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Sjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 19

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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andrewwiggin
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia435 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 21:54:25
December 14 2010 21:53 GMT
#361
Haha.

I know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout.

But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/

Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius....

User was warned for this post
Koshi
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Belgium38799 Posts
December 14 2010 21:57 GMT
#362
On December 15 2010 06:46 Vei wrote:
frankly I have to scout because I play Zerg -_-!

Frankly, zerg is the race that scouts the least with an early drone.

I scout with my first lings, then with overlord. But never with an early drone.
I had a good night of sleep.
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
December 14 2010 22:05 GMT
#363
On December 15 2010 06:53 andrewwiggin wrote:
Haha.

I know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout.

But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/

Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius....

sup
hmunkey
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom1973 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 22:10:58
December 14 2010 22:06 GMT
#364
On December 15 2010 07:05 hifriend wrote:
sup

So, basically, all his accomplishments are in tourneys bigger names don't compete in? I'm still not convinced his non-scouting is amazing.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, is that his non-scouting isn't some super innovative miracle that people need to be obsessing over. I want to see him try it in a GSL or something because yeah, while Craftcups are nice and all, they clearly don;t have the same level of competition so he can take more risks.
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
December 14 2010 22:07 GMT
#365
Haha, nice games vs Darkforce btw :D
busbarn
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden984 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 22:09:50
December 14 2010 22:08 GMT
#366
On December 15 2010 06:53 andrewwiggin wrote:
Haha.

I know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout.

But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/

Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius....


Well SjoW is probably one of Europes most accomplished terrans in sc2, winning several offline events and a huge number of online cups, also doing well in ladder. I think it's interesting if he choose to play a certain way.

Even though some people shouldn't comment at all but still did, this thread gave me the info I was looking for (thx sjow & merz for that).
razamanaz
Profile Joined August 2010
271 Posts
December 14 2010 22:09 GMT
#367
Got to thank merz and sjow for posting .
Krigwin
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1130 Posts
December 14 2010 22:11 GMT
#368
How do you pronounce Sjow?

Is it "si-jow" or is it "ess-jow" or what? This has been bothering me for a long time.
hifriend
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
China7935 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 22:12:33
December 14 2010 22:11 GMT
#369
On December 15 2010 07:06 hmunkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2010 07:05 hifriend wrote:
sup

So, basically, all his accomplishments are in tourneys bigger names don't compete in? I'm still not convinced his non-scouting is amazing.

Um, we're talking foreigners and his match list is full of the absolute top europeans or if you don't watch europeans play he's got players like select, qxc, kiwikaki, machine etc beat in there as well. He's obviously a very good players and he's not trying to force anyone into not scouting, it's just what happens to work for him.

On December 15 2010 07:11 Krigwin wrote:
How do you pronounce Sjow?

Is it "si-jow" or is it "ess-jow" or what? This has been bothering me for a long time.

Assuming there's not something else behind his nick, I'm guessing it's pronounced show. Sj in swedish = sh in english.
Mooncat
Profile Joined October 2007
Germany1228 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 22:23:22
December 14 2010 22:14 GMT
#370
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote:
How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".

So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.


This pretty much sums up the whole discussion imho.

Seriously, there are some very very rare cases, where a very very experienced player(e.g. Flash) can decide not to scout early with an SCV because he's 95% sure that nothing can happen to him until point X in time when he will definitely scout all that he needs to. But that's just it.

99.99% you benefit from the early scout more than from the minerals you save and 100% of the time you have the potential to just utterly deny what your opponent is planning based on your scouting info. Not to mention stuff like harassing with the probe, thus potentially throwing your opponents build slightly off, maybe even killing a worker, etc. Maybe you can even hide your worker scout to later scout their base for free basically(even happens in some pro games). It's also important to note that scouting alone doesn't always give you all the info you need, but in conjunction with factors like map, position(which you don't even know if you don't SCV scout on 4 player maps), etc. it does give you a very good idea of what your opponents is likely to do. There's so much more to say about this, but you get my drill.

Oh, and one last thing. There's nothing more satisfying in Starcraft or Starcraft 2 than reading your opponent like a book and thus totally destroying him.


Edit:
One more thing about scanning, because some people have been mentioning it in this thread. A well timed scan here and there is almost always beneficial and worth the money. Why? Because it's not just about what you see, but also what you don't see that can give you a lot of info. Let's say you scan with your 2nd 50 energy on your orbital and you only see one completed gate in your P opponent's base. It usually means he's either doing a tech build or a 1gate expand. Now combine this with an scv/marine scout to verify if he has an expansion or not, and you can be pretty sure to expect either DTs or Void Rays, both of which can be responded to similarly.

"[Lee Young Ho] With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status."
dizzy101
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2066 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 22:21:36
December 14 2010 22:20 GMT
#371
Sjow is top 5 EU and I'd say top 10 in NA&EU combined.

