My ID: Griffith.583 (US) feel free to request TvZs against this
To all Terrans, ever DREAD going into mid-game feeling like you're going against a ticking timebomb? Ever want to pull out your teeth than to go into a macro TvZ game? Ever WISHED you could force zerg to feel the "Pressure or Die"? Well, here's a new BO for you guys!
10 Supply Depot 12 Rax (make marines) 14 Rax (make marines, once you make 5 marines send them to the enemy ASAP, you want to deal damage, exchange supply with zerg if they 14/15 hatch. **CAVEAT, if on your scouting SCV, you see that your opponent is 1basing, ie. 5RR or 1base dimaga baneling bust, do NOT send your 5 marines, wall off appropriately with your 22 CC and add in a bunker or two. 27 SD then 27 CC. ) 15 OC 16 Supply Depot 23 CC 27 CC 27 Supply Depot (SD is built AFTER CC because we should have been able to free 5 supply from the 5 marine rush) 31 CC (***Situational and map dependent due to several factors***) 33 Gas 33 Gas
Once CCs are finished, convert into orbital commands. Take only your natural, dont bother taking your 3rd until you have an army in the 120+ food count that can help you safely secure your third. It is way too dangerous to try and take a 3rd. Yes I know it looks absolutely retarded but it is quite strong in defending against early pressure like 5RR/7RR, baneling busts. The 2 rax opening can pump out a lot more marines than you can think to give you more than an adequate defense. Because of the hugely macro-oriented opening, this opens up an entirely new mid-game for Terran with some devastating builds. I've tested with 3 transitions fairly successfully.
Standard Transitions
If you are new to the macro mechanics of 4OC, I recommend starting with Transition #1 until you get the hang of the insane income.
Marine Marauder (+Medivac) is a fairly strong transition as it has a relatively low gas dependence, and is thus, mineral-bound. You only need get 2, maybe 3 out of the 4 available geysers. Marauders can tank Banelings like a boss. Your goal is to immediately make the equivalent of a 20 rax. eg. while adding in two engineering bays. You can feel free to send in waves at 60 food, 100 food, and 150 food, it will keep the zerg on his feet.
Building Composition (make 10 raxes total, so 8 more after you get your CCs up)
4 Raxes w/ tech lab making marauders (8 marauders every minute, 16 supply) 6 Raxes w/ reactor making marines (28 marines every minute, 28 supply)
Replenish rate: 44 supply every minute.
If you want to incorporate Medivacs, esp if you see a ton of infestors, put up fact after you have 4 raxes, and go for the following building composition:
1 Port with Reactor making medivacs (2.84 or ~3 Medivacs every minute, ~6 supply) 3 Rax w/ Tech Lab making marauders (6 Marauders every minute, ~12 supply) 5 Rax w/ Reactor making marines (23.33 Marines every minute, ~23 supply)
Replenish rate: 41 supply every minute.
The following 6 things are important: 1. Take Expo and put up Bunkers at expo, transfer workers, constant MULEs. 2. Set up turrets at base and expo to prevent muta harass. 3. Research Stim, Marine Shield, +1 weapons upgrade, +1 armor upgrade. EDIT: and concussive shells (thanks for the replies). Keep up those upgrades!! 4. If he has a heavy heavy roach or baneling army, increase marauders ratio to 1:1. 5. Once you have a dominant army, move another OC and secure your third with your humongous army. 6. Your 200/200 army is PERSISTENT, meaning it can replenish it self extremely fast (within minutes). It's almost an aggressive "300-food army" , as coined by day9.
What this gives you: 13-14 Minute Push (12:30 provided you have perfect macro):
You should have a 200/200 Marine Marauder food army, with stim, with combat shields, and with 1/1 upgrades just about to finish.
This transition is disgustingly strong against nearly all zerg combinations, the timing push comes 2-3 minutes before Zerg safely can earliest tech to Broodlord/Ultralisk. Esp if he has invested significantly in banelings/roaches/slings/infestors. Read the Advanced Biomech Transition Timing guide for additional information.
You will need all 4 gas geysers to maintain this. Right after you 33 double gas,starting with your 2 raxes, add buildings in the following order:
You can simultaneously support:
2 Fact w/ tech lab pumping out two siege tanks (2 per minute, 6 supply/min) 1 Fact w/ reactor pumping out dual hellions (4 per minute, 8 supply/min) 2 Rax w/ tech lab pumping out marauders (4 per minute, 8 supply/min) 6 Rax w/o addons pumping out marines (12 per minute, 12 supply/min) Note it's probably cheaper to just make 6 raxes as opposed to 3rax w/reactors, you really need as much gas as you can get - 150 gas on reactors is a lot.
Replenish rate: 34 Supply every minute (ie. the mech transition takes 30% longer to replenish in case of wipe-out)
Ratio of Tanks:Hellions:Marauders:Marines in the final composition is: 1:2:2:6
14-15:30 Minute Push:
8 tanks, 16 hellions, 16 marauders, 48 marines. Timed properly, you will have the following upgrades just finishing: Stim/CombatShield/ConcShell Siege Tank Tech Pre-igniters Infantry 1/1 upgrades (Preferably by the second push, +1 vehicle weapons upgrade)
Transition #3: MM Thor into 3Thor 3Medivac Hatch Snipe: + Show Spoiler +
Marine Marauder Thor is another disgustingly strong combination, mainly for two reasons:
1) it is extremely difficult to aggress MM thor mid-game
and 2) What it leads to.
After your opening, take all 4 gases, make a total of 4 raxes (as usual), then
Go for a total of:
2 fact w/ tech labs to pump out thors. 2 rax w/ tech labs to pump out marauders. 12 rax (no addons) to pump out marines.
After your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box.
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build
Transition #4: Marine Raven / SK Terran (antisocialmunky) + Show Spoiler +
Antisocialmunky has an amazing thread about its cost effectiveness. The 4OC variant of SK Terran is basically the standard Marine / Raven but with about 3 times more pressure / # of marines.
If your opponent is going for sling/bling/infestors (no mutas), go for transition #2 If your opponent is going bling/sling/muta, go for either transition #1 (if you have amazing control) or #3 (if you want to play it safe) If your opponent is going for roaches/baneling, modify #2 by cutting hellion and pump instead into marines, be sure to keep up tank production)
Warning: This essentially outlines transition #2, but with the caveat of being EXTREMELY apm intensive and detailed as you will need to micro/macro at a FRANTIC pace. It will take probably about 1-2 months of practice. Thus, it is recommended most for 2k+ Terran players. You need superb micro and macro skill. The transition uses absolute in-game timing as opposed to supply-timing because of the large macro dependency.
The Strategy ------------------
Any strategy should have a key element of synergy, ie. a combination of strategical decisions that collaboration, produces an effect whos benefit is greater than the sum of its whole (ie. 2+2=5 mentality). The strategy is to simultaneously delay zerg's macro ability (using a never ending supply of blue flame hellion raids) while teching up and building a fearsome biomech army.
Synergy elements for this strat:
-4OC provides you with an overabundance of minerals -Hellions are an extremely cost-effective way of harassing the mineral line. Hellions also happen to be mineral bound -The only zerg unit that can catch up to Hellion is the speedling on creep, which coincidentally, gets destroyed by blue flame hellions (With proper kiting/stutter step techniques). The Hellion is faster than the Muta and Roach.
Building Production Schedule (This is an extremely tight timing, if you do it well you will be about 30 seconds to 1:30 minute late behind schedule.)
6:30 should be when the opening ends and you should just finish your expo's OC. 6:30 +2 Raxes (4 total), build them in such a way that it walls off your natural expo 6:30 Tech lab on both raxes (Research concussive shells) 7:00 Take both gases at expo 7:00 Build bunkers at expo 7:30 Reactor off two raxes (4 raxes total, 2 tech lab, 2 reactored) 8:05 Double Ebay (You can use them as part of your wall, research +1/+1 ASAP) 8:10 Double Fact 8:40 Research Infantry +1/+1 upgrades. 9:25 Swap 1 Fact onto Tech-lab from Rax, Swap other fact onto reactor 9:25 Start hellion production 9:25 Armory 9:35 Research Blue-Flame 9:40 +2 Raxes (6 total now, 2 with tech labs, 4 with reactor) 9:40 +1 Fact (3 total now, 2 with tech labs making tanks, 1 with reactor making hellions) 10:00 Begin Onslaught of hellion harass (you'll have 2 blue-flamed hellions every 30 seconds to endlessly harass mineral lines) 10:15 Sensor Tower in main + 2 Turrets (optional, but I like to do it) 10:45 +1 Vehicle weapons upgrade 10:45 Switch to Thor Production for one cycle (Make 2 Thors total) 11:20 Research Infantry +2/+2 upgrades. 12:10 Stimpack research 12:40 Combat Shields 13:00 Secure your 3rd 13:10 Siege tech
:: Mineral Income of about 2200/gas income of 228/456 depending the transition :: Most zergs will be at about 100~120 food, tops. :: Feel free to push earlier if you want, (I know thread title says its a 200 food push, but realistically, after some feedback from TLers, if the zerg starts to mass expand and provided you have the apm/macro/micro, you can and should push much more aggressively and early)
When to push, when to expand, and where to attack (coming soon): + Show Spoiler +
You absolutely have to scout throughout the game. One of the key strengths of the MMM variant is mobility. Most zergs take a third between 9 minutes to 11 minutes, so absolutely make sure you know its progress. Zerg macro is still unbelievably frightening if left unchecked. If the zerg however, decides to all-in with a 2base build like econ roach or econ baneling bust, then turtle up until you can 200/200 - let the zerg waste his precious larvae on combat units.
EXPAND USING PLANETARY FORTRESSES. Yes - spend that 550/150 at around 12 minutes to make another CC->PF for expansion, 550/150 is CHUMP CHANGE. It takes you 15 seconds to make that much minerals and 20 seconds to make that much gas.
Q: Why doesn't this work against Toss? A: 5 marine timing push does very little against toss, also 3gate robo, blink stalker timing push, 4gate, and 3gate all-in are far too common place and completely undefendable. Marauders w/ concshells is needed and it necessitates gas, which delays the OCs considerably. Special thanks to farseerdk for pointing these and several other TvP issues out.
