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On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
Dude, do you honestly believe one would persue the 1-1-1 build if they scout the Proxy 2 gate with their marine. THAT'S the point you're missing, thats where you ADAPT, meaning of course I wont lay down a starport or ignore the fact I have a fucking 2 gate coming at my face. Again NO, I said if YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE 1-1-1 BUILD, it's not OPTIMAL to USE AN EARLY SCV SCOUT. I never anywhere stated that the 1-1-1 build is the optimal build to play, I said its SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, and in SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, scouting with your first scv is NOT OPTIMAL.
Added sick amounts of caps because you obviously have troubles reading what I say.
EDIT: Meaning = You don't play the same vs a 2 gate proxy as you do vs a 16 nexus, how are you not getting this?
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On December 15 2010 06:05 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. Doing something optimally can sometimes out weigh the benefit of doing the optimal thing suboptimally. So don't take it as a given that you can just bend and break all your builds based on scouting information to get better results. A extreme example is if I 6 pool but scout 2 rax with a wall-off I can't just transition into a 2 hatch ling defense that seems to be optimal vs that sort of opening.
I see your argument, but this is a funny and silly example. 6 pool vs Terran is just dumb. All I'm saying is that a great player will find a hole in this 1-1-1 no scout until marine build, and take advantage of it. You simply cannot do the same build every game and expect it to work every single time. Sure you can have tons and tons of success like Kyrix, but eventually your build will be broken and countered.
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On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
There is no optimal build vs. everything. Scouting without adjusting anything isn't optimal too.
Sjow has one build which is pretty safe but not OPTIMAL against everything.
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Sounds like a gimmick.
Obviously you can still win without scouting, but you're not winning because of that extra SCV, you're winning because you're just better anyways. I don't think successes with this strategy really give it any validity.
The effects of both strategies are clear so this should be an easy thing to compare. You can easily watch the game and see if 1 SCV would make a difference. You can also watch a game and see if scouting made a difference.
Empirically, you will find an SCV will almost never make a difference in who wins while scouting will occasionally make a difference in who wins.
Ridiculous tactic outside of possible specific strategies based around it. While scouting is very overrated and often won't change anything, it is still far more likely to be game-changing than the mining time on your SCV. If you want to try to be cute, though, go ahead I guess.
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On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
Sending an early scout isn't playing optimally either since you lose mining time. There is no such thing as an optimal build. If you are comfortable playing a certain style then you will probably be better at performing using that style. If SjoW feels comfortable with first getting his tech, then responding to his opponent then that is probably the way he will win the most number of games.
Also if SjoW does some cheese build 20% of his games then going nexus before gate, 1/5 games you will be guaranteed a loss. In 4/5 games you will be marginally ahead but might lose that lead if he uses his tech to harass you correctly. That would not necessarily be worth the risk.
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On December 15 2010 06:17 DrainX wrote:
Sending an early scout isn't playing optimally either since you lose mining time. There is no such thing as an optimal build. If you are comfortable playing a certain style then you will probably be better at performing using that style. If SjoW feels comfortable with first getting his tech, then responding to his opponent then that is probably the way he will win the most number of games.
Do you even know what the word optimal means? Scouting early has more benefits than drawbacks, so it's optimal.
The word you're looking for is perfect. Yeah, it's not perfect.
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On December 15 2010 06:24 hmunkey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 06:17 DrainX wrote:
Sending an early scout isn't playing optimally either since you lose mining time. There is no such thing as an optimal build. If you are comfortable playing a certain style then you will probably be better at performing using that style. If SjoW feels comfortable with first getting his tech, then responding to his opponent then that is probably the way he will win the most number of games.
Do you even know what the word optimal means? Scouting early has more benefits than drawbacks, so it's optimal. The word you're looking for is perfect. Yeah, it's not perfect.
Scouting early does not necessarily in all situations have more benefits than drawbacks. That was kind of the point of this thread.
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okay everyone, tune into his stream right now, and let's observe what happens in his practical application =]
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Calgary25980 Posts
On December 15 2010 06:11 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play. Dude, do you honestly believe one would persue the 1-1-1 build if they scout the Proxy 2 gate with their marine. THAT'S the point you're missing, thats where you ADAPT, meaning of course I wont lay down a starport or ignore the fact I have a fucking 2 gate coming at my face. Again NO, I said if YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE 1-1-1 BUILD, it's not OPTIMAL to USE AN EARLY SCV SCOUT. I never anywhere stated that the 1-1-1 build is the optimal build to play, I said its SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, and in SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, scouting with your first scv is NOT OPTIMAL. Added sick amounts of caps because you obviously have troubles reading what I say. EDIT: Meaning = You don't play the same vs a 2 gate proxy as you do vs a 16 nexus, how are you not getting this?
There's no need to talk to someone like this. Take it to PM or ignore it if you can't have a civil discussion.
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That sounds completely ridiculous.
