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On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability.
You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
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Thank you SjoW and meRz for sharing your opinions here. Its so much more confident to have the voice of the person at hand instead of people just speculating without full back-up information
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Thank you to Sjow/Merz for taking the time to put those posts together  .
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But wouldn't it be ideal to use builds that aren't "of the kind" that wouldn't change even if he scouted earlier, though I'm even dubious of that claim. Scouting with your first marine definitely isn't early enough against some "cheese" or at least leaves you in a much worse position than scouting with the scv.
Also, why do you think sjow is the only high level player that utilizes these builds that don't "require" scouting
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Awesome posts by SjoW and merz. I haven't been scouting myself (only in TvZ cause I have a different opening vs FE and no FE) and I find cheeses to be completely defendable. Without the scout, your buildings and units come out significantly (in my mind) faster, which helps a lot.
What bothers me the most, is the 4 gate/ 3 gate + voidray situation. The early scout will not give you any information about it, and the hellion can be denied too easily if its being expected. The banshee is too late, and prevents u from building a viking. I think you need at least 1 bunker and immediate scv pull to defend both, especially the 3 gate + voidray.
I think this is the only flaw to it in my mind, but big enough to look for a different approach. I mean, in high level play, when the opp can expect 1/1/1 and does everything correctly, you won't scout the two all ins, and won't defend them. I was thinking maybe floating rax, but they take a long time to build, and cut quite a lot into your income.
Any ideas?
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Maybe a stupid question, but just because I've seen Mana do it on Shakuras recently....how on God's green earth are you supposed to "react" to a 15 Nexus without SCV scout?
If you do hellion-scout the expo is established, the robo will be in time before cloak hits and you are in a world of poo-poo?
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Calgary25980 Posts
On December 15 2010 04:53 sleepingdog wrote:
Maybe a stupid question, but just because I've seen Mana do it on Shakuras recently....how on God's green earth are you supposed to "react" to a 15 Nexus without SCV scout?
If you do hellion-scout the expo is established, the robo will be in time before cloak hits and you are in a world of poo-poo?
He already responded that he doesn't think FE is better than expanding after gateway, so he doesn't worry about it.
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United States22883 Posts
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i'm zerg, and i always drone scout vs terran and protoss, and Z if i'm wanting to 15 hatch. BUT, my primary objective when scouting terran and protoss is 1) to see if its a 2rax or 2 gate, and 2) then immediatly steal gas if it's not.
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On December 15 2010 04:43 SjoW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:34 FindingPride wrote:On December 15 2010 04:17 SjoW wrote:On December 15 2010 04:10 FindingPride wrote:On December 15 2010 04:04 SjoW wrote:On December 15 2010 04:00 FindingPride wrote:On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv) Why do u have a plan not to scout, and you argue that in tvp a scout accomplishes nothing but it accomplishes a fair deal. For starters Scout bad 3 pylon placement. I can scan later if i feel hes up to something... 2 gas.. I can expect some sort of tech or sentry expand.. You can adjust your build to all of this including the map positions. If people know you aren't going to scout you become to 1 dimensional and what toss/zerg player is going to worry about being in close positions vs you? point being is you become just as 1 dimensional as lastshadow. - They know whats coming. Yes you are correct with im being to predictable but its not because I dont scout. I would like to play 80% standard 20% cheese game. I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port ) thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck. Perfect question. I have been in this situation many times and in this specific situation I would spot it with my helion and my starport would have been ready. I would probably go for an expansion my self and try to hit his economy to get on even grounds. Banshee is the obvious choice here. And wheter its a 1 gw exp or 2gw exp doesnt matter its a fast expansion anyway and it removes almost all potentiall aggresion from our opponent and thats the key information we gained. You should come to the us. server. I promise i'll change your mind in tvt.. : ) o if god so help me i will pride.726 no thanks people have been doing cheese to me in 100 latest tourneys and im pretty confidant how to handle it. Especially in T v T.
its not cheese. I just want to show you.
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On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income?
I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off, but this is not optimal play, and a good player will take advantage of it as soon as they figure out that you never early scout.
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On December 15 2010 04:54 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:53 sleepingdog wrote:
Maybe a stupid question, but just because I've seen Mana do it on Shakuras recently....how on God's green earth are you supposed to "react" to a 15 Nexus without SCV scout?
