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On December 14 2010 22:06 daxile wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 22:02 Numy wrote:
I think Sjow has tons of bad habits that people shouldn't really emulate. He is a really solid player though but think if he got rid of those habits he would be far better. His lack of scouting isn't a "bad habit", he deliberately does it because he has a reason. There are so many players who don't know why scouting is important yet they do it anyway simply because everyone tells them to. Scouting/non-scouting isn't the issue here, it's really why you play the way you play, SjoW has his own style and it's worked very well for him thus far. He's beaten so many top names with relative ease and if he believes non-scouting is the way to go for him, so be it. Keep in mind he develops his own builds, he puts a lot of thought into what he does. Many people just blindly do what they see in replays or see on a strategy forum without understanding why the build works. However, does this mean that players shouldn't scout? absolutely not, scouting hands down is one of the most vital aspects of the game. However if you're at a level where you can sack an aspect of the game to improve another aspect, then that's on you. For 95% of the people on TL here, scouting is a necessity.
I didn't mean his lack of early scouting is a bad habit. There are other things he does that people shouldn't really try copy. Like his massive queuing mid-late game and his lack of army hotkeys , just to name a few. His style works for him, doesn't mean it will work for others.
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On December 14 2010 22:24 Herculix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 22:18 imyzhang wrote:On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote:On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote:
You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway. What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms? I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol. what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting. On December 14 2010 22:08 xzidez wrote:On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote:On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote:
You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway. What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on.... actually at first i got the honest impression that that was what the thread was about. sounds crazy, but i've seen enough threads that make me go "WHAT?" to believe it. i do recall having watched sjows games where he will, for instance, scout with a hellion or something, but OP makes no mention of that. he simply asks if not scouting is the future, which is obviously never going to happen for reasons already stated.
Op:
Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play?
Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows?
he asks if SJOW's style of no scouting (which means lack of the first scv scout we're accustomed to seeing) will become the way of the future, not what you said.
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Just throwing that out there, I remember SjoW explaining this himself saying that he chooses not to scout because he prefers having solid builds able to hold anything rather than rely on scouting hurting his economy, especially when scouting is most of the time not telling much beside if the opponent is cheesing or not, and if your build is good you'll be able to hold it anyway, which joins what Nazgul was saying.
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On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
But you lose so little from it, it just seems stupid not to do something like that if it won't cost you anything. Like there's a lot of important things to see even if you can't adapt your BO. If I'm playing vP, for example, I wanna see where he places his early pylons to know roughly where to scan. Also if I don't see a second pylon in base I know Protoss is proxying something, which can make or break a lot of games. And again, all it costs me is an scv that I can save and place at a watchtower later on, or just send back to my base before it dies
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50-100 minerals early game is not "so little." Those minerals grow exponentially. And scans obviously mean foregoing the 270 minerals that a MULE provides (without taking up mineral space from SCVs, too). The APM and attention of scouting, keeping your worker alive, etc., etc. Just because the metagame has evolved assuming early worker scouts doesn't mean that it doesn't cost anything.
In tournament situations, knowing that you're not going to scout and simply doing the build that you've specifically prepared can also prevent you from abandoning your game plan in a fit of nerves just because the guy's barracks is in a weird spot.
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I remember a (BW) game with Flash vs Free on Grandline where he literally did not scout at all until like 10 minutes into the game when he scanned to find out where his opponent was before pushing out from 2 bases. XD
I do not think it's wise to not scout with a worker in general though. The benefit of not doing it is so small that I don't think it's worth it.
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On December 14 2010 22:28 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout. But you lose so little from it, it just seems stupid not to do something like that if it won't cost you anything. Like there's a lot of important things to see even if you can't adapt your BO. If I'm playing vP, for example, I wanna see where he places his early pylons to know roughly where to scan. Also if I don't see a second pylon in base I know Protoss is proxying something, which can make or break a lot of games. And again, all it costs me is an scv that I can save and place at a watchtower later on, or just send back to my base before it dies
step 1:
Load up a replay where you scout with your scv and then brings it back to base. Take the totalt time it takes.
step 2:
Start a custom game. Remove all svcs except one. Mine for the the ammount of time you got in step 1.
step 3: Look at your minerals and think about all stuffs you can convert it into. Then try to convice yourself again that you lose "so little".
