EPTSjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 12
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Cloak
United States816 Posts
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, No one. So we agree.because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules If you scout what *may be* a non-tech build and so forgo more of that larger ensemble you are just as vulnerable to a tech switch as you would have been to a certain tech in the first place. The point is you have to keep constant tabs on your opponent, or as you put it, keep a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build. The point is you don't need to start off by sacrificing economy when you can just begin that ensemble at a time more crucial to your robust build order. Sjow's tournament and ladder record is pretty much proof of that. You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence. And you end with something everyone will agree on. thank you | ||
Chill
Calgary25981 Posts
So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout. | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:07 tree.hugger wrote: Who are you? Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules and a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build. An early scout sets the tone for how you play the game. You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence. Incontrol stated Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded. Clearly he is implying that his 12 food scv should give him the information necessary to build 2 Vikings instead of a Raven to prepare for VRs. We are trying to make the point that seeing an early 2nd gas from protoss is not enough information to assume Void Rays and make 2 Vikings instead of a Raven blindly. This entire thread is about the early scv scout, so to us InControl is clearly saying that Terrans should assume VRs are coming when they see an early 2nd gas and that is what we are having a hard time understanding. I'm not sure why InControl is acting so smug and superior to everybody. We are just trying to understand the discussion more clearly. This is a good discussion about how one person can be so successful without sending an early scv scout and maybe too many players are sending an early scout on certain maps/matchups when it is going to change nothing 90% of the time and they could have had an extra 50-100 minerals 100% of the time. | ||
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vdale
Germany1173 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded. I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv. I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players. | ||
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'". So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout. Nobody is arguing not to scout. It is the matter of when to scout. Also, Brood War is a different game and this is the SC2 forum. | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'". So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout. The 7th post in the thread mentions a game with a very good bw player choosing not to send a worker scout. I'm sure there are plenty other non-trivial examples. Also, every time I sent my scv to see gateway, cyber, gas, cb being used on whatever... I got that feeling (I could have inferred all that stuff just a minute or two later by testing the choke), even if I get my worker home safe. Is it just me? | ||
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Boxxer
83 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:57 Deadlyfish wrote: That's not true, IdrA posts everytime he has something offensive or stupid to say  Why did everyone get so mad though, what started out as a normal discussion turned into a flamewar. Maybe people could express their views without sounding like a douchebag at the same time, or acting like they're above others. That's just because most of the people who post in here are socially retarded, I don't mean that in an angry sense, I just mean it in a literal sense. People do not react well on here when they are told they are wrong which is why every thread turns into a flame war. | ||
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:23 Chill wrote: How is this 12 pages? The gains from not scouting are so marginal compared to the value of scouting. As intrigue told me "You never scout and then say 'Oh damn I wish I hadn't scouted'" . So yes, you should scout. There's a reason every Brood War game in the last 5 years involves a scout. Well, you COULD say it every time the scouting information doesn´t change your build order and later on you lose a battle that would've been won with two extra marines. I agree that scouting is generally beneficial and obviously you don't want to continue to not scout if you're known to not scout. Occasionally skipping the early scout is definitely viable though. | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:27 vdale wrote: I don't see a situation where he would build 2 vikings instead of a raven because of the scouting information of an early scv. I think Sjow is one of the most intelligent players out there and he definitely looked at his replays and asked himself if a early scv scout would have helped. I also don't think that you can punish Sjow for not scouting early on, because everybody knows that he doesn't do it and he still wins most of his games against other top players. 2nd Early gas USUALLY points to either robo or stargate. 4 warpgate timing delays the 2nd gas much longer. Vikings will be good in both these instances. Unless it's an immortal push, whereas the hellion scout would be able to find that out anyways. The raven will help more against 4 warpgate. And the reason InControl is acting that way is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug. I'd be smug too if I had a reputation like that, don't blame him. Too bad the reputation is mostly from BW. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Gigaudas
Sweden1213 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Chill just run man, there are too many of them On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote: And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here. I should have early scouted this Elitism, is that a part of your argumentation technique? People are approaching this discussion with very different mindsets and it's obvious that there are both situations were you will be better off as well as worse off with an early scout. On December 15 2010 03:32 Aberu wrote: And the reason InControl is acting that way is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug. I'd be smug too if I had a reputation like that, don't blame him. Too bad the reputation is mostly from BW. Just want to point out that I didn't read this before posting - I was not jumping on the bandwagon. I am constantly annoyed by InControl's argumentation technique and it was of importance in the debate to react to this technique of his. | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Chill just run man, there are too many of them Who needs to logically discuss anything when we can just belittle everybody in the thread who doesn't agree that scouting an early 2nd gas from protoss means terran should always get 2 quick vikings instead of a Raven! Anybody else posting the way InControl has been in this thread would have been temp banned swiftly. | ||
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Boxxer
83 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:32 Aberu wrote: And the reason InControl is acting that way is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug. I'd be smug too if I had a reputation like that, don't blame him. Too bad the reputation is mostly from BW. He is a pro SC2 player though so it makes sense he is smarter than the players here, think of it like......if you are diamond player would you listen to a bronze telling you how to play? You'd tell them to get lost, of course. | ||
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vdale
Germany1173 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:32 Aberu wrote: 2nd Early gas USUALLY points to either robo or stargate. 4 warpgate timing delays the 2nd gas much longer. Vikings will be good in both these instances. Unless it's an immortal push, whereas the hellion scout would be able to find that out anyways. The raven will help more against 4 warpgate. And the reason InControl is acting that is because that is how he feels. He feels he is smarter than anyone, and he does often come across as smug. yeah but it could also mean that DTs are coming. I don't think that other top terran players build vikings without seeing a robo, a stargate, immortals, colossi or voidrays. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
Sjow can get away with out scout because he's playing ladder and mostly online tourney, where people dont study his play. If he gets into a major tourney like GSL, his opponent will STUDY his every move and the lack of scouting is where his opponent will emphasize on. Sjow plays well w/o scout but HE CAN DO BETTER WITH SCOUT. Thats it. He doesn't scout doesn't mean that you have to do that too. A little scout will not hurt your econ and may provide some valueable information. I bet he will start scouting when he starts to lose alot because of the lack of scout. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
It doesn't mean his build won't work or be better without scouting in an individual game, but it would actually become safer across the board if there were a threat of him scouting. If you know 100% what your opponent will be doing, there's a hard counter you should be doing every time. Even if he only scouts 30% of the time, it drastically affects the response of the opponent and improves the quality of the build, even when he doesn't scout. | ||
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arterian
Canada1157 Posts
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On December 15 2010 03:43 vdale wrote: yeah but it could also mean that DTs are coming. I don't think that other top terran players build vikings without seeing a robo, a stargate, immortals, colossi or voidrays. If you don't early scout, you have to sack the hellion and/or scan to scout the robo/stargate/darkshrine. If you do an early scout, you can get a feel for if it is necessary to waste the minerals on it. So what if the SCV could have brought in 50-100 minerals, is using a scan later any less a waste? They may have to. The game is too dynamic to not early scout in my opinion, but sjow's style is to not do it, and he is seeing success. Now whether that success is him playing in his comfort zone with his strategy he knows how to perform, or is it because of the 50-100 mineral advantage from not sending an early scout, we won't know. | ||
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Billyten
Canada37 Posts
Hey everybody!!!! let's discuss the necessity of building workers troughtout the game... isn't it dumb to trash hundreds of mineral in a RTS game for unit how are so weak? This post should be closed by someone before SC 2 turns out being played horribly!!! | ||
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