bronze-diamond people. We are not here to claim our vast experience, just our simple experience with the game that we play everyday just like the pros. I came here telling the tale of how SJOW's play affected my own play and why. I don't come here talking about my amazing marine splitting vs banelings...because there is no hope in hell that a person with normal skill can do such things like SJOW does. A normal player CAN not scout and see benefits from it.
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
And people like Jinro/Nazghul dont find it so difficult..Maybe its because these two dont start their contributions with this "Im progamer and I speak in name of god" feel?
Still, it would be a better discussion if the best players debated this, instead of a bunch of random bronze-diamond people proclaiming their vast experience and knowledge about the matter.
Since the only thing I was trying to expain (that SjoW doesnt need to scout with early scv) is based on many games Ive been watching on his stream your post makes no sence at all..
Then suddenly I became jesus and bronze-diamond noob within 5 minutes, Oh I love tl so much..
Sorry mac, it wasn't directed at you. But merely an observation of this thread in its whole.
Not scouting early mean "you pretty sure that the other guy will not do anything cheesy very early game while give yourself a small economy boost over the other guy" . ..............2k rating newbie like myself do that but sometimes I got steam-roll. It's rare but it's there.
On December 15 2010 02:10 MrCon wrote: Yeah, please remember that we only talk about a scv12 scout. I mean, he's delaying his scout from like 2 or 3 minutes, and replacing it with a late scout that will be able to see his whole opponent's base before dying usualy.
What scout sees their entire base? Wtf? Hellion? That is a joke.
In a 111 build, the first helion will usualy be able to go up the ramp. A reaper can usualy see everything before dying too.
On December 15 2010 02:13 Dave. wrote: Seems to me like Sjow has been doing well in spite of not scouting early and not because of it.
Ya. Lots of people have been going with the logic ''Sjow has a lot of success and he doesn't early scout or has high APM, therefore early scouting and high APM isn't neccessary''. Thing is, he could be even better and have even more success if he did. I'm sure of that.
On December 15 2010 02:10 MrCon wrote: Yeah, please remember that we only talk about a scv12 scout. I mean, he's delaying his scout from like 2 or 3 minutes, and replacing it with a late scout that will be able to see his whole opponent's base before dying usualy.
What scout sees their entire base? Wtf? Hellion? That is a joke.
In a 111 build, the first helion will usualy be able to go up the ramp. A reaper can usualy see everything before dying too.
No way Hellion will make it. Watch the replay I posted above.
I get a little skeptical when people refuse to scout but somehow get away with it in online video games.
Top level RTS is about adapting to what's going on, streamlined build orders are good mind you, but if you are refusing to scout to the point where it is actually costing you games, that's just silly and there's a reason a lot of the best players make scouting a habit, and it's not because it is inefficient (it saves them from losing to certain direct counters)
Is Sjow lan proven?
Actually I shouldn't even ask if he is lan proven, it wouldn't matter either way lol.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing
I could go on...
Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc
Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds.
Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds.
Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds?
I'm surprised at how well Sjow does by simply doing the same build every game. Theorycrafting wise, you'd expect his opponents (in tournaments at least) to find something really abusive (i'm thinking double expand right off the bat). But I haven't seen it work out that way very often... I really can't tell if this speaks to his strength or his opponents weakness.
^^Inc has a good point about the early scout actually. You do get a lot of information, even if it's not definitely void rays, you know if it's a 1 gas warpgate rush, you see if he gets a stalker or sentry, if he skips the zealot, you see where the pylons are so you know where to scan, etc. All of that information helps you narrow down your response. Same with zerg. You get a pretty good idea if a 1 base all-in is coming, even if you don't see the roach warren or the baneling nest.
Flash got into this habit where he didn't scout too much and he got his butt kicked. He now scouts all the time, even before his 14 CCs and he's nigh unbeatable. It's very rare that he'll play blind.
Scouting is necessary. You throw away maybe 100 minerals with a scout but just knowing what your opponent is up to is easily worth this amount.
That said if you have a specific plan for a game and nothing the opponent does will alter your game plan you shouldn't bother scouting. The amount of times this type of play is useful is minimal though.
On December 15 2010 02:31 aidnai wrote: I'm surprised at how well Sjow does by simply doing the same build every game. Theorycrafting wise, you'd expect his opponents (in tournaments at least) to find something really abusive (i'm thinking double expand right off the bat). But I haven't seen it work out that way very often... I really can't tell if this speaks to his strength or his opponents weakness.
He has very refined overall good and safe build that he can basicly success with in every matchup.. And its pretty hard to abuse it, because its capable of getting an early pressure as well as aim for macro late game.. And since he playes with this build very often, he knows his timings well I would guess thats the reason hes doing well.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
Agreed with this. But I do believe builds that are adaptable with scouting will on average give you more success than just blindly dealing hands left and right. When a terran 2 Rax Marine all-ins with scv's, I actually never understood why they scouted at all on 2 player maps.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing
I could go on...
Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc
Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds.
Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds.
Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds?
On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
Such a passionate fun, arent you..
Please, If you have nothing to say on your own, than keep your mouth shut. No need to ruin this fun with Incontrol..
Lol are you kidding me? Your first post was nothing more than being a douche toward Geoff, so don't talk. Take your own advice.
This kinda became blown out of proportions. He doesnt scout with an early scv. Thats it. Nothing more. I could even argue that beyond the very first few minutes he scouts more actively than A LOT of other top terrans because he always makes a helion. But this has probably become totally blown up because commentators has nothing to talk about early game and when someone doesnt send an scv it becomes this huge subject of discussion unitl a game actually start to develop. And so he became "the guy who doesnt scout", which is completely false. He scouts a lot, just like all other top terrans. The only thing he does do is that he scouts less during a very small time frame of say 1-2min early game. Thats all. And thats really not a big deal. He wont gain masively on it economically and he wont lose anything on it unless he gets cheesed (supposing A) he would actually scout the cheese with an scv B) he would actually be in a position to change his build order to adapt to the cheese). Other than that its really no big deal.
And Im pretty sure we can say by now its not hurting him much, because is far as I see very few people abuse it succesfully. He'd be a random 2200 T by now if it was that easy to abuse it.
Its a lot more interesting really to see which top players continously uses scans/sacs overlords etc late game to scout. That has a way bigger impact on the outcome of a game late game than that early scv has early game. But that has just never become a topic.
On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
Such a passionate fun, arent you..
Please, If you have nothing to say on your own, than keep your mouth shut. No need to ruin this fun with Incontrol..
Lol are you kidding me? Your first post was nothing more than being a douche toward Geoff, so don't talk. Take your own advice.
Ur kiddin yourself. My first post is on page 8 and is actually related to this thread opposed to your endless flaming..
Get your facts straight and dont make yourself look like an arrogant troll, thank you..
edit: Watch the way Incontrol responds to me one post below and tell me about being douche, seriously..
On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
Such a passionate fun, arent you..
Please, If you have nothing to say on your own, than keep your mouth shut. No need to ruin this fun with Incontrol..
Lol are you kidding me? Your first post was nothing more than being a douche toward Geoff, so don't talk. Take your own advice.
Ur kiddin yourself. My first post is on page 8 and is actually related to this thread opposed to your endless flaming.. Get your facts straight and dont make yourself look like an arrogant troll, thank you..
edit: Watch the way Incontrol responds to me one post below and tell me about being douche, seriously..
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing
I could go on...
Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc
Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds.
Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds.
Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds?
Please tell me more about sc2 sir. I had no idea
Could you genuinely address the issue without being an ass? You're basically saying terran's first scv can scout little hints like these that suggest void rays, and you're right. At the same time all of these hints at sub-3 minutes into the game dont make void rays any more likely than the sum liklihood of dts, phoenix, blink stalkers, or literally *any* tech route, plus there's the chance that the enemy pulls off of gas once your scout dies.
Either way, whether you get the hints towards one tech or another your gonna have to scout later with a helion/reaper (possibly feasible), factory, or scan to hone in the opponent's build. Or maybe the toss turns up with a different build (expands sooner than expected or has more stalkers than expected) sooner than this time frame and you don't have to scout for what was up at all.
Edit: I guess no coaching for free here on tl. I still totally respect your opinion inc but I'd like to understand how to put your reasoning into practice. so sorry
TvP, Stepps of War -So by not sending scv scout, the T player gets 50 minerals or more, block ramp, bunker asap this will nullify the 10-gate cb zealot rushes, or even outside base proxies the immediate threat to look for which is in-base proxies -Techlab scouting reaper putting down techlab and the block will nullify stalker harrassments, since marauders become easily accessable Build order now deviates according to what reaper sees, which in most instances is when GAME PLAN is drawn unless T sees early aggressive P
besides proxy gate + early probe harras making sure T can't block, I don't see any other possible cheese available or effective bunker is refundable, plus you won't loose the scouting scv so if a player has more faith in his macro games, why scout?
now, a player thinking of 2 rax play might need to scout because dual gate stalkers will gain slight advantage to this kind of play on Stepps of war, so if a scout sees dual gate stalkers, maybe 2 rax can be altered
the point: scout for something to attack or scout for something to defend against a few people like to go on a treasure hunt, and they sometimes do find treasures a few people like to put investments on their macro games in Sjow's case, obviously he preferred second way
the problem: people argue to argue people scout to scout but don't see, after argument, you still need to find what's best for YOU, not others and after scouting or not, you still need to WIN games
so there is definitely nothing bad about Sjow the poll simply answers to what % of people think scouting > investing not actually a truth or fact that scouting > investing
On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
Such a passionate fun, arent you..
Please, If you have nothing to say on your own, than keep your mouth shut. No need to ruin this fun with Incontrol..
Lol are you kidding me? Your first post was nothing more than being a douche toward Geoff, so don't talk. Take your own advice.
Ur kiddin yourself. My first post is on page 8 and is actually related to this thread opposed to your endless flaming.. Get your facts straight and dont make yourself look like an arrogant troll, thank you..
edit: Watch the way Incontrol responds to me one post below and tell me about being douche, seriously..
i love the irony of this statement
Can you enlighten me why the hell would you take random stuff out of context and make clueless comment about it to make you look smart?
I hope your 3rd post on tl will bring something more out of you..
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing
I could go on...
Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc
Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds.
Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds.
Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds?
Please tell me more about sc2 sir. I had no idea
Could you genuinely address the issue without being an ass? You're basically saying terran's first scv can scout little hints like these that suggest void rays, and you're right. At the same time all of these hints at sub-3 minutes into the game dont make void rays any more likely than the sum liklihood of dts, phoenix, blink stalkers, or literally *any* tech route, plus there's the chance that the enemy pulls off of gas once your scout dies.
Either way, whether you get the hints towards one tech or another your gonna have to scout later with a helion/reaper (possibly feasible), factory, or scan to hone in the opponent's build. Or maybe the toss turns up with a different build (expands sooner than expected or has more stalkers than expected) sooner than this time frame and you don't have to scout for what was up at all.
Who are you?
Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules and a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build. An early scout sets the tone for how you play the game. You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence.
Nazgul's point (see first page) is dead on. Sjow's build is pretty safe, and if you're going for a build that's weak to certain other builds, it's almost impossible to adapt without ruining your build and losing the game. Therefore, sometimes knowing your opponent's opener isn't as helpful as getting the extra minerals. That being said, scouting later on is always important, especially when knowing where to position your army in relation to your opponent's, and to see how many and where his expansions are.
I went from around 2300 points to almost 2900 points in under two weeks when i switched to the hellion scout approach. So for me this style works wonders.
Only a Terran can get away with no earlygame scouting, but even Terran needs to know when you're going to expand and whether your're going standard army composition or not.
Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble,
No one. So we agree.
because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules
If you scout what *may be* a non-tech build and so forgo more of that larger ensemble you are just as vulnerable to a tech switch as you would have been to a certain tech in the first place. The point is you have to keep constant tabs on your opponent, or as you put it, keep
a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build.
The point is you don't need to start off by sacrificing economy when you can just begin that ensemble at a time more crucial to your robust build order. Sjow's tournament and ladder record is pretty much proof of that.
You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence.
And you end with something everyone will agree on. thank you
How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing
I could go on...
Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc
Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds.
Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds.
Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds?
