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So many fluff posts in the past 10 pages, but thanks for SjoW for chiming in (as well as Chill, Incontrol, and Naz of course).
On December 15 2010 00:46 Brutus wrote:
The only time when you can afford not to scout is a baneling opening, even if you want to go roach you have to know what he is doing. Throwing a roach den down and gas means 2 drones less and less lings vs a 6/7 pool. These little things can mean game over.
Generally on most maps I find the scouting drone needs to be exceptionally early to spot a 6 or 7 pool before you start your gas. Plus on most maps where people 6 or 7 pool the lings should be at your base, or close to it, by the time your pool pops unless you are doing a 10-12 pool. Even then your warren and gas would be still building and could be canceled. Likewise you should be able to spot the incoming lings on most maps through your overlord which I find much more preferable than the drone scout. There's a few map exceptions I can see the need for drone scouting, something like LT can maybe benefit from a check at the close positions to make sure you don't have someone rolling the dice on you (6/7 pooling on a 4 player map hoping for the close positions).
Still my point is there are clearly situations in ZvZ where most people agree that you don't drone scout, even you admit baneling openings don't really need a drone scout. So while I don't necessarily agree never scouting is good or that not scouting in some of the situations mentioned is good, I do think it's something that deserves more than an immediate dismissal (or acceptance) by people.
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On December 15 2010 05:06 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote:
Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic. How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style." How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
It isn't bad play if it works.. In SjoW's case I think we can safely conclude that it's working.
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At a pro level, I think not scouting is ok on occasion, if you do it too often I feel like people will just cheese you and win.
Personally, I dont think pulling one drone for intel is a bad trade.
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Thank you Sjow and merz for your very good posts
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On December 15 2010 04:39 SjoW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:33 ribboo wrote:On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv) What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember) Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused? It was against slider I lost to 2 gw proxy, and after that game I ofcourse checked the replay and saw my mistake and started talking to merz how to deal with it, and we agreed upon scouting with marines outside your base is the most optimal play. the helion scout sees if theres a expansion outside his base and i constantly patrol between xelnaga towers and opponents expasion/base to see exact timing of his expansion. If you mean hidden expansion, thats just putting yourself in real danger and I would be glad if someone tried something like that against me.
I was talking about hidden expansions, yeah. Think it might have been against MorroW, the same day, on Xel'Naga, you were kind of stalemated, and you didn't scout his 9'o clock expansion until it was fully saturated. Perhaps it had just gone up, I'm not sure. Anyway, you won that game, so well played. 
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On December 15 2010 05:06 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote:
Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic. How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style." How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
Scouting at any cost isn't a "core component of being good". Sjow does scout, just not the way that most do, meaning it is a "style". You can send all of your scv's to scout and you'd know exactly what your opponent does. That would be bad.
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Yes, thank you sjow and merz.
I'm a terran myself, but I prefer FEing if I can so I will stick to scv scouting. But I enjoy your stream, and I really appreciate getting inside your head a little more due to your posts here. You've obviously thought this out.
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I think the argument with adaptable vs unadaptable builds is pretty valid here. My comments are coming from a P point of view, where I typically scout at 6 or 7 (I know, I know), but 14 gate in all matchups. Because I 14 gate I have an immense amount of flexibility, which I like, allowing me to tech or unit up depending on what I see. As a player who likes to put on early pressure while transitioning to the difficult to deal with Stargate units (not in PvP though), I find that scouting is super important because of how I am playing the game.
If Sjow wants to 1/1/1 blindly, he has picked a good build to do it and it really makes sense that he wouldn't need to early scout because the hellion comes out early enough anyway to see the enemy's unit composition and numbers, which is really all you need to see; you don't need to see a single building to know what tech he has just by the force that comes to meet the hellion. That being said, there are P builds out there, even excluding the 2 gate proxy, that do really well against the 1/1/1 especially if a hellion is made blind. For example, my 14 gate allows me to field 3 phoenixes or 1 VR 1 phoenix by 7:15, coupled with about 4 zealots, and either 3 stalkers or 1 sentry 1 stalker. An all marine force from a 1/1/1 cannot survive this push, and the hellion becomes irrelevant, even moreso if more than 1 are produced. By focus firing the only anti-air units the T player has, every unit in the game that is on the field becomes irrelevant except the Void Ray. Even in this case, however, can you see that scouting won't get you anywhere? SCV scouting won't get far enough to tell you I have Stargate units, and any decent P player will displace their stargate so as to not show up on a typical scan. It sounds counterintuitive, but when you think about it, sometimes scouting is simply a waste of mining time because there is no possibility of gaining anything from it, which is what I think Sjow believes.
