EPTSjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 11
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
| ||
|
robertdinh
803 Posts
Top level RTS is about adapting to what's going on, streamlined build orders are good mind you, but if you are refusing to scout to the point where it is actually costing you games, that's just silly and there's a reason a lot of the best players make scouting a habit, and it's not because it is inefficient (it saves them from losing to certain direct counters) Is Sjow lan proven? Actually I shouldn't even ask if he is lan proven, it wouldn't matter either way lol. | ||
|
skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:10 {88}iNcontroL wrote: early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing I could go on... Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds. Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds. Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds? | ||
|
aidnai
United States1159 Posts
^^Inc has a good point about the early scout actually. You do get a lot of information, even if it's not definitely void rays, you know if it's a 1 gas warpgate rush, you see if he gets a stalker or sentry, if he skips the zealot, you see where the pylons are so you know where to scan, etc. All of that information helps you narrow down your response. Same with zerg. You get a pretty good idea if a 1 base all-in is coming, even if you don't see the roach warren or the baneling nest. | ||
|
revy
United States1524 Posts
Scouting is necessary. You throw away maybe 100 minerals with a scout but just knowing what your opponent is up to is easily worth this amount. That said if you have a specific plan for a game and nothing the opponent does will alter your game plan you shouldn't bother scouting. The amount of times this type of play is useful is minimal though. | ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:31 aidnai wrote: I'm surprised at how well Sjow does by simply doing the same build every game. Theorycrafting wise, you'd expect his opponents (in tournaments at least) to find something really abusive (i'm thinking double expand right off the bat). But I haven't seen it work out that way very often... I really can't tell if this speaks to his strength or his opponents weakness. He has very refined overall good and safe build that he can basicly success with in every matchup.. And its pretty hard to abuse it, because its capable of getting an early pressure as well as aim for macro late game.. And since he playes with this build very often, he knows his timings well I would guess thats the reason hes doing well. | ||
|
Aberu
United States968 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:55 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I completely agree with Sjow that people overscout in both BW and SC2. Oftentimes you start off with a build that is undecided for a while then scouting is crucial because your build adapts. However so many players use builds that are not made for adapting (again in both BW and SC2) and will lose to proxy rax for example even if they scout it. Not talking about Sjow here I'm talking about other players that do in fact scout, but when they see something happening still die to it, because they don't use an adaptable build. These players (a lot of top guys) don't understand the relation between adaptable builds and scouting patterns. Sjow understands that when using builds that aren't fit for adapting (which are plenty of builds from just about every player) you shouldn't scout at all. This does not make the build bad whatsoever btw because plenty of adaptable builds can lose to standard stuff because they gave up too much becoming adaptable. That's the price of playing RTS and the choices players need to make for themselves. People blindly saying thinking this is bad or that SC2 has failed need to get a clue and create a better understanding for the game. Judge a guy that scouts using an unadaptable build instead of the guy using the same build not scouting. The one not scouting understands the game much better. Everything depends on the builds that are being used. There's not only a difference between builds but also a difference between races. It's hard to imagine a good ZvT strategy where Zerg does not know how many raxes were built; thus Zerg should always drone scout. Agreed with this. But I do believe builds that are adaptable with scouting will on average give you more success than just blindly dealing hands left and right. When a terran 2 Rax Marine all-ins with scv's, I actually never understood why they scouted at all on 2 player maps. | ||
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:23 skipdog172 wrote: Taking an early gas is quite common with many toss builds. Putting the 2nd pylon in some corner of the base is very common with many toss builds. Is the terran player really going to drastically alter his build because he thinks there *might* be void rays coming because of an early 2nd gas which is quite common in many builds? You really think the terran player needs to react to that when it could still mean so many possible builds? Should the terran player really alter his early build because the fast gas showed that quick void rays are one possibility out of many possible builds? Please tell me more about sc2 sir. I had no idea | ||
|
GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:50 Everlong wrote: Such a passionate fun, arent you.. Please, If you have nothing to say on your own, than keep your mouth shut. No need to ruin this fun with Incontrol.. Lol are you kidding me? Your first post was nothing more than being a douche toward Geoff, so don't talk. Take your own advice. | ||
|
Kreb
4834 Posts
