EPTSjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 10
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Enervate
United States1769 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:59 MrCon wrote: I don't agree. The question here is not theorical, the question is : does a 12 scv scout will allow you to scout something useful ? There is no experience needed here, this is all about timings. And if in 80% of the times you won't scout anything useful, does the minerals gained are more valuable than the scouting information ? Well that's subjective. Is potentially dying in a must win game worth less than minerals gained by not scouting? So I think the question really should be: Is there anything an earlier scout can scout that could kill you that a later scout could not? If the answer to this question is that a later scout can scout the same potentially game losing things then yes, later scouting is perfectly fine. If not then it's a huge risk in important games. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:56 gakkgakk wrote: Still, it would be a better discussion if the best players debated this, instead of a bunch of random bronze-diamond people proclaiming their vast experience and knowledge about the matter. Since the only thing I was trying to expain (that SjoW doesnt need to scout with early scv) is based on many games Ive been watching on his stream your post makes no sence at all.. Then suddenly I became jesus and bronze-diamond noob within 5 minutes, Oh I love tl so much.. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:02 Numy wrote: I agree this time :pWell that's subjective. Is potentially dying in a must win game worth less than minerals gained by not scouting? So I think the question really should be: Is there anything an earlier scout can scout that could kill you that a later scout could not? And I'd tend to answer no to this (from a terran POV, obv the answer is yes from a zerg pov) Vs all 3 race, your scout will be dead, from my experience of playing and watching things like GSL, 90% of the time before he can see any deviation from a standard build. So if your build is cheese proof, why not. | ||
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IceCube
Croatia1403 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:30 Jimmy Raynor wrote: Is his lack of scouting simply relying on his solid builds to stop cheese or he is just not afraid of any unorthodox play? Well my thought on this matter is, that he will lose more than not on some really allin cheesy play, and he may or may not stop some semi-allins. Do you think that his style of no scouting at the beginning of the game has any future or that play will be impossible as the game grows? As we all know Terran is the one race that benefits from defensive stance so it might work sometimes. But scouting is really important and as more the game evolves greater will be the need for scouting. | ||
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skipdog172
United States331 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:22 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Naz you are literally arguing that he understands the game well so he doesn't need to early game scout as long as he can float a factory (which he never does btw, do you even watch his games?)? As if he doesn't and hasn't lost to things 100% more defensible if you fucking scout. You know how often he loses to a vr rush? Each time he streams I see it 2-3 times if he scouts and gets 2 Vikings instead of a raven he can lawl at the vr rush but he never does and usually dies. I am not saying he is bad because obviously the results speak for themselves but the argument that he wouldn't benefit from scouting is actually retarded. Like full retard retarded. This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout. What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that? Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option? | ||
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lolwhat
Sweden58 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:07 skipdog172 wrote: This thread is about scouting with an early scv. That is all. It is about the fact that he doesn't send an early scv to scout. What toss player is ever going to reveal VRs to an early scv? Can you answer that? Maybe you can explain to us lesser players how a terran player is supposed to scout VRs? Isn't scan the only option? early 2 gas vs 1 gas / what they are chronoing / where they put pylons can often time indicate something along these lines as well / gate timing I could go on... Alot of you guys act like if you can't SEE the stargate you have no idea that they could be doing that or that further scouting is necessary OR a heavier marine contingency etc | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:10 MrCon wrote: Yeah, please remember that we only talk about a scv12 scout. I mean, he's delaying his scout from like 2 or 3 minutes, and replacing it with a late scout that will be able to see his whole opponent's base before dying usualy. What scout sees their entire base? Wtf? Hellion? That is a joke. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Dave.
Ireland272 Posts
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Rabbet
Canada404 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:56 gakkgakk wrote: Still, it would be a better discussion if the best players debated this, instead of a bunch of random bronze-diamond people proclaiming their vast experience and knowledge about the matter. Except that 99% of the players who play the game are regular bronze-diamond people. We are not here to claim our vast experience, just our simple experience with the game that we play everyday just like the pros. I came here telling the tale of how SJOW's play affected my own play and why. I don't come here talking about my amazing marine splitting vs banelings...because there is no hope in hell that a person with normal skill can do such things like SJOW does. A normal player CAN not scout and see benefits from it. | ||
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:04 Everlong wrote: Since the only thing I was trying to expain (that SjoW doesnt need to scout with early scv) is based on many games Ive been watching on his stream your post makes no sence at all.. Then suddenly I became jesus and bronze-diamond noob within 5 minutes, Oh I love tl so much.. Sorry mac, it wasn't directed at you. But merely an observation of this thread in its whole. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:13 syllogism wrote: I recall he doesn't even attempt to scout all that much with his "scouting hellion" http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/(P)SLiDeR_vs_(T)SjoW_jungle_basin_sc2rep_com_20101211/3617 Lets see how good map control can single Hellion secure.. | ||
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Blobskillz
Germany548 Posts
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whomybuddy
United States620 Posts
..............2k rating newbie like myself do that but sometimes I got steam-roll. It's rare but it's there. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:11 {88}iNcontroL wrote: What scout sees their entire base? Wtf? Hellion? That is a joke. In a 111 build, the first helion will usualy be able to go up the ramp. A reaper can usualy see everything before dying too. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:13 Dave. wrote: Seems to me like Sjow has been doing well in spite of not scouting early and not because of it. Ya. Lots of people have been going with the logic ''Sjow has a lot of success and he doesn't early scout or has high APM, therefore early scouting and high APM isn't neccessary''. Thing is, he could be even better and have even more success if he did. I'm sure of that. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 15 2010 02:18 MrCon wrote: In a 111 build, the first helion will usualy be able to go up the ramp. A reaper can usualy see everything before dying too. No way Hellion will make it. Watch the replay I posted above. | ||
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