EPT[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 26
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
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30to1
105 Posts
On December 15 2010 11:39 QuesterX wrote: So i have been using this on ladder. Its definitely working for me, even in the lower leagues cause its just not heavy on the micro. What i was finding was that it was super weak against baneling bust. I have modified it, 3 racks at the ramp then CC at 22 and CC at 26 while pumping rines. Early pressure is still great but, seriously, i was just getting busted ALL the time and this has so far stopped it. yeah i'm guessing those busts tended to happen somewhere between 7 and 9 minutes most of the time - or at least most of the time when you ended up losing. I don't think its so much the banelings itself - its that there was some strong push using a bunch of units that zerg could easily put together at around that time. Infestor will do it, baneling. It helps if the units are really good at killing marines, but honestly I think that a solid roach/hydra push could probably be strong also (not sure on the timings there though). The point isn't so much the units, as the timing. Griffin, considering you've been using this build for almost a month now - were you really not aware that this build had that weakness? | ||
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~GhoSt
145 Posts
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Griffith`
714 Posts
"were you really not aware that this build had that weakness?" <-- wtf are you talking about? No offense but you're a platinum level protoss player, as you said yourself. I don't know why you're going off about its "weaknesses" of a TvZ build when I've spent at least a month defending against 2k+ zerg players regarding specific said weaknesses of eco-bling/sling/infestor. I mentioned in OP that I'm MORE than happy to play against zergs who wanna try eco baneling/sling. | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try.... | ||
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Dethant
United States16 Posts
I think it negates some of the vulnerability since marauders are quite powerfull for both offense and defense, and if your doing a 3 rax type of build I think it just adds alittle later-game security since you can have alot of mules. I think in most games i actualy get an extra OC, just because the mules are so powerfull, and even that extra oc can really make a big impact. however, depending on when i build the OC and depending on how well i scouted, ive been killed numerous times due to roach busts, banelings, or aggressive 4gates i dont think ive ever done this agaisnt T though | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On December 15 2010 12:05 30to1 wrote: you're right griffin, sorry - your build is perfect. there is really no weakness. it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try.... OK you're just pulling shit out of your ass and using strawman arguments. "Pros are all wrong?" Since when did pros even become part of this argument? You're putting words into my mouth. How can pros be "wrong" when the majority of them haven't even commented on it or tried it out? The ones who have, eg. vVvNGry have had amazing successes with it. How come you completely discredit that? Seriously man I think you're feeling way overprotective of your "OC Farming" idea. You're just borderline trolling at this point. | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
Just wait a month and check out where the build is - if its being used all over the place then great, i'm wrong. If it's not, then maybe you should look at it and ask yourself why. Perhaps its because there is a timing window between 7 and 9 minutes where its very vulnerable and players once familiar with it - can use that window for a "build order win". Maybe in the future someone will have some success with a 3OC variation or something else, perhaps, but thats because they'll have figured out some way to plug that gap. Sorry you seem to be taking this so personally, I'm just sharing my thoughts on your build. | ||
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NGry
United States74 Posts
On December 15 2010 12:05 30to1 wrote: you're right griffin, sorry - your build is perfect. there is really no weakness. it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try.... U can say that with any build. EVERY BUILD has a weakness, its what the player does to minimize the weakness that makes it good. This is also the reason WHY some builds fail for certain players and work for others. "Does the build fit your playstyle" is what I tell people when they ask me, "Will this build roflstomp and rape everyone?" Yes this build has a GLARING weakness at the 7-9 minute mark, the way to account and minimize this weakness is with efficient scouting and knowledge of what the zerg player is planning to do. As many of u have mentioned, a kyrix style build could(will) probably decimate this. From my practices with this build, it is obviously the counter to the build, but that doesn't mean the build is bad. Again I go back to the part of "efficient scouting" a good player will see the attack coming and prepare accordingly(in this scenario, I would cut the 4th OC and throw up extra bunkers, grab the 4th OC later). | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
"potent timing window" between 7-9 minutes. You use either esoteric examples of 1base infestor play, or just echo another person's "2 base bling / sling kyrix eco-bust". Both of which are fairly weak methods of beating 4OC. I've defended at least over 50-60 eco baneling busts in the past few weeks. Like NGry said, scouting will let your prepare, this is NOT a blind build. 2-3 Bunkers will hold off 90% - 95% of all baneling busts. The scouting time window for zerg is quite tight as well. Yes, on some maps like close position metalopolis, lost temple, or even steppes of war, 4OC would be weak because of the rush distance making bling/sling a bit more dangerous. I'm not taking this personally. Its actually quite helpful as it brings it a lot more insights from other players. | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
