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On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us?
Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
User was warned for this post
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On December 15 2010 05:29 cosmincontra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:24 KCrazy wrote:I don't get this  So the argument in defense is that he has no need to early scout because he wouldn't change anything to optimize his build based off of his opponent? I don't know if it's because i play zerg, but there's ALWAYS something to tweak after drone scouting To neglect that just seems silly to me? for zerg its probably true, but because of things like bunkers, terrans using his build can scout early attacks relatively late and still have a good chance at holding them off
It's still situationally mandatory for zerg. Several maps/starting locations don't demand you drone scout. Close Air ZvT LT you can sometimes get by without drone scouting due to overlords. ZvP you can if you scout close air first (or are on scrap station), but I don't recommend it. In my experience if you scout them close air and spot 2 rax there's really no need to send a drone scout to reconfirm that they do infact have 2 raxs and there's not really a way that a drone will live long enough to properly determine any more information beyond that. So you make your adjustments and use lings/overlords to do the follow up scouting later on. Though typically for me such a scout timing means more that the drone scout is 1/2 way across the map and you send them back rather than leave him out there to scout what you've already seen.
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Had to create an account to say this, which is really stupid since noone is going to read it anyways because its my first post. And TL.net seems to be all'bout the elitism, which i like, but not when im trying to get MY point of view across..
Viewing this in poker-terms, S-JAOUUs play makes more sense to me.
Right now, with the current state of the game and its players, it is simply +EV for HIM to do it like this. Could his BB/100 increase from scouting? Maybe, maybe not, not going to go into that.
However; When everyone starts cheesing him constantly it will tilt the scale more and more into the part of his range that is actually loosing and the EV will go down.
At that point he might have to tighten up his range, open up his PFR or increase his 3be... You get it.
Or; he wont start loosing that much more and the game might just not work the way we think it does.
Its just going to be fun watching all the morons gloat at how "they knew it was stupid not to scout, he just survived on terran being OP" (which they clearly are btw, like omg!) when its really just a metagame thing and there is no objective right and wrong to it.
You can even point out situations where scouting hurt you more than it helped you; When an opponent is putting down some sort of tech only to cancel it when your scv leaves and in all your scouting glory you go home and hard counter that n00b..
Stupid example right? God what a noob.
Again; right NOW, in the current state of the game and its players, this accounts for maybe 0.1% of losses? However, the point is that this number could change drasticly with patches, new race-mechanics in expansions etc. Imagine for instance one of the developers being high and giving probes a "Projection" ability that would be like the good old fake buildings from other games. This would increase that measly 0.1% to maybe 0.3%, the mind truely boogles.
Thats pretty much my point. That the mind truely boogles. Mostly at the state of team liquid. I mean, HuK right, he just totally hates select and threatend to kill China.
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Considering the scout costs you almost nothing besides some APM in the beginning of the game where you don't know what to do with your apm anyway and are happy to get some warmup, I think you should scout. Some thread during beta pointed out how few minerals you actually lose doing it.
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On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
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On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period.
Doesn't really matter because if it works then it's good enough, the objective of the game to win, not play perfectly, spectators want to see perfect play but then it's not a game made for spectators so that doesn't matter either.
All Sjow needs to do is play to win, and he does this very well.
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An interesting aspect of this that people haven't brought up is that NOT Scouting is also giving information to your opponent. A great example is ZvP, if you don't get 9 pylon scouted (or 11 probe on some smaller maps) then that gives you good information about what they're very likely doing. You know as zerg it's usually ++++ for them to want to block your expo or scout for early pool/aggression. Them not doing so instead tips you off that they might be doing something where they want you to expand (14Nexus, 2Gate, or cannon rush for example).
So when Sjow doesn't drone scout you he's basically telling you that he's opening something with a fast marine and/or fast hellion. That immediately tells you he's not going to be making a tech lab off the bat, and/or is probably throwing down a fast factory.
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Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming
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On December 14 2010 22:57 LittleeD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2010 22:27 cArn- wrote:
Just throwing that out there, I remember SjoW explaining this himself saying that he chooses not to scout because he prefers having solid builds able to hold anything rather than rely on scouting hurting his economy, especially when scouting is most of the time not telling much beside if the opponent is cheesing or not, and if your build is good you'll be able to hold it anyway, which joins what Nazgul was saying.
True. He's 'kinda' hinting towards it in this video interview: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163425
Question #10:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=161212
He more than hints at it imo, it is about *safe* builds more than anything.
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On December 15 2010 05:40 Quecks wrote:
Had to create an account to say this, which is really stupid since noone is going to read it anyways because its my first post. And TL.net seems to be all'bout the elitism, which i like, but not when im trying to get MY point of view across..
Viewing this in poker-terms...
LoL !
You didn't view it in "poker-terms" though. Just say "probability terms" or something next time; it more accurately represents what you were trying to say.
