EPTSjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 8
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Terran was given the luxus to scout late, since their workers lose enough mining time already. When i see a scv arriving while my raks is still building, i know i am ahead. Also i can't really understand why my opponents want to scout my raks building up. Normally I fake something for them like double gas, or 3 raks. And change my build when their worker is gone. Works way to often. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Patriot.dlk
Sweden5462 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:11 D10 wrote: Hmmm well seems great but you will face someone really good eventually that will abuse it in a tournament situation, like doing super fast and unsafe exps, because you are known to not scout ? he scouts with a marine/hellion.. Those are among his first attack units that could possibly attack that fast expand anyways edit: still cant understand his style though. But whatever works for him | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:11 D10 wrote: Hmmm well seems great but you will face someone really good eventually that will abuse it in a tournament situation, like doing super fast and unsafe exps, because you are known to not scout ? But he will will scout it, just a little time later. Scouting it early doesn't change anything anyway (in your very fast expand case), because you're not in position to punish it even if you scout it very fast. | ||
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D10
Brazil3409 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:13 Patriot.dlk wrote: he scouts with a marine/hellion.. Those are among his first attack units that could possibly attack that fast expand anyways edit: still cant understand his style though. But whatever works for him I guess it can work just as good you just need to know exacly where you stand BO wise with the least information possible. | ||
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Trump
United States350 Posts
You have less information yes, but how valuable is the info? Is it worth 100 minerals? (The general length of scouting time which you would have gathered by not scouting) Is it worth 150 minerals + say another 250 minerals by the 10 minute mark? (If you lose your scouting worker, which is commonplace) That's an expansion. I say this specifically from a terran point of view, by the way, a race in which I believe that it may be possible to hold off cheeses blindly and be competitive with your opponent even if you don't know what they're doing. It may even be a small advantage when the both of you turn out to be doing a 'standard' build. You're up a worker and some minerals, you might kill his worker. And then your opponent throws a scan to put himself further in the hole. The point is this: scouting is an important decision point. Is the extra (emphasis on EARLY information) information worth what I consider, on average, "150" minerals, at a point in which your build order mostly doesn't deviate? Trump says, for now, no In other news, imagine how sturdy a build you would get when you trained yourself in this way. You'd eventually (maybe) find a build that was legitimate against everything. Note you do have that leeway of an extra "150" minerals (that's a blind bunker that you could have instead of scouting). | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:15 Trump wrote: This trait of not scv scouting combined with the very few scans sjow throws is one of the most endearing things I find about him. I am also a 'believer' of the legitimacy of not scouting early. Though I might not agree with the blind build sjow does - it is a little dangerous, as incontrol puts, to void ray rush - I think having a pre-planned build regardless of what your opponent does is fine. You have less information yes, but how valuable is the info? Is it worth 100 minerals? (The general length of scouting time which you would have gathered by not scouting) Is it worth 150 minerals + say another 250 minerals by the 10 minute mark? (If you lose your scouting worker, which is commonplace) That's an expansion. I say this specifically from a terran point of view, by the way, a race in which I believe that it may be possible to hold off cheeses blindly and be competitive with your opponent even if you don't know what they're doing. It may even be a small advantage when the both of you turn out to be doing a 'standard' build. You're up a worker and some minerals, you might kill his worker. And then your opponent throws a scan to put himself further in the hole. The point is this: scouting is an important decision point. Is the extra (emphasis on EARLY information) information worth what I consider, on average, "150" minerals, at a point in which your build order mostly doesn't deviate? Trump says, for now, no In other news, imagine how sturdy a build you would get when you trained yourself in this way. You'd eventually (maybe) find a build that was legitimate against everything. Note you do have that leeway of an extra "150" minerals (that's a blind bunker that you could have instead of scouting). | ||
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imyzhang
Canada809 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Other way around.. the slower you are the more it matters to use proper hotkeys. You have to be a lot more effective. think u mean efficient as opposed to effective, and i completely agree with what you're saying. but i just mean, to sjow, he probably doesnt care much personally in regards to clicking on icons for the few researches that he chooses. | ||
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Everlong