Please tell me more about sc2 sir. I had no idea
Could you genuinely address the issue without being an ass? You're basically saying terran's first scv can scout little hints like these that suggest void rays, and you're right. At the same time all of these hints at sub-3 minutes into the game dont make void rays any more likely than the sum liklihood of dts, phoenix, blink stalkers, or literally *any* tech route, plus there's the chance that the enemy pulls off of gas once your scout dies.
Either way, whether you get the hints towards one tech or another your gonna have to scout later with a helion/reaper (possibly feasible), factory, or scan to hone in the opponent's build. Or maybe the toss turns up with a different build (expands sooner than expected or has more stalkers than expected) sooner than this time frame and you don't have to scout for what was up at all.
Who are you?
Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules and a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build. An early scout sets the tone for how you play the game. You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence.
Incontrol stated
Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
Clearly he is implying that his 12 food scv should give him the information necessary to build 2 Vikings instead of a Raven to prepare for VRs.
We are trying to make the point that seeing an early 2nd gas from protoss is not enough information to assume Void Rays and make 2 Vikings instead of a Raven blindly. This entire thread is about the early scv scout, so to us InControl is clearly saying that Terrans should assume VRs are coming when they see an early 2nd gas and that is what we are having a hard time understanding.
I'm not sure why InControl is acting so smug and superior to everybody. We are just trying to understand the discussion more clearly. This is a good discussion about how one person can be so successful without sending an early scv scout and maybe too many players are sending an early scout on certain maps/matchups when it is going to change nothing 90% of the time and they could have had an extra 50-100 minerals 100% of the time.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv.
I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players.
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout.
Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
The 7th post in the thread mentions a game with a very good bw player choosing not to send a worker scout. I'm sure there are plenty other non-trivial examples.
Also, every time I sent my scv to see gateway, cyber, gas, cb being used on whatever... I got that feeling (I could have inferred all that stuff just a minute or two later by testing the choke), even if I get my worker home safe. Is it just me?
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
That's not true, IdrA posts everytime he has something offensive or stupid to say
Why did everyone get so mad though, what started out as a normal discussion turned into a flamewar. Maybe people could express their views without sounding like a douchebag at the same time, or acting like they're above others.
That's just because most of the people who post in here are socially retarded, I don't mean that in an angry sense, I just mean it in a literal sense. People do not react well on here when they are told they are wrong which is why every thread turns into a flame war.
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'" .
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
Well, you COULD say it every time the scouting information doesn´t change your build order and later on you lose a battle that would've been won with two extra marines.
I agree that scouting is generally beneficial and obviously you don't want to continue to not scout if you're known to not scout. Occasionally skipping the early scout is definitely viable though.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv.
I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players.
2nd Early gas USUALLY points to either robo or stargate. 4 warpgate timing delays the 2nd gas much longer. Vikings will be good in both these instances. Unless it's an immortal push, whereas the hellion scout would be able to find that out anyways. The raven will help more against 4 warpgate.
And the reason InControl is acting that way is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug. I'd be smug too if I had a reputation like that, don't blame him. Too bad the reputation is mostly from BW.
On December 15 2010 03:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Chill just run man, there are too many of them
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
Elitism, is that a part of your argumentation technique?
People are approaching this discussion with very different mindsets and it's obvious that there are both situations were you will be better off as well as worse off with an early scout.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv.
I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players.
And the reason InControl is acting that way is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug. I'd be smug too if I had a reputation like that, don't blame him. Too bad the reputation is mostly from BW.
Just want to point out that I didn't read this before posting - I was not jumping on the bandwagon. I am constantly annoyed by InControl's argumentation technique and it was of importance in the debate to react to this technique of his.
On December 15 2010 03:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Chill just run man, there are too many of them
Who needs to logically discuss anything when we can just belittle everybody in the thread who doesn't agree that scouting an early 2nd gas from protoss means terran should always get 2 quick vikings instead of a Raven!
Anybody else posting the way InControl has been in this thread would have been temp banned swiftly.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv.
I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players.
And the reason InControl is acting that way is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug. I'd be smug too if I had a reputation like that, don't blame him. Too bad the reputation is mostly from BW.
He is a pro SC2 player though so it makes sense he is smarter than the players here, think of it like......if you are diamond player would you listen to a bronze telling you how to play? You'd tell them to get lost, of course.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv.
I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players.
2nd Early gas USUALLY points to either robo or stargate. 4 warpgate timing delays the 2nd gas much longer. Vikings will be good in both these instances. Unless it's an immortal push, whereas the hellion scout would be able to find that out anyways. The raven will help more against 4 warpgate.
And the reason InControl is acting that is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug.
yeah but it could also mean that DTs are coming. I don't think that other top terran players build vikings without seeing a robo, a stargate, immortals, colossi or voidrays.
Why bother arguing this. As I said in my earlier post. Sjow can get away with out scout because he's playing ladder and mostly online tourney, where people dont study his play. If he gets into a major tourney like GSL, his opponent will STUDY his every move and the lack of scouting is where his opponent will emphasize on.
Sjow plays well w/o scout but HE CAN DO BETTER WITH SCOUT. Thats it.
He doesn't scout doesn't mean that you have to do that too. A little scout will not hurt your econ and may provide some valueable information.
I bet he will start scouting when he starts to lose alot because of the lack of scout.
Early second gas is just one randomly picked example of why an early worker scout is important. It could be a proxy or even a MorroW style worker rush, you simply cover your bases. You can count pylons/workers, see what's being chronoboosted, etc. Losing that one worker is so completely marginal compared to the ways you can die if your opponent knows exactly what you will be doing and direct counters it.
It doesn't mean his build won't work or be better without scouting in an individual game, but it would actually become safer across the board if there were a threat of him scouting.
If you know 100% what your opponent will be doing, there's a hard counter you should be doing every time. Even if he only scouts 30% of the time, it drastically affects the response of the opponent and improves the quality of the build, even when he doesn't scout.
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv.
I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players.
2nd Early gas USUALLY points to either robo or stargate. 4 warpgate timing delays the 2nd gas much longer. Vikings will be good in both these instances. Unless it's an immortal push, whereas the hellion scout would be able to find that out anyways. The raven will help more against 4 warpgate.
And the reason InControl is acting that is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug.
yeah but it could also mean that DTs are coming. I don't think that other top terran players build vikings without seeing a robo, a stargate, immortals, colossi or voidrays.
If you don't early scout, you have to sack the hellion and/or scan to scout the robo/stargate/darkshrine. If you do an early scout, you can get a feel for if it is necessary to waste the minerals on it. So what if the SCV could have brought in 50-100 minerals, is using a scan later any less a waste? They may have to. The game is too dynamic to not early scout in my opinion, but sjow's style is to not do it, and he is seeing success. Now whether that success is him playing in his comfort zone with his strategy he knows how to perform, or is it because of the 50-100 mineral advantage from not sending an early scout, we won't know.
Hey everybody!!!! let's discuss the necessity of building workers troughtout the game... isn't it dumb to trash hundreds of mineral in a RTS game for unit how are so weak?
This post should be closed by someone before SC 2 turns out being played horribly!!!
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout.
What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that?
Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option?
early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing
I could go on...
Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc
Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds.
Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds.
Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds?
Please tell me more about sc2 sir. I had no idea
Could you genuinely address the issue without being an ass? You're basically saying terran's first scv can scout little hints like these that suggest void rays, and you're right. At the same time all of these hints at sub-3 minutes into the game dont make void rays any more likely than the sum liklihood of dts, phoenix, blink stalkers, or literally *any* tech route, plus there's the chance that the enemy pulls off of gas once your scout dies.
Either way, whether you get the hints towards one tech or another your gonna have to scout later with a helion/reaper (possibly feasible), factory, or scan to hone in the opponent's build. Or maybe the toss turns up with a different build (expands sooner than expected or has more stalkers than expected) sooner than this time frame and you don't have to scout for what was up at all.
Who are you?
Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules and a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build. An early scout sets the tone for how you play the game. You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence.
Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded.
Clearly he is implying that his 12 food scv should give him the information necessary to build 2 Vikings instead of a Raven to prepare for VRs.
We are trying to make the point that seeing an early 2nd gas from protoss is not enough information to assume Void Rays and make 2 Vikings instead of a Raven blindly. This entire thread is about the early scv scout, so to us InControl is clearly saying that Terrans should assume VRs are coming when they see an early 2nd gas and that is what we are having a hard time understanding.
I'm not sure why InControl is acting so smug and superior to everybody. We are just trying to understand the discussion more clearly. This is a good discussion about how one person can be so successful without sending an early scv scout and maybe too many players are sending an early scout on certain maps/matchups when it is going to change nothing 90% of the time and they could have had an extra 50-100 minerals 100% of the time.
You missed the point, even when I explained it specifically. Obviously your scout isn't going to see the stargates being made. But if you never scouted the tech build to begin with, you might never scout the stargates, because you wouldn't be spending scans to check corners of the base. Again, scouting is a game long activity. It starts with your initial scout, which tells you when to scout next and where, and then that scout will give you info that determines where you scan next, and so on. iNc is implying that an early scout would set this process in motion, and makes you much less susceptible to surprises.
Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble,
because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules
If you scout what *may be* a non-tech build and so forgo more of that larger ensemble you are just as vulnerable to a tech switch as you would have been to a certain tech in the first place. The point is you have to keep constant tabs on your opponent, or as you put it, keep
a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build.
The point is you don't need to start off by sacrificing economy when you can just begin that ensemble at a time more crucial to your robust build order. Sjow's tournament and ladder record is pretty much proof of that.
You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence.
And you end with something everyone will agree on. thank you
You're not getting the whole picture either. My response is basically what I said above. The impact of that one scv is minimal compared to the information that sets your entire game plan in motion. Sjow's tournament and ladder record is a testament to his mechanics and game sense, not to a lack of scouting. If Sjow plays (say) NonY in a BoX series that both prepare for, then Sjow is going to lose if he doesn't scout. You can get away with that on the ladder, but you can't get away with that against prepared builds.
The fact that he plays terran definitely helps, by the way. But you can still abuse it.
On December 15 2010 03:50 arterian wrote: I wonder if his build can hold off 10 pylon 10 gate 10 gate proxy
He lost to this several times on his stream.. But he also held it off poking with marines around natural etc. It depends how far proxy gates are.. Actually I think its more safe to scout around your base for proxy than see something is missing in Protoss base when its too late.
most the time when i'm scouting it's purely looking if i'm being cheesed whether it be 2 gate proxy or 6 pool. i generally don't get cheesed by terran, but it's nice messing with their scv's =]
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
I think people are just confused why this guy, who does 0 early game scouting and still manage to win so many games and win so many online, even "offline" tournaments.
Ok. Sjow has spoken. Lets just leave it at that. Nothing more to argue about. I myself will wait untill Sjow changes his opinion about scout which I think is in very near future.
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout.
Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
All RTS games are based on the same thing. Get eco, army and win. With scouting it is the same in every game as well, get information and adapt accordingly... How is that different for any game?
On December 15 2010 03:54 FindingPride wrote: it's cool that people know sjow doesn't scout now. best of luck to him in tourneys. I'm sure he wont need to be scouting then.
Lol it's mentioned like every time one of his games are cast. Which isn't exactly rare considering he makes finals in a money tourney several times a week.
On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote: This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all.
Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol
Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not.
On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote: This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all.
Naz's post is nearly entirely irrelevant btw because he is comparing not scouting early at all to people "over scouting" which is apples and oranges. I'm not saying everyone needs to dedicate 3 harvesters to early game scouting but if you can get info that they are 1 gate fe OR they are vr rushing which he loses to all the time because 1-1-1 is bad vs it then he'd be much better.... And at what cost? The mining time of a single scv? Lol
Please don't sit aroung making it sound like not scouting is a style and saving the mining time of 1 worker is some brilliant macro play... It's not.
Good to see a high level player speak out against this. ^__^
I was about to go berserk wondering how in the hell so many people are defending not scouting...wondering when a champion of the common sense people would rise up in this thread...and then inc comes!
Seriously, first few pages of this thread...what the fuck. Are you guys all trolling or are you seriously trying to defend sjow's horrible scouting that has been pointed out by most people here?
