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Trentelshark
Canada385 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:27 LittleeD wrote: I wish we could get SjoW in here to clear up some misunderstandings Hasn't he already said somewhere (can't remember where) that he doesn't scout early game because it's not going to change his opening regardless even if he sees an imminent all-in or proxy for example? | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
I see this as sort of a 2 fold type thing. You should scout, that is really the end of the story in 99.9% of the cases(For example I have an Sling build I do from time to time when I just want a short game and I don't scout because I'm doing it regardless of what the opponent does. It either works or it doesn't). I just feel like with this particular player the reason the no scouting thing works for him is more because everyone knows he doesn't scout. Just feel like when you are playing him it can mess with you because you know he isn't going to scout, so should you cheese? Should you just play standard? And on top of it you know going into the game he is going to have a very crisp build because he has his plan the minute the game starts it won't change based on what you do. So I think there is almost a mind game because the player is known and that CAN at times work out. However most players don't have that reputation so you aren't going to have some weird advantage going into the game. I just think I've seen times when players have lost to him because they know he doesn't scout and they try to do a play to take advantage of that, but it isn't something they normally do(like a cheese play) and it actually works against them. But to make a comment like "will this become the standard" is just crazy. Obviously this isn't anything standard, shouldn't be the standard, and won't become the standard. This just happens to be a rare circumstance that works for this particular player and his style, but really shouldn't be copied. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:23 syllogism wrote: It's disrespectful to criticize bad play? His accomplishments are almost completely irrelevant to the discussion. I've to say I find it disappointing when someone like Nazgul just dances around the subject rather than says what he really thinks, unless, of course, he really thinks not scouting is good. I've clearly said that if you take all the top level tournament games that there's tons of players in there picking build orders that they aren't going to adjust no matter what they see. All of those guys should not be scouting as early as they are. These guys scouting early with build orders they don't intend on adjusting based on what they see is bad. Sjow picking a build he does not intend on adjusting and thus not scouting is something that can be good if the builds are properly designed for it. However because it is commonly accepted to scout as early as possible and as much as possible nobody is able to look beyond scouting as much as possible anymore. People need to go back to understanding why they are scouting instead of just doing it for the hell of it. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Trentelshark
Canada385 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:30 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I've clearly said that if you take all the top level tournament games that there's tons of players in there picking build orders that they aren't going to adjust no matter what they see. All of those guys should not be scouting as early as they are. These guys scouting early with build orders they don't intend on adjusting based on what they see is bad. Sjow picking a build he does not intend on adjusting and thus not scouting is something that can be good if the builds are properly designed for it. However because it is commonly accepted to scout as early as possible and as much as possible nobody is able to look beyond scouting as much as possible anymore. People need to go back to understanding why they are scouting instead of just doing it for the hell of it. Like Day9 said in one daily (in response to a viewer question on scouting) if you don't know what you're looking for, or can't interpret what you see, don't bother scouting because you're simply wasting your gathering time/units. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
So drone scouting is generally not worthwhile in ZvZ, the important information comes after lings are out people scout with lings (and do some spotting with OLs of course). I don't think many people would argue that this is definitively bad, or at least we don't know yet if there is a 100% need for drone scouting in ZvZ and the current games seems to suggest there isn't and that it's better not to drone scout. Given that it's clear there's a case for not drone scouting in some situations. Maybe ZvZ is the ONLY situation, but maybe it isn't. Either way we have a precedence that not drone scouting isn't full out terrible and there may be other reasons you don't do it. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
People who are pro-not scouting don't face a lot of cheese or aren't zerg players. Information is everything. | ||
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4Servy
Netherlands1542 Posts
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Deadlyfish
Denmark1980 Posts
I mean i get that he might not change his build that much, but i dont think he can just do the same build over and over without caring what his opponent does. If that was true then why wouldnt everyone be doing that build? There really is no reason not to scout. Also, SjoW clicks alot. He clicks cloak and siege which slows him down. There is also nothing beneficial about this, it's just a stupid thing to do. It's amazing that SjoW is so good and yet he does these sorts of things. | ||
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Trentelshark