Czech Republic1973 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:04 {88}iNcontroL wrote: This thread bothers me so much. There is no defense for not scouting. It's fucking terrible play. The mine time of a single scv and the potential information it gives is insurmountable. Some day he will start scouting and laugh at his past or he won't and will fade away as that low amp Terran that had some success early on when people didn't have the game figured out at all. You should think a bit more before showing such a disrespect. SjoW scouts with fast Hellion while doing 1-1-1 in a way it doesnt die to 3rax/vr. I watch his stream pretty offten and I havent seen a single game early scouting scv wouldve saved his ass. By the time this scv sees something important its either too late to react or his build is already designed to deal with it. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him" oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything. PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right? | ||
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Zidon
United States21 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote: hey everybody look it's a derp You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him" oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything. PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right? I don't actually think that matters. It all depends on the situation and Sjow puts himself in different situations than other players do which allows him to play like this. I tried to post the VOD to show that these situations do exist, not that they should be standard. For many players it may only be worth it 1/50 times, where it is worth it 49/50 for another. If Sjow has adjusted his style to his type of scouting then that will be different from the next 50 players who haven't. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote: Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play. And to back up my statement: I've seen him get caught off guard by mutalisks and other sneak attacks... That can easily be avoided by having better map awareness. Furthermore, nydus worms become a huge pain in the ass unless you have good awareness. And really, if you're floating on 2000 like he often is, you can afford that. Lol, this is just stupid. With a late scout people mean that he starts scouting with his first hellion rather than sending an SCV earlier on. Mutalisks and nydus worms come way later and there's no way you're going to scout them with your initial worker scout. Lack of scouting later in the game is not what the OP means to discuss. Overall I think not scouting early against Protoss and Zerg is ok when you wall in by default. SjoW mostly uses the same build over and over and it is pretty solid against most early game antics that Protoss and Zerg can throw at a Terran. | ||
Boxxer
83 Posts
On December 15 2010 01:20 gogogadgetflow wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 15 2010 01:15 Trump wrote: This trait of not scv scouting combined with the very few scans sjow throws is one of the most endearing things I find about him. I am also a 'believer' of the legitimacy of not scouting early. Though I might not agree with the blind build sjow does - it is a little dangerous, as incontrol puts, to void ray rush - I think having a pre-planned build regardless of what your opponent does is fine. You have less information yes, but how valuable is the info? Is it worth 100 minerals? (The general length of scouting time which you would have gathered by not scouting) Is it worth 150 minerals + say another 250 minerals by the 10 minute mark? (If you lose your scouting worker, which is commonplace) That's an expansion. I say this specifically from a terran point of view, by the way, a race in which I believe that it may be possible to hold off cheeses blindly and be competitive with your opponent even if you don't know what they're doing. It may even be a small advantage when the both of you turn out to be doing a 'standard' build. You're up a worker and some minerals, you might kill his worker. And then your opponent throws a scan to put himself further in the hole. The point is this: scouting is an important decision point. Is the extra (emphasis on EARLY information) information worth what I consider, on average, "150" minerals, at a point in which your build order mostly doesn't deviate? Trump says, for now, no In other news, imagine how sturdy a build you would get when you trained yourself in this way. You'd eventually (maybe) find a build that was legitimate against everything. Note you do have that leeway of an extra "150" minerals (that's a blind bunker that you could have instead of scouting). I read it in trumps voice as well lol. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Klorofyll
Norway30 Posts
1) Finding flaws in your opponents game 2) Adjusting to his moves Earlygame ppl dont wait with the supply depot and first rax untill they've scouted. They dont even with with the gas or OC, its their standard build. They wont find any flaws (1) they can abuse this early. And they wont adjust to what they see (2), hence scouting when you'r build is already preset in your mind is pointless. Now if your not just doing 3 rax no matter what, you can scout, but then thats because your gonna use 2) and hopefully 1). On steppes of war you see early scouting due to 2), and most PvZ u see the same to adjust to either a pool/hatch or a hatch/pool (might go forge first ala Huk). So yes, scouting is a very important part of the game, if you know your scouting for 1) and 2) and not just to go "oh shit he's doing banshee.. well im still doing my 4 gate push anyway so.." | ||
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DrakeFZX3
United States925 Posts
But then there's Sjow, who NEVER early scouts. There's a huge crack in his armor that could get sealed up if he early scouts more often rather than NEVER. This leaves him susceptible to all sorts of early game cheeses and whatnot. | ||
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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N0cturnal
United Kingdom40 Posts
If its protoss I always, always go for robo / obs as fast as possible in every matchup. It's pretty much essential imo with current patch (hopefully after scouting buff it will be easier) As zerg, I simply scout with well placed / hidden lords. No need to send drones whatsoever I dont think. Once lings are out you have run of the entire map if you play economically. Also, hatching before pool is pretty much cheese proof now. At least I'm yet to be successfully cheesed this patch. | ||
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