Has the "derp" really pervaded the brains and common sense of so many people on these forums? The OP itself is a gigantic "Derp." Like inc said, "horrible scouting" is not a fucking style...IT'S BAD PLAY.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming. also. do you think you can tell the difference between 1 gate expand and 2gate robo expand?? - -
Its ridiculous how many people dont get to point of the op. Its not about the scouting itself. Its about the current standard and about a player who questions it.
I think there is nothing better in a RTS then changing the standard. So instead of defending it it should be questioned.
And even if Sjow starts scouting again with an "early" scv its just because he found a build of his opponent who made it necessary. You guys should start to realize its not about whats right and whats wrong. Its about how can i maximize my gain with the least investment.
On December 15 2010 03:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Chill just run man, there are too many of them
I just love how you judge people left and right like there is no tomorrow being justice in your little world of SC2 that you think you succeded in. Good luck with this approach sir, you made my day with your comments today..
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
i think it's to late to clear things up now Sjow, the "victimization and bandwagon" snowball is already down the mountain.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I think from now you rather change it to 20% standard and 80% cheese as this thread grows exponentionaly, haha.. :-)
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout.
Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
Obviously you can infer from my original post that I'm talking about traditional SCV scouting so there's no need for your play-dumb reply.
I think you can see the similarities between Brood War and SC2. Namely the buildings and units that you make for the first 5 minutes being literally identical. It's ignorant to blindly say "NEW GAME" when there is ridiculous overlap between them.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port ) thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck.
On December 15 2010 04:01 knL wrote: Its ridiculous how many people dont get to point of the op. Its not about the scouting itself. Its about the current standard and about a player who questions it.
People get it. When we say "scouting" we're talking about traditional scouting, okay? Everyone gets it.
In TvP, I feel the most important scouting information (assuming no cheese) is how much chrono boost is saved up on the nexus and the amount of gas. From there, I know whether or not it is safe to fast expand.
In TvZ, the only thing your scout could really do is block the expo. Most of the time, however, this doesn't happen, especially 4 player maps. But on 4 player maps, the position of the opponent is very important. I feel as Terran it often dictates your build. However, I know I've won many games by scouting a 1 base zerg and bunkering in. 90% of games zerg will FE, but those other 10% you might very well lose if you don't scout.
In TvT, I just recently won a game by scouting no gas, and then finding the proxy rax because of it. I easily had a bunker up to defend the marine push and was quite far ahead for the remainder of the game.
As a team mate i've discussed this with SjoW several times and I've come to some conclusions;
The way SjoW plays (read the way SJOW PLAYS) doesn't really benefit from early scv scouting.
Because of some things
1) SjoW approaches the game in a way where he wants build orders who are basically overall solid vs about anything. This doesn't mean he believes that his build orders are totally safe no matter what his opponent throws at him, it just means that his build order is safe enough to let him adapt quickly to pretty much any sitatuation (much like how the SC/BW build orders were in the last few years). I've seen SjoW handle situations where I thought he'd die right there on the spot, but his experience with the builds he does over and over gives him the routine needed to know what to do when, in almost all possible rush situations. He knows when and how many scvs to pull, where to engage etc...
2) SjoW does actually scout, the only difference from SjoW and your average player is that SjoW uses combat units to scout, and often very mobile combat units. He draws the conclusion; Okay, no matter what type of EARLY GAME cheese my opponent throws at me, I'm still sticking to this build, why do I need do scout as early as with my scv, when nothing I see with it will impact the way I play out my build order? So what does he do? In 99.9% of the games he plays, no matter what matchup, he builds a hellion. What does he do with the hellion? He scouts! Because at the time when the hellion comes out, is the time when SjoW needs to adapt his build if necessary. The time before that has no relevance, he's not going to make any adjustments anyways!
Also; We often saw SjoW do even more scouting in form of a no-cloak banshee from his starport. He'd more often than not do zero damage to the player he was facing, damaga as in getting kills on his banshee, but the information he gathered by just hoovering the sides of his opponents base, taking a swing by the expo, is actually really valueable.
3) I see a lot of players failing to notice this, but SjoW actually does early game scouting as well in form of sending his marine around his expo + to possible close positions and to possible proxy locations. This means that he has the time to react even if he were, lets say 2 gate proxied right outside his base, although sometimes he doesn't even scout with the marine, but players have begun taking advantage of that (SjoW lost to a 2 gate proxy on Xel Naga vs Slider due to not scouting at all in the beginning). If there's one thing I still disagree with in sjows play is that he doesn't even use his first marine sometimes.
4) Why is he able to defend various all-ins without even scouting? Because for one, his build is extremly safe. It's not particulary good vs anything (good as in, your BO will win you the game) but it's not extremly bad vs anything as well, and leaves a lot of room for quick adaption to the situation. Also, believe it or not, by not using a scv to scout, he's actually able to afford to push out one or even two units more than the player who'd used his scv to scout his opponent, which also contributes a lot to his ability to defend early game all-ins. ¨
Does this mean I shouldn't scout early on?
No. It doesn't mean you shouldn't ever scout, nor does it mean that not scouting early on is bad. It's all situational, what type of player are you? The reactional player, a player who basically does all his decisions based on what his opponent is doing, obviously needs all the intel he can get, thus scouting with your scv would be a good idea.
I think the most important thing to question yourself is "Why do I scout?" Far too many people just scout because it's muscle memory, or it's what they've been told to do because all the pros do it. Again, if you have a build which you think can hold its on vs pretty much anything, what do you benefit from seeing the stuff you see with your first scv scout? Do you really need that info? Or would you rather want a few extra minerals to have that extra unit out in case your opponent is actually doing early aggression?
Disclaimer: These are my own conclusions based off talks with SjoW, but also being around SjoW both offline/online when this question has been asked. Believe me, every other interview ive seen with sjow or even witnessed from the side IRL has always brought up the "why dont you scout?" question. I can't say to a 100% that SjoW would actually agree with my post though.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port ) thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck.
Perfect question. I have been in this situation many times and in this specific situation I would spot it with my helion and my starport would have been ready. I would probably go for an expansion my self and try to hit his economy to get on even grounds. Banshee is the obvious choice here. And wheter its a 1 gw exp or 2gw exp doesnt matter its a fast expansion anyway and it removes almost all potentiall aggresion from our opponent and thats the key information we gained.
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout.
Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
Obviously you can infer from my original post that I'm talking about traditional SCV scouting so there's no need for your play-dumb reply.
I think you can see the similarities between Brood War and SC2. Namely the buildings and units that you make for the first 5 minutes being literally identical. It's ignorant to blindly say "NEW GAME" when there is ridiculous overlap between them.
Oh ok, should I make any other inferences on your post? My assertion on your original post was that it was talking about SC2, since thread is about Starcraft 2 and also in the Starcraft 2 forum. I guess it was wrong.
I don't seem to remember zerg in BW scouting with drones on 2 player maps, so it would be reasonable to believe that things actually do change between games even scouting.
On December 15 2010 04:14 meRz wrote: As a team mate i've discussed this with SjoW several times and I've come to some conclusions;
The way SjoW plays (read the way SJOW PLAYS) doesn't really benefit from early scv scouting.
Because of some things
1) SjoW approaches the game in a way where he wants build orders who are basically overall solid vs about anything. This doesn't mean he believes that his build orders are totally safe no matter what his opponent throws at him, it just means that his build order is safe enough to let him adapt quickly to pretty much any sitatuation (much like how the SC/BW build orders were in the last few years). I've seen SjoW handle situations where I thought he'd die right there on the spot, but his experience with the builds he does over and over gives him the routine needed to know what to do when, in almost all possible rush situations. He knows when and how many scvs to pull, where to engage etc...
2) SjoW does actually scout, the only difference from SjoW and your average player is that SjoW uses combat units to scout, and often very mobile combat units. He draws the conclusion; Okay, no matter what type of EARLY GAME cheese my opponent throws at me, I'm still sticking to this build, why do I need do scout as early as with my scv, when nothing I see with it will impact the way I play out my build order? So what does he do? In 99.9% of the games he plays, no matter what matchup, he builds a hellion. What does he do with the hellion? He scouts! Because at the time when the hellion comes out, is the time when SjoW needs to adapt his build if necessary. The time before that has no relevance, he's not going to make any adjustments anyways!
Also; We often saw SjoW do even more scouting in form of a no-cloak banshee from his starport. He'd more often than not do zero damage to the player he was facing, damaga as in getting kills on his banshee, but the information he gathered by just hoovering the sides of his opponents base, taking a swing by the expo, is actually really valueable.
3) I see a lot of players failing to notice this, but SjoW actually does early game scouting as well in form of sending his marine around his expo + to possible close positions and to possible proxy locations. This means that he has the time to react even if he were, lets say 2 gate proxied right outside his base, although sometimes he doesn't even scout with the marine, but players have begun taking advantage of that (SjoW lost to a 2 gate proxy on Xel Naga vs Slider due to not scouting at all in the beginning). If there's one thing I still disagree with in sjows play is that he doesn't even use his first marine sometimes.
4) Why is he able to defend various all-ins without even scouting? Because for one, his build is extremly safe. It's not particulary good vs anything (good as in, your BO will win you the game) but it's not extremly bad vs anything as well, and leaves a lot of room for quick adaption to the situation. Also, believe it or not, by not using a scv to scout, he's actually able to afford to push out one or even two units more than the player who'd used his scv to scout his opponent, which also contributes a lot to his ability to defend early game all-ins. ¨
Does this mean I shouldn't scout early on?
No. It doesn't mean you shouldn't ever scout, nor does it mean that not scouting early on is bad. It's all situational, what type of player are you? The reactional player, a player who basically does all his decisions based on what his opponent is doing, obviously needs all the intel he can get, thus scouting with your scv would be a good idea.
I think the most important thing to question yourself is "Why do I scout?" Far too many people just scout because it's muscle memory, or it's what they've been told to do because all the pros do it. Again, if you have a build which you think can hold its on vs pretty much anything, what do you benefit from seeing the stuff you see with your first scv scout? Do you really need that info? Or would you rather want a few extra minerals to have that extra unit out in case your opponent is actually doing early aggression?
Disclaimer: These are my own conclusions based off talks with SjoW, but also being around SjoW both offline/online when this question has been asked. Believe me, every other interview ive seen with sjow or even witnessed from the side IRL has always brought up the "why dont you scout?" question. I can't say to a 100% that SjoW would actually agree with my post though.
great post, thank you!
(much better than the posts of Incontrol and avilo: "It's horrible! Why? Because I say so.")
I think one of the major benefits of scouting is psychological. You know what is going on, that nothing crazy like a double gateway rush right outside your natural is incoming. Even if you could held off that rush without scouting, the psychological aspect of knowing (to a large degree) what your opponent is doing and where he/she is, is at least very important for me.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
I watch his stream frequently and i see him losing to proxy rax, proxy gate, dts, baneling bust pretty often.If he scouted that I am sure he would defend them easily. This guy does 1-1-1 build which is most adaptable build in terran arsenal.There is no excuse to losing this kind of cheeses.
On December 15 2010 04:26 meRz wrote: Oh right I should really start reading all the pages in a thread before I write a reply. SjoW is apparently already here taking questions, lol!
You explained it in a way that basically allows 0 more flaming. Sjow just said what he likes about it. Your post is still very much appreciated.
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
I watch his stream frequently and i see him losing to proxy rax, proxy gate, dts, baneling bust pretty often.If he scouted that I am sure he would defend them easily. This guy does 1-1-1 build which is most adaptable build in terran arsenal.There is no excuse to losing this kind of cheeses.
I watched GSL where Jinro scouted against MC and he lost to similar things.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember)
Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused?
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port ) thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck.
Perfect question. I have been in this situation many times and in this specific situation I would spot it with my helion and my starport would have been ready. I would probably go for an expansion my self and try to hit his economy to get on even grounds. Banshee is the obvious choice here. And wheter its a 1 gw exp or 2gw exp doesnt matter its a fast expansion anyway and it removes almost all potentiall aggresion from our opponent and thats the key information we gained.
You should come to the us. server. I promise i'll change your mind in tvt.. : ) o if god so help me i will pride.726
the poll is dumb, it says is there any benefit of not scouting? well ofcourse u get more minerals. but that doesnt mean that the benefit outweighs the cons... just reword it
regardless, i havent seen that much of Sjow play, but i dont feel that there are enough solid builds that you can afford to not scout :-/
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout.
Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
Obviously you can infer from my original post that I'm talking about traditional SCV scouting so there's no need for your play-dumb reply.
I think you can see the similarities between Brood War and SC2. Namely the buildings and units that you make for the first 5 minutes being literally identical. It's ignorant to blindly say "NEW GAME" when there is ridiculous overlap between them.
Oh ok, should I make any other inferences on your post? My assertion on your original post was that it was talking about SC2, since thread is about Starcraft 2 and also in the Starcraft 2 forum. I guess it was wrong.
I don't seem to remember zerg in BW scouting with drones on 2 player maps, so it would be reasonable to believe that things actually do change between games even scouting.
My original post is talking about SC2. The only part referencing BW says BW in the sentence.
Zergs scouted with Drones on 2 player maps all the time. The fact that you can't remember super common practises means I'm just going to drop this.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember)
Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused?
It was against slider I lost to 2 gw proxy, and after that game I ofcourse checked the replay and saw my mistake and started talking to merz how to deal with it, and we agreed upon scouting with marines outside your base is the most optimal play.
the helion scout sees if theres a expansion outside his base and i constantly patrol between xelnaga towers and opponents expasion/base to see exact timing of his expansion. If you mean hidden expansion, thats just putting yourself in real danger and I would be glad if someone tried something like that against me.
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout.
Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum.
Obviously you can infer from my original post that I'm talking about traditional SCV scouting so there's no need for your play-dumb reply.
I think you can see the similarities between Brood War and SC2. Namely the buildings and units that you make for the first 5 minutes being literally identical. It's ignorant to blindly say "NEW GAME" when there is ridiculous overlap between them.
Oh ok, should I make any other inferences on your post? My assertion on your original post was that it was talking about SC2, since thread is about Starcraft 2 and also in the Starcraft 2 forum. I guess it was wrong.
I don't seem to remember zerg in BW scouting with drones on 2 player maps, so it would be reasonable to believe that things actually do change between games even scouting.
My original post is talking about SC2. The only part referencing BW says BW in the sentence.
Zergs scouted with Drones on 2 player maps all the time. The fact that you can't remember super common practises means I'm just going to drop this.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port ) thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck.
Perfect question. I have been in this situation many times and in this specific situation I would spot it with my helion and my starport would have been ready. I would probably go for an expansion my self and try to hit his economy to get on even grounds. Banshee is the obvious choice here. And wheter its a 1 gw exp or 2gw exp doesnt matter its a fast expansion anyway and it removes almost all potentiall aggresion from our opponent and thats the key information we gained.
You should come to the us. server. I promise i'll change your mind in tvt.. : ) o if god so help me i will pride.726
no thanks people have been doing cheese to me in 100 latest tourneys and im pretty confidant how to handle it. Especially in T v T.
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
Sure Sjow can play a fairly solid build that will let him win vs any opponent who is not as skilled as he is, but vs an equally skilled opponent, I think he will be at a disadvantage.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
Thank you SjoW and meRz for sharing your opinions here. Its so much more confident to have the voice of the person at hand instead of people just speculating without full back-up information
But wouldn't it be ideal to use builds that aren't "of the kind" that wouldn't change even if he scouted earlier, though I'm even dubious of that claim. Scouting with your first marine definitely isn't early enough against some "cheese" or at least leaves you in a much worse position than scouting with the scv.
Also, why do you think sjow is the only high level player that utilizes these builds that don't "require" scouting
Awesome posts by SjoW and merz. I haven't been scouting myself (only in TvZ cause I have a different opening vs FE and no FE) and I find cheeses to be completely defendable. Without the scout, your buildings and units come out significantly (in my mind) faster, which helps a lot.
What bothers me the most, is the 4 gate/ 3 gate + voidray situation. The early scout will not give you any information about it, and the hellion can be denied too easily if its being expected. The banshee is too late, and prevents u from building a viking. I think you need at least 1 bunker and immediate scv pull to defend both, especially the 3 gate + voidray.
I think this is the only flaw to it in my mind, but big enough to look for a different approach. I mean, in high level play, when the opp can expect 1/1/1 and does everything correctly, you won't scout the two all ins, and won't defend them. I was thinking maybe floating rax, but they take a long time to build, and cut quite a lot into your income.
Maybe a stupid question, but just because I've seen Mana do it on Shakuras recently....how on God's green earth are you supposed to "react" to a 15 Nexus without SCV scout? If you do hellion-scout the expo is established, the robo will be in time before cloak hits and you are in a world of poo-poo?
On December 15 2010 04:53 sleepingdog wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but just because I've seen Mana do it on Shakuras recently....how on God's green earth are you supposed to "react" to a 15 Nexus without SCV scout? If you do hellion-scout the expo is established, the robo will be in time before cloak hits and you are in a world of poo-poo?
He already responded that he doesn't think FE is better than expanding after gateway, so he doesn't worry about it.
i'm zerg, and i always drone scout vs terran and protoss, and Z if i'm wanting to 15 hatch. BUT, my primary objective when scouting terran and protoss is 1) to see if its a 2rax or 2 gate, and 2) then immediatly steal gas if it's not.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming.
Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game.
I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port ) thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck.
Perfect question. I have been in this situation many times and in this specific situation I would spot it with my helion and my starport would have been ready. I would probably go for an expansion my self and try to hit his economy to get on even grounds. Banshee is the obvious choice here. And wheter its a 1 gw exp or 2gw exp doesnt matter its a fast expansion anyway and it removes almost all potentiall aggresion from our opponent and thats the key information we gained.
You should come to the us. server. I promise i'll change your mind in tvt.. : ) o if god so help me i will pride.726
no thanks people have been doing cheese to me in 100 latest tourneys and im pretty confidant how to handle it. Especially in T v T.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off, but this is not optimal play, and a good player will take advantage of it as soon as they figure out that you never early scout.
On December 15 2010 04:53 sleepingdog wrote: Maybe a stupid question, but just because I've seen Mana do it on Shakuras recently....how on God's green earth are you supposed to "react" to a 15 Nexus without SCV scout? If you do hellion-scout the expo is established, the robo will be in time before cloak hits and you are in a world of poo-poo?
He already responded that he doesn't think FE is better than expanding after gateway, so he doesn't worry about it.
Sorry, must've missed this
All I read was that he doesn't care if it's one gate expand or 2 gate robo expand (if you aren't going for a timing push it indeed doesn't matter too much, I'd agree on this one)
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember)
Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused?
It was against slider I lost to 2 gw proxy, and after that game I ofcourse checked the replay and saw my mistake and started talking to merz how to deal with it, and we agreed upon scouting with marines outside your base is the most optimal play.
the helion scout sees if theres a expansion outside his base and i constantly patrol between xelnaga towers and opponents expasion/base to see exact timing of his expansion. If you mean hidden expansion, thats just putting yourself in real danger and I would be glad if someone tried something like that against me.
omg lol, you guys got together in a lil meeting and discussed how to stop that? Did it go something like this?"
sjow: yo i just lost to proxy gates, there's probably some real real easy way to stop it that i just haven't thought about
merz: well...in brood war, we used to use those worker guys to scout around for a proxy...because it's possible an opponent could do that
sjow: i don't use scv to scout
merz: ...you said proxy2gate right? sjow: yeah, that's what it was, there's gotta be some nice adaptation build i can do
merz: yeah...just scout for the proxy sjow; you mean with like a marine?
Wow, this discussion is rather heated up it seems ... I find this kind of strange since in my view scout timings are always directly tied to the build you are playing. And yes there definately are solid builds which actually benefit slightly from not scouting early (usually safe builds which are rigid early on anyways) and there might even be builds for which it is "optimal" to skip the early scout.
However, only being able to play those builds is not a sign of a varied playstyle and can surely be exploited. I am sure at some point Sjow will also need to vary his play and pick up builds which involve early scouting - at least occasionally. That being said I would not be surprised if other terran players will occasionally omit the first scout in the future, since Sjow build seems kind of strong.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember)
Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused?
It was against slider I lost to 2 gw proxy, and after that game I ofcourse checked the replay and saw my mistake and started talking to merz how to deal with it, and we agreed upon scouting with marines outside your base is the most optimal play.
the helion scout sees if theres a expansion outside his base and i constantly patrol between xelnaga towers and opponents expasion/base to see exact timing of his expansion. If you mean hidden expansion, thats just putting yourself in real danger and I would be glad if someone tried something like that against me.
omg lol, you guys got together in a lil meeting and discussed how to stop that? Did it go something like this?"
sjow: yo i just lost to proxy gates, there's probably some real real easy way to stop it that i just haven't thought about
merz: well...in brood war, we used to use those worker guys to scout around for a proxy...because it's possible an opponent could do that
sjow: i don't use scv to scout
merz: ...you said proxy2gate right? sjow: yeah, that's what it was, there's gotta be some nice adaptation build i can do
merz: yeah...just scout for the proxy sjow; you mean with like a marine?
merz: no, with an scv. sjow: how do i do that?
between this post and your Terran whine blog, no wonder you get made so much fun of on SotG podcast and on TL in general. Chill off with the negative attitude
It boggles my mind you would call scouting with marines the most optimal play against proxy 2 gate, I suppose you could mean the most optimal play if you are completely unwilling to scout with an scv
On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote: Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style."
How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
So many fluff posts in the past 10 pages, but thanks for SjoW for chiming in (as well as Chill, Incontrol, and Naz of course).
On December 15 2010 00:46 Brutus wrote: The only time when you can afford not to scout is a baneling opening, even if you want to go roach you have to know what he is doing. Throwing a roach den down and gas means 2 drones less and less lings vs a 6/7 pool. These little things can mean game over.
Generally on most maps I find the scouting drone needs to be exceptionally early to spot a 6 or 7 pool before you start your gas. Plus on most maps where people 6 or 7 pool the lings should be at your base, or close to it, by the time your pool pops unless you are doing a 10-12 pool. Even then your warren and gas would be still building and could be canceled. Likewise you should be able to spot the incoming lings on most maps through your overlord which I find much more preferable than the drone scout. There's a few map exceptions I can see the need for drone scouting, something like LT can maybe benefit from a check at the close positions to make sure you don't have someone rolling the dice on you (6/7 pooling on a 4 player map hoping for the close positions).
Still my point is there are clearly situations in ZvZ where most people agree that you don't drone scout, even you admit baneling openings don't really need a drone scout. So while I don't necessarily agree never scouting is good or that not scouting in some of the situations mentioned is good, I do think it's something that deserves more than an immediate dismissal (or acceptance) by people.
On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote: Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style."
How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
It isn't bad play if it works.. In SjoW's case I think we can safely conclude that it's working.
On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote: I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)
What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember)
Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused?
It was against slider I lost to 2 gw proxy, and after that game I ofcourse checked the replay and saw my mistake and started talking to merz how to deal with it, and we agreed upon scouting with marines outside your base is the most optimal play.
the helion scout sees if theres a expansion outside his base and i constantly patrol between xelnaga towers and opponents expasion/base to see exact timing of his expansion. If you mean hidden expansion, thats just putting yourself in real danger and I would be glad if someone tried something like that against me.
I was talking about hidden expansions, yeah. Think it might have been against MorroW, the same day, on Xel'Naga, you were kind of stalemated, and you didn't scout his 9'o clock expansion until it was fully saturated. Perhaps it had just gone up, I'm not sure. Anyway, you won that game, so well played.
On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote: Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style."
How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
Scouting at any cost isn't a "core component of being good". Sjow does scout, just not the way that most do, meaning it is a "style". You can send all of your scv's to scout and you'd know exactly what your opponent does. That would be bad.
I'm a terran myself, but I prefer FEing if I can so I will stick to scv scouting. But I enjoy your stream, and I really appreciate getting inside your head a little more due to your posts here. You've obviously thought this out.
I think the argument with adaptable vs unadaptable builds is pretty valid here. My comments are coming from a P point of view, where I typically scout at 6 or 7 (I know, I know), but 14 gate in all matchups. Because I 14 gate I have an immense amount of flexibility, which I like, allowing me to tech or unit up depending on what I see. As a player who likes to put on early pressure while transitioning to the difficult to deal with Stargate units (not in PvP though), I find that scouting is super important because of how I am playing the game.