There's no reason not to scout unless you lack the APM or something. It forces you to do builds that are "good against everything", where as if you just scouted you could actually do what's right against what your opponent's actually doing.
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On December 15 2010 06:28 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 06:11 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play. Dude, do you honestly believe one would persue the 1-1-1 build if they scout the Proxy 2 gate with their marine. THAT'S the point you're missing, thats where you ADAPT, meaning of course I wont lay down a starport or ignore the fact I have a fucking 2 gate coming at my face. Again NO, I said if YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE 1-1-1 BUILD, it's not OPTIMAL to USE AN EARLY SCV SCOUT. I never anywhere stated that the 1-1-1 build is the optimal build to play, I said its SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, and in SJOWS WAY TO PLAY, scouting with your first scv is NOT OPTIMAL. Added sick amounts of caps because you obviously have troubles reading what I say. EDIT: Meaning = You don't play the same vs a 2 gate proxy as you do vs a 16 nexus, how are you not getting this? There's no need to talk to someone like this. Take it to PM or ignore it if you can't have a civil discussion.
It's hard to remaing civil when he puts false words into my mouth and makes false assumptions, all while he isn't even remotely trying to read what I'm saying. But yes, you are right, I will refrain from stuff like that in the future, it's just frustratring that he keeps making stuff up.
In the end; This is how SjoW plays, theres valid reasons for it, I'm not claiming its optimal, I'm not claiming it's the best build out there and the koreans should play like it. I'm just saying there's a lot of thought behind the reason why he plays like this. Scouting or not is situational and depends on what type of player and what type of build you are opting for. All in all, if you can't see valid reasons to why you shouldn't scout with an scv in the beginning, then go ahead and scout.
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On December 15 2010 06:13 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 06:05 Logo wrote:On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. Doing something optimally can sometimes out weigh the benefit of doing the optimal thing suboptimally. So don't take it as a given that you can just bend and break all your builds based on scouting information to get better results. A extreme example is if I 6 pool but scout 2 rax with a wall-off I can't just transition into a 2 hatch ling defense that seems to be optimal vs that sort of opening. I see your argument, but this is a funny and silly example. 6 pool vs Terran is just dumb. All I'm saying is that a great player will find a hole in this 1-1-1 no scout until marine build, and take advantage of it. You simply cannot do the same build every game and expect it to work every single time. Sure you can have tons and tons of success like Kyrix, but eventually your build will be broken and countered.
I 100% agree, but I don't see it as the point of the thread. The question that I see raised by this thread is more about whether or not some builds can get away without worker scouting. It doesn't really matter that SjoW might 100% 1/1/1 without drone scouting, all that matters is he serves as an example case of how someone has a build that is doing well without them scv scouting and whether or not this player would be doing even better, the same, or slightly worse if he decided to worker scout while doing this build. From that we can maybe start to see how/when we can cut worker scouting to get a better boost in our % to win.
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On December 15 2010 06:28 sjschmidt93 wrote:
That sounds completely ridiculous.
There's no reason not to scout unless you lack the APM or something. It forces you to do builds that are "good against everything", where as if you just scouted you could actually do what's right against what your opponent's actually doing.
god ><
Like we're actualy discussing the fact of NOT SCOUTING AT ALL.
No, we're discussing the fact of not sending an scv 3mn into the game and replacing it with a marine @3mn45 and an hellion @5mn.
We're discussing pros and cons, hoping to produce some interresting results.
We're not discussing the marvelous idea of not scouting at all.
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I'm not sure if it's entirely related, but I don't worker scout with Zerg while opening with 12pool. I get the first pair of lings in time anyway, and when it's a 4-spawn map I can figure my opponent's location out by the timing of his scout.
As Terran I still would probably scout, but I also have done things like 2rax stim timing -> FE against Protoss where I'll do the same thing no matter what(I'll still use one scan, but I don't think a SCV scout is necessary here).
Overall yeah I don't think it's optimal every time but he clearly has a plan that he's going to be able to follow. He also most likely will figure things out by what he sees heading towards his base and so on. Marine scout isn't all that late, either.
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this just proves sc2 takes even less skill doesnt it? though i would proxi him 5 out of 5 games if he truly doesnt scout.
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I think its an interesting idea tbh, despite what some people have said i think the minrals gained is pretty significant.
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frankly I have to scout because I play Zerg -_-!
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So if I open with 3 gate robo, would it be ok not to scout until I get the observer out? Somehow I doubt this can work for protoss or zerg.
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On December 15 2010 06:45 Entertaining wrote:
this just proves sc2 takes even less skill doesnt it? though i would proxi him 5 out of 5 games if he truly doesnt scout.
like nobody tried it before
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On December 15 2010 06:48 AndAgain wrote:
So if I open with 3 gate robo, would it be ok not to scout until I get the observer out? Somehow I doubt this can work for protoss or zerg.
I'd say the Toss equivalent would be more like scouting with your first Stalker. And as for Zerg, Merz pointed out that early scouting is much more important due to Zerg being a far more reactionary race.
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EPT