And Im pretty sure we can say by now its not hurting him much, because is far as I see very few people abuse it succesfully. He'd be a random 2200 T by now if it was that easy to abuse it. Its a lot more interesting really to see which top players continously uses scans/sacs overlords etc late game to scout. That has a way bigger impact on the outcome of a game late game than that early scv has early game. But that has just never become a topic. | ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:43 GreEny K wrote: Lol are you kidding me? Your first post was nothing more than being a douche toward Geoff, so don't talk. Take your own advice. Ur kiddin yourself. My first post is on page 8 and is actually related to this thread opposed to your endless flaming.. Get your facts straight and dont make yourself look like an arrogant troll, thank you.. edit: Watch the way Incontrol responds to me one post below and tell me about being douche, seriously.. | ||
|
relyt
United States1073 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:49 Everlong wrote: Ur kiddin yourself. My first post is on page 8 and is actually related to this thread opposed to your endless flaming.. Get your facts straight and dont make yourself look like an arrogant troll, thank you.. edit: Watch the way Incontrol responds to me one post below and tell me about being douche, seriously.. i love the irony of this statement | ||
|
gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:42 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Please tell me more about sc2 sir. I had no idea Could you genuinely address the issue without being an ass? You're basically saying terran's first scv can scout little hints like these that suggest void rays, and you're right. At the same time all of these hints at sub-3 minutes into the game dont make void rays any more likely than the sum liklihood of dts, phoenix, blink stalkers, or literally *any* tech route, plus there's the chance that the enemy pulls off of gas once your scout dies. Either way, whether you get the hints towards one tech or another your gonna have to scout later with a helion/reaper (possibly feasible), factory, or scan to hone in the opponent's build. Or maybe the toss turns up with a different build (expands sooner than expected or has more stalkers than expected) sooner than this time frame and you don't have to scout for what was up at all. Edit: I guess no coaching for free here on tl. I still totally respect your opinion inc but I'd like to understand how to put your reasoning into practice. so sorry | ||
|
iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
| ||
|
SeakayKu
United States128 Posts
TvP, Stepps of War -So by not sending scv scout, the T player gets 50 minerals or more, block ramp, bunker asap this will nullify the 10-gate cb zealot rushes, or even outside base proxies the immediate threat to look for which is in-base proxies -Techlab scouting reaper putting down techlab and the block will nullify stalker harrassments, since marauders become easily accessable Build order now deviates according to what reaper sees, which in most instances is when GAME PLAN is drawn unless T sees early aggressive P besides proxy gate + early probe harras making sure T can't block, I don't see any other possible cheese available or effective bunker is refundable, plus you won't loose the scouting scv so if a player has more faith in his macro games, why scout? now, a player thinking of 2 rax play might need to scout because dual gate stalkers will gain slight advantage to this kind of play on Stepps of war, so if a scout sees dual gate stalkers, maybe 2 rax can be altered the point: scout for something to attack or scout for something to defend against a few people like to go on a treasure hunt, and they sometimes do find treasures a few people like to put investments on their macro games in Sjow's case, obviously he preferred second way the problem: people argue to argue people scout to scout but don't see, after argument, you still need to find what's best for YOU, not others and after scouting or not, you still need to WIN games so there is definitely nothing bad about Sjow the poll simply answers to what % of people think scouting > investing not actually a truth or fact that scouting > investing | ||
|
Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
Can you enlighten me why the hell would you take random stuff out of context and make clueless comment about it to make you look smart? I hope your 3rd post on tl will bring something more out of you.. | ||
tree.hugger
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:58 gogogadgetflow wrote: Could you genuinely address the issue without being an ass? You're basically saying terran's first scv can scout little hints like these that suggest void rays, and you're right. At the same time all of these hints at sub-3 minutes into the game dont make void rays any more likely than the sum liklihood of dts, phoenix, blink stalkers, or literally *any* tech route, plus there's the chance that the enemy pulls off of gas once your scout dies. Either way, whether you get the hints towards one tech or another your gonna have to scout later with a helion/reaper (possibly feasible), factory, or scan to hone in the opponent's build. Or maybe the toss turns up with a different build (expands sooner than expected or has more stalkers than expected) sooner than this time frame and you don't have to scout for what was up at all. Who are you? Who was suggesting that the terran would early scv scout, then just sit around making vikings and marines? An early scouting scv is part of a larger ensemble, because knowing a tech build is coming is going to provoke more scans instead of mules and a general awareness and sensitivity to the protoss build. An early scout sets the tone for how you play the game. You don't need to literally see the stargate to be tipped off to it's possible presence. | ||
|
Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
| ||
|
Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
| ||
|
gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
| ||
| ||