If Sjow wants to 1/1/1 blindly, he has picked a good build to do it and it really makes sense that he wouldn't need to early scout because the hellion comes out early enough anyway to see the enemy's unit composition and numbers, which is really all you need to see; you don't need to see a single building to know what tech he has just by the force that comes to meet the hellion. That being said, there are P builds out there, even excluding the 2 gate proxy, that do really well against the 1/1/1 especially if a hellion is made blind. For example, my 14 gate allows me to field 3 phoenixes or 1 VR 1 phoenix by 7:15, coupled with about 4 zealots, and either 3 stalkers or 1 sentry 1 stalker. An all marine force from a 1/1/1 cannot survive this push, and the hellion becomes irrelevant, even moreso if more than 1 are produced. By focus firing the only anti-air units the T player has, every unit in the game that is on the field becomes irrelevant except the Void Ray. Even in this case, however, can you see that scouting won't get you anywhere? SCV scouting won't get far enough to tell you I have Stargate units, and any decent P player will displace their stargate so as to not show up on a typical scan. It sounds counterintuitive, but when you think about it, sometimes scouting is simply a waste of mining time because there is no possibility of gaining anything from it, which is what I think Sjow believes.
Do I scout? Yes, because I like to pressure early. If I FE every game, however, I don't think it would be wise to waste any mining time to find out little information that I am not even prepared to deal with. Similarly, if I have a good, all-purpose build that handles most things well and I am confident I can even handle cheese with it, would it be wise to waste any mining time to find out information that my build is incapable of exploiting early on? No.
On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote: Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style."
How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
It isn't bad play if it works.. In SjoW's case I think we can safely conclude that it's working.
Careful, 6 pooling works and it is most definitely bad play.
My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
with the way some people are thinking here it would be good to scout with one of your 6 starting workers just so you would gain as much information as possible
I don't get this So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me?
On December 15 2010 05:21 cosmincontra wrote: with the way some people are thinking here it would be good to scout with one of your 6 starting workers to gain as much information as possible
I scout at 6 or 7, usually 1 trip to the mineral patch and back, then out. It scouts for cheese, it scouts location, it allows me to harass T, and most importantly, it allows me to 14 gate, which negates any shortage of income that I incur from such an early scout compared to my opponent.
EDIT: Please, this is about sending an SCV to scout at 9 or 11. He has already stated he scouts with marine or hellion
On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote: My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote: My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
read the thread if you're really interested in knowing dude.
On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote: My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
Most people here talk about sjow's build, so your examples aren't very good. Of course there are builds where you have to scout early.
On December 15 2010 05:24 KCrazy wrote: I don't get this So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me?
I'd just like to add one more thing.
This does NOT necessarily apply to all the races. Especially not Zerg. Zerg is by definition a reactionary race in the early stages of the game, they try to cut every corner they can and they must do so, they're also the race who can adapt more quickly than the other two due to their larva mechanics. Please, please, do not mistake what Im saying as even a hint of calling zerg imbalanced. I'm merely saying that Zerg is a lot more reactionary than terran and thus naturally benefits more from scouting early on.
On December 15 2010 05:24 KCrazy wrote: I don't get this So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me?
for zerg its probably true, but because of things like bunkers, terrans using his build can scout early attacks relatively late and still have a good chance at holding them off
On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote: My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
You are missing the point.
In all the examples you mentioned above you are right, scouting is crucial. You fail to realize
1) Sjow does scout these things, he simply doesn't scout for the first 4 or 5 minutes of the game
2) None of these are builds that are optimized for non-early scouting, like I said previously, there are builds that don't benefit from an early scv scout (the 1/1/1 build) and thus the point where you adapt is either 1) if you scout something fishy around your base with your first marine 2) When your hellion comes out. Sjow does the 1/1/1 build, thus, he doesnt scout with an early scv, but instead uses his marine early on and later a hellion, followed up by a viking or banshee.
The 1/1/1 Unlocks everything the terran needs to adapt, you can get a raven out for a PDD and detection, you have the ability to research siege/blueflame, you can switch your techlabs around and get banshee with cloak, or stim early on. This is why scouting with your first scv with this build is unecessary, because it doesn't provide you with any information that is crucial for the way you play out YOUR build the first 5 minutes of the game.
Any information that is crucial before the 5 minute mark can be obtained with your first marine.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
On December 15 2010 05:24 KCrazy wrote: I don't get this So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me?
for zerg its probably true, but because of things like bunkers, terrans using his build can scout early attacks relatively late and still have a good chance at holding them off
It's still situationally mandatory for zerg. Several maps/starting locations don't demand you drone scout. Close Air ZvT LT you can sometimes get by without drone scouting due to overlords. ZvP you can if you scout close air first (or are on scrap station), but I don't recommend it. In my experience if you scout them close air and spot 2 rax there's really no need to send a drone scout to reconfirm that they do infact have 2 raxs and there's not really a way that a drone will live long enough to properly determine any more information beyond that. So you make your adjustments and use lings/overlords to do the follow up scouting later on. Though typically for me such a scout timing means more that the drone scout is 1/2 way across the map and you send them back rather than leave him out there to scout what you've already seen.
Had to create an account to say this, which is really stupid since noone is going to read it anyways because its my first post. And TL.net seems to be all'bout the elitism, which i like, but not when im trying to get MY point of view across..
Viewing this in poker-terms, S-JAOUUs play makes more sense to me. Right now, with the current state of the game and its players, it is simply +EV for HIM to do it like this. Could his BB/100 increase from scouting? Maybe, maybe not, not going to go into that.
However; When everyone starts cheesing him constantly it will tilt the scale more and more into the part of his range that is actually loosing and the EV will go down. At that point he might have to tighten up his range, open up his PFR or increase his 3be... You get it.
Or; he wont start loosing that much more and the game might just not work the way we think it does.
Its just going to be fun watching all the morons gloat at how "they knew it was stupid not to scout, he just survived on terran being OP" (which they clearly are btw, like omg!) when its really just a metagame thing and there is no objective right and wrong to it. You can even point out situations where scouting hurt you more than it helped you; When an opponent is putting down some sort of tech only to cancel it when your scv leaves and in all your scouting glory you go home and hard counter that n00b..
Stupid example right? God what a noob.
Again; right NOW, in the current state of the game and its players, this accounts for maybe 0.1% of losses? However, the point is that this number could change drasticly with patches, new race-mechanics in expansions etc. Imagine for instance one of the developers being high and giving probes a "Projection" ability that would be like the good old fake buildings from other games. This would increase that measly 0.1% to maybe 0.3%, the mind truely boogles.
Thats pretty much my point. That the mind truely boogles. Mostly at the state of team liquid. I mean, HuK right, he just totally hates select and threatend to kill China.
Considering the scout costs you almost nothing besides some APM in the beginning of the game where you don't know what to do with your apm anyway and are happy to get some warmup, I think you should scout. Some thread during beta pointed out how few minerals you actually lose doing it.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Doesn't really matter because if it works then it's good enough, the objective of the game to win, not play perfectly, spectators want to see perfect play but then it's not a game made for spectators so that doesn't matter either.
All Sjow needs to do is play to win, and he does this very well.
An interesting aspect of this that people haven't brought up is that NOT Scouting is also giving information to your opponent. A great example is ZvP, if you don't get 9 pylon scouted (or 11 probe on some smaller maps) then that gives you good information about what they're very likely doing. You know as zerg it's usually ++++ for them to want to block your expo or scout for early pool/aggression. Them not doing so instead tips you off that they might be doing something where they want you to expand (14Nexus, 2Gate, or cannon rush for example).
So when Sjow doesn't drone scout you he's basically telling you that he's opening something with a fast marine and/or fast hellion. That immediately tells you he's not going to be making a tech lab off the bat, and/or is probably throwing down a fast factory.
Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming
On December 14 2010 22:27 cArn- wrote: Just throwing that out there, I remember SjoW explaining this himself saying that he chooses not to scout because he prefers having solid builds able to hold anything rather than rely on scouting hurting his economy, especially when scouting is most of the time not telling much beside if the opponent is cheesing or not, and if your build is good you'll be able to hold it anyway, which joins what Nazgul was saying.
On December 15 2010 05:40 Quecks wrote: Had to create an account to say this, which is really stupid since noone is going to read it anyways because its my first post. And TL.net seems to be all'bout the elitism, which i like, but not when im trying to get MY point of view across..
Viewing this in poker-terms...
LoL !
You didn't view it in "poker-terms" though. Just say "probability terms" or something next time; it more accurately represents what you were trying to say.
On December 15 2010 05:48 Logo wrote: An interesting aspect of this that people haven't brought up is that NOT Scouting is also giving information to your opponent. A great example is ZvP, if you don't get 9 pylon scouted (or 11 probe on some smaller maps) then that gives you good information about what they're very likely doing. You know as zerg it's usually ++++ for them to want to block your expo or scout for early pool/aggression. Them not doing so instead tips you off that they might be doing something where they want you to expand (14Nexus, 2Gate, or cannon rush for example).
So when Sjow doesn't drone scout you he's basically telling you that he's opening something with a fast marine and/or fast hellion. That immediately tells you he's not going to be making a tech lab off the bat, and/or is probably throwing down a fast factory.
Yes but in the tournaments he plays everybody knows what he is doing anyway because he is a well known player, the no scout doesn't tell them anything they don't already know, most of the people will already know he is going 1/1/1 with no scout, and most still die by his hand so....
On December 15 2010 05:48 syllogism wrote: Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming
That's fine and most people would agree but if you are going to go that route and pick one scenario where Sjow's style is bad you have to look at all scenarios if you want answer the op's actual question.
On December 15 2010 05:48 Logo wrote: An interesting aspect of this that people haven't brought up is that NOT Scouting is also giving information to your opponent. A great example is ZvP, if you don't get 9 pylon scouted (or 11 probe on some smaller maps) then that gives you good information about what they're very likely doing. You know as zerg it's usually ++++ for them to want to block your expo or scout for early pool/aggression. Them not doing so instead tips you off that they might be doing something where they want you to expand (14Nexus, 2Gate, or cannon rush for example).
So when Sjow doesn't drone scout you he's basically telling you that he's opening something with a fast marine and/or fast hellion. That immediately tells you he's not going to be making a tech lab off the bat, and/or is probably throwing down a fast factory.
Yes but in the tournaments he plays everybody knows what he is doing anyway, the no scout doesn't tell them anything they don't already know, most of the people will already know he is going 1/1/1 with no scout, and most still die by his hand so....
Well yeah, saying someone who does a similar opening 100% of the time means their opponents know their opening 100% of the time doesn't really tell us much. But there's also nothing keeping Sjow from doing something else other than his style/preference. If a tournament win is on the line you aren't going to just flat out assume he's 100% going 1:1:1, plus for other players who may mix it up more my point still applies.
On December 15 2010 05:48 syllogism wrote: Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming
It has also been pointed out multiple times that there are advantages/solid reasons behind not scouting until your first marine or hellion. Your first hellion not getting to scout will tell you just as much information as your SCV being killed by the enemies first Stalker or Marine.
I like the idea of not scouting with your early worker. How many times have I heard in a cast "Well once this scout gets taken care of we'll see what build player X has in mind"? So if more often than not that scout will not see the setup of early tech, why bother sending it? Keep it at home, use the few extra minerals to get out an extra marine or quicker hellion, and then scout when you will actually be able to find useful information.
Many thanks to Sjow and Merz for coming to the thread and sharing their opinions and reasoning. It makes a lot of sense to me.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
On December 15 2010 05:48 syllogism wrote: Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming
It has also been pointed out multiple times that there are advantages/solid reasons behind not scouting until your first marine or hellion. Your first hellion not getting to scout will tell you just as much information as your SCV being killed by the enemies first Stalker or Marine.
I like the idea of not scouting with your early worker. How many times have I heard in a cast "Well once this scout gets taken care of we'll see what build player X has in mind"? So if more often than not that scout will not see the setup of early tech, why bother sending it? Keep it at home, use the few extra minerals to get out an extra marine or quicker hellion, and then scout when you will actually be able to find useful information.
