EPT[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 28
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
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Conrose
437 Posts
Middle Positions on Arakan Citadel. Middle Positions on Dig Site is a bit risky, but the rewards may be worth the risk if you can build your first OC from the safety of an allied base and take an island expansion early. The Biolab, any position. Easy to wall off very early to defend yourself from cheese and any attempt to 3v1 one of you partners will usually result in the early pressure suffering from being surrounded from both sides of the choke. You'll want to get out a couple dozen marines before trying to expand. Ulaan Deeps if you spawn in one of the two bases that share an entrance. The far spawn is simply too risky to rely much on your partners to aid in defense. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
Planetary fortress are so fucking awesome for turtling to 5 bases that I bet Flash would be abusing the hell out of it in every single macro game straight up if he came to SC2. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 19 2010 13:02 Griffith` wrote: I've come to the conclusion that it is nearly always more preferable to just take your third by just building planetary fortress. 550 minerals is literally 15 seconds of mining time - it makes absolutely no sense to use an OC as the time its spent floating would equal a mule. Planetary fortress are so fucking awesome for turtling to 5 bases that I bet Flash would be abusing the hell out of it in every single macro game straight up if he came to SC2. Well, it certainly would secure a high risk expansion pretty well with your marines pushing all the time when you set up a network of turrets around it. | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/117969-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
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tsuxiit
1305 Posts
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heyyouyesyou
United States323 Posts
On December 19 2010 15:53 tsuxiit wrote: This is an incredibly frustrating build to play against if it goes unscouted; terran can turtle and then suddenly produce from 12 rax off 2 base. It's retarded and as risky as any other cheese, but I honestly think this will cause Blizzard to put mules on some sort of cooldown. Its not retarded but while it is risky this is still a valid strategy i would employ in a Bo3 or Bo5. Mules getting a nerf is unlikely as its the main macro mechanic that would allow terrans to compete in the late game. I actually think terran late game suffers from making your 3-4 base Planetary Fortresses which while giving us an extra base thats secured denies us a mule we would need to compete with protoss and zerg. Sure alot of players have just been using it as a chance to 12rax allin without using scvs but good players will try to add tanks or mediavcs to their unit composition and try to secure a 3rd. If zergs want to stop this they will have to learn to scout better. Yes i know marines can prevent a slow overlord from scouting but im pretty sure you can sneak a changeling into the base while an overseer checks the another part of the terrans base. Learn to adapt butt hurt zergs and learn to play. Patches wont save you they will only change the way we pwn you. | ||
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Rflcrx
503 Posts
On December 19 2010 18:51 heyyouyesyou wrote: If zergs want to stop this they will have to learn to scout better. Yes i know marines can prevent a slow overlord from scouting but im pretty sure you can sneak a changeling into the base while an overseer checks the another part of the terrans base. This tactic indeed works up to high bronce league, thanks for the advise. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12816 Posts
On December 21 2010 17:36 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I actually faced this for the first time at a tournament this past weekend. I never even heard of this build. I lost the first time he did this build and felt so stupid because I felt so smart picking off scvs. But.. that does nothing since Mules will just laugh at that. I just did a huge baneling bust in the 3rd game and won easily because of that. hahhaha yeah, show those bastards what's up! | ||
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
Have to say, very impressed; Few things- The timing on that first 5 marine push is so damn nice vs FE zerg. I love it. Q: On maps like LT with double island, profitable to just fly to the islands? missile turrets is cheep. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 21 2010 17:36 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I actually faced this for the first time at a tournament this past weekend. I never even heard of this build. I lost the first time he did this build and felt so stupid because I felt so smart picking off scvs. But.. that does nothing since Mules will just laugh at that. I just did a huge baneling bust in the 3rd game and won easily because of that. MULE #1: Ew... I just landed in something. MULE #2: Used to be 12 SCVs and a few banelings. MULE #3: Hehe, I saw it going down as I was landing. Blood and acid everywhere. MULE #2: Where's #4 anyways? MULE #1: I think the commander is cleaning up tumors right now. | ||
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Sifu
Denmark8 Posts
