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On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
Haha, at least Im not acting like jesus Mr. Protoss whiner..
I think Im supposed to shut up, uninstall SC2 and try my luck in poker since Im trying to communicate with *** INCONTROL right?
You seem rather funny to me.. Oh, no offence.
Since you seem to get fame for flame I have nothing relevant to respond to.
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On December 15 2010 01:38 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right? Haha, at least Im not acting like jesus Mr. Protoss whiner.. I think Im supposed to shut up, uninstall SC2 and try my luck in poker since Im trying to communicate with *** INCONTROL right? You seem rather funny to me.. Oh, no offence. Since you seem to get fame for flame I have nothing relevant to respond to.
what the hell are you even talking about...
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
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On December 15 2010 01:38 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right? Haha, at least Im not acting like jesus Mr. Protoss whiner.. I think Im supposed to shut up, uninstall SC2 and try my luck in poker since Im trying to communicate with *** INCONTROL right? You seem rather funny to me.. Oh, no offence. Since you seem to get fame for flame I have nothing relevant to respond to.
You realize you are arguing based on "experience" when there's no real way for you to have the "experience" to make it a basis for an argument. This argument is merely a potential thing, there is are no real "facts" to go about.
That being said I think Incontrol and Nazgul are arguing on different wavelengths. Incontrol is saying that not early scouting has potential for more harm than good and Nazgul is saying that you don't always have to early scout if you are doing something that might not need early information. Both are correct yet both are kinda not arguing the same thing.
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I personally think that SjoW got an advantage in more games than he lost to not scouting early with his scvs. You should always consider that all gameplans have pros and cons, so pointing out games where he clearly lost due to not scouting with a scv (if you can find one that is) would not be a evidence to 'Not scouting with scv early is bad!'.
And I should add that I think it's more impressive to win games and play with low APM than players that do the same amount of things with high APM, and considering SjoW's achievements I can't see a reason for all the bashing by iNcontroL, and yes it's bashing, or are there not any good players right now, so the winning ones are automatically bad? :D
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On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right?
You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over.
As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers.
vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion.
vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker.
It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist.
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I've been playing Zerg since the beginning (only low diamond though... not good at all) But I would not consider a second not scouting my opponent. In the case of sjow, depending on his build, he might just want to trow a scan out there once to catch the info he needs at a certain time... job's done...
haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa..... the life of a terran is so simple these days...! 
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On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part.
Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
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I dissagree. There is no build that isn't altered based on what you see and can defend vs everything. PvT for an example you can 10gate zealot rush a terran that doesn't wall in. If he doesn't scout that he will get so hurt by the zealots that the game will be over after that. Also if he does wall and goes for a marine heavy build vs someone that does 2 gate before core stalker rush then he will lose without a bunker. So basically you need to scout what's coming one way or another. However the scout can be later in some builds.
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On December 15 2010 01:45 Rabbet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right? You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over. As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers. vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion. vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker. It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist.
This is really not adding anything to the discussion. Not to be harsh but no one really cares how you play since you aren't the top level or player this thread is about. Your experience in the matter isn't really the point of this discussion. It's Sjow's scouting and if there's potential for improvement or if it's just right. This has nothing to do with how you play so why on earth are you posting what you do.
Incontrols main argument appears to be that there are things that if not scouted could kill you but the gain from not scouting doesn't out weigh the potential to die.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here.
I should have early scouted this 
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In broodwar there are standard builds that have been refined by various pros for years to be able to respond to all early aggression. On top of that, unlike in sc2 pros know almost all of the possible openings their opponent could be doing and have practiced playing against them countless times already. They still scout every time.
The mineral gain from not scouting is not even close to the value of the information you get from scouting.
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On December 15 2010 01:46 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Yeah I think he called me a protoss whiner and something about uninstalling sc2. He was wrong about me whining and probably right about the uninstalling sc2 part. Oh well in that case it's a good thing this relates to the conversation... proceed
Such a passionate fun, arent you..
Please, If you have nothing to say on your own, than keep your mouth shut. No need to ruin this fun with Incontrol..