If you do hellion-scout the expo is established, the robo will be in time before cloak hits and you are in a world of poo-poo? He already responded that he doesn't think FE is better than expanding after gateway, so he doesn't worry about it.
Sorry, must've missed this 
All I read was that he doesn't care if it's one gate expand or 2 gate robo expand (if you aren't going for a timing push it indeed doesn't matter too much, I'd agree on this one)
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Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
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On December 15 2010 04:39 SjoW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:33 ribboo wrote:On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv) What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember) Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused? It was against slider I lost to 2 gw proxy, and after that game I ofcourse checked the replay and saw my mistake and started talking to merz how to deal with it, and we agreed upon scouting with marines outside your base is the most optimal play. the helion scout sees if theres a expansion outside his base and i constantly patrol between xelnaga towers and opponents expasion/base to see exact timing of his expansion. If you mean hidden expansion, thats just putting yourself in real danger and I would be glad if someone tried something like that against me.
omg lol, you guys got together in a lil meeting and discussed how to stop that?
Did it go something like this?"
sjow: yo i just lost to proxy gates, there's probably some real real easy way to stop it that i just haven't thought about
merz: well...in brood war, we used to use those worker guys to scout around for a proxy...because it's possible an opponent could do that
sjow: i don't use scv to scout
merz: ...you said proxy2gate right?
sjow: yeah, that's what it was, there's gotta be some nice adaptation build i can do
merz: yeah...just scout for the proxy
sjow; you mean with like a marine?
merz: no, with an scv.
sjow: how do i do that?
User was temp banned for this post.
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Wow, this discussion is rather heated up it seems ... I find this kind of strange since in my view scout timings are always directly tied to the build you are playing. And yes there definately are solid builds which actually benefit slightly from not scouting early (usually safe builds which are rigid early on anyways) and there might even be builds for which it is "optimal" to skip the early scout.
However, only being able to play those builds is not a sign of a varied playstyle and can surely be exploited. I am sure at some point Sjow will also need to vary his play and pick up builds which involve early scouting - at least occasionally. That being said I would not be surprised if other terran players will occasionally omit the first scout in the future, since Sjow build seems kind of strong.
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On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off.
This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting.
About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand.
I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
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On December 15 2010 05:02 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:39 SjoW wrote:On December 15 2010 04:33 ribboo wrote:On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.
vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.
And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.
My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.
There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.
Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.
Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.
My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv) What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember) Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused? It was against slider I lost to 2 gw proxy, and after that game I ofcourse checked the replay and saw my mistake and started talking to merz how to deal with it, and we agreed upon scouting with marines outside your base is the most optimal play. the helion scout sees if theres a expansion outside his base and i constantly patrol between xelnaga towers and opponents expasion/base to see exact timing of his expansion. If you mean hidden expansion, thats just putting yourself in real danger and I would be glad if someone tried something like that against me. omg lol, you guys got together in a lil meeting and discussed how to stop that? Did it go something like this?" sjow: yo i just lost to proxy gates, there's probably some real real easy way to stop it that i just haven't thought about merz: well...in brood war, we used to use those worker guys to scout around for a proxy...because it's possible an opponent could do that sjow: i don't use scv to scout merz: ...you said proxy2gate right? sjow: yeah, that's what it was, there's gotta be some nice adaptation build i can do merz: yeah...just scout for the proxy sjow; you mean with like a marine? merz: no, with an scv. sjow: how do i do that?
between this post and your Terran whine blog, no wonder you get made so much fun of on SotG podcast and on TL in general. Chill off with the negative attitude
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It boggles my mind you would call scouting with marines the most optimal play against proxy 2 gate, I suppose you could mean the most optimal play if you are completely unwilling to scout with an scv
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On December 15 2010 05:02 darthcaesar wrote:
Great posts by SjoW and meRz.
I guess if you do the 1/1/1 every game I understand the no scv scout.
However, if you plan on going 1rax expo, or 2rax expo, something along those lines, I think an scv scout is necessary, but at this point it's more stylistic.
How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style."
How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy.
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Do you change your scouting habits for random players Sjow?
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EPT