Lately, however, I have ran into some problems against really good zergs. First they get fast ling speed so my 2 rax pressure in the beginning do almost no dmg, other then forcing them to make a bunch of lings. After that they just denies my expo with a big group of lings that is wayy to many for my 2-rax marine group to handle. I simply cant get my bunkers up at my expo! should i just make a bunker at my natural right as I move out with my first 3-4 marine push? replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118835-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant this is about 2400+ diamond, and even though I make some mistakes my opponent do aswell (he was slightly favored though). could u pls point out what i did so terrible wrong, because I honestly think I got my ass whippet! He had alot of drones so it wasn't allin from his site. He teched to muta and even got banelings, while producing enough slings to keep me from getting my natural :S ty in advance  Sifu | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
Your first 5 marines should arrive at zerg's expo way before speedling upgrade is finished. There's no point to keep on sending marines to their death once you see speedling up - rather just keep them at your nat/main to help you secure your expo. As for securing your natural, it is critical that you simcity properly. IE. if they are camping lings at your nat, begin by building a bunker directly below your ramp. (Lings can't attack the bunker without being hit by the marines above). then proceed to add/or lift-move two more raxes next the bunker to begin your wall-off. Proper sim-city techniques take countless tries to master, and is an integral part of this build. Simcity is much harder on certain maps than others (xelnaga and metalopolis being two 'hard' maps for proper simcity, but it is completely doable). EDIT: if you are going to get baneling busted, COMPLETELY spread your marines like a minefield WAY before hand. By Completely I mean spread out into single units. Doing so will actually make banelings not even remotely cost-effective against marines. Obviously such a spread is impossible if you are going on the offensive, but it is completely doable when you are on the defensive. A spread out 50 marine army is just retarded and nearly impossible bust. | ||
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TheRealDJ
United States124 Posts
On December 21 2010 21:02 Sifu wrote: first of all, ty Griffeth for a really cool build. It have won me many games vs zerg so far, and I just love the feeling of throwing wave after wave of bio after the zerg. Lately, however, I have ran into some problems against really good zergs. First they get fast ling speed so my 2 rax pressure in the beginning almost do no dmg, other then forcing them to make a bunch of lings. After that they just denies my expo with a big group of lings that is wayy to many for my 2-rax marine group to handle. I simply cant get my bunkers up at my expo! should i just make a bunker at my natural right as I move out with my first 3-4 marine push? replay: http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/118835-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant this is about 2400+ diamond, and even though I make some mistakes my opponent do aswell (he was slightly favored though). could u pls point out what i did so terrible wrong, because I honestly think I got my ass whippet! He had alot of drones so it wasn't allin from his site. He teched to muta and even got banelings, while producing enough slings to keep me from getting my natural :S ty in advance Sifu Still at work, but as someone who tries to exclusively use this build against all matchups, and with Griffith unavailable, I'll check it out tonight.Griffith's advice is pretty solid though. If by chance you're not used to marine stutter step for the two rax pressure, I recommend downloading QXC's practice map for that, which can be found in these forum, as it helps maximize the damage you can do in the beginning. Edit: Ok just watched it. The primary issue you have is the order in which you're spending your money. You spend money on I believe 4 bunkers and an engineering bay before you start spending on any more barracks. After you start building your final cc, focus all your excess minerals(not being used on scvs or marines) on improving your production capacity. You could've easily had 3 extra barracks by the time the opponent started putting pressure on, especially if you were able to salvage that first bunker lost. That's the big picture thing I think you could improve. The small stuff include messing up with the initial marine production for the pressure. I personally make my depot by my gas, then build the two rax near the ramp. It gets me a few extra minerals for a bit of a faster rax production. Then you spent alot of time moving them around before starting marine production, giving the opponent time to set up his defense. Don't worry if you screw up and don't have an ultra tight seal at first, you can change it around later. Time is of the essence when you're trying to kill his natural. On this map(delta quadrant) I personally don't recommend expanding to the exposed natural. After you send out your first 5 marines, you send any newly produced marines to take out the rocks. It may take a while, but you don't need to spend more minerals on bunkers protecting the exposed natural, letting you set up your extra barracks. And even if you can't expand initially, such as on a map like metalopolis with an open natural, you can still one base harder than a normal terran since mules don't care about saturation. Play it safe in that situation and get your production facilities up first before taking the natural where you don't have the high ground advantage. | ||