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On December 15 2010 05:48 Logo wrote:
An interesting aspect of this that people haven't brought up is that NOT Scouting is also giving information to your opponent. A great example is ZvP, if you don't get 9 pylon scouted (or 11 probe on some smaller maps) then that gives you good information about what they're very likely doing. You know as zerg it's usually ++++ for them to want to block your expo or scout for early pool/aggression. Them not doing so instead tips you off that they might be doing something where they want you to expand (14Nexus, 2Gate, or cannon rush for example).
So when Sjow doesn't drone scout you he's basically telling you that he's opening something with a fast marine and/or fast hellion. That immediately tells you he's not going to be making a tech lab off the bat, and/or is probably throwing down a fast factory.
Yes but in the tournaments he plays everybody knows what he is doing anyway because he is a well known player, the no scout doesn't tell them anything they don't already know, most of the people will already know he is going 1/1/1 with no scout, and most still die by his hand so....
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On December 15 2010 05:48 syllogism wrote:
Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming
That's fine and most people would agree but if you are going to go that route and pick one scenario where Sjow's style is bad you have to look at all scenarios if you want answer the op's actual question.
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On December 15 2010 05:51 Boxxer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:48 Logo wrote:
An interesting aspect of this that people haven't brought up is that NOT Scouting is also giving information to your opponent. A great example is ZvP, if you don't get 9 pylon scouted (or 11 probe on some smaller maps) then that gives you good information about what they're very likely doing. You know as zerg it's usually ++++ for them to want to block your expo or scout for early pool/aggression. Them not doing so instead tips you off that they might be doing something where they want you to expand (14Nexus, 2Gate, or cannon rush for example).
So when Sjow doesn't drone scout you he's basically telling you that he's opening something with a fast marine and/or fast hellion. That immediately tells you he's not going to be making a tech lab off the bat, and/or is probably throwing down a fast factory. Yes but in the tournaments he plays everybody knows what he is doing anyway, the no scout doesn't tell them anything they don't already know, most of the people will already know he is going 1/1/1 with no scout, and most still die by his hand so....
Well yeah, saying someone who does a similar opening 100% of the time means their opponents know their opening 100% of the time doesn't really tell us much. But there's also nothing keeping Sjow from doing something else other than his style/preference. If a tournament win is on the line you aren't going to just flat out assume he's 100% going 1:1:1, plus for other players who may mix it up more my point still applies.
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United States1154 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:48 syllogism wrote:
Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming
It has also been pointed out multiple times that there are advantages/solid reasons behind not scouting until your first marine or hellion. Your first hellion not getting to scout will tell you just as much information as your SCV being killed by the enemies first Stalker or Marine.
I like the idea of not scouting with your early worker. How many times have I heard in a cast "Well once this scout gets taken care of we'll see what build player X has in mind"? So if more often than not that scout will not see the setup of early tech, why bother sending it? Keep it at home, use the few extra minerals to get out an extra marine or quicker hellion, and then scout when you will actually be able to find useful information.
Many thanks to Sjow and Merz for coming to the thread and sharing their opinions and reasoning. It makes a lot of sense to me.
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On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION.
Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances. I hate to burst your bubble dude, but Starcraft just doesn't roll that way. I fully understand that SjoW doesn't feel the need to react until his marine is out, but that doesn't make it optimal play.
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On December 15 2010 05:56 AJMcSpiffy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:48 syllogism wrote:
Scouting proxy 2 gate with your first marine is infinitely worse than with an scv, as has been pointed out several times and the first hellion doesn't even get to scout if the enemy wants to prevent it from coming It has also been pointed out multiple times that there are advantages/solid reasons behind not scouting until your first marine or hellion. Your first hellion not getting to scout will tell you just as much information as your SCV being killed by the enemies first Stalker or Marine. I like the idea of not scouting with your early worker. How many times have I heard in a cast "Well once this scout gets taken care of we'll see what build player X has in mind"? So if more often than not that scout will not see the setup of early tech, why bother sending it? Keep it at home, use the few extra minerals to get out an extra marine or quicker hellion, and then scout when you will actually be able to find useful information. Many thanks to Sjow and Merz for coming to the thread and sharing their opinions and reasoning. It makes a lot of sense to me.
At least they seem to have put some thought into it, something a lot of players would benefit from. Is it better to scout early? Perhaps, but at least players like Sjow keeps us questioning the things we do because it's just something we are "supposed" to be doing.
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On December 15 2010 05:49 ParasitJonte wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:40 Quecks wrote:
Had to create an account to say this, which is really stupid since noone is going to read it anyways because its my first post. And TL.net seems to be all'bout the elitism, which i like, but not when im trying to get MY point of view across..
Viewing this in poker-terms... LoL ! You didn't view it in "poker-terms" though. Just say "probability terms" or something next time; it more accurately represents what you were trying to say.
Dude, i used alot of poker word right there, like 3be..
Yeah, probability. It really is a numbers game. You dont get 3200pts diamond league, i mean DIAMOND league ladies and gentlemen, or win multiple tours by winning that one game of cheese that you just haaave to scout before the 2min mark.