Q: How do you deal with 5RR? A: You will need two bunkers at ramp as soon as you spot the early Roach Warren. Two loaded bunkers with 4 SCVs remaining is usually enough. Although 2 bunkers will delay your CCs by about 1.5 minutes, 5RR delays zerg significantly macro. This build IS 5RR proof, it has been tested on steppes of war (shortest rush distance of any map) numerous times.
Q: How do you deal with all-in baneling bust? A: The solution is well placed wall-ins. If you want to play safe, do not use a supply depot to wall-off. Furthermore, if you spot early double gas (tell tale sign of baneling bust), you can position your ramp such that it is walled off by two barracks and a command center. Which requires 15 banelings and an all-in strat. Like the 5RR, baneling busts puts the zerg so far behind on econ that if you survive, you will be able to roll them over easily.
Q: How do you deal with muta harass? A: Spam turrets. Like a boss. (Watch some VODs of Flash from BW, he literally spams turrets like no tomorrow, and for good reason.)
Q: When/what do you take your 3rd with? Preferably at around 13-14 minutes, using a PLANETARY FORTRESS. It only costs 550 minerals + 150 gas, or about 15-20 seconds worth of mining time. (income of 2200/450 gas). PFs are so hard to take down, especially when you get the +2 building armor upgrade.
Q: Why doesn't the zerg double/triple/quadruple expand? A: Let's look at the timing. Remember zerg will have been hit by a 5 marine push at around 5:00, these 5 marines will also be able to deny any early overlord scouting to prevent seeing the 4OC. It also makes it seem like you are doing a standard 2rax-expo or 5-rax all-in. The zerg can only comfortably double+ expand if he has scouted your build. You can hide your CCs away from the ramp. Your fourth 4th CC is placed at around 5:30 and finishes at around 7:00. Meaning realistically, the Zerg would have to sac Overlords to see the 4OCs at around 5:30 and double expand at between 6 to 8 minutes. You will have enough marines patrolling your base to make this very difficult. If he starts the expos at 6:00, he won't finish the hatcheries until 7:40.
You have at least around 15-25 marines _already_ at 8:00 (from the production off of the 2rax). At 8:30 minutes the Terran already has 6 raxes churning out marines non-stop. I think the timing is too dangerous for the zerg to double expand. Terran doesn't _have_ to sit until 200/200. Triple expanding means zerg will have no way of defending a 75 food push. Taking a 2nd expo seems feasible, but 3rd seems impossible. But again, even taking a 2nd expo doesn't even come close to 2200 minerals/min.
Why this strat works and is distinctly unique from other BOs :
1. 4 OCs abuses the fact that you can OVERSATURATE a mineral patch, so being on 2 bases with 4 OCs is really as if you are being on 4 bases (only difference is that you can't produce as much gas intensive units). Though you WILL deplete your main extremely quickly. 2. Oversaturation means that you can have mineral income equivalent of 3 and a half bases 3. The biggest problem with a 200/200 army for terran is that it takes so damn long to replenish, however, if you have 16 rax constantly pumping out, you'll be at 200/200 the whole game. 4. Once you have a dominate position, it allows you to easily take a 3rd expo. 5. You will OUTWORKER the zerg, meaning your SCV count will be on par with the zerg's drone count, if not superior. 6. Perhaps the most important of all, it is disguised as a very aggressive 2rax+expo or 5rax-all-in, it forces things like spinecrawlers, early banelings, etc. to slow down the zerg economy. 7. It lets you STABILIZE a 200/200 army, meaning they can be very quickly replenished after tradeoffs, many terran builds and mid-game suffers in that it is very tedious and arduous to replenish that 200/200 army.
That was hilariously entertaining, however I only watched the first game. That was indeed a very powerful army very early in the game, I think though that had the Zerg controlled better he should have won quite easily. Too often he engaged at the choke, and made your army more efficient in doing so. Perhaps you opponent plays better in the seconds game, and that is a better display of the strength of this build, but I definitely think you have found something here. I noticed towards the end you were floating really high on gas, perhaps the perfect addition would be ghosts to emp infestors and snipe banelings, provided you have the APM to do so.
Fascinating. Two extra OCs costs 400 mins per CC, plus another 150 per for the upgrade, meaning 550 per OC, 1100 min total? If a mule is 300 mins, that means you're back to even after just 4 mule calldowns, which should happen , so after the fourth mule calldown, it's all profit.
I can see why this might've worked really well on jungle basin.
On December 03 2010 05:09 Itrees wrote: Fascinating. Two extra OCs costs 400 mins per CC, plus another 150 per for the upgrade, meaning 550 per OC, 1100 min total? If a mule is 300 mins, that means you're back to even after just 4 mule calldowns, which should happen , so after the fourth mule calldown, it's all profit.
I can see why this might've worked really well on jungle basin.
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote: So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.
Having watched the second game, I really like this build, as the best counter would be baneling/infestor, which your opponent tried and failed. The second game was a much better display, showing that with good marauder control, this build is a force to be reckoned with. i did find myself worrying about an early baneling bust or roach push, maybe upload a replay of you dealing with those?
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote: So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.
Well, actually he can. Two rax army is hardly enough to prevent Zerg from taking the map. They can hardcore powerdrones with relatively few units and still few safe.
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote: So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
He also needs to saturate all those bases with the same larva he makes units with. Due to the earlyness (made up word ftw?) of this maxed army I feel as though the zerg would be caught completely off guard and still won't be able to make as many units.
I do think it is definitely vulnerable but this is extremely interesting.
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote: So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.
Well, actually he can. Two rax army is hardly enough to prevent Zerg from taking the map. They can hardcore powerdrones with relatively few units and still few safe.
The main problem is how you plan on scouting 4 CCs. If positioned well, the CCs can be hidden from ramp vision and is unscoutable unless you sac a very early overlord. If your ramp drone can scout one OC (he might think 2 rax expand), or no OCs, (5rax allin). In both these scenarios, Z can't expand. This build is DISGUISED as a very early aggressive "all-in", esp with the 5 marine timing push, but allows a smooth transition into a scary 200/200 army.
I actually played you last night doing this build, when i watched the replay to my surprise and saw the build i thought it was quite clever. Also made me rant to a friend on how retarded mules are... anyway nice build keep it coming
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote: So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.
Well, actually he can. Two rax army is hardly enough to prevent Zerg from taking the map. They can hardcore powerdrones with relatively few units and still few safe.
The main problem is how you plan on scouting 4 CCs. If positioned well, the CCs can be hidden from ramp vision unless you sac a very early overlord. If your ramp drone can scout one OC (he might think 2 rax expand), or no OCs, (5rax allin). In both these scenarios, Z can't expand. This build is DISGUISED as a very early aggressive "all-in", esp with the 5 marine timing push, but allows a smooth transition into a scary 200/200 army.
I never said that you couldn't hide it. I was just saying if scouted.
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote: So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
No way that's a 2.3k Zerg. He never scouted you after seeing the initial 2 rax and just started to blindly pump banelings off 2 base and proceeded to not do anything with them till you attacked him with a maxed bio army. He never even scouted you had expanded and had 5 orbital commands lol.
His macro also kinda sucked, after he threw all his banelings into your bio (and for some reason he moved them along with the muta's so the mutalisks didn't even attack) he had 3k 2k in minerals and gas saved up but no larvae to spend them on since he never used larvae spit.
Long story short, if he had rolled all those banelings he had built into your bases you would've died. If they were roaches you also would've died, if he had expanded for every command center you made you also would've died.
yeah i really like this strategy. i really think mass orbitals are the way to go in the future if terran decides to go for a macro game. mass mules means you can have pure 200/200 army instead of army - workers.
On December 03 2010 05:40 Saechiis wrote: Hahaha, just watched the replay on Xel'Naga.
No way that's a 2.3k Zerg. He never scouted you after seeing the initial 2 rax and just started to blindly pump banelings off 2 base and proceeded to not do anything with them till you attacked him with a maxed bio army. He never even scouted you had expanded and had 5 orbital commands lol.
His macro also kinda sucked, after he threw all his banelings into your bio (and for some reason he moved them along with the muta's so the mutalisks didn't even attack) he had 3k 2k in minerals and gas saved up but no larvae to spend them on since he never used larvae spit.
Long story short, if he had rolled all those banelings he had built into your bases you would've died. If they were roaches you also would've died, if he had expanded for every command center you made he also would've died.
Like I said before, its disguised as a 2rax expo aggressive push, or 5rax all-in, in both these scenarios, early banelings is an absolutely must, and you need the baneling army.
He couldnt' have "rolled banelings" because he didn't get baneling speed, and being that aggressive without baneling speed is a huge waste, off-creep against a huge ball of marines/marauders. Roaches against stimmed MM? are you kidding me? Roaches will get destroyed.
As for expanding, again, you don't know if its 2rax 1expo, 5rax, or 2rax 4OC. Its way too dangerous to expand if its the former 2.
On December 03 2010 05:44 PowerDes wrote: How come this isn't viable vs toss?
Mainly because blink stalkers can make wall-ins next to useless and the timing for that is just as the OCs are going up and for the reasons above, you can't early pressure with the 5 marines against toss.
On December 03 2010 05:40 Saechiis wrote: It's just economic cheese.
This sounds so counter-intuitive yet so right XD
In regards to this style, I imagine a decent amount of pressure could put a significant dent in it, but if a player doesn't see it coming they'd probably get ran over. How does this build play out when it gets scouted?
Not impressed by the replays. This is basically just a 13 minutes cheese. Unless you kill every expo the zerg has besides his main/nat, you're going lose the game. You are virtually mined out by the time your first attack is over, and you won't even be able to expand behind a couple PFs since your 3rd/4th CCs are already orbitals.
Let's see some replays vs some better zergs. The guy you played refused to macro didnt even try the slightest of flanks the entire game.
On December 03 2010 05:55 PowerDes wrote: I assume baneling busts can be stopped just by completely blocking off everything with barracks/engineering bays?
This, you can use your command center to wall off as well if you suspect baneling bust.
I was pretty impressed by the amount of production you could get off 2 bases, but how about we make this a little less gimmicky/all-in.
Have you tried delaying Command Center #4 in favor of faster gas? If you could do this while teching up, you could incorporate medivacs/hellions earlier and maybe put on pressure during the midgame so Zerg can't pump drones for 6 minutes straight.
