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On December 15 2010 08:05 30to1 wrote:
the psystarcraft game is a pretty good example.
the key problem is the expense/income - the point where the build is weakest is between this point as you're still in the red in terms of resources. its the core problem with the build.
EDIT: sorry, not trying to piss on the build or anything - my response was directed at the guy asking how to beat it three posts up. the answer is a strong push between 7 and 9 minutes.
As far as I can tell that's the only build which has had success and one I haven't run into on the ladders. The problem is it only works if zerg knows terran is specifically going mass oc as opposed to a two rax marine/scv all in, which is what it appears like on the surface. I would say there's a window of vulnerability, but it tends to be made up by the defender's advantage.
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I don't want to pee in Griffin's thread. But if you really look at the build and really think about - its pretty clear why the timing window is there - IMO - its more of a meta build - which is why it will win most when people are unfamiliar with it - but if it starts to become more prominent then people will become familiar with its weaknesses. Standard zerg TvZ does not generally include a timing push at 8 minutes - so it will work really well.
Anyway - its a great build and I wish you guys luck with it. But keep in mind that timing window is there
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On December 15 2010 08:20 30to1 wrote:
I don't want to pee in Griffin's thread. But if you really look at the build and really think about - its pretty clear why the timing window is there - IMO - its more of a meta build - which is why it will win most when people are unfamiliar with it - but if it starts to become more prominent then people will become familiar with its weaknesses. Standard zerg TvZ does not generally include a timing push at 8 minutes - so it will work really well.
Anyway - its a great build and I wish you guys luck with it. But keep in mind that timing window is there
What I'd prefer is if iEchoic and Psy did 30 games with both of those basic builds(with tweaks as necessary ofcourse) and see what the outcome is so we can see from a statistical point of view which it tends to favor(compared with their normal win ratios against each other as a null hypthesis).
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I would honestly say that psy's build is close to a hard counter to griffins. The results of that test would not be remotely favorable. Thankfully you won't see that build used very often!
But it uses the hard unit counter for the marine heavy early force the build uses as well as hitting during that timing (which is why psy's game makes griffin's build look sort of laughable).
But the glaring hole is that timing (I'm really surprised that griffin didn't seem aware of it in earlier post). You can tweek this build so that it doesn't suffer from that timing weakness, but it won't really look anything like the original build when you're done with it.
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For all this "timing window" talk, I don't think you quite understand how timings work.
Firstly, you can't get infestors out in the 7-9 timing window unless you do 1-base play. 2-base play delays this way too much. So saying "its pretty-close" is laughable because 2-base and 1-base zerg are NOTHING alike. This point is of huge importance because the Zerg's decision to do 1-base play comes BEFORE Terran's decision to 4OC.
Secondly, this build doesn't COMMIT to 4OC until the 27 supply mark (around 5-6 minutes).
A real "timing window" hole would be a decision a zerg makes AFTER the decision by the Terran to 4OC. 4OC is generally centered against 14/15-hatch play, which accounts for like 90% of high level TvZ.
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On December 15 2010 08:38 30to1 wrote:
I would honestly say that psy's build is close to a hard counter to griffins. The results of that test would not be remotely favorable. Thankfully you won't see that build used very often!
But it uses the hard unit counter for the marine heavy early force the build uses as well as hitting during that timing (which is why psy's game makes griffin's build look sort of laughable).
But the glaring hole is that timing (I'm really surprised that griffin didn't seem aware of it in earlier post). You can tweek this build so that it doesn't suffer from that timing weakness, but it won't really look anything like the original build when you're done with it.
There was a good bit of luck which PsY had, including sneaking the one group of infestors to the main. Its why you can't base an entire build or counter build on a single game because it could be a statistical outlier. Again, why I feel like a 30 game test would allow both to seek out a way to defeat the other, while sticking to the mass OC vs infestor rush. But as Griffith has mentioned in the past, most zerg quasi all in attacks within the timing window can be defended on one base with 4 oc. The way I approach it is if zerg is going fast hatch, go ahead and quickly grab your expo; if they go one base, stay within the one base with bunkers until all 4 oc and 3 extra rax are up before securing expo. If zerg manages to break the wall, go ahead and pull as many scvs as necessary as you should have your mules kicking in at that point and one base with 4 mules is more than competitive income wise against a 1 base zerg. The maps with potential vulnerabilities are maps with back door rocks since they can nullify the defender's advantage.
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griffin, i'm not arguing that your build sucks because psy's happens to beat it. psy's build isn't good, it just...happens to beat yours. No big deal. You aren't going to see psy's build cuz ... its an awful build.
All I'm saying is that if someone is having trouble beating this - they'll get the best bang for the buck trying a timing push at 7-9 minutes - because thats the period when your build is at its absolute weakest...you know this, so why argue?
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On December 15 2010 08:51 30to1 wrote:
griffin, i'm not arguing that your build sucks because psy's happens to beat it. psy's build isn't good, it just...happens to beat yours. No big deal. You aren't going to see psy's build cuz ... its an awful build.