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Gooey
United States944 Posts
I did, however, find that the easiest way to go about beating this strat as zerg is a strait up baneling bust. At first, the zerg lost to it on Lost Temple, with a baneling bust that broke in perfect, and 7-8 zerglings ran in and got free reign over some scvs. I was watching his monitor and his reaction to seeing 4 orbital commands waiting for him was "wtf?!". The scv's were replenished within a few seconds. The next map terran tried it on, shakuras, he saw the exact same opening, and went for a massive baneling bust. Terran had the same response to it with a heavy wall off, but was greeted by twice the amount of banelings and lots of lings. EDIT: ha changsta was actually the zerg that beat it, guess he already posted here about it | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
On December 22 2010 15:45 Gooey wrote: I had a terran use this against me as protoss last weekend at a LAN tourney, and I was taken by surprise at how much bio he was throwing at me. It just didn't feel like a normal terran push with the amount of bio reinforcements that were coming in afterwards. I did, however, find that the easiest way to go about beating this strat as zerg is a strait up baneling bust. At first, the zerg lost to it on Lost Temple, with a baneling bust that broke in perfect, and 7-8 zerglings ran in and got free reign over some scvs. I was watching his monitor and his reaction to seeing 4 orbital commands waiting for him was "wtf?!". The scv's were replenished within a few seconds. The next map terran tried it on, shakuras, he saw the exact same opening, and went for a massive baneling bust. Terran had the same response to it with a heavy wall off, but was greeted by twice the amount of banelings and lots of lings. EDIT: ha changsta was actually the zerg that beat it, guess he already posted here about it lol yea. Though the game on LT, he did a normal MM build and just moved out with too many small forces that got surrounded by just speedlings that I later transition into mutas. The game on Jungle Basin was the game that surprised me with the 4OC. I made a huge mistake of after busting down the wall, redroning thinking that I had a lead after killing a majority of his army and a good portion of his SCV's. I should have kept on reinforcing with zerglings/banelings instead. This build is even more greedy than any other FE build, you just have to do a huge baneling bust to counter it. Granted, it's very difficult to scout, but there were a few noticeable patterns between the Jungle Basin game and the Shakuras plateau game. Seeing the constant small waves of marines and heavy emphasis on marines early in the game with no rax add ons just made me believe that he was doing 4OC again and just said "fuck it" and decided to baneling bust. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3703/IronClad_vs_Changsta This is the game on JB and how he slowly rolls me over with pure marines. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3704/Changsta_vs_IronClad This is the game on Shakuras that I decide to just completely bust it down while his rax wall off was still building. | ||
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Conrose
437 Posts
On December 23 2010 03:11 cHaNg-sTa wrote: lol yea. Though the game on LT, he did a normal MM build and just moved out with too many small forces that got surrounded by just speedlings that I later transition into mutas. The game on Jungle Basin was the game that surprised me with the 4OC. I made a huge mistake of after busting down the wall, redroning thinking that I had a lead after killing a majority of his army and a good portion of his SCV's. I should have kept on reinforcing with zerglings/banelings instead. This build is even more greedy than any other FE build, you just have to do a huge baneling bust to counter it. Granted, it's very difficult to scout, but there were a few noticeable patterns between the Jungle Basin game and the Shakuras plateau game. Seeing the constant small waves of marines and heavy emphasis on marines early in the game with no rax add ons just made me believe that he was doing 4OC again and just said "fuck it" and decided to baneling bust. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3703/IronClad_vs_Changsta This is the game on JB and how he slowly rolls me over with pure marines. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/3704/Changsta_vs_IronClad This is the game on Shakuras that I decide to just completely bust it down while his rax wall off was still building. Can you post a picture of what your face looked like when you saw the 4 OCs? Anyways, something I want to try out for 3v3s and 4v4s is a 4OC into Mass Gas Expand using PFs and Turrets where the emphasis on the 3rd and 4th expansions is to saturate the gas, and maybe using them as my MULE dump to conserve minerals at my main and natural in the event my forward expansions do end up falling to allow for a transition into Mass T3 Units for myself or send them to an ally who is already well on their way to T3 Tech. And I will be able to test on 3v3 until next Monday and see how it goes. | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
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