Also, please take a 3rd base when you move out. It hurt to see your main mined out and 4 OCs just sitting there while you have 40 SCVs with nothing to do.
On December 03 2010 04:50 Griffith` wrote: Once CCs are finished, convert into orbital commands. Take only your natural, dont bother taking your 3rd until you have 200/200
this made me freaking lol.
watched the replays, your builds incredibly vulnerable to any zerg who isn't terrible with ling/bling or ling/bling/muta. I think you have a lot more replays of this failing and aren't showing.
also its not a PUSH, especially not with 4 CC's. If you show me a push you have that includes CC's I will be fucking impressed
On December 03 2010 06:05 Shlowpoke wrote: I was pretty impressed by the amount of production you could get off 2 bases, but how about we make this a little less gimmicky/all-in.
Have you tried delaying Command Center #4 in favor of faster gas? If you could do this while teching up, you could incorporate medivacs/hellions earlier and maybe put on pressure during the midgame so Zerg can't pump drones for 6 minutes straight.
Also, please take a 3rd base when you move out. It hurt to see your main mined out and 4 OCs just sitting there while you have 40 SCVs with nothing to do.
I've been trying to find ways to transition to mech, but the main concern is that mech is mostly gas-bound. You can probably add in 2-3 factories here and there to pump out some tanks for the 13 minute push. Again, (MM)+M is one transition mainly just due to its enormous size. Tanks/Thors etc. require more buildings(which are gas intensive) to be built.
On December 03 2010 06:14 mOnion wrote: this isn't even actually a build really, its just a technique of cutting units to add to your economy with mules
and you'll have incredibly late Medivacs, ugh idunno I just don't think burning 800 mins on CC's is worth it.
I don't think this is hard to scout at all. This is just a bad eco cheese. I can't see this working high level play. No way that replay was against a high level zerg.
I think with refinement, the idea of extra orbitals for more mules and fewer depots is a good one. Maybe not quite as extreme as all the new builds are doing, but 1-2 extra orbitals can make a huge difference.
The '200/200' part is misleading because you're not bothering with medivacs and are just pumping pure marine+marauder, which is going to suck vs Muta/Ling/Baneling.
Watched the game on Jungle Basin - that was painful. The Zerg's at 160 supply with 2k+2k resources, when there nothing going on. All he had to do was macro and it still slipped! Opting to not make any lings at the start was really really stupid too, hindered him a lot when he pulled all the drones off.
And even after the first battle (where if he had better control/attacked in a better position/flanked he would've done a lot better) he was still in great shape, but he just let his 3rd base get sniped again and again.
Honestly if you put that all together Terran isn't really at any sort of advantage at all. You've just let Zerg do what he wants for 12 minutes so if he's competent he should be more than prepared for whatever you throw at him
On December 03 2010 05:09 Itrees wrote: Fascinating. Two extra OCs costs 400 mins per CC, plus another 150 per for the upgrade, meaning 550 per OC, 1100 min total? If a mule is 300 mins, that means you're back to even after just 4 mule calldowns, which should happen , so after the fourth mule calldown, it's all profit.
I can see why this might've worked really well on jungle basin.
2 mule call downs buddy, 2 orbitals = 2 mules = 500/600 minerals. Don't forget the extra depot you save as well.
I think the idea of having several OC's is great. The repleys in the OP lacked a lot of potential aggression from the terran player aswell as very late medivacs. I don't know if this 200 bio push is the build of the future but I sure believe multiple OC's will be a part of a lot of future builds.
I'm waiting for responses to the people who are doubting this works well because I doubt it does too. You answer everyone agreeing that it's good but not to the people saying it's bad? What?
On December 03 2010 06:47 Superouman wrote: At the game on jungle basin, at 19:00, you would normally lose, he had twice your supply and he didn't counter attack just after rolling over you ;_;
Similarly, at 15 Minutes, after the first fight when I had more than 50 food than him, I could have easily rolled his third. For all he knows I have another 200/200 food army hiding, and indeed, it took less than 1-2 minutes to replenish my forces. There are execution/player mistakes in every game. I'm not a pro-player, I make mistakes, in this case it was map awareness and composition awareness. The over-all effectiveness of a build is if it works in the long run.
More replays are needed in the least to sell me on this. This might have potential, but from the replays I cannot be sure if the zerg player was just bad, he choked since he didn't know how to respond or what. The production of 2 base is pretty crazy though and I'd love more replays.
Things I think would improve this build: Fewer rauders and more medivacs/tanks Earlier gas, getting 2 geysers straight after the 2 CCs possibly and the next 2 with the expo When you push out, take your 3rd with an OC(heck possibly try get 4th depending on map/make cc next to it that switches with OC for PF) Mainly for the Jungle basin game, hide the CCs better. On that particular map, you could've gotten away with those CCs without any chance of being spotted(which they ended up not getting anyway) but you kind of placed it for anyone to see. I'd say less turrets. Concussive shells.
Whether this particular build turns out to be stable or not, I think the idea of creating orbital commands for MULES is going to be useful. They pay for themselves after a few minutes, but more importantly, they let you have a bigger 200/200 army and greater income with less space to defend. I think an argument could be made that Terran should never have more than 60 workers and 2 mining bases to defend (you'll have to defend your main even after it's mined out since it has your tech).
I'm going to try this build in 2v2 on a map like twilight fortress, me going straight for the 200/200 mm army while my partner has some more tech units; colussus / high temps / infestors / corruptors / etc.
What about doing a 3rd OC on two base???? Kind of like how Z does a 3 hatch on 2 base. The extra scans mules and scv production seems like it could pay off tremendously.
Actually the biggest flaw in this build seems to be the weakness to early zerg pressure with only 2 barracks and no gas. If I scout no gas with my scouting drone i assume a marine rush or FE. I mean, no gas until 33 food - so no tech lab = no marauders, no stim pack. Your marines are just baneling food. Obviously you can bunker up, but he would just sit outside your base w/ a contain that you won't be able to break without stim or A LOT of marines. And while you're building that he's going to take an extra expansion. I understand this doesn't necessarily affect your mineral count because mules will be able to keep you on par with the zerg, but you'll obviously suffer in gas, and banelings are a very effective counter to marines.
Seems like you need to get gas after your first OC just to get a few marauders and stim pack out, otherwise you won't be able to do a second push until probably 60-70 food, when stim finishes and you have several marauders... and it'll be the push that normally comes around 45-50.
The premise of building a bunch of orbital commands as an augmentation to a terran 3 rax push seems pretty attractive. The endgame 200/200 push full of MMM seems like a bad idea against a quailty zerg, who will just baneling FG your entire army in 5 seconds. But if you augment the build and dump more of the gas into tanks and the minerals mostly into marines it'd probably be pretty potent.
What I find interesting is that generally, the Terran 200/200 ball is weaker than it's Zerg/Protoss equivalents. Perhaps blizzard intended for Terran to have far fewer workers and rely on mules. It's an interesting strategy, would like to see a pro use the mass OC method.
On December 03 2010 07:58 DuneBug wrote: Actually the biggest flaw in this build seems to be the weakness to early zerg pressure with only 2 barracks and no gas. If I scout no gas with my scouting drone i assume a marine rush or FE. I mean, no gas until 33 food - so no tech lab = no marauders, no stim pack. Your marines are just baneling food. Obviously you can bunker up, but he would just sit outside your base w/ a contain that you won't be able to break without stim or A LOT of marines. And while you're building that he's going to take an extra expansion. I understand this doesn't necessarily affect your mineral count because mules will be able to keep you on par with the zerg, but you'll obviously suffer in gas, and banelings are a very effective counter to marines.
Seems like you need to get gas after your first OC just to get a few marauders and stim pack out, otherwise you won't be able to do a second push until probably 60-70 food, when stim finishes and you have several marauders... and it'll be the push that normally comes around 45-50.
The premise of building a bunch of orbital commands as an augmentation to a terran 3 rax push seems pretty attractive. The endgame 200/200 push full of MMM seems like a bad idea against a quailty zerg, who will just baneling FG your entire army in 5 seconds. But if you augment the build and dump more of the gas into tanks and the minerals mostly into marines it'd probably be pretty potent.
Thanks for the feedback. Firstly, I agree that adding some tanks to the 13 minute push would make it exponentially more dangerous, I'm working with a few other 2k+ terrans to try and figure out the timing on how to do it at 13 minutes.
I'm aware of the "contain", but your nat expo can usually be secured without too much difficulty using bunkers/wellplaced raxes. And the units used for that contain could have been drones. As for zerg expanding to 3-4 bases. Again, the timing is such that although it alllows them to get that 3rd or 4th up, the attack comes just as the zerg wants to power drone. In most replays the zerg is up 1-2 bases/expos, but it doesn't raelly matter because the build will provide the same mineral income as four bases. A 13minute push isn't really "end-game", most zergs won't even be able to get infestors out.
On December 03 2010 06:00 Reason.SC2 wrote: This thread just gave me a brain tumor.
This strategy is so bad it hurts. You lose to just about anything other than 1 basing player who doesnt scout, expand, or tech. glhf
This ^
Made me laugh quite loudly while sitting at my desk at work. Awkward.
It might have been mentioned above but for reaffirmation - whether pumping FOUR OC's is viable or not the concept of mass MULE farming instead of scv reliance seems to be a significant factor in Terran macro approaches. So while this build may not be 100% stable (haven't tried it yet so cannot say) it provides a starting point to achieving this strategy.
I crank outta 2 rax- 4 rax 1 fac vs zerg and I get busted in under 7-8 minutes. Play a good zerg, I swear you'll get busted and he'll just feed you with 2 hatches of slings over and over. I don't think it'll work on certain maps, vs a smart opponent. 2300 550-500 isn't exactly the greatest record... Not to be a naysayer. I'm 2270 at 210-170, so another almost 1000 games for 30 points? Seems like a weak enemy you faced there.
I do a similar open, but it's 2 rax marine pressure -> CC at 27 and oversat my main until I hit tanks, then throw down the expo and take a quick third on dual fac tank marine pushes. THAT works. This? I don't see it happening well vs a quality opponent.
Scouting errors and stupid mistakes would lose to this crap, easily though.