All I'm saying is that if someone is having trouble beating this - they'll get the best bang for the buck trying a timing push at 7-9 minutes - because thats the period when your build is at its absolute weakest...you know this, so why argue?
I think its your phrasing, "glaring hole" implies that anyone can defeat the build if they exploit that hole. But in my experience, and from Griffith's replays, its a vulnerability but not something which is a guaranteed win for zerg even if exploited.
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30to1,
You keep saying there's a "really potent window" (pg24), meaning there's a period of "strong" weakness during this window. We're trying to figure out what exactly that "strong weakness" is.
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On December 15 2010 08:57 Griffith` wrote:
You keep saying there's a "really potent window" (pg24), meaning there's a period of "strong" weakness during this window. We're trying to figure out what exactly that "strong weakness" is.
your build is an econ build. it relies on how income works to either live or die.
you're investing in CC's early so you can really gain a bit later - your build hits its stride around 10 or 11 minutes when all the income is streaming in. At around 9 minutes it's shakey but starting to stabilize as the income from your 4th oc is starting to put you in the black.
the big problem is that when you're building your 4th oc but that oc hasn't paid for itself yet. Your army will be considerably smaller than your opponents (because you have minerals tied up in ocs that havent finished paying for themselves yet).
Sorry if it sounds harsh or I used the wrong words - but I was pretty specific about the window (7-9 minutes), that period after the 4th OC has been fully committed to, but before it's fully repaid for itself.
Think about it as if it were not an OC, but instead a third expansion. If your opponent doesn't attack before the expo starts to pay for itself, then you're gonna be in great shape when the expo starts to kick in, but before that - there is a window of time when you're weakest. The 4OC build is not as extreme as taking a third expo in terms of vulnerability, but similar economics are at play.
The big advantage this build has - is a meta game advantage in that zergs really aren't used to attacking a terran player at 8 minutes (especially after 2 rax early aggro). This alone will win you a lot of games, but the weakness during that period (7-9 minutes) is the reason I don't think you're going to see this build at the pro level a month from now. Pro players don't tend to play as robotically as your average ladder player - and they often have a good gut understanding of how vulnerable stuff is. If a pro player sees this build a few times and it gives them trouble - you better believe they'll start responding with an attack during that window.
It's not an opinion - its just the economics of your economic build.
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So, try to push at 7 to 9 minutes? Gah, not many of my builds have that much early/mid aggression. And yeah, the 7RR would be easily stopped if he threw up a bunker or put heftier buildings in his wall. To have enough units to do damage at 7-9 minutes seems leaning towards an all-in build to have enough impact and follow thru. I guess I can macro up if I do enough damage.
I've got to watch the replay to see how many units he has between 7 and 9 minutes, because I don't know how glaring that hole is, and with defenders' advantage of the wall, ranged units, and bunkers, it seems like it would be tough to break in.
What unit mix can Zerg come up with at that time frame to break through and do enough damage? Banelings followed by zerglings and more banelings? He's gotta have quite a few marines/marauders behind the wall. I saw Psy's vid, and my infestor micro is so horribad that I won't even attempt it.
I hope the Zerg masterminds can come up with an easier meta counter to this. Meantime, I'll just practice becoming better than my frenemy.
Anyway, nice strat OP. I'm having a tough time against it. =P
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On December 15 2010 09:20 sfvenn wrote:
So, try to push at 7 to 9 minutes? Gah, not many of my builds have that much early/mid aggression.
Just to say something positive about the build - THIS is why its such a good build. Most zerg players are in the same boat!
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I abandoned this build because strong zerg (2400+) just go 2base infestors and banelings and decimate even endless bio. I am guessing that it might have a chance with pure marine/tank/medivac and decent marine splitting micro. (cut marauders because you need the gas to make both tanks and medivacs)
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On December 15 2010 09:20 sfvenn wrote:
So, try to push at 7 to 9 minutes? Gah, not many of my builds have that much early/mid aggression. And yeah, the 7RR would be easily stopped if he threw up a bunker or put heftier buildings in his wall. To have enough units to do damage at 7-9 minutes seems leaning towards an all-in build to have enough impact and follow thru. I guess I can macro up if I do enough damage.
I've got to watch the replay to see how many units he has between 7 and 9 minutes, because I don't know how glaring that hole is, and with defenders' advantage of the wall, ranged units, and bunkers, it seems like it would be tough to break in.
What unit mix can Zerg come up with at that time frame to break through and do enough damage? Banelings followed by zerglings and more banelings? He's gotta have quite a few marines/marauders behind the wall. I saw Psy's vid, and my infestor micro is so horribad that I won't even attempt it.
I hope the Zerg masterminds can come up with an easier meta counter to this. Meantime, I'll just practice becoming better than my frenemy.