Since your mineralline aint saturated during the time you scout. This is roughly accurate.
Edit: Think about this next time you lose a battle where there is like 2 zealots left wrecking havoc on your expansion. 
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the conclusion of this thread is that the game has reached a level where almost everything is just standard and there are no surprising strategies that can really get you and thats pretty sad in my opinion
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- He has low apm
- He doesn't scout
and yet one of the best EU terrans. How can you not like the guy?!
Many people I watch playing just scout because they are taught "they should". you can really see this in many streams where people don't change BO at all after scouting. They just go on like they planned to.
It's like one of those things that gives the feeling of safety, when you see what your opponent is up to. But if you are not gonna change a BO you have decided for i see no reason you should scout.
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Who needs to scout when you have marines.
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On December 14 2010 22:27 cArn- wrote:
Just throwing that out there, I remember SjoW explaining this himself saying that he chooses not to scout because he prefers having solid builds able to hold anything rather than rely on scouting hurting his economy, especially when scouting is most of the time not telling much beside if the opponent is cheesing or not, and if your build is good you'll be able to hold it anyway, which joins what Nazgul was saying.
True. He's 'kinda' hinting towards it in this video interview:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163425
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its not as small a gain to keep an extra worker early as some of you might think. It can really add up. I think its a good idea to always scout because it clears your head, although some games i scout very late because no matter what i see, i probably wouldn't change the build very much. But i believe it is important to scout eventually, and not wait too long, because even if you wouldn't change ur build at all if you scouted a push, youd at least be better prepared for it mentally, and thats always comforting.
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It's mostly viable due to the fact that terran has really strong defensive capabilities throughout the game. I think his builds are designed in a fashion that shuts down a lot of common stuff you'd normally want to scout as well. No probe scout PvT for example would never work.
And I'm starting to think the concept of 'cheese' doesn't quite apply to sc2, because frankly we see cheese getting carried out very effectively despite getting scouted all the time. Defenders advantage doesn't exist in sc2 and most 'cheese' relies on getting out sheer amount of fire power as early as it is virtually possible and so is impossible to prevent unless you went for a build that already counters it.
On December 14 2010 22:53 papaz wrote:
- He has low apm
- He doesn't scout
and yet one of the best EU terrans. How can you not like the guy?!
Many people I watch playing just scout because they are taught "they should". you can really see this in many streams where people don't change BO at all after scouting. They just go on like they planned to.
It's like one of those things that gives the feeling of safety, when you see what your opponent is up to. But if you are not gonna change a BO you have decided for i see no reason you should scout.
If he manages to get his mechanics on par with his amazing strategics, decision making and game sense SjoW is going to be such a fucking beast. :O
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Canada1637 Posts
On December 14 2010 22:53 papaz wrote:
- He has low apm
- He doesn't scout
and yet one of the best EU terrans. How can you not like the guy?!
Many people I watch playing just scout because they are taught "they should". you can really see this in many streams where people don't change BO at all after scouting. They just go on like they planned to.
It's like one of those things that gives the feeling of safety, when you see what your opponent is up to. But if you are not gonna change a BO you have decided for i see no reason you should scout.
I don't really understand your point about not changing your BO.
For example its TvT, I scout and see 12 rax 13 gas, completely standard so I don't change my BO. Makes sense. However if I had scouted no gases taken at 14 supply then I will adjust. Scouting just gives you more information to change your BO if you want, if you scout them playing standard which your BO is your general response to, then why would you change your BO? Basically scouting is what will tell you if you want to change your BO... If you won't adjust no matter what they're doing then ye you shouldn't scout, but you don't always want to adjust.