I can't wait for the people hardcore dissing this build to run into it on ladder with a competent player using it. They scout the raxs and gear up for an attack. It doesn't come, other than harass, so they scout the expo, take one themselves and start teching up. 1 minute later a 200/200 bio-ball comes in and steamrolls their crap. They barely hold it, losing their expo, and get about 20 units out before the second 200/200 ball comes rolling in.
LOL why people get so angry? the guy is just sharing his build, i dont see him saying "THE BEST TVZ BUILD EVER" "AUTO-WIN". So quit dissing and be thankful for having some to play around with for the next couple days.
on topic: fun build, i can see it working in some maps, ill try it with some tweaks like early gas/faster 3rd/ CONC SHELLS!!!!!!!!
On December 03 2010 08:14 Sm3agol wrote: I can't wait for the people hardcore dissing this build to run into it on ladder with a competent player using it. They scout the raxs and gear up for an attack. It doesn't come, other than harass, so they scout the expo, take one themselves and start teching up. 1 minute later a 200/200 bio-ball comes in and steamrolls their crap. They barely hold it, losing their expo, and get about 20 units out before the second 200/200 ball comes rolling in.
After that 'attack that doesn't come' they sac and OL and see oh wow 4 CCs and a lot of raxes. No good player plays blind after being denied scouting. They either hit, or scout and expo.
To guy above -- some of us are tired with every nobody claiming and naming any crap fluke open by their name so they can make their mark. It's getting old. Look at all the named builds of people, find one beyond pookie thats a good player. echoic and kcdc kinda fell off the ladder wagon and dropped down low in points. It's just old people trying to make their mark on a game that's not even a year old. Just play the game, actually TRY your AWESOME STRAT before you advertise it to other gullible noobies like us who eat anything up, and then get rolled when someone scouts it and busts us, or forward proxy pylon warps you, or blinks into your base and picks you off.
I see alot of people who are unwilling to except that the game is not in its final form, and who are trying to act smart by pooping on what i see to be a excellent strategy.
On December 03 2010 08:14 Sm3agol wrote: I can't wait for the people hardcore dissing this build to run into it on ladder with a competent player using it. They scout the raxs and gear up for an attack. It doesn't come, other than harass, so they scout the expo, take one themselves and start teching up. 1 minute later a 200/200 bio-ball comes in and steamrolls their crap. They barely hold it, losing their expo, and get about 20 units out before the second 200/200 ball comes rolling in.
Assumptions in your build make for bad play. The point people are making is that if you're wrong and it IS scouted, you are going to have your hands full against a decent player.
That said, the idea is interesting and I wouldn't be surprised if people started doing similar things for extra mules, because they're stupid good. But posting here does mean all the pros and cons will be discussed, only makes builds better in the end though.
I never said that you couldn't hide it. I was just saying if scouted.
If anything is scouted, anything can be prevented. And reacted to. Which is why scouting is important. Obviously.
That's why it wouldn't be a standard build. Standard builds rarely rely on being completely hidden and only succeed if that's the case. There's a reason twoport banshee isn't standard. But thanks.
First game he could have rocked your 3rd (only minerals you had left due to nature of build) after he wiped out your army multiple times in a row yet he sat and turtled with mutalisks... curious.
Second game he sat on 4k resources as you attacked.
I'm not entirely sold on the build, but it does sound pretty interesting in theory.
Now I know why this build isn't so strong vs p, just as OP said, but, if for some godawful reason the P doesn't scout you or doesn't respond with fast colossus after FE, this could be quite powerful on a map with a wide natural.
the extra mules are interesting, the rest isn't really stable by any means and against a somewhat competent enemy the w/l should be around 1/4 (depending on map & micro)
this build has so much potential in the hands of a pro i watched the replays and was quite impressed considering he made many mistakes and still rolled over a good zerg theres so much room for change in this build too, adding medivacs, tanks, ghosts anything really
First of all props to thinking of this build but i see lots of difficulties pulling it off 1)" Most zergs will be at about 100~120 food, tops." I watched both the replays and the zerg player could easily be at 200 as well. In jungle basin he had the money but did not spend and in caverns he also had the money but was not good enough with his queen spawn larva. Still a 200 terran vs 200 zerg should be in the terran's favor, but: the problem is you stick with marine marauder. The zerg simply destroyed the bio ball with ling-bling at jungle basin but somehow refused to finish you off. He let you come back twice actually. In caverns he should have had spend his money and made his larva and killed you. 2) "7. Perhaps the most important of all, it is disguised as a very aggressive 2rax+expo or 5rax-all-in, it forces things like spinecrawlers, early banelings, etc. to slow down the zerg economy." --- Scouting! Send an overlord over your base and lo what does he see. Four OC, small army= early aggression possibility. Cant imagine you forgetting that people can scout your build and easily counter it, because as I said: Only a bio ball wont be enough as you saw at junglebasin where you got wiped out by simply bling-ling.
Overall i think it is an interesting build but not effective at its goal. The extra mules and faster scvs are great, but it leaves you very open to early attacks. Taking a third instead doing 2 base 4 OC, might get you to 200/200 as fast too and even make you stronger in the late game. Also not sticking with the bio ball would be a good idea. If you're going to 2 base, might as well take all the gasses and gets some medivacs. If the zerg was actually aggressive and harassed you with mutas, some forced stims would hurt your force pretty bad
On December 03 2010 08:48 EtherealDeath wrote: Now I know why this build isn't so strong vs p, just as OP said, but, if for some godawful reason the P doesn't scout you or doesn't respond with fast colossus after FE, this could be quite powerful on a map with a wide natural.
I know that's a lot of assumptions
Wouldn't have to respond with colossus. They could respond with just stalkers and totally piss over the terran, unless he's mass bunkered. No gas until 33 supply. Then you need enough gas to make the tech lab, let it build, then get stim, and wait for stim timing to finish. That's not having stim for a LONGGG time.
Wow, this is probably the most promising and hilarious thing posted on this forum in a while...
You should build some factories for Hellions, it is not like you need the gas so throw some factories out. It gives you a nice transition into mech after your waves of bio hurt zerg enough.
Edit: I like the concept but I think that you won't be able to get away with 4 OC. Maybe 3... I think that this is definitely a good way of thinking about TvZ atleast. :D
I just tried this for the first time and absolutley massacured a 2300 zerg (kinda bad for that level), he scouted it fairly early and tried a baneling attack on my expansion but I easily held with 3 bunkers. Then he went roach/infestor, bad move, it was a massacre. I obviously moved out before 200/200 though because I don't see what the point of waiting for that long is, once you have a 100food strong bio ball you might as well get moving
I played some 4v4's, so not quite the same, but I did more than my fair share of holding the early aggression. I never did hit 200/200, but that's because my macro is not the best, and I got dropped, and he killed like 6 rax. Other than that, I rolled through a few enemy bases with my bioball.
One really good thing I noticed: at one point, both my bases got basically all the scv's killed by simultaneous infestor play. It didn't hurt that bad. I had 4ccs to make scvs, and still made insane minerals off the mules.
Idk how practical it is for 1v1's but I have not tried it. It is a lot of fun, however.
When I saw the BO, and those CCs, it just looked HILARIOUS. But definitely legit!
Also interesting part about the oversaturation. I'm not quite sure but what you're saying seems to be that the "limit" you could say of mining the minerals from 2 bases can actually provide the same income as if you had 3 workers per mineral patch for 3.5 bases? Or are you saying that using MULEs rather than all SCVs will give you that kind of income?
Love how you incorporated a little math too.
WOW was gonna ask a question but after reading the thread about MULEs, i did not know that MULEs could mine at the same time as the SCV!!! Lol I guess I should have known o.o Well now I know what you mean by oversaturation haha.
Thanks again for sharing and for the work, I hope I will have fun with this
We tried out this build and it doesn't really work that well. If the zerg just follows the general rule of zerg and be +1 base and injects regularly he can easily keep up.
On December 03 2010 11:36 Yilar wrote: We tried out this build and it doesn't really work that well. If the zerg just follows the general rule of zerg and be +1 base and injects regularly he can easily keep up.
On December 03 2010 11:30 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: LOL DUDE I LOVE YOUR POST
When I saw the BO, and those CCs, it just looked HILARIOUS. But definitely legit!
Also interesting part about the oversaturation. I'm not quite sure but what you're saying seems to be that the "limit" you could say of mining the minerals from 2 bases can actually provide the same income as if you had 3 workers per mineral patch for 3.5 bases? Or are you saying that using MULEs rather than all SCVs will give you that kind of income?
Love how you incorporated a little math too.
WOW was gonna ask a question but after reading the thread about MULEs, i did not know that MULEs could mine at the same time as the SCV!!! Lol I guess I should have known o.o Well now I know what you mean by oversaturation haha.
Thanks again for sharing and for the work, I hope I will have fun with this
The MULES alone will give you an extra 240*4 ~960 income
I just actually watched these replays and I'm a little disappointed. Maybe you guys are high rated but those were very bad games. Did you have an agreement with him that he wouldn't do anything till 10 minutes or so?
I don't really think the 4OC openings are viable after watching your replays. I've scaled down my tests to 2-3 so that like...it works.
On December 03 2010 11:52 30to1 wrote: I just actually watched these replays and I'm a little disappointed. Maybe you guys are high rated but those were very bad games. Did you have an agreement with him that he wouldn't do anything till 10 minutes or so?
I felt very uncomfortable how he never once scouted your base after he saw your in-base OC being made and those 2 barracks. Assuming he didn't know you were doing this kind of build to begin with, he just made a bunch of banelings to counter 2 barracks worth of infantry that never came (excluding the first marine push since banelings weren't out then).
If he had scouted better, i think he could have better prepared it for himself. Then again, he did see all he needed to see with that first group of mutas and he still continued to make drones as opposed to pure army. Honestly, if I saw a group of MM that big with 1/1, I'd be a little worried if I only had a bunch of banelings. With just decent control, huge disasters can be minimized as you have done. So I think the Zerg underestimated his army vs yours.
Another thing to note, your fast OC's benefit you until the Zerg starts to get their 3rd functioning. After that, it just falls back to standard play. So if your first 200 push fails, I don't see you coming back out of that since those MULEs sped up the mining process faster than it really should be, depleting your minerals faster. I guess that could have been avoided temporarily if you had established another base before you went to attack because your main was fairly mined out at that point.
