EPTin TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed...
Sjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 21
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skYYnet
Sweden9 Posts
in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed... | ||
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Fission
Canada1184 Posts
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting. in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed... Can you show the math/proof behind these numbers please? | ||
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DrakeFZX3
United States925 Posts
He wins games that much is true. But having seen a lot of his losses, wow. His losses are incredibly brutal to watch. Like there's no reason to have lost the way he's lost many of these games. I'd feel he'd be an absolute beast if he incorporated some form of early scouting. Maybe not all the time, but do it more often than never. | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting. in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed... being a whole dropship worth of marines ahead of your opponent is a lot more than a 400 mineral advantage. To get 8 marines ahead you would have had to build an additional rax, so 150 minerals for a rax some minutes ago, which cost let's say + 50 minerals more worth of scv mining time + 100 minerals for a medevac + 400 = 8*(50/marine) + 200 = 2*100/supply depot) + 40 lost minerals of scv mining time for depots because your saturation is high now) + 100 mineral fudge factor to account for the minerals forgone (or scv's invested in depending on how you look at it) to get the gas for the dropship so I've got a very rough total of just over 1000 minerals. Forgoing the early scout is about getting a miniscule advantage early to have a miniscule advantage in early battles, which often decides the game. Based on pretty quick diminishing returns of adding workers I don't think you're really gonna get the snowball effect you're implying. | ||
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norlock
Netherlands918 Posts
1 Sjow doesn't scout because he doesn't need to? 2 People can scout if they want to 3 INcontrol and Avilo have a too big ego, what is a bit annoying. What is wrong with your attitudes, maybe a lack of attention. Well certainly for avilo, making such an awful flaming post. | ||
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Jager
United Kingdom140 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Wouldn't it be advantageous to scout at the very least on steppes, but also on meta due to the danger of close positions? I'm talking about the build MC used against Jinro, the chrono-boosted zealot BEFORE core, then the fast 2nd zealot into the zealot/zealot/stalker harassment force. (Sorry for spoilers, but the game was played a good while ago....). The scouting SCV would be able to exactly tell you this: is my opponent making a quick zealot delaying his tech. Because in this case I think you'd want to throw down a bunker immediately, or am I mistaken? Maybe it's because I play against players not used to this kind of aggressive PvT harassment, but normally I can do damage even WHEN I'm scouted. In other words since I haven't you/Sjow seen defending vs this: how "would" you defend against the quick double zealot stalker without any early scouting intel? Because if you are unlucky, your first marine gets picked off right when checking for proxies (which you said you'd do and which I indeed saw you do on stream). | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I'm talking about early game scout people. Read my posts please. This is why it's being considered to have a forum where people read what top gamers say and not be allowed to interact. It's actually impossible to post without 30 people being dumb about it. The irony here, which you seemed to have completely missed, is that your primary antagonist in this thread is not the countless noobs; it is Nazgul. Are you suggesting Nazgul would not be allowed to post in said "top gamer" forum? There are clear pros and cons to early working scouting.You seem to think that the pros completely outweigh the cons, regardless. Others would disagree. At least one player has learned how to take advantage of the pros such that it at least balances out for them. And when you consider a cheesy VR rush: 1) you're not going to scout that with your early worker unless your opponent is terrible, and 2) consider that the minerals saved could have gone to a blind starport build. | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting. in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed... Assuming constant SCV production, you are only ahead of the SCV scouter until you reach saturation, which will start to happen once you get 2 worker on each patch (around 22 SCVs). The third worker does not contribute fully. But in that time, this takes about 5 minutes, you will have mined about 200 extra minerals more than your opponent, or just under 6% more. This is not as insignificant as some suggest, and it is certainly not the "1%" that Chill posted. | ||
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DrainX
Sweden3187 Posts
On December 16 2010 00:30 out4blood wrote: Assuming constant SCV production, you are only ahead of the SCV scouter until you reach saturation, which will start to happen once you get 2 worker on each patch (around 22 SCVs). The third worker does not contribute fully. But in that time, this takes about 5 minutes, you will have mined about 200 extra minerals more than your opponent, or just under 6% more. This is not as insignificant as some suggest, and it is certainly not the "1%" that Chill posted. Exactly. And those 200 extra minerals might enable you to take a much earlier expansion which will boost your economy even further. | ||
