Sjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 14

On December 15 2010 04:01 knL wrote:
Its ridiculous how many people dont get to point of the op. Its not about the scouting itself. Its about the current standard and about a player who questions it.

On December 15 2010 04:10 FindingPride wrote:

I edited my post. to add this.. how can you tell the difference between a 1 gate expand and a 2gate robo expand? Cross spawn metalop... he 1 gates expand... you cant cheese that. your going to be behind from no scout/latescout and you can't really tell the difference between a 2gate robo/ 1gate expand if you can't get in his base. He has the towers he see's the hellion. wut u do? you know hes expanded you have two choices. Catch up or push. it's nigh impossible to see where he is on the tech path. you can assume hes teching to robo or that hes already at it and at worse is sending an observer to your base. I agree the 1/1/1 can fend off all cheese. But i believe your killing a large part of your adaption by not scouting at all. If you see a 1 gate expand and its close spawn and your going 1/1/1 start pumping banshees.. or if its long spawn.... dont 2 gas and start adding tanks or more rax ( late port )
thats a perfect example for you right there... regardless best of luck.

On December 15 2010 04:10 Chill wrote:

Obviously you can infer from my original post that I'm talking about traditional SCV scouting so there's no need for your play-dumb reply.

I think you can see the similarities between Brood War and SC2. Namely the buildings and units that you make for the first 5 minutes being literally identical. It's ignorant to blindly say "NEW GAME" when there is ridiculous overlap between them.

On December 15 2010 04:14 meRz wrote:
As a team mate i've discussed this with SjoW several times and I've come to some conclusions;

The way SjoW plays (read the way SJOW PLAYS) doesn't really benefit from early scv scouting.

Because of some things

1) SjoW approaches the game in a way where he wants build orders who are basically overall solid vs about anything. This doesn't mean he believes that his build orders are totally safe no matter what his opponent throws at him, it just means that his build order is safe enough to let him adapt quickly to pretty much any sitatuation (much like how the SC/BW build orders were in the last few years). I've seen SjoW handle situations where I thought he'd die right there on the spot, but his experience with the builds he does over and over gives him the routine needed to know what to do when, in almost all possible rush situations. He knows when and how many scvs to pull, where to engage etc...

2) SjoW does actually scout, the only difference from SjoW and your average player is that SjoW uses combat units to scout, and often very mobile combat units. He draws the conclusion; Okay, no matter what type of EARLY GAME cheese my opponent throws at me, I'm still sticking to this build, why do I need do scout as early as with my scv, when nothing I see with it will impact the way I play out my build order? So what does he do? In 99.9% of the games he plays, no matter what matchup, he builds a hellion. What does he do with the hellion? He scouts! Because at the time when the hellion comes out, is the time when SjoW needs to adapt his build if necessary. The time before that has no relevance, he's not going to make any adjustments anyways!

Also; We often saw SjoW do even more scouting in form of a no-cloak banshee from his starport. He'd more often than not do zero damage to the player he was facing, damaga as in getting kills on his banshee, but the information he gathered by just hoovering the sides of his opponents base, taking a swing by the expo, is actually really valueable.

3) I see a lot of players failing to notice this, but SjoW actually does early game scouting as well in form of sending his marine around his expo + to possible close positions and to possible proxy locations. This means that he has the time to react even if he were, lets say 2 gate proxied right outside his base, although sometimes he doesn't even scout with the marine, but players have begun taking advantage of that (SjoW lost to a 2 gate proxy on Xel Naga vs Slider due to not scouting at all in the beginning). If there's one thing I still disagree with in sjows play is that he doesn't even use his first marine sometimes.

4) Why is he able to defend various all-ins without even scouting? Because for one, his build is extremly safe. It's not particulary good vs anything (good as in, your BO will win you the game) but it's not extremly bad vs anything as well, and leaves a lot of room for quick adaption to the situation. Also, believe it or not, by not using a scv to scout, he's actually able to afford to push out one or even two units more than the player who'd used his scv to scout his opponent, which also contributes a lot to his ability to defend early game all-ins. ¨

Does this mean I shouldn't scout early on?

No. It doesn't mean you shouldn't ever scout, nor does it mean that not scouting early on is bad. It's all situational, what type of player are you? The reactional player, a player who basically does all his decisions based on what his opponent is doing, obviously needs all the intel he can get, thus scouting with your scv would be a good idea.