Many thanks to Sjow and Merz for coming to the thread and sharing their opinions and reasoning. It makes a lot of sense to me.
At least they seem to have put some thought into it, something a lot of players would benefit from. Is it better to scout early? Perhaps, but at least players like Sjow keeps us questioning the things we do because it's just something we are "supposed" to be doing.
On December 15 2010 05:40 Quecks wrote: Had to create an account to say this, which is really stupid since noone is going to read it anyways because its my first post. And TL.net seems to be all'bout the elitism, which i like, but not when im trying to get MY point of view across..
Viewing this in poker-terms...
LoL !
You didn't view it in "poker-terms" though. Just say "probability terms" or something next time; it more accurately represents what you were trying to say.
Dude, i used alot of poker word right there, like 3be..
Yeah, probability. It really is a numbers game. You dont get 3200pts diamond league, i mean DIAMOND league ladies and gentlemen, or win multiple tours by winning that one game of cheese that you just haaave to scout before the 2min mark.
For now, the numbers are that this is a viable way to play. But what do i know, i only have 2 posts on this thing.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances.
Doing something optimally can sometimes out weigh the benefit of doing the optimal thing suboptimally. So don't take it as a given that you can just bend and break all your builds based on scouting information to get better results. A extreme example is if I 6 pool but scout 2 rax with a wall-off I can't just transition into a 2 hatch ling defense that seems to be optimal vs that sort of opening.
The opportunity cost is too great. No build is truly "safe". The said "economy lose" is worth much less than the potential lose of a game. Though, agreeing with Nazgul scouting holds different priorities for different races, but I just don't think Terran is really that safe.
On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this
Well that isn't very fair. For one, if they did post more and smacked down the tards maybe the tards wouldn't tard as much. Also, too easy to cop out as soon as a bad apple drops, which is inevitable on a forum where wide discussion takes place.
This idea of only top level players discussing things is fantastic but I am not about to pay money to read you and Idra's IM chats if that is where this road leads
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
Dude, do you honestly believe one would persue the 1-1-1 build if they scout the Proxy 2 gate with their marine. THAT'S the point you're missing, thats where you ADAPT, meaning of course I wont lay down a starport or ignore the fact I have a fucking 2 gate coming at my face. Again NO, I said if YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE 1-1-1 BUILD, it's not OPTIMAL to USE AN EARLY SCV SCOUT. I never anywhere stated that the 1-1-1 build is the optimal build to play, I said its SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, and in SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, scouting with your first scv is NOT OPTIMAL.
Added sick amounts of caps because you obviously have troubles reading what I say.
EDIT: Meaning = You don't play the same vs a 2 gate proxy as you do vs a 16 nexus, how are you not getting this?
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances.
Doing something optimally can sometimes out weigh the benefit of doing the optimal thing suboptimally. So don't take it as a given that you can just bend and break all your builds based on scouting information to get better results. A extreme example is if I 6 pool but scout 2 rax with a wall-off I can't just transition into a 2 hatch ling defense that seems to be optimal vs that sort of opening.
I see your argument, but this is a funny and silly example. 6 pool vs Terran is just dumb. All I'm saying is that a great player will find a hole in this 1-1-1 no scout until marine build, and take advantage of it. You simply cannot do the same build every game and expect it to work every single time. Sure you can have tons and tons of success like Kyrix, but eventually your build will be broken and countered.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
There is no optimal build vs. everything. Scouting without adjusting anything isn't optimal too.
Sjow has one build which is pretty safe but not OPTIMAL against everything.
Obviously you can still win without scouting, but you're not winning because of that extra SCV, you're winning because you're just better anyways. I don't think successes with this strategy really give it any validity.
The effects of both strategies are clear so this should be an easy thing to compare. You can easily watch the game and see if 1 SCV would make a difference. You can also watch a game and see if scouting made a difference.
Empirically, you will find an SCV will almost never make a difference in who wins while scouting will occasionally make a difference in who wins.
Ridiculous tactic outside of possible specific strategies based around it. While scouting is very overrated and often won't change anything, it is still far more likely to be game-changing than the mining time on your SCV. If you want to try to be cute, though, go ahead I guess.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
Sending an early scout isn't playing optimally either since you lose mining time. There is no such thing as an optimal build. If you are comfortable playing a certain style then you will probably be better at performing using that style. If SjoW feels comfortable with first getting his tech, then responding to his opponent then that is probably the way he will win the most number of games.
Also if SjoW does some cheese build 20% of his games then going nexus before gate, 1/5 games you will be guaranteed a loss. In 4/5 games you will be marginally ahead but might lose that lead if he uses his tech to harass you correctly. That would not necessarily be worth the risk.
On December 15 2010 06:17 DrainX wrote: Sending an early scout isn't playing optimally either since you lose mining time. There is no such thing as an optimal build. If you are comfortable playing a certain style then you will probably be better at performing using that style. If SjoW feels comfortable with first getting his tech, then responding to his opponent then that is probably the way he will win the most number of games.
Do you even know what the word optimal means? Scouting early has more benefits than drawbacks, so it's optimal.
The word you're looking for is perfect. Yeah, it's not perfect.
On December 15 2010 06:17 DrainX wrote: Sending an early scout isn't playing optimally either since you lose mining time. There is no such thing as an optimal build. If you are comfortable playing a certain style then you will probably be better at performing using that style. If SjoW feels comfortable with first getting his tech, then responding to his opponent then that is probably the way he will win the most number of games.
Do you even know what the word optimal means? Scouting early has more benefits than drawbacks, so it's optimal.
The word you're looking for is perfect. Yeah, it's not perfect.
Scouting early does not necessarily in all situations have more benefits than drawbacks. That was kind of the point of this thread.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
Dude, do you honestly believe one would persue the 1-1-1 build if they scout the Proxy 2 gate with their marine. THAT'S the point you're missing, thats where you ADAPT, meaning of course I wont lay down a starport or ignore the fact I have a fucking 2 gate coming at my face. Again NO, I said if YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE 1-1-1 BUILD, it's not OPTIMAL to USE AN EARLY SCV SCOUT. I never anywhere stated that the 1-1-1 build is the optimal build to play, I said its SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, and in SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, scouting with your first scv is NOT OPTIMAL.
Added sick amounts of caps because you obviously have troubles reading what I say.
EDIT: Meaning = You don't play the same vs a 2 gate proxy as you do vs a 16 nexus, how are you not getting this?
There's no need to talk to someone like this. Take it to PM or ignore it if you can't have a civil discussion.
There's no reason not to scout unless you lack the APM or something. It forces you to do builds that are "good against everything", where as if you just scouted you could actually do what's right against what your opponent's actually doing.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
Dude, do you honestly believe one would persue the 1-1-1 build if they scout the Proxy 2 gate with their marine. THAT'S the point you're missing, thats where you ADAPT, meaning of course I wont lay down a starport or ignore the fact I have a fucking 2 gate coming at my face. Again NO, I said if YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE 1-1-1 BUILD, it's not OPTIMAL to USE AN EARLY SCV SCOUT. I never anywhere stated that the 1-1-1 build is the optimal build to play, I said its SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, and in SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, scouting with your first scv is NOT OPTIMAL.
Added sick amounts of caps because you obviously have troubles reading what I say.
EDIT: Meaning = You don't play the same vs a 2 gate proxy as you do vs a 16 nexus, how are you not getting this?
There's no need to talk to someone like this. Take it to PM or ignore it if you can't have a civil discussion.
It's hard to remaing civil when he puts false words into my mouth and makes false assumptions, all while he isn't even remotely trying to read what I'm saying. But yes, you are right, I will refrain from stuff like that in the future, it's just frustratring that he keeps making stuff up.
In the end; This is how SjoW plays, theres valid reasons for it, I'm not claiming its optimal, I'm not claiming it's the best build out there and the koreans should play like it. I'm just saying there's a lot of thought behind the reason why he plays like this. Scouting or not is situational and depends on what type of player and what type of build you are opting for. All in all, if you can't see valid reasons to why you shouldn't scout with an scv in the beginning, then go ahead and scout.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances.
Doing something optimally can sometimes out weigh the benefit of doing the optimal thing suboptimally. So don't take it as a given that you can just bend and break all your builds based on scouting information to get better results. A extreme example is if I 6 pool but scout 2 rax with a wall-off I can't just transition into a 2 hatch ling defense that seems to be optimal vs that sort of opening.
I see your argument, but this is a funny and silly example. 6 pool vs Terran is just dumb. All I'm saying is that a great player will find a hole in this 1-1-1 no scout until marine build, and take advantage of it. You simply cannot do the same build every game and expect it to work every single time. Sure you can have tons and tons of success like Kyrix, but eventually your build will be broken and countered.
I 100% agree, but I don't see it as the point of the thread. The question that I see raised by this thread is more about whether or not some builds can get away without worker scouting. It doesn't really matter that SjoW might 100% 1/1/1 without drone scouting, all that matters is he serves as an example case of how someone has a build that is doing well without them scv scouting and whether or not this player would be doing even better, the same, or slightly worse if he decided to worker scout while doing this build. From that we can maybe start to see how/when we can cut worker scouting to get a better boost in our % to win.
On December 15 2010 06:28 sjschmidt93 wrote: That sounds completely ridiculous.
There's no reason not to scout unless you lack the APM or something. It forces you to do builds that are "good against everything", where as if you just scouted you could actually do what's right against what your opponent's actually doing.
god >< Like we're actualy discussing the fact of NOT SCOUTING AT ALL. No, we're discussing the fact of not sending an scv 3mn into the game and replacing it with a marine @3mn45 and an hellion @5mn. We're discussing pros and cons, hoping to produce some interresting results. We're not discussing the marvelous idea of not scouting at all.
I'm not sure if it's entirely related, but I don't worker scout with Zerg while opening with 12pool. I get the first pair of lings in time anyway, and when it's a 4-spawn map I can figure my opponent's location out by the timing of his scout.
As Terran I still would probably scout, but I also have done things like 2rax stim timing -> FE against Protoss where I'll do the same thing no matter what(I'll still use one scan, but I don't think a SCV scout is necessary here).
Overall yeah I don't think it's optimal every time but he clearly has a plan that he's going to be able to follow. He also most likely will figure things out by what he sees heading towards his base and so on. Marine scout isn't all that late, either.
On December 15 2010 06:45 Entertaining wrote: this just proves sc2 takes even less skill doesnt it? though i would proxi him 5 out of 5 games if he truly doesnt scout.
On December 15 2010 06:48 AndAgain wrote: So if I open with 3 gate robo, would it be ok not to scout until I get the observer out? Somehow I doubt this can work for protoss or zerg.
I'd say the Toss equivalent would be more like scouting with your first Stalker. And as for Zerg, Merz pointed out that early scouting is much more important due to Zerg being a far more reactionary race.
So, basically, all his accomplishments are in tourneys bigger names don't compete in? I'm still not convinced his non-scouting is amazing.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, is that his non-scouting isn't some super innovative miracle that people need to be obsessing over. I want to see him try it in a GSL or something because yeah, while Craftcups are nice and all, they clearly don;t have the same level of competition so he can take more risks.
On December 15 2010 06:53 andrewwiggin wrote: Haha.
I know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout.
But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/
Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius....
Well SjoW is probably one of Europes most accomplished terrans in sc2, winning several offline events and a huge number of online cups, also doing well in ladder. I think it's interesting if he choose to play a certain way.
Even though some people shouldn't comment at all but still did, this thread gave me the info I was looking for (thx sjow & merz for that).
So, basically, all his accomplishments are in tourneys bigger names don't compete in? I'm still not convinced his non-scouting is amazing.
Um, we're talking foreigners and his match list is full of the absolute top europeans or if you don't watch europeans play he's got players like select, qxc, kiwikaki, machine etc beat in there as well. He's obviously a very good players and he's not trying to force anyone into not scouting, it's just what happens to work for him.
On December 15 2010 07:11 Krigwin wrote: How do you pronounce Sjow?
Is it "si-jow" or is it "ess-jow" or what? This has been bothering me for a long time.
Assuming there's not something else behind his nick, I'm guessing it's pronounced show. Sj in swedish = sh in english.
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
This pretty much sums up the whole discussion imho.