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On December 14 2010 21:49 Gigaudas wrote:Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it. Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard. Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote:
Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play. Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-1928-1-0-DESCDon't miss page 2! EDIT: Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line.
Well, you can't attribute his wins to his lack of scouting while you can say he lost several games because he didn't scout.
I'm sure if he scouted he would still wins numerous tournaments while also eliminating several losses which happened cause of no scouting.
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On December 15 2010 01:50 MayorITC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 21:49 Gigaudas wrote:On December 14 2010 21:40 Headshot wrote:
Why doesn't he scout? Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it. Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard. On December 14 2010 21:44 vOdToasT wrote:
Well personally I just think he's pretty bad. His style of no scouting is not a "style"... it's just poor play. Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-1928-1-0-DESCDon't miss page 2! EDIT: Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line. Well, you can't attribute his wins to his lack of scouting while you can say he lost several games because he didn't scout. I'm sure if he scouted he would still wins numerous tournaments while also eliminating several losses which happened cause of no scouting.
This is the core issue. Does not early scouting give a benefit more than the potential risks IF there are potential risks? Is getting a mineral advantage better than dying?
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On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote:And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here. I should have early scouted this
And people like Jinro/Nazghul dont find it so difficult..Maybe its because these two dont start their contributions with this "Im progamer and I speak in name of god" feel?
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On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote:And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here. I should have early scouted this
Well you came out kinda strong Gonna make the noobs rage. I thought this was intentional since you are a banling
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On December 15 2010 01:53 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote:And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here. I should have early scouted this And people like Jinro/Nazghul dont find it so difficult..Maybe its because these two dont start their contributions with this "Im progamer and I speak in name of god" feel?
Still, it would be a better discussion if the best players debated this, instead of a bunch of random bronze-diamond people proclaiming their vast experience and knowledge about the matter.
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On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote:And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here. I should have early scouted this
That's not true, IdrA posts everytime he has something offensive or stupid to say
Why did everyone get so mad though, what started out as a normal discussion turned into a flamewar. Maybe people could express their views without sounding like a douchebag at the same time, or acting like they're above others.
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On December 15 2010 01:49 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:45 Rabbet wrote:On December 15 2010 01:25 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
hey everybody look it's a derp
You are like "well I watched every game he ever played and not a single time would a scouting scv have saved him"
oh! Ok! I had no idea jesus walked into the thread and knew everything.
PS: naz for every vod you can show of a player not scv scouting in a high level match you DO realize I can show you 50 of them scouting right? You just sound mad now. It really is not that important to get mad over. As far as the topic at hand. I have changed my game after watching SJOW play. I am T and I no longer early SCV scout vP and vZ. There is little useful information that would cause me to change my build that a 12 SCV scout could gather. vZ I use a hellion to scout their tech path and check placements of spine crawlers. vP I don't really care about their tech path but use an scv to scout their expansion timing in at around 25 supply. In both instances I can hold off any standard timing attacks while setting myself up for a fairly early expansion. vT I have to scout to watch for marine/scv all in that if I don't scout can actually take down my wall and not leave enough time to build a bunker. It is actually a benefit to me on a 4 player map that everyone scouts at specific times, it takes some of the guesswork out of knowing their position. Also, before I stopped scouting I had several losses because of mis-information being fed to me and me over reacting to a situation that didn't exist. This is really not adding anything to the discussion. Not to be harsh but no one really cares how you play since you aren't the top level or player this thread is about. Your experience in the matter isn't really the point of this discussion. It's Sjow's scouting and if there's potential for improvement or if it's just right. This has nothing to do with how you play so why on earth are you posting what you do. Incontrols main argument appears to be that there are things that if not scouted could kill you but the gain from not scouting doesn't out weigh the potential to die.
I don't agree.
The question here is not theorical, the question is : does a 12 scv scout will allow you to scout something useful ?
There is no experience needed here, this is all about timings. And if in 80% of the times you won't scout anything useful, does the minerals gained are more valuable than the scouting information ?
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EPT