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On December 14 2010 22:27 imyzhang wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 22:24 Herculix wrote:On December 14 2010 22:18 imyzhang wrote:On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote:On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote:
You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway. What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? Or nydus worms? I've seen it happend. This isn't about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going or what strategy - it's simply map awareness so that you don't get caught off guard. It's tactical, not strategical, and if you're floating on god damned 2000 minerals you can afford to do it, lol. what games have you been watching...? sjow scouts later on in his games, just like any other high-skilled player. It's not like the thread is about players NEVER scouting. and to your argument about getting busted by blings/roaches or the like "isnt" about figuring out what tech path your opponent is going, isn't scouting a part of map awareness...? ;o I can delay scouting until my reaper appears, or my first helion is out in a tvz, and i would still be fine vs a bling bust =/ and if mutas catch you off guard... then that's a whole nother issue with your scouting. On December 14 2010 22:08 xzidez wrote:On December 14 2010 22:06 vOdToasT wrote:On December 14 2010 22:04 Piy wrote:
You people should watch some Flash and Midas BW games. I remember Flash played vs Best on Colloseum where he scouted with his vulture.
You can do it, I mean theres no gain in scouting for hidden rax if you have a build that can defend it anyway. What about when a bunch of roaches and banelings come out of nowhere and own Sjow? Or mutas in his mineral line? I doubt that an early SCV can do a better job of scouting that than the hellion does later on.... actually at first i got the honest impression that that was what the thread was about. sounds crazy, but i've seen enough threads that make me go "WHAT?" to believe it. i do recall having watched sjows games where he will, for instance, scout with a hellion or something, but OP makes no mention of that. he simply asks if not scouting is the future, which is obviously never going to happen for reasons already stated. Op: Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play? Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows? he asks if SJOW's style of no scouting (which means lack of the first scv scout we're accustomed to seeing) will become the way of the future, not what you said.
edit: lawl op corrected himself, which is what i had an issue with, making this post redundant
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On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.
I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing.
Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info.
I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest.
No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong?
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I only scout on positions really late and expo timings for p and 1 rax fe T. I dont think scouting gives you alot of intel anyway, use the first helion to scout arround for proxy stargate locations and your fine imo,
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On December 14 2010 23:16 Brutus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.
However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.
People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.
There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout. I'm sorry but this has to the biggest bullshit I've heard in a while from someone that's considered to be good. You think it's better to to not scout? Even if you do a solid build, you still want to know what your opponent is doing. Let's say someone 2 gate proxys him, he wants to respond right? Or is a bunker before OC standard? There are countless other examples, like when your opponent is doing a FE. You need to respond by expanding yourself or making an attack. These two are very different reactions that needs to be based from your scouting info. I already said something about Sjow in his stream thread. I don't understand how he wins so many tournaments if you watch him play. His lack of scouting, macro, hotkeys and general apm seems to not hurt him in the slightest. No offense Nazgul, but the way I read your post I just can't agree with it. Maybe I read it wrong?
The point is it's entirely situational. For example, certain builds are aimed at investing in army early on regardless of what your opponent is doing for the purpose of harassment or whatever. In some situations the loss of income won't ever be made up for by any scouting information you might gain. In some games a small number of builds might straight up hard counter you and so trying to find out about them is rather futile.
Oh and people need to actually watch SjoW play before speaking out. He does in fact marine scout most of his games, it's just a matter of him scouting at a timing where he finds the information is more relevant. That said if he was noticing something like a large increase in the number of proxy gates or whatever he's facing, chances are he'd start changing things up.
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Scouting is important, but against good players early worker scouting is generally useless. For example, no one is going to take a second gas while their opponent can still scout it.
Terrans almost always open up depot, rax, refinery and then kick the scout out with a marine. You don't learn anything.
Protoss almost always open up pylon, gateway, cyber and then kick the scout out with a stalker. You don't learn anything.
Zerg are the only ones really worth scouting and that's only to see if they went hatch, pool, or gas first. Or maybe doing an early rush.
Pretty much the only thing you get out of early worker scouting is finding proxy locations or crappy cheese play. The important kind of scouting to be done is finding out their tech path. This kind of scouting people often fail to do, because it is harder than just sending a worker.
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It's not just about scouting their possible BO, you also have to know where they are. Besides that, against zerg blocking the expansion with your scouting scv can make up for the lost mining time
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EPT