For now, the numbers are that this is a viable way to play. But what do i know, i only have 2 posts on this thing.
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On December 15 2010 05:57 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 05:43 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 05:39 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 05:06 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:58 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:On December 15 2010 04:48 meRz wrote:On December 15 2010 04:43 FrostedMiniWeet wrote:
In Starcraft there are no perfect builds that don't need scouting. Predictability can always be taken advantage of, so if your opponent knows exactly what you are going to do, and when you are going to scout and how, that is a fairly significant advantage, and a good player will capitalize on it with a custom tailored build to put him in the lead, and a great player will ride that lead to victory. Kyrix is a perfect example of the downfall of predictability. You are still missing the point. His builds aren't perfect up to the point that they require no scouting. His builds are of the kind that even if he were to scout with his first scv, that wouldn't change how he'd execute it (early on). Instead it aims to adapt to your opponents play later on, which can be scouted with lets say, a Hellion. People need to realize that SjoW does actually scout, just not in the traditional way. Things that always needs to be adapted to early on (2 gate proxy gatesways) are scoutable with your first marine and still leaves time to react and defend. Why not use a combat unit then, like the marine, instead of an scv that actually can provide more income? I fully understand this principle, but my point is that this is not a good principle. If you scout and see your opponent nexus first, and don't modify your build in the slightest to take advantage of the fact that you won't be rushed at all, then you are not playing optimally, period. If your build can hold off an early rush, and keep up in a macro econ game, then it is doing both un-optimally. Playing like this will get you absolutely nowhere in the GSL, or other tournaments with equally skilled players. On the NA or Euro Ladder, sure, you can pull it off. This is why SjoW held the #1 GG.net ranking in EU for like a month and is constantly beating both top NA players and top EU players(of equal skill so to say)? All who have at least tried to abuse his scouting early on at least once? Sure there are ways to abuse it, but everytime it gets abused to the point where sjow actually loses purely on not scouting (the 2 gateway incident) he ADAPTS. Like before the game vs slider where he lost vs a quick 2 gate proxy, he wasn't using his marine to scout. The two games after that, he used his marine to scout for any early proxy and still gets the +income advantage while having time to react, and won the series 2-1. I still think he's right about that the way HE plays doesn't require early game scv scouting. About the nexus first thing, believe me it's been tried out. SjoW already mentioned he doesn't believe there's much difference between how you adapt to a nexus first than a 1 gateway nexus build. His hellion got to the expo within the time frame a 1 gateway expo would go up, then he'd adapt. If his hellion gets there and sees the nexus up slightly earlier, he'll still adapt in the same manner as he would vs a 1 gate expand. I don't know about GSL though since I've never ever played any of the koreans except oGsInCa. But I for one believe the koreans are being held way too high above everyone else in sc2 currently. The game is still new, things are still being figured out, there are not 8-10 proteams currently practicing 12 hours a day in starcraft 2, why would they be so much better than us? Doing the exact same thing vs a proxy 2 gate and a 16 nexus is not optimal, period. Oh man.. Why do I even bother? Did you actually read the thread at all except for my reply towards you? I've stated; The build SjoW is using doesn't benefit from an early scv scout because 1) The early information needed to adapt to a quick proxy 2 gate is easily obtainable with your FIRST MARINE rather than your scv, thus he can still keep the +income vs a 2 gate proxy. 2) The midgame information needed to adapt is easily obtainable with his first HELLION. Dude, you're missing the point. I don't care how SjoW reacts, it is not optimal if you do the same thing vs a 2 gate proxy and a 16 nexus, period. There is no argument here. So you think the optimal build against a 2 gate is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs a 16 nexus is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? You think the optimal build vs ANYTHING is a 1-1-1 no scout until marine? Wow, perhaps you ought to tell all these crappy GSL Terrans about this "new Terran standard for all matchups" as its clearly the best build for all circumstances.
Doing something optimally can sometimes out weigh the benefit of doing the optimal thing suboptimally. So don't take it as a given that you can just bend and break all your builds based on scouting information to get better results. A extreme example is if I 6 pool but scout 2 rax with a wall-off I can't just transition into a 2 hatch ling defense that seems to be optimal vs that sort of opening.
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The opportunity cost is too great. No build is truly "safe". The said "economy lose" is worth much less than the potential lose of a game. Though, agreeing with Nazgul scouting holds different priorities for different races, but I just don't think Terran is really that safe.
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On December 15 2010 01:49 {88}iNcontroL wrote:And this is why nony/idra and everybody else have stopped posting in here. I should have early scouted this
Well that isn't very fair. For one, if they did post more and smacked down the tards maybe the tards wouldn't tard as much. Also, too easy to cop out as soon as a bad apple drops, which is inevitable on a forum where wide discussion takes place.
This idea of only top level players discussing things is fantastic but I am not about to pay money to read you and Idra's IM chats if that is where this road leads 
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EPT