I think the most important thing to question yourself is "Why do I scout?" Far too many people just scout because it's muscle memory, or it's what they've been told to do because all the pros do it. Again, if you have a build which you think can hold its on vs pretty much anything, what do you benefit from seeing the stuff you see with your first scv scout? Do you really need that info? Or would you rather want a few extra minerals to have that extra unit out in case your opponent is actually doing early aggression?

Disclaimer: These are my own conclusions based off talks with SjoW, but also being around SjoW both offline/online when this question has been asked. Believe me, every other interview ive seen with sjow or even witnessed from the side IRL has always brought up the "why dont you scout?" question. I can't say to a 100% that SjoW would actually agree with my post though.

On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts.

However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves.

People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used.

There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout.

On December 15 2010 04:26 meRz wrote:
Oh right I should really start reading all the pages in a thread before I write a reply. SjoW is apparently already here taking questions, lol!

On December 15 2010 04:30 Silentenigma wrote:

I watch his stream frequently and i see him losing to proxy rax, proxy gate, dts, baneling bust pretty often.If he scouted that I am sure he would defend them easily.
This guy does 1-1-1 build which is most adaptable build in terran arsenal.There is no excuse to losing this kind of cheeses.

On December 15 2010 03:52 SjoW wrote:
I dont feel like scouting with the early scvs since there is no real information to gain except proxygateway/6pool/proxy rax and all theese can be handled if played properly without using the first scv scout. Its usually all about telling your mind hes gonna cheese me 100% and its often easier to manage it and after that the game usually already have been decided right there after his failed attempt.

vs toss everything looks the same up until 4.5 - 5 min mark and thats when he get a stalker out to neglect any scouting scv. Same goes with zerg and terran they all block their ramp with zergling or marines when the you need the information.

And what about using scans? If you're a terran player you know how terrible this is, basicly its 270 down the drain and not even 100% sure to spot his tech path.

My first scout is always the first helion that comes out. And thats usually the time when you have to see what your opponent is doing. I also feel that people understimates the reads and information you can get just by seeing an opponents army composition early on. Just by poking up the ramp with the first helion gives me the information I need to set aside which openers hes not doing and what he can potentially do.

There's other ways to abuse a player that dont scout tho. 16 nexus / 16 cc but if you do the math they are almost equally strong to 1gw expo or 1rax orbital command expo. And theese openings I usually spot in time with my helion scout to be able to react properly. 1/1/1 is the most versitile build there is you get the option to go any route you want basicly.

Lately tho i've been struggling with 4warpgate / 3warpgate/voidray. And its usually because im playing poorly, But mostly its because players have adapted to my helion runby and starting blocking their ramp with units or pylons to see what they are doing in time.

Im still certain an 1/1/1 build can handle any cheese even without scouting it, if you play it perfect. And thats what im trying to achieve. If this isnt the case I will ofcourse change my gameplan and try to tap that leak.

My predictions for the future will be TvT (no scv scout) TvP (no scv scout) TvZ (I will scout an early scv)

On December 15 2010 04:17 SjoW wrote:


Perfect question. I have been in this situation many times and in this specific situation I would spot it with my helion and my starport would have been ready. I would probably go for an expansion my self and try to hit his economy to get on even grounds. Banshee is the obvious choice here. And wheter its a 1 gw exp or 2gw exp doesnt matter its a fast expansion anyway and it removes almost all potentiall aggresion from our opponent and thats the key information we gained.

On December 15 2010 04:25 Rabbet wrote:


Oh ok, should I make any other inferences on your post? My assertion on your original post was that it was talking about SC2, since thread is about Starcraft 2 and also in the Starcraft 2 forum. I guess it was wrong.

I don't seem to remember zerg in BW scouting with drones on 2 player maps, so it would be reasonable to believe that things actually do change between games even scouting.

On December 15 2010 04:33 ribboo wrote:

What about mid/lategame scouting? I was watching your stream the other day, I'm not sure what tournament you were playing, you lost one match to a 2gate proxy though. (If that helps you remember)

Anyway, my general feeling was that you barely scouted mid/late game either. You might have gotten some scouting intel with your hellion, but that was the first and last time you got some intel from the opponents base. You didn't scout any expos, at any time. Don't you feel like this can be abused?

On December 15 2010 04:39 Chill wrote:

My original post is talking about SC2. The only part referencing BW says BW in the sentence.

Zergs scouted with Drones on 2 player maps all the time. The fact that you can't remember super common practises means I'm just going to drop this.

On December 15 2010 04:34 FindingPride wrote:

You should come to the us. server. I promise i'll change your mind in tvt.. : )
o if god so help me i will
pride.726