Do I scout? Yes, because I like to pressure early. If I FE every game, however, I don't think it would be wise to waste any mining time to find out little information that I am not even prepared to deal with. Similarly, if I have a good, all-purpose build that handles most things well and I am confident I can even handle cheese with it, would it be wise to waste any mining time to find out information that my build is incapable of exploiting early on? No.
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On December 15 2010 05:10 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:06 avilo wrote:On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote:
Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic. How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style." How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy. It isn't bad play if it works.. In SjoW's case I think we can safely conclude that it's working.
Careful, 6 pooling works and it is most definitely bad play.
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My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
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with the way some people are thinking here it would be good to scout with one of your 6 starting workers just so you would gain as much information as possible
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I don't get this  So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me?
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On December 15 2010 05:21 cosmincontra wrote:
with the way some people are thinking here it would be good to scout with one of your 6 starting workers to gain as much information as possible
I scout at 6 or 7, usually 1 trip to the mineral patch and back, then out. It scouts for cheese, it scouts location, it allows me to harass T, and most importantly, it allows me to 14 gate, which negates any shortage of income that I incur from such an early scout compared to my opponent.
EDIT: Please, this is about sending an SCV to scout at 9 or 11. He has already stated he scouts with marine or hellion
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On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote:
My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
And you talk about straw man?
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On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote:
My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
read the thread if you're really interested in knowing dude.
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On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote:
My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
Most people here talk about sjow's build, so your examples aren't very good. Of course there are builds where you have to scout early.
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On December 15 2010 05:24 KCrazy wrote:I don't get this So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me?
I'd just like to add one more thing.
This does NOT necessarily apply to all the races. Especially not Zerg. Zerg is by definition a reactionary race in the early stages of the game, they try to cut every corner they can and they must do so, they're also the race who can adapt more quickly than the other two due to their larva mechanics. Please, please, do not mistake what Im saying as even a hint of calling zerg imbalanced. I'm merely saying that Zerg is a lot more reactionary than terran and thus naturally benefits more from scouting early on.
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On December 15 2010 05:24 KCrazy wrote:I don't get this So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me?
for zerg its probably true, but because of things like bunkers, terrans using his build can scout early attacks relatively late and still have a good chance at holding them off
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I respect SjoW for going his own way instead of just copying everybody else. Maybe it's better to get an economical advantage.
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On December 15 2010 05:20 ZlaSHeR wrote:
My brain almost exploded reading the title and original post, and some of the replies on this thread are so straw man, I'm a little afraid.
The risks of not scouting far outweigh the "benefits", come on man...If someone turtles up and hides tech, doesn't push to show unit comp, how do you plan on beating it.
IE: You're terran and go marine ghost assuming he 4 gates, but he never shows his army and then goes 2 gate robo collosus.
another ie: You go marine marauder with a fast expand, all of a sudden they proxy templar tech and dt's eat up your mineral line, followed by templars eating up your bio ball
how can not scouting be a good idea? for the extra 50 minerals? come on....this is a pretty off argument.
You are missing the point.
In all the examples you mentioned above you are right, scouting is crucial. You fail to realize
1) Sjow does scout these things, he simply doesn't scout for the first 4 or 5 minutes of the game
2) None of these are builds that are optimized for non-early scouting, like I said previously, there are builds that don't benefit from an early scv scout (the 1/1/1 build) and thus the point where you adapt is either 1) if you scout something fishy around your base with your first marine 2) When your hellion comes out. Sjow does the 1/1/1 build, thus, he doesnt scout with an early scv, but instead uses his marine early on and later a hellion, followed up by a viking or banshee.
The 1/1/1 Unlocks everything the terran needs to adapt, you can get a raven out for a PDD and detection, you have the ability to research siege/blueflame, you can switch your techlabs around and get banshee with cloak, or stim early on. This is why scouting with your first scv with this build is unecessary, because it doesn't provide you with any information that is crucial for the way you play out YOUR build the first 5 minutes of the game.
Any information that is crucial before the 5 minute mark can be obtained with your first marine.
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EPT
