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[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 27

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
December 15 2010 22:55 GMT
#521
I'm going to restructure the OP in the next few days so it becomes similar to the Liquipedia page on 1rax FE from BW. The mid-game feels quite similar. There are several timing windows I'm trying to work out, namely:

Pre-Infestors
Pre-Broodlordd/Ultra
Pre-Saturated3rd

Stay tuned!
griffith.583 (NA)
Conrose
Profile Joined October 2010
437 Posts
December 16 2010 00:58 GMT
#522
On December 15 2010 15:50 johanngrunt wrote:
The real strength of this strategy is in team games =)


In 2v2s, it's actually a bit harder to pull off than in 1v1 since both teams could end up hitting you or your partner during the 7-9 minute window, and Ling Bling can be particularly disastrous for you since unlike a 1v1, they can continue the push right after you trade your marines for the zerg's blings through the partner's forces.

Now if you can get away with murder with 3v3 and 4v4 builds, this could be called genocide. It's traditionally very difficult to get a 3rd expansion in these larger matches without cutting into a partner's natural since it only takes one opponent to randomly scout your attempt at an expansion to have it focused down by 2 player's worth of army count. This build can achieve 3 Bases worth of mineral income from only 2 bases and expands with fair ease with the extra OCs, and you can easily boost your gas income by sending out extra SCVs to build refineries at several points and lifting your OC's to the refineries after they are finished building with very put at risk. Your marines safeguard against a lot of the more gimmicky plays that players try in 3v3 and 4v4. And if you are started in one of the more secure locations on a map, you can even cut the 2nd Rax and the first 5 marines in favor of faster CCs if you're partners are particularly talented at the early defense.
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
December 16 2010 01:06 GMT
#523
I'd love to try my wits against this. Are there any 2.5k+ Terrans on the European server who knows how to play this?
Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
December 16 2010 21:57 GMT
#524
adding two more replays using SK Terran Transition:

(I think anti-social munky would go gaga over this)

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/117042-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/117041-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
griffith.583 (NA)
TheRealDJ
Profile Joined August 2010
United States124 Posts
December 16 2010 22:19 GMT
#525
On December 16 2010 09:58 Conrose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2010 15:50 johanngrunt wrote:
The real strength of this strategy is in team games =)


In 2v2s, it's actually a bit harder to pull off than in 1v1 since both teams could end up hitting you or your partner during the 7-9 minute window, and Ling Bling can be particularly disastrous for you since unlike a 1v1, they can continue the push right after you trade your marines for the zerg's blings through the partner's forces.

Now if you can get away with murder with 3v3 and 4v4 builds, this could be called genocide. It's traditionally very difficult to get a 3rd expansion in these larger matches without cutting into a partner's natural since it only takes one opponent to randomly scout your attempt at an expansion to have it focused down by 2 player's worth of army count. This build can achieve 3 Bases worth of mineral income from only 2 bases and expands with fair ease with the extra OCs, and you can easily boost your gas income by sending out extra SCVs to build refineries at several points and lifting your OC's to the refineries after they are finished building with very put at risk. Your marines safeguard against a lot of the more gimmicky plays that players try in 3v3 and 4v4. And if you are started in one of the more secure locations on a map, you can even cut the 2nd Rax and the first 5 marines in favor of faster CCs if you're partners are particularly talented at the early defense.

The only risk is if the opponents rush you during that window, you won't be able to hold off three armies at once. You'll need to coordinate with the other two people to have a unified defense.
Bixs
Profile Joined September 2010
Denmark66 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-16 22:50:30
December 16 2010 22:50 GMT
#526
On December 16 2010 10:06 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
I'd love to try my wits against this. Are there any 2.5k+ Terrans on the European server who knows how to play this?

Yea, sure me :D

Edit: sorry for flood, using pm
Conrose
Profile Joined October 2010
437 Posts
December 17 2010 00:52 GMT
#527
On December 17 2010 07:19 TheRealDJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 16 2010 09:58 Conrose wrote:
On December 15 2010 15:50 johanngrunt wrote:
The real strength of this strategy is in team games =)


In 2v2s, it's actually a bit harder to pull off than in 1v1 since both teams could end up hitting you or your partner during the 7-9 minute window, and Ling Bling can be particularly disastrous for you since unlike a 1v1, they can continue the push right after you trade your marines for the zerg's blings through the partner's forces.

Now if you can get away with murder with 3v3 and 4v4 builds, this could be called genocide. It's traditionally very difficult to get a 3rd expansion in these larger matches without cutting into a partner's natural since it only takes one opponent to randomly scout your attempt at an expansion to have it focused down by 2 player's worth of army count. This build can achieve 3 Bases worth of mineral income from only 2 bases and expands with fair ease with the extra OCs, and you can easily boost your gas income by sending out extra SCVs to build refineries at several points and lifting your OC's to the refineries after they are finished building with very put at risk. Your marines safeguard against a lot of the more gimmicky plays that players try in 3v3 and 4v4. And if you are started in one of the more secure locations on a map, you can even cut the 2nd Rax and the first 5 marines in favor of faster CCs if you're partners are particularly talented at the early defense.

