On December 15 2010 00:45 UberSquirrel wrote: I just love how people completely bash one of the best EU Terrans for doing something out of the ordinary, rather than thinking to themselves: "Why would he do that? There must be a damn good reason for him doing something that much out of the ordinary."
Again, he's one of the best EU players. He has an amazing win-percentage and won a lot of tournaments. I'm pretty sure he's not just being lazy.
So explain him clicking siege and cloak then. There is NO reason for doing that. It just slows you down.
On December 15 2010 00:45 UberSquirrel wrote: I just love how people completely bash one of the best EU Terrans for doing something out of the ordinary, rather than thinking to themselves: "Why would he do that? There must be a damn good reason for him doing something that much out of the ordinary."
Again, he's one of the best EU players. He has an amazing win-percentage and won a lot of tournaments. I'm pretty sure he's not just being lazy.
So explain him clicking siege and cloak then. There is NO reason for doing that. It just slows you down.
lol, "slows u down" he plays with low apm already, i dont think it matters much to him.
Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel. Again; early scouting depends on your build and your intentions to adjust yes/no, your race, the map and probably a bunch of other factors as well.
That's kinda weird though, that he didn't scout. Not saying that it was a mistake because i think maybe flash knows a little more about the game than me... but usually he scouts earlier.
most modern BW terran pros dont scout early really if they are going to do the build they want to do, its just most SC BW players played the game for years they dont see this anymore. Watch flash games closely he scouts as late as he can (with scv that made the rax) on positions only for the 12 nex. After that only poke in for the expo timing that way you gather all the intel you need. SC2 is a different game and since with 1/1/1 you always get a helion you can use the helion to do this job.
InControl. I noticed you took offense from my comment. I apologize for the glare. I just wanted to point out about what you said that you've seen SjoW lose to VR pushes. Yes, this can happen to the best of us. If the protoss efficiently hides his tech then it can be hard. But this is not an early game cheese. At the very least its mid game (2 void rays to for it be effective) so then its a matter of missed scanning/mid-game scouting.
When it comes to early scout...well I guess he's just confident with the build he has, otherwise im quite sure he'd start scouting. Its not like he doesnt know what early game scouting is, and what advantages/disadvantages it has
My low level opinion and i mean really low level is that early scout is important but not that important! I mean if sjow opts for a later scout and gets away with it, is it because he's a genius and it was a top play? and when he looses is it always because of the late scout?
I mean come on guys.. it's not that black or white..
Imagine this a protoss is going for cheese and it gets spotted will he change his gameplan or stick with it? now imagine the other way around a protoss is going for a macro game and then notices that his opponent is not going to scout, will he change the gameplan and go for a timing push, all-in or cheese or stick with what he planned?
Late scout can mess with your opponnent head.. if you expect something and it doesn't happen, it can bring doubt into your game!
Anyways i think sjow is a very good player and he has many things to improve.. if he does improve he will be a monster!
Well, he obviously know what he's doing. But he does lose to a lot of cheese. Don't understand why people don't cheese him all the time. Just a couple of days ago he lost to a 2gate, had his opponent done the exact same time the second game, he'd won the set.
And really, knowing if, where and when your opponent takes an expo is really worth the extra scv mid-game. I've seen him letting his opponent keep unsafe expos he'd easily could've taken down.
But what do I know, he could very well be aware of it and not care/know something I don't. His style works, so creds to him for it.
On December 15 2010 00:46 Brutus wrote: Oh come on, this has to be the worst argument EVER. let me start off by saying it is a completely different game. Second, just because he can pull it off doesn't mean it is "good" or anything.
Wait, let me fish up vods and replays of terrans that are about 100 times more accomplished then Sjow. And guess what, they all scv scout.
It's disappointing you aren't able to see that the argument in this thread transcends perfectly between the two games.
I'm not showing this video because he can pull it off, I'm showing it because it shows someone with a great RTS mind agreeing it has its uses in certain situations, and thus at the very least people in this thread should give it some more thought. Whether he wins the game or not doesn't matter, just the fact that a top Terran was thinking like this is very relevant to the discussion because it shows us different opinions may be viable.
Inc; What if that very good build cannot be executed if you scout early, this leaves you with the choice between scouting, or executing that very good build correctly?
Obviously we would all agree that it would be bad to scout with one of the very first workers, simply since the the information you gain will be way to costly - and you will gain the exact same information if you had delayed that scout, so the question should probably be WHEN it is bestto scout?