Anyway, nice strat OP. I'm having a tough time against it. =P
I personally don't recommend a baneling bust as it requires you to lose most of your units to break down a solid wall, and they can pull off scvs to assist taking out the remaining zerglings, while keeping a strong econ with mules and make a ton of scvs to replace the workers. Likewise they can quickly restart the wall where it was broken down before you can keep up the attack. To the other end, I feel an econ baneling bust takes too long and loses the window of vulnerability, but I don't recall the timings for that offhand. I personally find rr the hardest to hold against.
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On December 15 2010 09:28 statikg wrote:
I abandoned this build because strong zerg (2400+) just go 2base infestors and banelings and decimate even endless bio. I am guessing that it might have a chance with pure marine/tank/medivac and decent marine splitting micro. (cut marauders because you need the gas to make both tanks and medivacs)
If you still have them, please post some replays, I'd be curious about seeing them.
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On December 15 2010 09:29 TheRealDJ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 09:20 sfvenn wrote:
So, try to push at 7 to 9 minutes? Gah, not many of my builds have that much early/mid aggression. And yeah, the 7RR would be easily stopped if he threw up a bunker or put heftier buildings in his wall. To have enough units to do damage at 7-9 minutes seems leaning towards an all-in build to have enough impact and follow thru. I guess I can macro up if I do enough damage.
I've got to watch the replay to see how many units he has between 7 and 9 minutes, because I don't know how glaring that hole is, and with defenders' advantage of the wall, ranged units, and bunkers, it seems like it would be tough to break in.
What unit mix can Zerg come up with at that time frame to break through and do enough damage? Banelings followed by zerglings and more banelings? He's gotta have quite a few marines/marauders behind the wall. I saw Psy's vid, and my infestor micro is so horribad that I won't even attempt it.
I hope the Zerg masterminds can come up with an easier meta counter to this. Meantime, I'll just practice becoming better than my frenemy.
Anyway, nice strat OP. I'm having a tough time against it. =P I personally don't recommend a baneling bust as it requires you to lose most of your units to break down a solid wall, and they can pull off scvs to assist taking out the remaining zerglings, while keeping a strong econ with mules and make a ton of scvs to replace the workers. Likewise they can quickly restart the wall where it was broken down before you can keep up the attack. To the other end, I feel an econ baneling bust takes too long and loses the window of vulnerability, but I don't recall the timings for that offhand. I personally find rr the hardest to hold against.
Thanks for the response. I suspected as much. AAAND... now my frenemy wants me to roach rush him so he can solidify that part of the weakness in the build, which is really just a standard build worry that is pretty easily overcome. 
Infester baneling, eh? Well, I did tell myself I needed to practice my infestor micro more. I'll try it thanks! A replay would be nice to see, too.
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Has anyone tried to swing this into mass 2 Base Thor Hellion with marines in bunkers to really quick 4 gas into some sort of massive push at about 15 minutes? I think that it would be a good intro to it since Thor/Hellion/marine is by no means ineffective especially when you get the insane amount of blue flame hellions running around everywhere. I remember doing 4 Fact way back after TLO did this in GSL1 and getting mineral locked due to Reactor Facts taking 400 min/min each and Thor Production sucking up 300 min/min each for a total of 1400 min/min. I think you could swing this into getting even more marine/hellion support for the Thors.
EDIT:
With that much crap in front of your Thors, you should be pretty resistant to Neural Parasite due to the need to fungal everything first and the some portion of the 20-30 Hellions potentially taking out all the infestors.
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On December 15 2010 09:28 statikg wrote:
I abandoned this build because strong zerg (2400+) just go 2base infestors and banelings and decimate even endless bio. I am guessing that it might have a chance with pure marine/tank/medivac and decent marine splitting micro. (cut marauders because you need the gas to make both tanks and medivacs)
I've faced similar problems as well, one trick I have been doing is to split the marines at your nat as soon as possible (ie. long before the attack even comes) then pressing hold. I tend to disperse them completely so a baneling/infestor will catch 2 or 3 marines at the MOST.
PS. Replays pretty please :D
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On December 15 2010 08:57 Griffith` wrote:
30to1,
You keep saying there's a "really potent window" (pg24), meaning there's a period of "strong" weakness during this window. We're trying to figure out what exactly that "strong weakness" is.
I've had to deal with this build on ladder a lot lately, and there definitely is a "weak" point before before terran gets 12+ rax or whatever. I generally have a kyrix style zvt so ling/bling really does put a damper on it when scouted early enough.
so yeah, griffith', your build is fine and dandy, its not like zerg can easily stop it at the "weak" timing either, but you need to understand that, and not be so defensive about your build because it makes you sound real ignorant!
edit: Sorry about sounding like a jerk, I have simply read only a few of your posts on the subject, so if I misjudged I'm terribly sorry! You can reply to me in a mean way if that makes you feel better 
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So i have been using this on ladder. Its definitely working for me, even in the lower leagues cause its just not heavy on the micro. What i was finding was that it was super weak against baneling bust. I have modified it, 3 racks at the ramp then CC at 22 and CC at 26 while pumping rines. Early pressure is still great but, seriously, i was just getting busted ALL the time and this has so far stopped it.
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EPT
