EPTI know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout.
But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/
Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius....
User was warned for this post
Sjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 19
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andrewwiggin
Australia435 Posts
I know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout. But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/ Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius.... User was warned for this post | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On December 15 2010 06:46 Vei wrote: frankly I have to scout because I play Zerg -_-! Frankly, zerg is the race that scouts the least with an early drone. I scout with my first lings, then with overlord. But never with an early drone. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On December 15 2010 06:53 andrewwiggin wrote: Haha. I know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout. But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/ Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius.... sup | ||
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hmunkey
United Kingdom1973 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:05 hifriend wrote: sup So, basically, all his accomplishments are in tourneys bigger names don't compete in? I'm still not convinced his non-scouting is amazing. I guess what I'm trying to say is, is that his non-scouting isn't some super innovative miracle that people need to be obsessing over. I want to see him try it in a GSL or something because yeah, while Craftcups are nice and all, they clearly don;t have the same level of competition so he can take more risks. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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busbarn
Sweden984 Posts
On December 15 2010 06:53 andrewwiggin wrote: Haha. I know who ogsmc is. I know who foxer is. I know who nestea is. And they all scout. But I sure as hell don't know who sjow is =/ Let's see him make gsl first before calling him a genius.... Well SjoW is probably one of Europes most accomplished terrans in sc2, winning several offline events and a huge number of online cups, also doing well in ladder. I think it's interesting if he choose to play a certain way. Even though some people shouldn't comment at all but still did, this thread gave me the info I was looking for (thx sjow & merz for that). | ||
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razamanaz
271 Posts
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Krigwin
1130 Posts
Is it "si-jow" or is it "ess-jow" or what? This has been bothering me for a long time. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:06 hmunkey wrote: So, basically, all his accomplishments are in tourneys bigger names don't compete in? I'm still not convinced his non-scouting is amazing. Um, we're talking foreigners and his match list is full of the absolute top europeans or if you don't watch europeans play he's got players like select, qxc, kiwikaki, machine etc beat in there as well. He's obviously a very good players and he's not trying to force anyone into not scouting, it's just what happens to work for him. On December 15 2010 07:11 Krigwin wrote: How do you pronounce Sjow? Is it "si-jow" or is it "ess-jow" or what? This has been bothering me for a long time. Assuming there's not something else behind his nick, I'm guessing it's pronounced show. Sj in swedish = sh in english. | ||
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'". So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout. This pretty much sums up the whole discussion imho. Seriously, there are some very very rare cases, where a very very experienced player(e.g. Flash) can decide not to scout early with an SCV because he's 95% sure that nothing can happen to him until point X in time when he will definitely scout all that he needs to. But that's just it. 99.99% you benefit from the early scout more than from the minerals you save and 100% of the time you have the potential to just utterly deny what your opponent is planning based on your scouting info. Not to mention stuff like harassing with the probe, thus potentially throwing your opponents build slightly off, maybe even killing a worker, etc. Maybe you can even hide your worker scout to later scout their base for free basically(even happens in some pro games). It's also important to note that scouting alone doesn't always give you all the info you need, but in conjunction with factors like map, position(which you don't even know if you don't SCV scout on 4 player maps), etc. it does give you a very good idea of what your opponents is likely to do. There's so much more to say about this, but you get my drill. Oh, and one last thing. There's nothing more satisfying in Starcraft or Starcraft 2 than reading your opponent like a book and thus totally destroying him. Edit: One more thing about scanning, because some people have been mentioning it in this thread. A well timed scan here and there is almost always beneficial and worth the money. Why? Because it's not just about what you see, but also what you don't see that can give you a lot of info. Let's say you scan with your 2nd 50 energy on your orbital and you only see one completed gate in your P opponent's base. It usually means he's either doing a tech build or a 1gate expand. Now combine this with an scv/marine scout to verify if he has an expansion or not, and you can be pretty sure to expect either DTs or Void Rays, both of which can be responded to similarly. | ||
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dizzy101
Netherlands2066 Posts
I'm surprised by the amount of closed-minded nay-saying in this thread, even by people with red usernames. Odd. But the contributions of Sjow, Trump and Merz make up for that. This is a subtle debate where both sides have points. As Trump pointed out in a well-thought out post, you lose around 100-50 minerals. In the early game, that makes a difference. If you lose the scouting SCV, it matters even more. In the Undeniable tourney last week, Sjow played Ranged (#18 NA ladder) who said, 'I'll teach you not to scout'. Ranged tried to cheese Sjow several times but failed (including non-scouted proxy gates). This no-scouting has obviously been thought about carefully, so the nay-sayers should think about their counter-arguments equally carefully. | ||
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Zim23
United States1681 Posts
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ksn
Italy34 Posts
He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion. And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game | ||
Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:22 ksn wrote: If you look at the single game for sure is a bad idea, but looking at the statistics tells a different story; He has a very safe build, let's say he gets successfully cheesed 1 game every 10 (and that's being pessimistic), still in 9 out of ten games he will have an advantage just scouting with the first hellion. And probably he get cheesed successfully less than that. Different story if we are talking about a tournament or just the single game In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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Arkansassy
358 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:06 SmoKim wrote: between this post and your Terran whine blog, no wonder you get made so much fun of on SotG podcast and on TL in general. Chill off with the negative attitude Guess you lost the humor in avilo's post. I found it hysterically funny. As a matter a fact his post was one of the few "chilled" posts I read in a plethora of angry posts. And yet he gets banned for being funny and you don't for totally being off topic. Oh well. As far as scouting v non-scouting, I can only base my opinion on what I've seen and agree with most of what InControl put forth; however, after reading most of the posts, (some of which were totally inflammatory) I didn't see where anyone said "DON'T ever scout." Which, imo, would be insane. Just because SjoW doesn't scout immediately, doesn't make it a perfect strategy. It is his method of operation and works for him - or at least has thus far. Isn't the game, after all, about trying different strategies until you find one that works for you? | ||
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Quecks
Sweden6 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:14 Mooncat wrote: This pretty much sums up the whole discussion imho. Seriously, there are some very very rare cases, where a very very experienced player(e.g. Flash) can decide not to scout early with an SCV because he's 95% sure that nothing can happen to him until point X in time when he will definitely scout all that he needs to. But that's just it. ... Oh, and one last thing. There's nothing more satisfying in Starcraft or Starcraft 2 than reading your opponent like a book and thus totally destroying him. That chill quote is kind of dumb, more of a catchy little one-liner from some bad dr.phil-type show, since the benefit of not scouting isnt apparent while losing your whole fucking base is. Those minerals saved could enable you that expo at the 10min mark, 2 extra marines that could prove usefull, either by holding xelnagas, scouting, giving the edge in skirmishes that eventually lead you to getting the hold of the game and winning. There is really no way to know what the benefit was exactly. Only thing we have to judge this is the success of the people doing it. And even then its not really possible to know because, hang on, its such a small detail it really doesnt matter that much. But sjow seems to be doing quit alright for himself, im not saying this is because of the no-scv-scouting, probably his insane APM thats the reason for his success. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27173 Posts
Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:41 Manifesto7 wrote: No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous. Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs. I appreciate the move, but this thread is only referring to worker scouting so stuff like dts or double expands are outside the scope of what this affects, doubly so since the example build is 1/1/1 and can (and usually does if I understand correctly) get out an early raven. | ||
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Quecks
Sweden6 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:28 Chill wrote: In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense. Wow, didnt know you thought SjoW was THAT good? 3200pts and placeing pretty much every tour he plays with that much of a self-imposed handicap? Damn. Imagine if he just saw that gateway and gas. User was warned for this post | ||
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