On December 15 2010 12:14 NGry wrote: U can say that with any build. EVERY BUILD has a weakness, its what the player does to minimize the weakness that makes it good. This is also the reason WHY some builds fail for certain players and work for others. "Does the build fit your playstyle" is what I tell people when they ask me, "Will this build roflstomp and rape everyone?" Yes this build has a GLARING weakness at the 7-9 minute mark, the way to account and minimize this weakness is with efficient scouting and knowledge of what the zerg player is planning to do. As many of u have mentioned, a kyrix style build could(will) probably decimate this. From my practices with this build, it is obviously the counter to the build, but that doesn't mean the build is bad. Again I go back to the part of "efficient scouting" a good player will see the attack coming and prepare accordingly(in this scenario, I would cut the 4th OC and throw up extra bunkers, grab the 4th OC later). To be fair, this is my point. To follow the thread here - someone posted a question "i'm having trouble beating this build" - I posted a response, "there is a timing hole between 7-9 minutes you can abuse", griffin responded by saying, "no there isn't"...etc. I'm not saying this build is awful, I'm pretty fond of the idea of building more than 1 OC really. I'm just saying that I don't think this build -as written- has legs in the long run because of the 7-9 minute weakness. I also think that weakness is the primary reason that so many people stopped using it - or multi OC variations which I think is a shame. The "one extra OC for every 2 base" rule of thumb is really much better long run. It's a little bit more mature of a use. | ||
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Communism
United States176 Posts
I dont have any replays and I havent done any testing yet, but just off the people who use this builds experience, do you think that a push of 12 +1/+1 banelings and 24 +1/+1 speedlings at around 7:30 - 7:45 would be sufficient to take it down, even if its scouted? | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
Namely, Terran should to scan the zerg base at 5:55 right before laying down the 4th OC and check the following things: 1. Is it a close-rush distance map? (Steppes of War, close distance metalopolis, close distance lost temple) 2. Is the drone count low? 3. Is there no lair lech? 4. Is there at least double gas? If the answer is a yes to all of the above, then build up two bunkers and throw up two raxes ASAP at your natural. I think the main problem we've had with differing results for eco baneling busts is the rush distance. I've typically tested on Xel'naga caverns (wide open nat, but fairly far rush distances) against eco-baneling bust. Edit: We're doing some more tests in regards to walling off the ramp with OCs (no raxes) | ||
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30to1
105 Posts
Just tone down the ad hominem shit. Obviously, I raised a pretty valid point about the timing window where this build is weakest. Use that feedback productively instead of just questioning my credentials. Anyway, good luck with the build. In all sincerity I hope I'm wrong and the idea rocks the next GSL. | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On December 15 2010 12:06 Dethant wrote: Even though ive never really done this buil exactly, i have done a type of build where for every 2 expansions I build one extra OC. I think it negates some of the vulnerability since marauders are quite powerfull for both offense and defense, and if your doing a 3 rax type of build I think it just adds alittle later-game security since you can have alot of mules. I think in most games i actualy get an extra OC, just because the mules are so powerfull, and even that extra oc can really make a big impact. however, depending on when i build the OC and depending on how well i scouted, ive been killed numerous times due to roach busts, banelings, or aggressive 4gates i dont think ive ever done this agaisnt T though My recommendation against T is to get fast tanks, and a bunker for your marines, then go for the OCs(pulling scvs off gas till you only support one tank at a time), you should have a strong enough advantage to defend the inevitable push. But once you throw down your OCs I would recommend getting a turret or two at each base against banshee since that seems like the next logical step that most terran opponents take(that or a drop, which you can defend by repositioning a tank or two). Suprisingly, a MM focused army with fast replenishment can do extremely well vs a tank centric army if you have stim and cc. | ||
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Dethant
United States16 Posts
haha and yeah, if you have good micro and good positioning mauraders can wreck tanks. usualy for me though TvT ends up in a mass tank/viking race of epic 45 minut game proportions, lol. | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On December 15 2010 13:39 Dethant wrote: Yeah, tanks are essential in TvT, although they are quite gas heavy :/ haha and yeah, if you have good micro and good positioning mauraders can wreck tanks. usualy for me though TvT ends up in a mass tank/viking race of epic 45 minut game proportions, lol. Well the interesting thing is having mass marine is viable because of the tank nerf vs light. Tanks needing two hits to take out marines mean you can rush in with a mm army and have them survive while sniping the tanks while your own tanks can take out their remaining army while being constantly reinforced. Without the mineral income advantage, you need to be very efficient, leading to the viking/tank combo, but now, you can indeed push tank positions with your mm ball with tanks to clean up. At that point you should be able to outproduce them not allowing them to get a critical number of tanks. | ||
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EngrMoK
Philippines15 Posts
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johanngrunt
Hong Kong1555 Posts
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nalgene
Canada2153 Posts
On December 15 2010 15:50 johanngrunt wrote: The real strength of this strategy is in team games =) Are you pooling someone after your 4th orbital in 4v4s? | ||
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