EPTSjow style no scouting - overlooked? - Page 20
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SichuanPanda
Canada1542 Posts
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:51 Quecks wrote: Wow, didnt know you thought SjoW was THAT good? 3200pts and placeing pretty much every tour he plays with that much of a self-imposed handicap? Damn. Imagine if he just saw that gateway and gas. It's not that much of a handicap really. Unless I'm doing the math wrong... if you had a 51% chance (+1% because you didn't scout) to win 9/10 and a 30% chance to win 1/10 (-20% chance because you did worker scout) then your overall win rate would be 48.9%. If it was an ~10% or less disadvantage then his overall win rate would be equal to or greater than 50%. Of course in reality if it's a 20% weakness then opponents knowing his trends can exploit that so it happens more often than 1/10, but that's a different point all together. | ||
vdale
Germany1173 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:41 Manifesto7 wrote: No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous. Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs. This thread is more about a specific build and scouting with an early scv (you won't see dt tech with this scv anyway) and if you really need that early scouting information. Nobody wants to apply it as a principle to general gameplay. | ||
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SmoKim
Denmark10305 Posts
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Quecks
Sweden6 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:41 Manifesto7 wrote: No. You are completely wrong. Because those two extra marines aren't going to do shit vs the dts you didn't see, and they aren't going to kill the double expand you ignored. If you are top 5 on a ladder somewhere, go for it, but to apply it as a principle to general gameplay is ridiculous. Anyway, I'm moving this to strategy where is belongs. Again, not really saying he wins 100% of games, in the numbers game it might be an advantage at the moment. No one knows, despite made up statistics. No ones saying this should be a principle of anything. I just dont understand the extremes, on either side. Actually i havent seen any extremes on the side of the no scout. Mostly people arguing from what is evident. That it works for him. Would he be better of scouting? Who cares? Hes pretty much destroying as is. Games like this isnt about optimal play, its about winning, as have been stated many times before. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:04 SmoKim wrote: Sjow just destroyed White-Ra with his late scout style ez-peacy. Kid got talent no matter what people think No one is arguing against that. They're saying he would be even better if he scouted. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:49 Gigaudas wrote: Probably because he doesn't have to change his BO against what he scouts often enough for the economic edge to be worth it. Plus, having an extra SCV on mining when you get hit by cheese (when still low on SCVs) is a huge deal. And it obviously gives a slight edge when both players are playing standard. Are you serious? Count the occurrences of the name "SjoW" here: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues#tblt-1928-1-0-DESC Don't miss page 2! EDIT: Even better, sort by name and realize that he's the one player in the world with the most tournament wins when there's money on the line. I clicked on that link and got depressed by all the blue I saw... If I played terran I wouldn't scout either. I'd just turtle all game. Not much can threaten a turtled terran. Then when we are both maxed, I would start spamming PF's and turrets on the map. | ||
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Quecks
Sweden6 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:56 Logo wrote: It's not that much of a handicap really. Unless I'm doing the math wrong... if you had a 51% chance (+1% because you didn't scout) to win 9/10 and a 30% chance to win 1/10 (-20% chance because you did worker scout) then your overall win rate would be 48.9%. If it was an ~10% or less disadvantage then his overall win rate would be equal to or greater than 50%. Of course in reality if it's a 20% weakness then opponents knowing his trends can exploit that so it happens more often than 1/10, but that's a different point all together. I dont know where he got the statistics from, but they sounded very official, so you better note that he said 20+ percent. So you have to do some sort of mathmatisism on that variable aswell brah. User was banned for this post. | ||
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ksn
Italy34 Posts
On December 15 2010 07:28 Chill wrote: In 9 games out of 10 he will have a 1% advantage, and in 1 game he will have a 20+% disadvantage. Adjust the numbers how you will but it still doesn't make sense. still, 9/10 games he has an advantage | ||
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cArn-
Korea (South)824 Posts
On December 15 2010 05:06 avilo wrote: How the hell is scouting a "stylistic choice?" Scouting is a core component of being good. It has nothing to do with "style." How are people even trying to defend bad play? This is crazy. Yeah and guess what, even with this bad play he has already still won more relevant tournaments that you will ever win, at lest you can chitchat on forums and try to look smart to make you feel bit better about it. Bad play would be no scouting at all, scouting later doesn't mean he's not doing it, the only thing I find questionnable is not scouting around and in the base for proxies at least, and you can still hold these kind of things without scouting it anyway. | ||
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Severus_
759 Posts
 )EDIT: and i think SjoW is no where near the Koreans or the other top terrans. | ||
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dizzy101
Netherlands2066 Posts
The pro-early scouters have not really addressed--in any careful way--Sjow's argument that i) discovering cheese doesn't really affect his particular 1-1-1 build, ii) opponents' build orders can be discovered by sending marines&hellions across the map. | ||
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ironside
51 Posts
Just look at his contribution to this thread, nothing but flaming and retarded hyperbole. This was actually a decent discussion before he arrived with all his bullshit. Either he is a troll (maybe he wants the publicity?), or he is just a sad little man with some real e-peen delusions. User was banned for this post. | ||
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Mooncat
Germany1228 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:04 SmoKim wrote: Sjow just destroyed White-Ra with his late scout style ez-peacy. Kid got talent no matter what people think Ya, and two games later Adelscott wiped the floor with him and before that he lost pretty badly to Darkforce. So...? What are you getting at? No one's denying that Sjow is a good player, we're saying that not SCV scouting in almost every game is not a very good idea. | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
On December 15 2010 08:35 ironside wrote: Its funny how incontrol thinks his contribution to tl is so valuable and everyone who isn't pro is an idiot and shouldn't post. Just look at his contribution to this thread, nothing but flaming and retarded hyperbole. This was actually a decent discussion before he arrived with all his bullshit. Either he is a troll (maybe he wants the publicity?), or he is just a sad little man with some real e-peen delusions. why flame a well known, respected, heavily contributing community member? I personally love seeing the rare threads like this where you have top players (Sjow, Inc, Merz, etc) and top forum veterans (chill, mani, Inc again, etc) all having a discussion. | ||
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longdivision
United States170 Posts
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m0ck
4194 Posts
A thread like this is a great opportunity to question fundamental assumptions like "8-9-10-11-12 probe = scout". Dismissing it off-hand just shows a lack of imagination and premature confidence in how the game is supposed to play out. It's still early days It would be interesting to hear the opinion of the early posters like nazgul and incontrol in light of the explanations of sjow and merz. Interesting! | ||
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Cocacooh
Norway1510 Posts
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thurst0n
United States611 Posts
On December 14 2010 21:36 scion wrote: I don't see why you would ever forgo early scouting. You literally don't lose anything by doing it and the potential information you could gather are amazing. (early double gas, 2 rax before orbital, 2gate, proxy anything, cannon rush..) You also can get control of xel'naga watch tower or leave your worker in front of their base to see when they are moving out with what composition. There is absolutely no reason not to scout. ever. I"m not expert, but this pretty much sums it up for me.. i suck at scouting unfortunately and my macro could use some work.. i guess that's why I'm here.. | ||
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gogogadgetflow
United States2583 Posts
It would be interesting to hear the opinion of the early posters like nazgul and incontrol in light of the explanations of sjow and merz. Interesting! I am pretty confident that incontrol is not prepared to concede even the most minor points to Sjow (I'd love to be proven wrong). It seems his pre-concieved notion of the matter will not budge an inch (unless just possibly at some point down the road he realizes there are situations he should leave his probes on the mineral line). It is just a matter of his personality. Frankly I'm glad he left the thread when he did before making even more out of place elitist posts. | ||
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