This almost seems like a viable build except for the fact that the replays are pretty much garbage. Zerg doesnt scout at all, FE's late, has no ovies watching for any kind of push. I refuse to believe that any serious effort went into the zerg's play (at least on Jungle Basin; didnt watch the second game). Didnt try to backdoor or put any kind of pressure on.
The payoff takes too long for Mass OC to ramp up before zerg feels like straight up destroying you.
Did some testing as zerg, with rather unimpressive macro and about 20 larva invested into zerglings around the 25 food mark I was able to have about 50 banelings, lots and 8 infestors (with gland) out by the 13 minute mark. I had 4 hatcheries up but only 2 saturated, working on the 3rd. Creep was rolled out to the middle of the map. My total food was about 130, which was what you expected.
So probably 66 food of drones, 25 food banelings, 16 food of infestors and the remainder was virtually all zerglings.
I'd feel pretty comfortable fending off hordes of marines with 50 banelings and 8 full energy infestors.. At least enough to keep my other bases defended from that push.
I don't understand how you expect to macro up a 200/200 army immediately though. Even on 16 rax that's 16 food every 25 seconds.. I'll assume something more like 20 rax... So you need 8 prod cycles which is 200 seconds... And you can't start building until the rest of your shit dies...
Obviously you'll have a second push ready within 3 minutes, but a zerg can mass quite a bit of stuff in 3 minutes.
I'm not saying the build is unviable, i don't think it would be a gimme for the zerg in any fashion. Probably the best thing to do against it is baneling drops trying to pick off mules, or fast tech to zergling brood lord... But you wouldn't know that from the early scout so i don't think hive tech would arrive in time.
On December 03 2010 14:19 DuneBug wrote: Did some testing as zerg, with rather unimpressive macro and about 20 larva invested into zerglings around the 25 food mark I was able to have about 50 banelings, lots and 8 infestors (with gland) out by the 13 minute mark. I had 4 hatcheries up but only 2 saturated, working on the 3rd. Creep was rolled out to the middle of the map. My total food was about 130, which was what you expected.
So probably 66 food of drones, 25 food banelings, 16 food of infestors and the remainder was virtually all zerglings.
I'd feel pretty comfortable fending off hordes of marines with 50 banelings and 8 full energy infestors.. At least enough to keep my other bases defended from that push.
I don't understand how you expect to macro up a 200/200 army immediately though. Even on 16 rax that's 16 food every 25 seconds.. I'll assume something more like 20 rax... So you need 8 prod cycles which is 200 seconds... And you can't start building until the rest of your shit dies...
Obviously you'll have a second push ready within 3 minutes, but a zerg can mass quite a bit of stuff in 3 minutes.
I'm not saying the build is unviable, i don't think it would be a gimme for the zerg in any fashion. Probably the best thing to do against it is baneling drops trying to pick off mules, or fast tech to zergling brood lord... But you wouldn't know that from the early scout so i don't think hive tech would arrive in time.
Its really a 140/200 army (60 food goes to SCVs), to replenish 140 food, its not INSTANT, obviously, but it'll let Terran have re-plenish macro thats almost as fast as zerg. Zerg, hands-down, has the fastest re-army speed of any race.
This is pretty strong. It def plays itself off as an early aggression build, you need ladder replays though. You also need replays vs better zergs. I will do this build vs some teammates and post but I think scouting makes this really easy for the zerg. as soon as he sees this hes obviously not going to go muta, and will switch to bling / festor. when this happens I think even though the zerg (food wise) is behind. His units can be cost effective enough to kill the army. I guess if you scout you can go more marader heavy.. but I just think bling // infestor after scouting this is too easy..
So post replays as you get them, I will try to upload some as well.
But I do think that it's very good in TvZ or really any matchup to get a lot of OCs, because it's so important to keep production up, or you will lose late game. I think terran will evolve into getting an OC at his third and maybe even fourth (depending on map) expansion as well and just relying on good map sense and maybe 1 or 2 sensor towers to protect them. And because you need a lot of scans later in the game to not lose the fight because of position that already burns into your mules.
Planetary Fortresses are imbalanced if they are attacked, but even then they aren't even that good if they are not repaired, and pretty much every race has ways to kill PFs without taking too much damage (even with something like roaches, if it's not repaired (cause of blings) and there are 15+ roaches the PF maybe barely kills stuff worth its costs) I don't like Planetary Fortresses at all, they suck and they are not nearly as versatile as OCs. Imo they are just used because everyone is lazy and because way back in the beta people started to attack PFs without a plan and lost 100 supply because it got repaired, but the amount of money you need to secure an expansion just as good as a PF would do is provided by an OC with mules in about 3-4 minutes.
2k diamond terran here. I played around with this build today and here are a few quick thoughts.
1. Holy macro batman, you get an insane income with all the OCs. Its legitimately hard to spend all your money late game with this build.
2. You still have to build a lot of supply depots. While early game, CCs make great replacements for depots, late game it doesn't work since your supply is increasing too fast and CCs take too long to make.
3. Late midgame/lategame you basically have maphacks. Soo many scans
4. I've adapted the build a little and it can work against toss on maps with narrow chokes to the natural (LT and steps)
I still have a lot more testing to do to see if this is viable vs high diamond players on a regular basis but my initial feeling is if you can time the transitions and hit important timings, this build could be pretty strong.
I tested this build out a couple of times this afternoon too. It feels really too unsafe at the start though, as with any other time you're powering stuff. Early aggression hurts so soo much. Bunkers pretty much needed unless your opponent is totally not interested in attacking at all.
It is hilarious when it works though Zerging the zerg for a change feels pretty nice.
Point to note though for people wanting to try this, you might want to float your 3rd and 4th to other expos at your second 200/200 attack because that's when your minerals start running out, if indeed you're only attack at max army
So much scrub theory-craft in this thread. Nothing ever works against someone who knows exactly what you're doing who is decent. Instead of just proclaiming that its bad any decent zerg could counter it. Go try it out and then if you get beaten by decent zergs come and cry. It seems like a decent economic cheese to me. I watched the second replay, your opponent wasn't the best but you owned him thoroughly despite your own similarly imperfect play.
I've often pondered why there seems to be some sort of gap in logic in the way people think of building SCVs. This is how it is now: If you're taking an early expo and want to play in a macro-oriented way, you'll want to keep making SCVs out of both orbital commands almost constantly if you can, right? Because that gives you good income. And it's a horrible situation to be in if you're behind on workers.
But soon as someone mentions that maybe it's worth making a extra OC for even faster saturation, some folks go crazy and get angry. Who decided that the arbitrary formula of "make 1 worker at a time per base, and no faster than that" is the optimal way of doing things?
As a zerg I'm watching this type of play coming up with great interest. Surely there's situations or builds where the terran can flip the tables and go "If you don't pressure ME, I'll make a shitload of SCVs instead"
jungle basin game was a joke. After he owned ur army at 19 mins there was no reason not to push.
I'm really not convinced by this strategy..
Ret can max after 14 mins with zerg without.
All this does is it gets terran to max faster, but at the cost of the late game -> if the push fails u should essentially lose (the fact u didnt in the reps is moot)
Is this a joke or serious? This build is retarded and it works in theory versus Silver and Bronze players. We will never see something this retarded in any real games. This build can be countered hard by so many blind openings zerg and protoss have its not even funny.
On December 04 2010 00:23 SKaREO wrote: Is this a joke or serious? This build is retarded and it works in theory versus Silver and Bronze players. We will never see something this retarded in any real games. This build can be countered hard by so many blind openings zerg and protoss have its not even funny.
Tanks don't 1 shot Zerglings right? But if you get +1 attack for tanks they do one shot zerglings? Is there a good place where I can get the calculations on this?
On December 04 2010 00:34 MisterPuppy wrote: just curious about the upgrades in this build....
Tanks don't 1 shot Zerglings right? But if you get +1 attack for tanks they do one shot zerglings? Is there a good place where I can get the calculations on this?
I don't even have to watch the replay of this zerg on jungle basin to know he's probably a lot better than people are giving him credit for. Go watch your own replays and see how many mistakes you make... kids who aren't even diamond come in here and talk about how bad 2300 zergs are. I'm sure he doesn't look like the guys in the GSL but then again, neither do your replays.
I'm a low Terran player and I used this build late last night to try it out vs a Random player on ladder, unfortunately he was P but it was still very fun to play around with. The P is around 1400 I believe, I work a fuckload so I can't dedicate a lot of time to SC2 therefore I'm only around 700.
Regardless heres the replay vs P using collossus, obviously with all strats posted not many of them can be used as successfully as the poster lays them out.
You could have won the first game doing just about anything, the Zerg was an idiot. What 2.3k Zerg doesn't even try to scout you for 11 minutes? I quit watching in disgust at that point.
I've played against Griffith many times (he's an IRL friend of mine), and he is a LOT better than his ladder rank gives him credit for. His apm and mechanics are not that fantastic, but his game sense and the refinements of his builds are. I am a protoss player so I can't really play him to test this build, but I wouldn't discredit it right away.
Here's my question:
1) How does this fair against a very aggressive 2 base zerg. A/roach/baneling/speedling 2 base bust that is timed to occur when you're throwing down your 3rd OC? Seems to me that you should have a dip in production when you start massing OC's. This should be quickly recovered, but if you screw up even a little bit in your early marine pressure, you could be facing more than you can handle in a certain timing window. 2) How does this fair against an infestor stall that allows the zerg to get 3-4 bases up quickly? I know you have early rax to pressure with, and the mules should give you an income advantage so long as your main doesn't get mined out, but with only barracks units, it's conceivable that the zerg could stall with well placed infestors and defend with lings and speed roaches, provided they have good creep spread. 3) If your 200/200 push fails for whatever reason, aren't you screwed since your main is mined out thanks to mass mules anyway and a quick counter will probably crush your newly acquired 3rd? 4) If you're on an island map, why not use one of the OC's to take an island 3rd? Like on LT or Scrap.
EDIT: call me if you want to do a variation of this against my protoss! I can also try to play zerg but you know I'm only like 1000ish points skill level with zerg.
I don't think the First replay shows what your trying to do really, sure you get 200/200 quickly but your producing 4 scvs at a time.
Beyond that everything looks pretty funny, makes me wish to play terran.
Do you have a replay, or have you experimented with limiting the scv count? Cause 69 + 4 mules seems way way unnecessary for two base. Specifically the scv production from 4 CCs just looks wrong.