The only risk is if the opponents rush you during that window, you won't be able to hold off three armies at once. You'll need to coordinate with the other two people to have a unified defense.


It's why I said "If you started in one of the more secure locations on a map". Some maps are more conducive towards trying out this build, while other 3v3/4v4 maps I wouldn't even try it since on some maps, distance between allied bases diminishes the team aspect of the defenders advantage too greatly to survive a push without using units for some sort of delaying action.
odE
Profile Joined December 2010
Finland177 Posts
December 17 2010 01:23 GMT
#528
I just started playing recently, but Ive been using this build as my baseline in all low league games and Ive done pretty good so far
uSnAmplified
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1029 Posts
December 17 2010 03:32 GMT
#529
Really impressed with your dedication to this thread/build most people make these kinds of threads and they simply disappear after a couple days. Im pretty new having just switched to terran and im trying to learn this build, im not good at it yet but its showing promise compared to what i was trying before. Anymore info on an SK-terran transition would be great also!
~
ZerG~LegenD
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Sweden1179 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 12:46:00
December 17 2010 11:16 GMT
#530
Had a random run-in with the build when my friend asked me to play his friend. He was only 2.4k but put up a better fight than most 3k+ Terrans I've played. I'm still a ticking timebomb though =)

Replay

Also, I don't think it's wise to play to extremely bio heavy unless you have amazing control. You say so in the OP and yet the bio build is the one I've seen in every replay I've watched with this opening.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 16:42:18
December 17 2010 16:40 GMT
#531
I agree - there needs to be a plan for a transition to T2 or T2.5, pure MMM greatly loses its effectiveness if the game isn't over by 15 minutes. Zerg super late game is still an unstoppable time bomb without heavy pressure throughout mid game.

The bio one is the most frequent one seen because a lot of games end before tech can kick in. By no means is 4OC a "timing push", its more of an opening similar to 4OC that leads to numerous timings but with much greater ferocity due to the economic advantage.
griffith.583 (NA)
raf3776
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States1904 Posts
December 17 2010 16:45 GMT
#532
On December 15 2010 12:07 Griffith` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 15 2010 12:05 30to1 wrote:
you're right griffin, sorry - your build is perfect. there is really no weakness.

it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try....



OK you're just pulling shit out of your ass and using strawman arguments. "Pros are all wrong?" Since when did pros even become part of this argument? You're putting words into my mouth. How can pros be "wrong" when the majority of them haven't even commented on it or tried it out? The ones who have, eg. vVvNGry have had amazing successes with it. How come you completely discredit that?

Seriously man I think you're feeling way overprotective of your "OC Farming" idea. You're just borderline trolling at this point.

They actually talked about the build on Sup Doodz and gretorp broke the build down to why it's a bad build
WWJD (What Would Jaedong Do)
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 16:59:58
December 17 2010 16:56 GMT
#533
Edit: Trying to find the VOD for it.
griffith.583 (NA)
TheRealDJ
Profile Joined August 2010
United States124 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 18:05:55
December 17 2010 18:04 GMT
#534
On December 17 2010 20:16 ZerG~LegenD wrote:
Had a random run-in with the build when my friend asked me to play his friend. He was only 2.4k but put up a better fight than most 3k+ Terrans I've played. I'm still a ticking timebomb though =)

Replay

Also, I don't think it's wise to play to extremely bio heavy unless you have amazing control. You say so in the OP and yet the bio build is the one I've seen in every replay I've watched with this opening.


It depends on what they're going for. If they're only using zergling/baneling, then I would recommend just keep throwing units at them until you can take out one of their bases. The reason why this works so well is zerglings are larvae intensive per resource compared to other units, such as roach or hydra. One larvae for a roach vs one larvae for 2 zerglings is a sizable difference in resources if they aren't able to keep up in production facilities and creating an extra hatchery takes a good amount of time. Although I do this with a transition into 6 OCs, so it may not work with a purely 4OC build.

But yes hopefully you do have atleast a factory, and armory for 2/2 upgrades, and potentially a starport coming.
Conrose
Profile Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 18:42:42
December 17 2010 18:37 GMT
#535
Yeah, Ling/Bling out of 2 Bases/3 Hatch gets outmacroed by MM Spam out of 7+ Raxes out of 2 Bases/4OC when the Marines have some decent micro behind them. In the replays the Zerg player does well keeping the bioballs out, but is never able to establish map control. The solid wall the Zerg players eventually run into is that they have to expand. Because Map Control is at this point essentially split between the Terran and the Zerg Player, the Terran has an easy time sniping the expansion while the Terran is easily able to salvage an expansion under attack by lifting off the OC they sent and queuing up SCVs to replace those that were lost in the attack. The Zerg has to sacrifice larva that can be spent on units to try to keep their own economy up to snuff. this results in a shift of map control in the Terran's favor at which point you watch the momentum quickly snowball into a very solid push into the natural.