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telfire
United States415 Posts
But everyone needs to scout. That doesn't mean always seeing their base directly, you can glean info from units you see, the front wall, expansion timings, etc. Anyway I vote "yes", there is obviously a tangible benefit to no worker scout, but if you actually mean "no scouting" as the topic suggests then I would definitely say no, unless you're doing some sort of all-in that will not change regardless of what you scout. | ||
syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
e: oh wait, false alarm as that was against a random player | ||
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gcoin
United States89 Posts
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On December 15 2010 10:47 skYYnet wrote: Quite fun to see people dismiss the little lost mining time vs scouting. in TvT if you scout on 12 and your opponent isn't scouting at all you lose 8.3% in mining vs your opponent. 10 minutes in the game you might have lost 3-4-500 which is a dropship full of marines, or 2 tanks less, but hey at least you saw the SD > rax > marine which was so useful, who could have guessed... ..what? Where in your ass did you pull this out. Not to mention you force them to pull a worker when you get there. And you won't lose to proxy cheeses as well. With a lot of experience, you can also start being a little greedier and squeeze out extra workers. This is especially essential in ZvZ. You can also constantly harass workers on the mineral line constantly and make him stop mining periodically. EDIT: Just in general, I just can't imagine people can make the argument that I don't have to scout because my BO is so good. Guess what, you can make your BO even better if you scout. There's no way a BO is solid enough to either defend a cheese AND if an opponent goes super greedy and gets a FE and come out ahead yourself. Having a scout will help you tweak your solid BO to something better. Well worth the scout. | ||
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mango_destroyer
Canada3914 Posts
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Blondinbengt
Sweden578 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote: Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. I don't think this is true. + Show Spoiler + A proper proxied gate will kill you as terran before that marine pops. Period. Watch MC vs Marineking game 3 on blistering sands. MC owns MK and has two zealots before Marineking has his second zealot out. The best part? MC only made one gate. MK would have been able to wall if he had sent his SCV to scout after the depot, as is standard for early SCV scouts. Instead, he sent it after the barracks. He also didn't scout behind his natural for proxies and paid for it. So, in this case you can draw an analogy to SjoW's no early SCV play. The result would have been identical: a 4 minute 50 second win for MC. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
Whether or not this is a good strategy or not the fact remains - if you scout, and don't plan on adjusting your build no matter what; someone please tell me what the point of worker scouting would be in that situation? The irony here, which you seemed to have completely missed, is that your primary antagonist in this thread is not the countless noobs; it is Nazgul. Are you suggesting Nazgul would not be allowed to post in said "top gamer" forum? Are you serious? Did you read Nazgul or iNcontrol's post. iNcontrol even directly addressed Nazgul's post in his response. How do you get that Nazgul and iNcontrol are arguing head to head? They are saying different things. iNcontrol - if you know what you are looking for and can adjust your build to what you see; you must must must scout with that initial worker. Nazgul - if you don't know what you are looking for and you aren't going to adjust your build NO MATTER WHAT there is something to be said for not scouting - don't just scout because everyone else does it, know what you are looking for | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On December 16 2010 13:13 bkrow wrote: This thread is hilarious; so many bs arguments going back on forth. Isn't the point that SjoW doesn't think he needs to "worker scout" because he isn't going to adjust his build even if he sees a missing pylon. He is still going to do the same build vs a proxy play or vs standard opening. He scouts later on to see tech? Whether or not this is a good strategy or not the fact remains - if you scout, and don't plan on adjusting your build no matter what; someone please tell me what the point of worker scouting would be in that situation? Are you serious? Did you read Nazgul or iNcontrol's post. iNcontrol even directly addressed Nazgul's post in his response. How do you get that Nazgul and iNcontrol are arguing head to head? They are saying different things. iNcontrol - if you know what you are looking for and can adjust your build to what you see; you must must must scout with that initial worker. Nazgul - if you don't know what you are looking for and you aren't going to adjust your build NO MATTER WHAT there is something to be said for not scouting - don't just scout because everyone else does it, know what you are looking for One thing to point out though, as I mentioned in my previous post, is that there are some builds that will cause 1/1/1 without a scout to auto-lose. Proxy gate is one of those, despite the assertion that the first marine will be out in time to react. This is only true if the proxy is in the middle of the map, as opposed to in your nat, for example. | ||
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OriginalBeast
United States709 Posts
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