This looks soo good, like an economic cheese of sorts. You need to rename this the: Maximum Overdrive Build. Would Be so cool if you move out at 200/200 and in the text chat go [yourname]: Has activated Maximum Overdrive!! Shit tons of potential, especially considering you can land those OC's anywhere on the map and just spam 20 mules mine a shit ton of minerals and move elsewhere. Its not too broken because zerg can just mass expo, so he can refood to 200/200 in one production cycle, and toss can mass expo too and EVERYTHING will be chronoed all the time. Of course Terran's are the best for this because of the crazy income provided.
1)After your 4th OC, throw down 3 bunkers at your expansion IMMEDIATELY or risk getting overrun while your throwing down raxs getting production ramped up.
2) Don't attack until 200 food, i attacked one game at about 135 and I got rolled by mass bling/ling muta and I realized that it was because his army was not significantly smaller as I had not given my economy lead enough time to really make a difference. I was going off 9 rax and I wasnt able to produce fast enough to overwhelm the zerg (even tho I took a 3rd during my first push) then the zerg (who was on 3 bases, 2 saturated).
3) I don't know if this is good or bad but I produce scvs off all 4 CCs until I have 60 or so. Maybe this is against the build as its supposed to have more food for units??
Definitely don't get thors, thats terrible advice, marines rape mutas, more mutas means less blings, infestors means your more likely gonna win, you WANT them to make mutas.
for some reason I can imagine this working on scrap station or delta quadrant. will try it out vs zergs on ladder after practicing macro on single player
I'm not going to argue that Mules aren't broken (I think most of the balance issues stem for the Mule collection rate being slightly too high), but these replays are laughably bad.
In the game on Jungle Basin, zerg blindly drones to 28(!) without once scouting the 2-raxing terran. Seriously? He's then already behind after the 5 marine push, and you could win quickly from there by just continuing normally into MMM.
And the scouting doesn't get any better from there - zerg hasn't seen anything but the front of terran's base until the 12 minute mark.
The micro throughout the game is woeful too. At the 19 minute mark, terran literally walks his entire army into an open field surrounded by banelings. I swear, I've never seen anything like it in diamond. Terran's supply actually drops from 190 to 111 in the space of 10 seconds.
But of course, rather than just going and winning the game at this point, zerg waits until terran is maxed again. Game over for zerg now, right? Nope, terran proceeds to get roflstomped again. And again. And again. Finally zerg is left with 6 attacking units, so terran manages to eke out a win. :|
If you're going to engage in this kind of theory-crafting, you need to back it up with something convincing. Terran frankly should have lost this game against anyone playing competently.
On December 04 2010 03:50 farseerdk wrote: I've played against Griffith many times (he's an IRL friend of mine), and he is a LOT better than his ladder rank gives him credit for. His apm and mechanics are not that fantastic, but his game sense and the refinements of his builds are. I am a protoss player so I can't really play him to test this build, but I wouldn't discredit it right away.
Here's my question:
1) How does this fair against a very aggressive 2 base zerg. A/roach/baneling/speedling 2 base bust that is timed to occur when you're throwing down your 3rd OC? Seems to me that you should have a dip in production when you start massing OC's. This should be quickly recovered, but if you screw up even a little bit in your early marine pressure, you could be facing more than you can handle in a certain timing window. 2) How does this fair against an infestor stall that allows the zerg to get 3-4 bases up quickly? I know you have early rax to pressure with, and the mules should give you an income advantage so long as your main doesn't get mined out, but with only barracks units, it's conceivable that the zerg could stall with well placed infestors and defend with lings and speed roaches, provided they have good creep spread. 3) If your 200/200 push fails for whatever reason, aren't you screwed since your main is mined out thanks to mass mules anyway and a quick counter will probably crush your newly acquired 3rd? 4) If you're on an island map, why not use one of the OC's to take an island 3rd? Like on LT or Scrap.
EDIT: call me if you want to do a variation of this against my protoss! I can also try to play zerg but you know I'm only like 1000ish points skill level with zerg.
1) I've been baneling busted and 7RRed/5RR all-ined, I can hold it 80% of the time. The early marine pressure is sort of a "fake" move, designed to make the zerg think 5rax allin or 2rax/expo as it looks the exact same. But yes, there is a weak point at around 6-7 minutes, and bunkers will be needed 2) Infestors are so gas intensive, MM is tough against infestors, so I try to add in tanks. Remember, Zerg needs to be on four bases to have the same level of mineral income. So its kinda OK if he's on 4. Infestors/Blings are a huge problem, hence the mech variant is more feasible. 3) Usually we take an expo while moving out 4) LT/Scrap station are definite good choices, DQ is another one as it has an easy 3rd
1) I've been baneling busted and 7RRed/5RR all-ined, I can hold it 80% of the time. The early marine pressure is sort of a "fake" move, designed to make the zerg think 5rax allin or 2rax/expo as it looks the exact same. But yes, there is a weak point at around 6-7 minutes, and bunkers will be needed 2) Infestors are so gas intensive, MM is tough against infestors, so I try to add in tanks. Remember, Zerg needs to be on four bases to have the same level of mineral income. So its kinda OK if he's on 4. Infestors/Blings are a huge problem, hence the mech variant is more feasible. 3) Usually we take an expo while moving out 4) LT/Scrap station are definite good choices, DQ is another one as it has an easy 3rd
What's cool about this is you can send out strong squads to each of your opponent's 3 expansions, and yes he might be able to stop one with his army, but won't be able to stop all 3 at the same time since you have a higher army count compared to his droning.
On December 04 2010 07:07 Griffith` wrote: get 1 or 2 thors
It is generally inefficient to get large numbers of mutas, mutas are not damage dealers, they are mainly harassers.
On December 04 2010 07:18 statikg wrote: Definitely don't get thors, thats terrible advice, marines rape mutas, more mutas means less blings, infestors means your more likely gonna win, you WANT them to make mutas.
Sorry, but as a Zerg player, I have to side with Griffith on this one.
1-2 Thor's is always a good investment. They win vs everything on the ground except lings (which they still kill 1 per 1.38 seconds, not too shabby, but not worth the Thor cost)
you can further supplement the Thors with some SCVs since you have 4 OCs and 8 SCVs costs you literally 34 seconds of unit production time. 2 Thors and 8 SCVs adds so much sexy to anything you want to do it's hard for them to not be good.
Going for mass amounts of Thors may not be viable, but 2 is always worth it.
Do Overseer's contaminate prevent OC's from calling in mules? If so, there's a really simple Z response to this build. I don't think it does, but it's worth throwing out there; I almost never contaminate an OC, so I'm unsure, even as a midrange Diamond Player.
On December 04 2010 08:14 hizBALLIN wrote: Do Overseer's contaminate prevent OC's from calling in mules? If so, there's a really simple Z response to this build. I don't think it does, but it's worth throwing out there; I almost never contaminate an OC, so I'm unsure, even as a midrange Diamond Player.
Mule energys still get stored up though, so it doesn't really matter if i'm stalled for one volley of MULEs. And having a huge number of marines in base will make it tough for your overseer.
On December 04 2010 07:18 statikg wrote: Definitely don't get thors, thats terrible advice, marines rape mutas, more mutas means less blings, infestors means your more likely gonna win, you WANT them to make mutas.
Sorry, but as a Zerg player, I have to side with Griffith on this one.
1-2 Thor's is always a good investment. They win vs everything on the ground except lings (which they still kill 1 per 1.38 seconds, not too shabby, but not worth the Thor cost)
you can further supplement the Thors with some SCVs since you have 4 OCs and 8 SCVs costs you literally 34 seconds of unit production time. 2 Thors and 8 SCVs adds so much sexy to anything you want to do it's hard for them to not be good.
Going for mass amounts of Thors may not be viable, but 2 is always worth it.
This is incredibly one dimensional thought, yes maybe a thor is always worth it versus mutas, but is all the infrastructure worth it in a build that depends on 2 gas gotten at 30 supply? No, you need all that gas for reactors/techlabs/upgrades at first and then maybe later on you COULD add a thor, maybe for your second push but that would make your army damn immobile, and since this build depends on macroing up a giant army before the zerg can get enough units, that extra walk time could easily break the build.
On December 04 2010 08:14 hizBALLIN wrote: Do Overseer's contaminate prevent OC's from calling in mules? If so, there's a really simple Z response to this build. I don't think it does, but it's worth throwing out there; I almost never contaminate an OC, so I'm unsure, even as a midrange Diamond Player.
To anyone descrediting this build, you probably haven't played alot of TvZ. As someone who does, I feel like this build is very feasible as I do a variation of it just about every game vs Zerg. The power of OC really is undervalued and I always get amazed at people who play TvZ (and even TvP) like in SC1. Ill do a lengthier post describing my experiences when I get home since Im on my phone right now.
If a zerg player sacs an overlord and sees multiple OC's and responds by mass expanding (double expand after natural, possibly to a gold), is there a way to attack more quickly with a smaller army to deny a quick 3rd/4th?
On December 03 2010 05:40 Saechiis wrote: Hahaha, just watched the replay on Xel'Naga.
No way that's a 2.3k Zerg. He never scouted you after seeing the initial 2 rax and just started to blindly pump banelings off 2 base and proceeded to not do anything with them till you attacked him with a maxed bio army. He never even scouted you had expanded and had 5 orbital commands lol.
His macro also kinda sucked, after he threw all his banelings into your bio (and for some reason he moved them along with the muta's so the mutalisks didn't even attack) he had 3k 2k in minerals and gas saved up but no larvae to spend them on since he never used larvae spit.
Long story short, if he had rolled all those banelings he had built into your bases you would've died. If they were roaches you also would've died, if he had expanded for every command center you made you also would've died.
It's just economic cheese.
LOL!!! Well Put! At any rate though it souds like a fun build.
On December 04 2010 09:24 farseerdk wrote: If a zerg player sacs an overlord and sees multiple OC's and responds by mass expanding (double expand after natural, possibly to a gold), is there a way to attack more quickly with a smaller army to deny a quick 3rd/4th?
Tried this a few times, at around the time which you are getting stimpack there is a timing window that when if you are all in'd you probably cant hold. Right after stimpack is finished and you have about 8 raxs you can probably have a few harrassing groups easily.