I'm surprised by the amount of closed-minded nay-saying in this thread, even by people with red usernames. Odd. But the contributions of Sjow, Trump and Merz make up for that.

This is a subtle debate where both sides have points. As Trump pointed out in a well-thought out post, you lose around 100-50 minerals. In the early game, that makes a difference. If you lose the scouting SCV, it matters even more.

In the Undeniable tourney last week, Sjow played Ranged (#18 NA ladder) who said, 'I'll teach you not to scout'. Ranged tried to cheese Sjow several times but failed (including non-scouted proxy gates).

This no-scouting has obviously been thought about carefully, so the nay-sayers should think about their counter-arguments equally carefully.

Zim23
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1681 Posts
December 14 2010 22:22 GMT
#372
I don't get how not scouting could be beneficial. I guess you can make the argument that it isn't very detrimental (though I don't agree), but that it's beneficial? I think it's always going to be good to have some idea what your opponent is doing.
Do an arranged marriage if she's not completely minging, and don't worry about dancing, get a go-kart, cheers.
ksn
Profile Joined September 2010
Italy34 Posts
December 14 2010 22:22 GMT
#373
If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story;
He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion.
And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
December 14 2010 22:28 GMT
#374
On December 15 2010 07:22 ksn wrote:
If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story;
He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion.
And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game

In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense.
Moderator
ReachTheSky
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3294 Posts
December 14 2010 22:29 GMT
#375
i feel like its a little crucial when it comes to keeping track of ur opponents chronoboost in the tvp matchup early on.
TL+ Member
Arkansassy
Profile Joined October 2010
358 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 22:37:15
December 14 2010 22:36 GMT
#376
On December 15 2010 05:06 SmoKim wrote:
between this post and your Terran whine blog, no wonder you get made so much fun of on SotG podcast and on TL in general. Chill off with the negative attitude


Guess you lost the humor in avilo's post. I found it hysterically funny. As a matter a fact his post was one of the few "chilled" posts I read in a plethora of angry posts. And yet he gets banned for being funny and you don't for totally being off topic. Oh well.

As far as scouting v non-scouting, I can only base my opinion on what I've seen and agree with most of what InControl put forth; however, after reading most of the posts, (some of which were totally inflammatory) I didn't see where anyone said "DON'T ever scout." Which, imo, would be insane.

Just because SjoW doesn't scout immediately, doesn't make it a perfect strategy. It is his method of operation and works for him - or at least has thus far.

Isn't the game, after all, about trying different strategies until you find one that works for you?


Quecks
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden6 Posts
December 14 2010 22:37 GMT
#377
On December 15 2010 07:14 Mooncat wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote:
How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'".

So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout.


This pretty much sums up the whole discussion imho.

Seriously, there are some very very rare cases, where a very very experienced player(e.g. Flash) can decide not to scout early with an SCV because he's 95% sure that nothing can happen to him until point X in time when he will definitely scout all that he needs to. But that's just it.

...

Oh, and one last thing. There's nothing more satisfying in Starcraft or Starcraft 2 than reading your opponent like a book and thus totally destroying him.




That chill quote is kind of dumb, more of a catchy little one-liner from some bad dr.phil-type show, since the benefit of not scouting isnt apparent while losing your whole fucking base is.

Those minerals saved could enable you that expo at the 10min mark, 2 extra marines that could prove usefull, either by holding xelnagas, scouting, giving the edge in skirmishes that eventually lead you to getting the hold of the game and winning. There is really no way to know what the benefit was exactly.

Only thing we have to judge this is the success of the people doing it. And even then its not really possible to know because, hang on, its such a small detail it really doesnt matter that much.
But sjow seems to be doing quit alright for himself, im not saying this is because of the no-scv-scouting, probably his insane APM thats the reason for his success.
Manifesto7
Profile Blog Joined November 2002
Osaka27149 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-14 22:44:08
December 14 2010 22:41 GMT
#378
No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs.
ModeratorGodfather
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
December 14 2010 22:50 GMT
#379
On December 15 2010 07:41 Manifesto7 wrote:
No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous.

Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs.


I appreciate the move, but this thread is only referring to worker scouting so stuff like dts or double expands are outside the scope of what this affects, doubly so since the example build is 1/1/1 and can (and usually does if I understand correctly) get out an early raven.
Logo
Quecks
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden6 Posts
December 14 2010 22:51 GMT
#380
On December 15 2010 07:28 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2010 07:22 ksn wrote:
If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story;
He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion.
And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game

In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense.


Wow, didnt know you thought SjoW was THAT good? 3200pts and placeing pretty much every tour he plays with that much of a self-imposed handicap? Damn. Imagine if he just saw that gateway and gas.

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