Seriously, there are some very very rare cases, where a very very experienced player(e.g. Flash) can decide not to scout early with an SCV because he's 95% sure that nothing can happen to him until point X in time when he will definitely scout all that he needs to. But that's just it.
99.99% you benefit from the early scout more than from the minerals you save and 100% of the time you have the potential to just utterly deny what your opponent is planning based on your scouting info. Not to mention stuff like harassing with the probe, thus potentially throwing your opponents build slightly off, maybe even killing a worker, etc. Maybe you can even hide your worker scout to later scout their base for free basically(even happens in some pro games). It's also important to note that scouting alone doesn't always give you all the info you need, but in conjunction with factors like map, position(which you don't even know if you don't SCV scout on 4 player maps), etc. it does give you a very good idea of what your opponents is likely to do. There's so much more to say about this, but you get my drill.
Oh, and one last thing. There's nothing more satisfying in Starcraft or Starcraft 2 than reading your opponent like a book and thus totally destroying him.
Edit: One more thing about scanning, because some people have been mentioning it in this thread. A well timed scan here and there is almost always beneficial and worth the money. Why? Because it's not just about what you see, but also what you don't see that can give you a lot of info. Let's say you scan with your 2nd 50 energy on your orbital and you only see one completed gate in your P opponent's base. It usually means he's either doing a tech build or a 1gate expand. Now combine this with an scv/marine scout to verify if he has an expansion or not, and you can be pretty sure to expect either DTs or Void Rays, both of which can be responded to similarly.
Sjow is top 5 EU and I'd say top 10 in NA&EU combined.
I'm surprised by the amount of closed-minded nay-saying in this thread, even by people with red usernames. Odd. But the contributions of Sjow, Trump and Merz make up for that.
This is a subtle debate where both sides have points. As Trump pointed out in a well-thought out post, you lose around 100-50 minerals. In the early game, that makes a difference. If you lose the scouting SCV, it matters even more.
In the Undeniable tourney last week, Sjow played Ranged (#18 NA ladder) who said, 'I'll teach you not to scout'. Ranged tried to cheese Sjow several times but failed (including non-scouted proxy gates).
This no-scouting has obviously been thought about carefully, so the nay-sayers should think about their counter-arguments equally carefully.
I don't get how not scouting could be beneficial. I guess you can make the argument that it isn't very detrimental (though I don't agree), but that it's beneficial? I think it's always going to be good to have some idea what your opponent is doing.
If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story; He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion. And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game
On December 15 2010 07:22 ksn wrote: If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story; He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion. And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game
In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense.
On December 15 2010 05:06 SmoKim wrote: between this post and your Terran whine blog, no wonder you get made so much fun of on SotG podcast and on TL in general. Chill off with the negative attitude
Guess you lost the humor in avilo's post. I found it hysterically funny. As a matter a fact his post was one of the few "chilled" posts I read in a plethora of angry posts. And yet he gets banned for being funny and you don't for totally being off topic. Oh well.
As far as scouting v non-scouting, I can only base my opinion on what I've seen and agree with most of what InControl put forth; however, after reading most of the posts, (some of which were totally inflammatory) I didn't see where anyone said "DON'T ever scout." Which, imo, would be insane.
Just because SjoW doesn't scout immediately, doesn't make it a perfect strategy. It is his method of operation and works for him - or at least has thus far.
Isn't the game, after all, about trying different strategies until you find one that works for you?
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.
This pretty much sums up the whole discussion imho.
Seriously, there are some very very rare cases, where a very very experienced player(e.g. Flash) can decide not to scout early with an SCV because he's 95% sure that nothing can happen to him until point X in time when he will definitely scout all that he needs to. But that's just it.
...
Oh, and one last thing. There's nothing more satisfying in Starcraft or Starcraft 2 than reading your opponent like a book and thus totally destroying him.
That chill quote is kind of dumb, more of a catchy little one-liner from some bad dr.phil-type show, since the benefit of not scouting isnt apparent while losing your whole fucking base is.
Those minerals saved could enable you that expo at the 10min mark, 2 extra marines that could prove usefull, either by holding xelnagas, scouting, giving the edge in skirmishes that eventually lead you to getting the hold of the game and winning. There is really no way to know what the benefit was exactly.
Only thing we have to judge this is the success of the people doing it. And even then its not really possible to know because, hang on, its such a small detail it really doesnt matter that much. But sjow seems to be doing quit alright for himself, im not saying this is because of the no-scv-scouting, probably his insane APM thats the reason for his success.
No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous.
Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs.
On December 15 2010 07:41 Manifesto7 wrote: No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous.
Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs.
I appreciate the move, but this thread is only referring to worker scouting so stuff like dts or double expands are outside the scope of what this affects, doubly so since the example build is 1/1/1 and can (and usually does if I understand correctly) get out an early raven.
On December 15 2010 07:22 ksn wrote: If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story; He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion. And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game
In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense.
Wow, didnt know you thought SjoW was THAT good? 3200pts and placeing pretty much every tour he plays with that much of a self-imposed handicap? Damn. Imagine if he just saw that gateway and gas.
There's no benefit to not early scouting, however with Scans, and a double Orbital build, Terran can fairly confidently skip the early scout and simply scan later. But no matter how good an opening build one has not doing an early scout will leave you open to cheese.
On December 15 2010 07:22 ksn wrote: If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story; He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion. And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game
In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense.
Wow, didnt know you thought SjoW was THAT good? 3200pts and placeing pretty much every tour he plays with that much of a self-imposed handicap? Damn. Imagine if he just saw that gateway and gas.
It's not that much of a handicap really. Unless I'm doing the math wrong... if you had a 51% chance (+1% because you didn't scout) to win 9/10 and a 30% chance to win 1/10 (-20% chance because you did worker scout) then your overall win rate would be 48.9%. If it was an ~10% or less disadvantage then his overall win rate would be equal to or greater than 50%.
Of course in reality if it's a 20% weakness then opponents knowing his trends can exploit that so it happens more often than 1/10, but that's a different point all together.
On December 15 2010 07:41 Manifesto7 wrote: No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous.
Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs.
This thread is more about a specific build and scouting with an early scv (you won't see dt tech with this scv anyway) and if you really need that early scouting information.
Nobody wants to apply it as a principle to general gameplay.
On December 15 2010 07:41 Manifesto7 wrote: No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous.
Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs.
Again, not really saying he wins 100% of games, in the numbers game it might be an advantage at the moment. No one knows, despite made up statistics.
No ones saying this should be a principle of anything. I just dont understand the extremes, on either side. Actually i havent seen any extremes on the side of the no scout. Mostly people arguing from what is evident. That it works for him. Would he be better of scouting? Who cares? Hes pretty much destroying as is.
Games like this isnt about optimal play, its about winning, as have been stated many times before.
On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote: Why doesn't he scout?
Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it.
Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard.
On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote: Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play.
Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here:
EDIT: Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line.
I clicked on that link and got depressed by all the blue I saw...
If I played terran I wouldn't scout either. I'd just turtle all game. Not much can threaten a turtled terran. Then when we are both maxed, I would start spamming PF's and turrets on the map.
It's not that much of a handicap really. Unless I'm doing the math wrong... if you had a 51% chance (+1% because you didn't scout) to win 9/10 and a 30% chance to win 1/10 (-20% chance because you did worker scout) then your overall win rate would be 48.9%. If it was an ~10% or less disadvantage then his overall win rate would be equal to or greater than 50%.
Of course in reality if it's a 20% weakness then opponents knowing his trends can exploit that so it happens more often than 1/10, but that's a different point all together.
I dont know where he got the statistics from, but they sounded very official, so you better note that he said 20+ percent. So you have to do some sort of mathmatisism on that variable aswell brah.
On December 15 2010 07:22 ksn wrote: If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story; He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion. And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game
In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense.
On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote: Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style."
How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
Yeah and guess what, even with this bad play he has already still won more relevant tournaments that you will ever win, at lest you can chitchat on forums and try to look smart to make you feel bit better about it.
Bad play would be no scouting at all, scouting later doesn't mean he's not doing it, the only thing I find questionnable is not scouting around and in the base for proxies at least, and you can still hold these kind of things without scouting it anyway.
Knowledge is power so I think Sjow style is bad and you need that scout no matter what.In SC1 pros try to keep their scout alive as much as possible even use bugs to get a scouting info.SC2 is in a early state so every race has only 2 or 3 builds so maybe that is why he doesn't scout he is sure that his build is solid.Anyway another thing is that StarCraft is a game of counters if you know what your opponent is doing you will have a good counter so that leads to my first phrase knowledge is power ( hide it well )
EDIT: and i think SjoW is no where near the Koreans or the other top terrans.
^ What Quecks was saying in a snarky way that got him banned was that these numbers are just pulled out of thin air. Which they are.
The pro-early scouters have not really addressed--in any careful way--Sjow's argument that i) discovering cheese doesn't really affect his particular 1-1-1 build, ii) opponents' build orders can be discovered by sending marines&hellions across the map.
Its funny how incontrol thinks his contribution to tl is so valuable and everyone who isn't pro is an idiot and shouldn't post. Just look at his contribution to this thread, nothing but flaming and retarded hyperbole. This was actually a decent discussion before he arrived with all his bullshit. Either he is a troll (maybe he wants the publicity?), or he is just a sad little man with some real e-peen delusions.
On December 15 2010 08:04 SmoKim wrote: Sjow just destroyed White-Ra with his late scout style ez-peacy. Kid got talent no matter what people think
Ya, and two games later Adelscott wiped the floor with him and before that he lost pretty badly to Darkforce. So...? What are you getting at? No one's denying that Sjow is a good player, we're saying that not SCV scouting in almost every game is not a very good idea.
On December 15 2010 08:35 ironside wrote: Its funny how incontrol thinks his contribution to tl is so valuable and everyone who isn't pro is an idiot and shouldn't post. Just look at his contribution to this thread, nothing but flaming and retarded hyperbole. This was actually a decent discussion before he arrived with all his bullshit. Either he is a troll (maybe he wants the publicity?), or he is just a sad little man with some real e-peen delusions.
why flame a well known, respected, heavily contributing community member? I personally love seeing the rare threads like this where you have top players (Sjow, Inc, Merz, etc) and top forum veterans (chill, mani, Inc again, etc) all having a discussion.
Sjow's no early scouting style seems open to abuse. In a ladder game, his protoss opponent did a double proxy gate build and waited for his fourth zealot to pop before moving in. Sjow lost without being able to put up much of a fight. An early scout could have let him start up a bunker while the second pair of zealots were still building. It's much easier to put up a bunker facing two zealots as opposed to four.
Thank you to sjow and merz for the insights in this thread, (mostly) patient and thorough as it is. The amount of people reiterating the same opinions over and over without bothering to read the thread is depressing. If the thread is 20 pages long, probably someone has contributed an off-hand dismissal like the one you're about to post..
A thread like this is a great opportunity to question fundamental assumptions like "8-9-10-11-12 probe = scout". Dismissing it off-hand just shows a lack of imagination and premature confidence in how the game is supposed to play out. It's still early days
It would be interesting to hear the opinion of the early posters like nazgul and incontrol in light of the explanations of sjow and merz. Interesting!
Just of of curiosity, does anyone know how Sjow deals with random players? Does he scout with his scv or wait for marine(s) to scout or wait for their scout to come?
On December 14 2010 21:36 scion wrote: I don't see why you would ever forgo early scouting. You literally don't lose anything by doing it and the potential information you could gather are amazing. (early double gas, 2 rax before orbital, 2gate, proxy anything, cannon rush..)
You also can get control of xel'naga watch tower or leave your worker in front of their base to see when they are moving out with what composition.
There is absolutely no reason not to scout. ever.
I"m not expert, but this pretty much sums it up for me.. i suck at scouting unfortunately and my macro could use some work.. i guess that's why I'm here..
It would be interesting to hear the opinion of the early posters like nazgul and incontrol in light of the explanations of sjow and merz. Interesting!
I am pretty confident that incontrol is not prepared to concede even the most minor points to Sjow (I'd love to be proven wrong). It seems his pre-concieved notion of the matter will not budge an inch (unless just possibly at some point down the road he realizes there are situations he should leave his probes on the mineral line). It is just a matter of his personality. Frankly I'm glad he left the thread when he did before making even more out of place elitist posts.
Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting.
in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed...
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting.
in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed...
Can you show the math/proof behind these numbers please?
The main point is that Sjow would benefit from early scouting more often rather than never early scouting.
He wins games that much is true. But having seen a lot of his losses, wow. His losses are incredibly brutal to watch. Like there's no reason to have lost the way he's lost many of these games. I'd feel he'd be an absolute beast if he incorporated some form of early scouting. Maybe not all the time, but do it more often than never.
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting.
in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed...
being a whole dropship worth of marines ahead of your opponent is a lot more than a 400 mineral advantage. To get 8 marines ahead you would have had to build an additional rax, so
150 minerals for a rax some minutes ago, which cost let's say + 50 minerals more worth of scv mining time + 100 minerals for a medevac + 400 = 8*(50/marine) + 200 = 2*100/supply depot) + 40 lost minerals of scv mining time for depots because your saturation is high now) + 100 mineral fudge factor to account for the minerals forgone (or scv's invested in depending on how you look at it) to get the gas for the dropship
so I've got a very rough total of just over 1000 minerals. Forgoing the early scout is about getting a miniscule advantage early to have a miniscule advantage in early battles, which often decides the game. Based on pretty quick diminishing returns of adding workers I don't think you're really gonna get the snowball effect you're implying.
1 Sjow doesn't scout because he doesn't need to? 2 People can scout if they want to 3 INcontrol and Avilo have a too big ego, what is a bit annoying. What is wrong with your attitudes, maybe a lack of attention. Well certainly for avilo, making such an awful flaming post.
Never seen so many huge ego's and I play counter-strike lol... Sjow's method works for him currently, whats the problem? Maybe he's ahead of his time, or maybe in the future he will start to scout early, who knows.
Although I'm not sure if people that know what they are talking about still read here....
Wouldn't it be advantageous to scout at the very least on steppes, but also on meta due to the danger of close positions? I'm talking about the build MC used against Jinro, the chrono-boosted zealot BEFORE core, then the fast 2nd zealot into the zealot/zealot/stalker harassment force. (Sorry for spoilers, but the game was played a good while ago....). The scouting SCV would be able to exactly tell you this: is my opponent making a quick zealot delaying his tech. Because in this case I think you'd want to throw down a bunker immediately, or am I mistaken? Maybe it's because I play against players not used to this kind of aggressive PvT harassment, but normally I can do damage even WHEN I'm scouted.
In other words since I haven't you/Sjow seen defending vs this: how "would" you defend against the quick double zealot stalker without any early scouting intel? Because if you are unlucky, your first marine gets picked off right when checking for proxies (which you said you'd do and which I indeed saw you do on stream).
On December 15 2010 00:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I'm talking about early game scout people. Read my posts please. This is why it's being considered to have a forum where people read what top gamers say and not be allowed to interact. It's actually impossible to post without 30 people being dumb about it.
The irony here, which you seemed to have completely missed, is that your primary antagonist in this thread is not the countless noobs; it is Nazgul. Are you suggesting Nazgul would not be allowed to post in said "top gamer" forum?
There are clear pros and cons to early working scouting.You seem to think that the pros completely outweigh the cons, regardless. Others would disagree. At least one player has learned how to take advantage of the pros such that it at least balances out for them.
And when you consider a cheesy VR rush: 1) you're not going to scout that with your early worker unless your opponent is terrible, and 2) consider that the minerals saved could have gone to a blind starport build.
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting.
in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed...
Assuming constant SCV production, you are only ahead of the SCV scouter until you reach saturation, which will start to happen once you get 2 worker on each patch (around 22 SCVs). The third worker does not contribute fully. But in that time, this takes about 5 minutes, you will have mined about 200 extra minerals more than your opponent, or just under 6% more.
This is not as insignificant as some suggest, and it is certainly not the "1%" that Chill posted.
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting.
in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed...
Assuming constant SCV production, you are only ahead of the SCV scouter until you reach saturation, which will start to happen once you get 2 worker on each patch (around 22 SCVs). The third worker does not contribute fully. But in that time, this takes about 5 minutes, you will have mined about 200 extra minerals more than your opponent, or just under 6% more.
This is not as insignificant as some suggest, and it is certainly not the "1%" that Chill posted.
Exactly. And those 200 extra minerals might enable you to take a much earlier expansion which will boost your economy even further.
"No Scouting" is an extremely poor thing to call it IMO. It's just "no worker scout". If you're scouting for no reason then you're just wasting mining time, I don't see how anyone could argue with that. Whether or not you need a worker scout depends entirely on your build and its weaknesses.
But everyone needs to scout. That doesn't mean always seeing their base directly, you can glean info from units you see, the front wall, expansion timings, etc.
Anyway I vote "yes", there is obviously a tangible benefit to no worker scout, but if you actually mean "no scouting" as the topic suggests then I would definitely say no, unless you're doing some sort of all-in that will not change regardless of what you scout.
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting.
in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed...
..what? Where in your ass did you pull this out. Not to mention you force them to pull a worker when you get there. And you won't lose to proxy cheeses as well. With a lot of experience, you can also start being a little greedier and squeeze out extra workers. This is especially essential in ZvZ. You can also constantly harass workers on the mineral line constantly and make him stop mining periodically.
EDIT: Just in general, I just can't imagine people can make the argument that I don't have to scout because my BO is so good. Guess what, you can make your BO even better if you scout. There's no way a BO is solid enough to either defend a cheese AND if an opponent goes super greedy and gets a FE and come out ahead yourself. Having a scout will help you tweak your solid BO to something better. Well worth the scout.
On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote: In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
A proper proxied gate will kill you as terran before that marine pops. Period. Watch MC vs Marineking game 3 on blistering sands. MC owns MK and has two zealots before Marineking has his second zealot out. The best part? MC only made one gate.
MK would have been able to wall if he had sent his SCV to scout after the depot, as is standard for early SCV scouts. Instead, he sent it after the barracks. He also didn't scout behind his natural for proxies and paid for it.
So, in this case you can draw an analogy to SjoW's no early SCV play. The result would have been identical: a 4 minute 50 second win for MC.
This thread is hilarious; so many bs arguments going back on forth. Isn't the point that SjoW doesn't think he needs to "worker scout" because he isn't going to adjust his build even if he sees a missing pylon. He is still going to do the same build vs a proxy play or vs standard opening. He scouts later on to see tech?
Whether or not this is a good strategy or not the fact remains - if you scout, and don't plan on adjusting your build no matter what; someone please tell me what the point of worker scouting would be in that situation?
The irony here, which you seemed to have completely missed, is that your primary antagonist in this thread is not the countless noobs; it is Nazgul. Are you suggesting Nazgul would not be allowed to post in said "top gamer" forum?
Are you serious? Did you read Nazgul or iNcontrol's post. iNcontrol even directly addressed Nazgul's post in his response. How do you get that Nazgul and iNcontrol are arguing head to head? They are saying different things.
iNcontrol - if you know what you are looking for and can adjust your build to what you see; you must must must scout with that initial worker.
Nazgul - if you don't know what you are looking for and you aren't going to adjust your build NO MATTER WHAT there is something to be said for not scouting - don't just scout because everyone else does it, know what you are looking for
On December 16 2010 13:13 bkrow wrote: This thread is hilarious; so many bs arguments going back on forth. Isn't the point that SjoW doesn't think he needs to "worker scout" because he isn't going to adjust his build even if he sees a missing pylon. He is still going to do the same build vs a proxy play or vs standard opening. He scouts later on to see tech?
Whether or not this is a good strategy or not the fact remains - if you scout, and don't plan on adjusting your build no matter what; someone please tell me what the point of worker scouting would be in that situation?
The irony here, which you seemed to have completely missed, is that your primary antagonist in this thread is not the countless noobs; it is Nazgul. Are you suggesting Nazgul would not be allowed to post in said "top gamer" forum?
Are you serious? Did you read Nazgul or iNcontrol's post. iNcontrol even directly addressed Nazgul's post in his response. How do you get that Nazgul and iNcontrol are arguing head to head? They are saying different things.
iNcontrol - if you know what you are looking for and can adjust your build to what you see; you must must must scout with that initial worker.
Nazgul - if you don't know what you are looking for and you aren't going to adjust your build NO MATTER WHAT there is something to be said for not scouting - don't just scout because everyone else does it, know what you are looking for
One thing to point out though, as I mentioned in my previous post, is that there are some builds that will cause 1/1/1 without a scout to auto-lose. Proxy gate is one of those, despite the assertion that the first marine will be out in time to react. This is only true if the proxy is in the middle of the map, as opposed to in your nat, for example.
I feel that on a 4 player map you need to find your opponenet, Other than that scouting messses me up sometimes because I can't place buildings and scout at the sametime. I really just need gosu multitasking skills but its definately an area in need of improvement from me
The poll simply asks "Is there any benefit of not scouting early?"
So simple answer, yes there is a benefit of not scouting early (one extra worker to gather minerals with).
However, the benefit of the information provided from that scout pointing the direction of what build they're going outweighs the extra income from that worker mining instead.
On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote: You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway.
What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms?
I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol.
if you get bane busted roach busted or nydus wormed you coulda scouted with a marine or a scan with plenty of time to react. dont have to use an scv. specially when its only gonna see a hatch first or pool first opening and nothing more.
I just realised... I don't actually see anything worthwhile when i scout with early worker...
The MAX your gonna see TvP is 2 gates 2 gas 3-4 pylons and a bunch of probes. At this stage you can really only chrono 3 things. Probes (doesnt indicate anything) Gateway ( either hes going for early agression or just wants the stalker to kill your scv faster) cyber ( so you want the most important upgrade in the game faster? great.)
The MAX your gonna see TvT is 2rax, 15 cc, or 1 rax gas. All of which you can pretty much scout with marine or hellion, and with the 100-150 minerals you saved you can get an earlier CC vs 15 cc or a bunker.
TvZ i think you need the most scouting. vs 6 pool it definetely helps walling off faster, your first marine isnt gonna see anything. It actually gives ALOT to know whether they took drones off gas after a 14gas 13 pool after 100 gas (banelings bust is highly likely when they dont). 15 hatch should also be dealt with easier by knowing no fast tech or aggression is coming.
On December 16 2010 14:09 Akuemon wrote: I just realised... I don't actually see anything worthwhile when i scout with early worker...
The MAX your gonna see TvP is 2 gates 2 gas 3-4 pylons and a bunch of probes. At this stage you can really only chrono 3 things. Probes (doesnt indicate anything) Gateway ( either hes going for early agression or just wants the stalker to kill your scv faster) cyber ( so you want the most important upgrade in the game faster? great.)
The MAX your gonna see TvT is 2rax, 15 cc, or 1 rax gas. All of which you can pretty much scout with marine or hellion, and with the 100-150 minerals you saved you can get an earlier CC vs 15 cc or a bunker.
TvZ i think you need the most scouting. vs 6 pool it definetely helps walling off faster, your first marine isnt gonna see anything. It actually gives ALOT to know whether they took drones off gas after a 14gas 13 pool after 100 gas (banelings bust is highly likely when they dont). 15 hatch should also be dealt with easier by knowing no fast tech or aggression is coming.
Lol really? Scouting with your early worker is more about what you don't see.. missing pylon means he is probably proxy gating you somewhere or maybe there's a missing barracks? Early worker might also tell you double gas which usually signifies some early teching; in the case of T if you see double gas you might want to be thinking banshee?
Early scouting has its benefits if you know what you are going to see. Again, what you don't see is sometimes a lot more important than what you do see.. spot the cheese yo!
SjoW illustrates perfectly what is wrong with this game. I have a lot of respect for him as a player and he's got great game sense, micro and timing. However, picking a blind build order and going with it 100% and relying on the clock to figure out when to attack is just lame, sorry.
Lots of terrible discussion-ruining thread titles lately. Next it's going to be like "NEW NO-FORCEFIELD PROTOSS STRAT" about a protoss build where at the ten minute mark you have two fewer sentries than the standard number in order to get some other thing faster and every post is going to be BUT OP, YOU NEED FORCEFIELDS, THEY HELP YOU!
EPT