I think that it doesn't matter if zerg takes a 3rd and a 4th because in my experience he doesn't nearly have the larva to even saturate the 3rd as he needs to use it all for unit production to defend the push. Maybe if he sacced an OL really early and figured it out while the CCs were being built he would be able to do so I'm not sure...but if he did that then maybe he would be better off making a bunch of roaches and pushing you at the weak point? Anyway I usually scatter a few marines around the outskirts of my base to try to ward off exactly that scenario.
On December 04 2010 09:24 farseerdk wrote: If a zerg player sacs an overlord and sees multiple OC's and responds by mass expanding (double expand after natural, possibly to a gold), is there a way to attack more quickly with a smaller army to deny a quick 3rd/4th?
You can pump out a huge number of marines off your 6 raxes and start an early pressure at 75 to 100 food at as early as 9 minutes. Remember zerg will have been hit by a 5 marine push at around 5:00, this 5 marines will also be able to deny any early overlord scouting to prevent seeing the 4OC. Your fourth 4th CC is placed at around 5:30 and finishes at around 7:00. Meaning realistically, the Zerg would have to sac Overlords to see the 4OCs at around 5:30 and double expand at between 6 to 8 minutes. If he starts the expos at 6:00, he won't finish the hatcheries until 7:40.
You have at least around 15-25 marines already at 8:00 (from the production off of the 2rax). At 8:30 minutes the Terran already has 6 raxes churning out marines non-stop. I think the timing is too dangerous for the zerg to double expand. Taking a 2nd expo seems feasible, but 3rd seems impossible. Again, even taking a 2nd expo doesn't even come close to 2200 minerals/min.
I love how 2300 zerg doesn't look like he could even reach 2300 D+ iccup. Are there any reps of this being played in the wild against more solid players? Though I suppose it is kinda tough considering even quite silly builds can win if its the first time the opponent has ever seen it. Oh, and you really should produce fewer scvs. Considering how late your third is and how quickly you deplete your main you don't need 70+ scvs when you move out. That money should be used to create a stronger 200/200 push. And is it really difficult to tech a bit during this time? In one of those games you didn't even mine gas from your natural so it seems as if you aren't even trying to take advantage of supporting tech options.
On December 04 2010 10:26 numLoCK wrote: I love how 2300 zerg doesn't look like he could even reach 2300 D+ iccup. Are there any reps of this being played in the wild against more solid players? Though I suppose it is kinda tough considering even quite silly builds can win if its the first time the opponent has ever seen it. Oh, and you really should produce fewer scvs. Considering how late your third is and how quickly you deplete your main you don't need 70+ scvs when you move out. That money should be used to create a stronger 200/200 push. And is it really difficult to tech a bit during this time? In one of those games you didn't even mine gas from your natural so it seems as if you aren't even trying to take advantage of supporting tech options.
That zerg did not hotkey one unit the entire game.
I can't believe people are still surprised how bad some people are at 2000 Diamond. If you play enough games, you will get there. You don't lose as many points as you win, and Battle.net forces you to get 50% winrate. So for simplicities' sake, for example, if you gain 2 points for every win, and lose 1 point for every loss, you'll get 10 points every 10 games @ 50% win rate. 20 points every 20 games, etc. There are thousands of people out there with hundreds of games making that possible.
I would love to see this strategy against a zerg player who does more than play Sim City. In both replays, it was the same zerg player, who did not bother to scout until he had mutalisks around 12 minutes. Furthermore, this awful zerg player kept all his lings, banelings and mutas in one control group, so that while he was positioning the banelings with move commands, the rest of his army didn't attack either.
Are these matches fixed? Is this zerg player purposely playing really stupidly so that he gets owned by a simple mass MM push and can't beat it with ling/bane/muta? He didn't get melee/armor upgrades either btw, while you did, so of course you rolled him.
for the "he didnt' scout" part, wtf do you mean he didn't scout, he saw the 2rax+expo (he had another ovie on the edge of my expo). He didn't KNOW about the 4OC build, no zerg currently expects that, why would he feel the need to sac an ovie when he already sees 2rax expand. So for all he knows, and for ANY good zerg, thats enough information to know you have to make an assload of blings/infestors. He took his 3rd at around 9minutes, which is ample fast and standard for high-level zerg.
Also, you put blings/lings in one control group so you can SURROUND with the lings and blings as well as maximize muta damage.
Seriously I'm starting to feel that some of you are either trolling or are in bronze.
To all the Diamond 1k+ zergs players who are complaining. Add me on Griffith.583 (US) and we'll play a few games so you can give me your inputs directly.
On December 04 2010 10:26 numLoCK wrote: I love how 2300 zerg doesn't look like he could even reach 2300 D+ iccup. Are there any reps of this being played in the wild against more solid players? Though I suppose it is kinda tough considering even quite silly builds can win if its the first time the opponent has ever seen it. Oh, and you really should produce fewer scvs. Considering how late your third is and how quickly you deplete your main you don't need 70+ scvs when you move out. That money should be used to create a stronger 200/200 push. And is it really difficult to tech a bit during this time? In one of those games you didn't even mine gas from your natural so it seems as if you aren't even trying to take advantage of supporting tech options.
I'm making a replay pack as we speak, esp against ones where zerg tries to early roach rush. I find 5rr + reinforced roaches requires 2 additional bunkers to be placed down, luckily 5rr is also easily scouted and you can react to it fast enough.
I've noted the weakness in pure MM, so I added a mech transistion as well that takes advantage of the 4 gases.
On December 04 2010 11:40 mango_destroyer wrote: Can we get replays of this NOT working? I didn`t check the first 2 but I assume it was a winning effort.
Hey I've posted two replays against a TLer doing all-in RRs. it was done of steppes of war, the short rush distance makes the roach rush even more potent.
the first one was done very well by him and I lost. the second replay was an adaption using the mech transition
this build is great in theory, however, terrible in implementation much like communism or facism. furthermore, you assume your opponent doesn't scout (like in the replay you posted) not to mention it can be wrecked by a multitude of builds:
kyrix style sling bling 7roach rush too lazy to think of more off the top of my head.
On December 04 2010 13:00 majestouch wrote: this build is great in theory, however, terrible in implementation much like communism or facism. furthermore, you assume your opponent doesn't scout (like in the replay you posted) not to mention it can be wrecked by a multitude of builds:
kyrix style sling bling 7roach rush too lazy to think of more off the top of my head.
The build definitely has potential to be amazing. I've been watching SMI team members do it all night, and when done by a great player, it's really much more solid than one might thing. There really isn't any build that doesn't have weaknesses, and I really don't think anyone intelligent in this thread is arguing to the contrary.
Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out: 1-base baneling bust. Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play). 4-gate Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion) vs Terran(?)
I'm out today, could anyone do this build with banshee/marine combo? I believe the rate of marine production makes medivacs unnecessary and the added initial damage from banshees will be crazy.
On December 04 2010 13:23 Bixs wrote: What I dont understand is why not apply pressure as soon as the economy kicks in? Why sit on your ass building 16 raxs and making 200 food army?
You don't have to sit on your ass, but your rate of production is so fast that you will produce faster than the zerg. In fact, if the zerg is trying to stabilize a 3rd or try to take a 4th, its almost better to push at 100 or 150 food. I
That said, some units, like siege tanks, really need to hit a critical mass (4-5) to be really effective and would ideally have the +1 weapons upgrade. You really want stimpack, marine shields, and 1/1 to be done, and i find that by the time they finish, its already around 120-150 food.
On December 04 2010 13:19 Cryosin wrote: Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out: 1-base baneling bust. Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play). 4-gate Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion) vs Terran(?)
I dont' recommend doing this against protoss mainly because stalkers w/ blink will make your wall-in kinda useless. Btw do you know the timings for economy roach push? I've done it against 5rr/7rr which is when the CCs are going up and I've managed to defend against it.
This is brilliant, and really showcases the untapped power behind MULES. However, you were practically mined out by the 20 min mark. If that last push hadnt won the game, you probably wouldnt have been able to keep up the production from all those raxes.
Also, be careful about overstimming without medivac support. Theres no need to stim to take out a hatchery when you can't heal back up.
Been practicing it, and it is potentially very strong against zerg. Gotta watch out for econ baneling builds. Mass infestor doesn't do much against this mass bio ball since you're constantly reinforcing off of 10 rax. 2 bunker defends well against a roach rush. Muta harass is basically useless against this build since you can throw up a million turrets. Gonna start practicing with the factories to be able to push out with defense against banelings. Still learning the timings though, and its pretty cool having to reorient everything I learned about being terran with being able to outmacro zerg. If nothing else, thumbs up to both the OP of this and the other mass OC thread for an original approach.
10 Supply Depot 12 Rax (make marines) 14 Rax (make marines, once you make 5 marines send them to the enemy ASAP, you want to deal damage, exchange supply with zerg) --> I might wanna throw up bunkers with marines if Z go roaches/fast counter with lings, and delay OC a bit 15 OC 16 Supply Depot 22 CC 27 CC 27 Supply Depot (SD is built AFTER CC because we should have been able to free 5 supply from the 5 marine rush) 31 CC 33 Gas 33 Gas
Once CCs are finished, convert into orbital commands. Take only your natural, dont bother taking your 3rd until you have 200/200
MM(+M) Transition:
Marine Marauder is an extremely strong transition as it has a relatively low gas dependence, and is thus, mineral-bound. IE. you only get 2 out of the 4 geysers. Marauders can tank Banelings like a boss. Your goal is to immediately make the equivalent of a 20 rax. eg. while adding in two engineering bays. You can feel free to send in waves at 60 food, 100 food, and 150 food, it will keep the zerg on his feet.
The following 6 things are important: 1. Take Expo and put up Bunkers at expo, transfer workers, constant MULEs. 2. Set up turrets at base and expo to prevent muta harass. 3. Research Stim, Marine Shield, +1 weapons upgrade, +1 armor upgrade. EDIT: and concussive shells (thanks for the replies). Keep up those upgrades!! 4. If he has a heavy heavy roach or baneling army, increase marauders ratio to 1:1. 5. On your way out, move another OC and secure your third with your humongous army 6. Your 200/200 army is PERSISTENT, meaning it can replenish it self extremely fast (within minutes). It's almost an aggressive "300-food army" , as coined by day9.