Canada385 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:31 {88}iNcontroL wrote: I'm talking about early game scout people. Read my posts please. This is why it's being considered to have a forum where people read what top gamers say and not be allowed to interact. It's actually impossible to post without 30 people being dumb about it. I'm not saying he never fucking scans or doesn't use a hellion to check the god damn towers I'm talking about a guy who never knows if he is getting proxied or facing a 1 gas p or a 6 pool. Maybe the argument some are trying to get across (and failing to properly communicate) is even with early scouting, how many adequately prepare for the inevitable based on their intel? Take GSL3 for example. There have been so many games where even the potential for an early all-in push, or proxy build, was at least probable based on what their intial scout saw and they didn't do enough with that information. Yes there were some situations where it didn't matter if they saw it or not because their opening left them completely vulnerable/unprepared, but there were cases where anything would have been better than nothing, so that initial scout was nothing but wasted gathering time. If that's occurring in GSL3 then the general SC2 population definitely isn't going to react accordingly in all situations since the pros are pros for a reason  .I agree there are perks to sending out that first early scout to look for potential all-ins/rushes/proxies, no doubt about that, but I can also see the perks of going with say a first Hellion scout if you don't intend to change your opening regardless. It's always a trade-off so I don't think either option is wrong, but each has their pros and cons. | ||
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Telcontar
United Kingdom16710 Posts
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:35 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Again naz is arguing that people are not understanding what/why they are scouting when in fact what we are discussing is why it's bad to not scout at all in the early game. There are builds that are GOOD vs almost everything but what build wouldn't benefit from his amazing understanding of the game PLUS some early info? How is it we are sitting here acting like every osl / msl champion ever didn't early game scout? All the t's btw... That are better than him... Early game scout. Different games.. I think it might not be AS big of a deal (obviously circumstantial) as people make it out to be. It's pretty hard to pin point why SjoW is such a successful player seeing as his macro is subpar, micro good but nothing special and he even refrains from scouting early game. I think the key thing is solid builds. Beyond that he has a tendency to invest in army, mainly for poking/harassing, at an early point in the game which means he's less vulnerable to unscouted aggression. The thing about "cheese" in sc2 is it's typically just about getting out a shit ton of units at a time where your opponent expects you to have less capability for offense (4gate, 3rax, VR, roach breaks etc, etc) and so it isn't countered by anyone seeing it 1 minute prior to the attack and then saying "oh okay I need to get more production structures and get out a ton of units and that way I'ma counter his cheese." Solid builds is the way you hold that off. Besides, a timed reaper scout or whatever is bound to find out a hell of a lot more than the mandatory super-predictable 10 scv. | ||
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UberSquirrel
Netherlands22 Posts
Again, he's one of the best EU players. He has an amazing win-percentage and won a lot of tournaments. I'm pretty sure he's not just being lazy. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:18 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Oh ok scouting is bad. Everyone here please take note and start applying this. I wont but i would appreciate it if you guys would. No. Proper scouting is good. Wasted scouting is bad. The question then becomes what is "proper scouting" and is Sjow doing it or not. And that's the debate you should have. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel. Again; early scouting depends on your build and your intentions to adjust yes/no, your race, the map and probably a bunch of other factors as well. | ||
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Brutus
Netherlands284 Posts
On December 15 2010 00:34 Logo wrote: There are still clearly cases where drone scouting is unnecessary. For example ZvZ almost never has drone scouting because your build wouldn't change even with the drone scout. If you are going for early hatch, you're committed to it anyways because by time you drone scout you'll have the hatch down. If you are going for a normal pool time you're committed to that and safe vs any early pool anyways. If you're going for an early pool well you get the idea. So drone scouting is generally not worthwhile in ZvZ, the important information comes after lings are out people scout with lings (and do some spotting with OLs of course). I don't think many people would argue that this is definitively bad, or at least we don't know yet if there is a 100% need for drone scouting in ZvZ and the current games seems to suggest there isn't and that it's better not to drone scout. Given that it's clear there's a case for not drone scouting in some situations. Maybe ZvZ is the ONLY situation, but maybe it isn't. Either way we have a precedence that not drone scouting isn't full out terrible and there may be other reasons you don't do it. I was being very careful talking about T scouting because I play zerg, but this is wrong on so many levels. The only time when you can afford not to scout is a baneling opening, even if you want to go roach you have to know what he is doing. Throwing a roach den down and gas means 2 drones less and less lings vs a 6/7 pool. These little things can mean game over. It's true you are committed to your hatch, but the pool timing is important. If you see him early pooling you need to get it asap, you can get it like 3 drones(!!) later when he is expanding himself. These differences are huge. And then you need to know if he is making lings, drones or if he is going to expand himself. Early scout is very very important in ZvZ. On the scv scouting, if you read Incontrol posts it should be 120% clear why you need to do it. On December 15 2010 00:45 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB4baxidwLg&feature=player_embedded Good example of someone who felt he was safer vs everything by having enough minerals and turtling to counter all options, past the mark where he is able to scout his opponent for useful intel. Oh come on, this has to be the worst argument EVER. let me start off by saying it is a completely different game. Second, just because he can pull it off doesn't mean it is "good" or anything. Wait, let me fish up vods and replays of terrans that are about 100 times more accomplished then Sjow. And guess what, they all scv scout. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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knL
Germany400 Posts
I hope this make some kind of sense with my english :O | ||
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