Great, you showed one video of Flash not scouting, for unknown reasons, but he still scouts 99% of the time. Just because there may be a specific build, on a specific map, against a specific player that might benefit from not scouting does not mean Sjow's never ever scout approach to the game is nothing more than poor play.
Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel. Again; early scouting depends on your build and your intentions to adjust yes/no, your race, the map and probably a bunch of other factors as well.
Here's another example.
Flash is so good it's not even funny. ^__^ BUT! Sjow does this literally every single game, Flash almost always scouts with a worker early on and only rarely does stuff like this. If he didn't scout in most games, there's no way he would be anywhere close to being as successful as he is now. People would abuse that lack of scouting so hard. So to have it as a rule of thumb to never worker scout like Sjow has is really not viable in the long run. There is no build that is safe against everything without any adjustment (well, you might do something hyper defensive, but that wouldn't be a very efficient build anyway), so as soon as he gets figured out he's going to have to adapt by employing SCV scouts at least every now and then or I don't think he'll be able to compete in high level tournaments.
On December 15 2010 00:46 Brutus wrote: Oh come on, this has to be the worst argument EVER. let me start off by saying it is a completely different game. Second, just because he can pull it off doesn't mean it is "good" or anything.
Wait, let me fish up vods and replays of terrans that are about 100 times more accomplished then Sjow. And guess what, they all scv scout.
It's disappointing you aren't able to see that the argument in this thread transcends perfectly between the two games.
I'm not showing this video because he can pull it off, I'm showing it because it shows someone with a great RTS mind agreeing it has its uses in certain situations, and thus at the very least people in this thread should give it some more thought. Whether he wins the game or not doesn't matter, just the fact that a top Terran was thinking like this is very relevant to the discussion because it shows us different opinions may be viable.
it doesn't transcends perfectly. BW is a game that is way more figured out, so BO losses and other shenanigans are a lot less common. If you play ladder games there is an absurd amount of BO someone is able to do that DO require a response.
I just haven't seen anyone convincing me that the mining time of 1 scv is less of a strain than being completely in the dark. The information you get from sending that scv is in 99% of the cases worth much more than a little bit of mining time.
What matters here is that he (Sjow) obviously sees a benefit in it that he thinks works well for him. Moreover, every opponent he plays knows he doesn't scout, and has known that for a while now, and can exploit it in any way he wishes, and yet Sjow still manages to do well.
It's wrong to dismiss it as something completely retarded, when there is obviously some thought process and structure behind what he does, and when it obviously produces results. Being a higher APM player who does scout and has less macro bumps than Sjow and still being nowhere nearly as good myself, I would kill to be able to get inside his head and see what's going on there and how he does it.
Anyway, I think that a lot of people are prone to simply accepting BW preconceptions and preconceptions about gameplay in general as Nazgul pointed out. Big part of being good is understanding the game, and when you notice somebody who should by all standards be horrible but isn't, you should probably think twice before dismissing anything he does.
He definitely shouldn't start scouting just to satisfy the mob. If he isn't willing/capable of adapting his play based on what he scouts, he shouldn't scout and if it works for him, good for him. The point what many here are arguing is that if you are capable of using that information, it's more beneficial to scout than not. There may be specific exceptions to this, but overall it should, hopefully, hold true.
I think the issues between Nazgul and Incontrol can only be settled by a grudge match now.
On the scouting-thing I think that it's highly map dependent. To not scout on steppes or meta close pos seems really weird to me, you can easily let's say spot a 4 warpgate rush if toss takes delayed gas. Also, especially on close positions I can't imagine how you can actually do builds that are fully, like 100% independent of what your opponent is doing....as already mentioned, sjow tends to die to stuff like void ray all-ins unnecessarily often.
i'd say for TvZ and TvP it matters less. terran is both very strong early game and can wall very effectively, and so they're immune to a good amount of cheese. if you're going a good, safe build, there's not much of a benefit to scouting a zerg or protoss early since they can't really touch you.
zerg and protoss and terran in TvT, however, should definitely scout early.
The question is : does a 11 scv scout allows to see something useful ? - against zerg : no (your scv will die before scouting anything useful) - against terran : no (same) - against protoss : sometimes...but mostly no. Scv will die before stargate is up and you'll only see one gate core.
So, if you have good scout timings with a reaper and your first helion/marine, I can really understand why someone wouldn't scv-scout. At least, it doesn't seems bad, there are pros and cons.
EPT
is that early scout is important but not that important! I mean if sjow opts for a later scout and gets away with it, is it because he's a genius and it was a top play? and when he looses is it always because of the late scout?