Also note that both of Zerg's T1.5 gas units are countered pretty hard by Terran's T1.5 unit of choice to accompany marines.
cactuschewer
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom152 Posts
December 17 2010 18:39 GMT
#536
Someone tried to do this to me once, i sent some lings in after i held off the 2rax to see 4OCs being made, so I just rallied zerglings and banelings in and tried to kill him before he could get an advantage
Conrose
Profile Joined October 2010
437 Posts
December 17 2010 18:45 GMT
#537
On December 18 2010 03:39 cactuschewer wrote:
Someone tried to do this to me once, i sent some lings in after i held off the 2rax to see 4OCs being made, so I just rallied zerglings and banelings in and tried to kill him before he could get an advantage


The "Tried" suggests you failed.
TheRealDJ
Profile Joined August 2010
United States124 Posts
December 17 2010 18:48 GMT
#538
On December 18 2010 03:37 Conrose wrote:
Yeah, Ling/Bling out of 2 Bases/3 Hatch gets outmacroed by MM Spam out of 7+ Raxes out of 2 Bases/4OC when the Marines have some decent micro behind them. In the replays the Zerg player does well keeping the bioballs out, but is never able to establish map control. The solid wall the Zerg players eventually run into is that they have to expand. Because Map Control is at this point essentially split between the Terran and the Zerg Player, the Terran has an easy time sniping the expansion while the Terran is easily able to salvage an expansion under attack by lifting off the OC they sent and queuing up SCVs to replace those that were lost in the attack. The Zerg has to sacrifice larva that can be spent on units to try to keep their own economy up to snuff. this results in a shift of map control in the Terran's favor at which point you watch the momentum quickly snowball into a very solid push into the natural.

Also note that both of Zerg's T1.5 gas units are countered pretty hard by Terran's T1.5 unit of choice to accompany marines.

Very good points, which forces them to commit to what they usually assume is a stronger combination of zergling/baneling, but never leaves them with enough units to counter attack. And then like you mentioned, forces them to not expand their economy or tech. Without the ability to get to broodlords/ultras, they end up painting themselves into a corner.
Conrose
Profile Joined October 2010
437 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-17 18:56:55
December 17 2010 18:55 GMT
#539
On December 18 2010 03:48 TheRealDJ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 18 2010 03:37 Conrose wrote:
Yeah, Ling/Bling out of 2 Bases/3 Hatch gets outmacroed by MM Spam out of 7+ Raxes out of 2 Bases/4OC when the Marines have some decent micro behind them. In the replays the Zerg player does well keeping the bioballs out, but is never able to establish map control. The solid wall the Zerg players eventually run into is that they have to expand. Because Map Control is at this point essentially split between the Terran and the Zerg Player, the Terran has an easy time sniping the expansion while the Terran is easily able to salvage an expansion under attack by lifting off the OC they sent and queuing up SCVs to replace those that were lost in the attack. The Zerg has to sacrifice larva that can be spent on units to try to keep their own economy up to snuff. this results in a shift of map control in the Terran's favor at which point you watch the momentum quickly snowball into a very solid push into the natural.

Also note that both of Zerg's T1.5 gas units are countered pretty hard by Terran's T1.5 unit of choice to accompany marines.

Very good points, which forces them to commit to what they usually assume is a stronger combination of zergling/baneling, but never leaves them with enough units to counter attack. And then like you mentioned, forces them to not expand their economy or tech. Without the ability to get to broodlords/ultras, they end up painting themselves into a corner.


I prefer the expression of "Spending themselves into a gutter."

But yeah, I've found that once the Terran expands to 8 Refineries, they can fast track any tech they want and even pump endless Thors out of 3 Factories which is a favorite transition of mine in 2v2s and 3v3s.
TheRealDJ
Profile Joined August 2010
United States124 Posts
December 17 2010 19:08 GMT
#540
On December 18 2010 03:39 cactuschewer wrote:
Someone tried to do this to me once, i sent some lings in after i held off the 2rax to see 4OCs being made, so I just rallied zerglings and banelings in and tried to kill him before he could get an advantage

Did he have any kind of wall-in? If it was two rax on top of ramp, it should be easy enough to make a bunker or depot to seal it, and if it was a depot/rax at bottom of ramp, then he could reinforce it with the second rax and an OC at the top of ramp in case of a baneling bust.
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