What this gives you:
13-14 Minute Push (12:30 provided you have perfect macro):
Wow. Nice job. Your creativity made my day. I can see this will be a very strong push, and if I got beaten back by some Zerg miracle, I'll add in Medivacs and Tanks for contain and drops.
Anyway, patiently waiting more opinions and feedback on viability against Protoss.
On December 04 2010 13:19 Cryosin wrote: Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out: 1-base baneling bust. Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play). 4-gate Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion) vs Terran(?)
I dont' recommend doing this against protoss mainly because stalkers w/ blink will make your wall-in kinda useless. Btw do you know the timings for economy roach push? I've done it against 5rr/7rr which is when the CCs are going up and I've managed to defend against it.
Not just blink stalkers. Nearly any kind of 1 base aggression from a Protoss would crush this. 3gate robo with a quick immortal can just bust down the depot wall. 3 gate stargate would be less dangerous but also powerful if your opponent is smart enough to use a phoenix to spot onto the high ground for warpgates. An ordinary 4 gate is scoutable but would require 2 bunkers to defend, i'm quite sure. You'd shut down a DT opening fairly okay, since you'll probably have at least one OC with enough for scan (or close to it).
Also, since this build doesn't get anywhere near raven tech, it's pretty easy to obs scout this build and MM is highly highly vulnerable to storm. HT + FF = win against MM. 12.30 is enough time to get either several ranged colossus or storm out, both of which would win against a pure MM army, even with a significant food count disadvantage.
I would have to test the timings but mass expanding also seems like a viable way to counter this as protoss.
On December 04 2010 13:19 Cryosin wrote: Hey man dont listen to people telling you this build "sucks" or "is vulnerable".
The people on this forum dont care unless a "pro player" did it. I mentioned how you could have a 200/200 supply army doing this kind of stuff in 14 minutes, even less with tweaking. You clearly proved that not only was i right but you could narrow it down a few minutes less.
The people in the original in-base CC thread where calling me retarded and a liar and what have you, as if "economy stacking" to get a big army by 14 minutes is impossible or something.
Please send us more and more replays.
Here is what i think you might have some trouble against so i recommend you test these out: 1-base baneling bust. Economy Roach push(2-base roach/hydra play). 4-gate Standard Protoss play (2-gate robo + expansion) vs Terran(?)
I dont' recommend doing this against protoss mainly because stalkers w/ blink will make your wall-in kinda useless. Btw do you know the timings for economy roach push? I've done it against 5rr/7rr which is when the CCs are going up and I've managed to defend against it.
Not just blink stalkers. Nearly any kind of 1 base aggression from a Protoss would crush this. 3gate robo with a quick immortal can just bust down the depot wall. 3 gate stargate would be less dangerous but also powerful if your opponent is smart enough to use a phoenix to spot onto the high ground for warpgates. An ordinary 4 gate is scoutable but would require 2 bunkers to defend, i'm quite sure. You'd shut down a DT opening fairly okay, since you'll probably have at least one OC with enough for scan (or close to it).
Also, since this build doesn't get anywhere near raven tech, it's pretty easy to obs scout this build and MM is highly highly vulnerable to storm. HT + FF = win against MM. 12.30 is enough time to get either several ranged colossus or storm out, both of which would win against a pure MM army, even with a significant food count disadvantage.
I would have to test the timings but mass expanding also seems like a viable way to counter this as protoss.
+1, early game protoss aggression is quite dangerous unless there's some form of marauder w/stim or concshells tech. Both of which requires gas, and which delays the extra CCs significantly. TvP lategame is not the same as TvZ late game. Protoss late game units are just sooo cost effective against bioballs (which is what the vast majority of mineral needs to be dumped into). You can't spread marines/bioballs against storm/HT nearly as efffectively as you can against banelings.
This is pretty awesome. I came into this thread thinking "oh great, another guy who thinks he invented something trying to name a build after himself."
But this is really innovative, and even if it doesn't pan out in the long run, it's better to have tried something new and brought it to TL than to just practice the same old builds. Can't wait to try it myself when off-racing.
If nothing else, if it becomes commonplace, it forces zerg to sac an early Overlord to confirm whether or not it is a 2 Rax Aggro, 2 Rax Expand, or 4 CC Macro, and make them really nervous if you snipe their Overlord before they can get far into your base with the scout.
Tried it for fun... Worked pretty well lol. I think it works well on shakuras since you can float orbitals over to nearby expo sites. Maxed out at like 14minish (forget the time) then just mass rallied marines/marauders/medivacs against zerg. I'm ~2800 terran
This seems pretty good if zerg doesn't go early aggression, otherwise I think it's a little too fragile to be used regularly. Maybe this could be pulled off in certain situations such as playing a player like IdrA on cross positions in a big map like Shakuras Plateau. However, the concept of staying on 2 base but with multiple OCs intrigues me.
Now, I may be only in silver and don't have as good of an understanding of the finer points of strategy as some of you but I think the concept of using multiple OCs to boost economy could be used to address some of Terran's mobility issues once zerg gets on 3+ bases with lots of creep spread. Let's say you opt for a bio heavy army early on and you just can't seem to stay even on zerg. Obviously to keep up, you'd want to take some expansions of your own, but since your army is bio heavy there's a great chance they'll go muta/ling/bling maybe some infestor. They have the mobility to keep up with zerg somewhat, but they have to be spread really thinly the longer the game progresses, which makes mech more attractive since they're very effective against zerg. However, switching to mech puts you in an awkward position against zerg as they have good map control at this point and mech is very immobile. This immobility would make expansions harder to defend thus making a heavy mech composition less attractive. Howver, multiple OCs on only 2 bases allows you to boost your economy while giving you an easier to defend position.
Obviously, this is a very very rough idea at the moment as it was something that I thought of on the spot after reading a few posts in this thread. Perhaps we could come up with an effective way to take the multiple OC eco boost concept and incorporate it into the TvZ metagame?
Well, seeing as this build is vulnerable to sling/bling, would it really hurt you that much to get up enough gas for a factory for Hellions with or without blue flame? Perhaps even incorporate a pre-200/200 harass attack on an expansion?
On December 04 2010 16:56 Conrose wrote: Well, seeing as this build is vulnerable to sling/bling, would it really hurt you that much to get up enough gas for a factory for Hellions with or without blue flame? Perhaps even incorporate a pre-200/200 harass attack on an expansion?
There's two transitions, pure MM(+M) , or Hellion/Tank/MM. If you are uncomfortable microing that many MM, the Hellion/Tank/MM transition works just as well, if not deadlier, though ableit, slower.
You can definitely attack pre-200/200 as shown in IronClad vs DukeWu's game (btw, NICE game and macro!). I saw you send countless MM waves, it was hilarious watching him burn through your marines with blings and you just come right back to his expos NP like a boss.
On December 04 2010 16:56 Conrose wrote: Well, seeing as this build is vulnerable to sling/bling, would it really hurt you that much to get up enough gas for a factory for Hellions with or without blue flame? Perhaps even incorporate a pre-200/200 harass attack on an expansion?
There's two transitions, pure MM(+M) , or Hellion/Tank/MM. If you are uncomfortable microing that many MM, the Hellion/Tank/MM transition works just as well, if not deadlier, though ableit, slower.
You can definitely attack pre-200/200 as shown in IronClad vs DukeWu's game (btw, NICE game and macro!). I saw you send countless MM waves, it was hilarious watching him burn through your marines with blings and you just come right back to his expos NP like a boss.
I just saw the replay and found that same thing hilarious, it essentially was 4 Base Terran vs 2 Base Zerg before even calculating the Oversaturation gains.
couldnt this build be used against 2 gate play or robo play? obviously 4 gate and 6gate as well as 3 gate tech could hurt, but the popular concensus is that terran beats p early game. a flash of what he thinks is 2 or 3 rax would lead him to play defensively, allowing you to reap benefits.
essentially what my point is is that perhaps this build cou deal quite well against protoss on maps with and natural like jubgle basin or delta quadrant and with colossus play - 2 geysers is enough to sustain pure mm but getting 4 from 2 base would allow you to easily pump vikings. ghost play could also transition very easily.
actually theres no way the idea behind this build couldnt be developed for vT or vP. I understand maybe not this exact build but the idea that 'minerals are worthless is vP and what is the deciding factor in vP is gas' sounds wrong and would to greater imbalances if true.
I really like this build. I've done it several times versus very hard AI (I know that is nothing compared to diamond play) Right after you get those 4 command center it gets crazy with all that income. I feel like I'm a Terran zerg with all those marines getting mass produced. Once I'm able get a handle on all that extra income + attacking - I think I'll try it out on the ladder.
Mindflow beat avilo with this build on my stream tonight. Beat a couple of people with it. Granted, avilo was off race and then beat Mindflow in a straight up match, but hey, it does work some. Wish I would have saved VOD's of the matches...
It would be nice if the ZvT matchup could stay not broken for five minutes
Zerg's counter to mass marine is a mixture of one-use, gas-heavy units. Even without this innovative *coughbullshit* build, it's a tall order. Not to mention that infestors mean fewer mutas, which means there's nothing to kill the growing numbers of medivacs.
Maybe infestor/roach/hydra would work? There's no way zerg can produce blings fast enough; even vs two normal bases it's a close call.
On December 04 2010 17:45 Belial88 wrote: couldnt this build be used against 2 gate play or robo play? obviously 4 gate and 6gate as well as 3 gate tech could hurt, but the popular concensus is that terran beats p early game. a flash of what he thinks is 2 or 3 rax would lead him to play defensively, allowing you to reap benefits.
essentially what my point is is that perhaps this build cou deal quite well against protoss on maps with and natural like jubgle basin or delta quadrant and with colossus play - 2 geysers is enough to sustain pure mm but getting 4 from 2 base would allow you to easily pump vikings. ghost play could also transition very easily.
The only flaw with this build is that its essentially limited to the normal number of units that're gas users. So you can't spam out ghosts like you can marines, which unfortunately get eaten up by colossus.
If you are making pure marauder/marine/viking you could pump vikings out of a single reactor non stop to more than overwhelm any Colossus play. If 1 base 3 rax MM is supported by a single gas, 1 starport w/reactor is 2 gas for constant viking production, you'd still have a geyser left over to get 1/1 upgrades infantry if you have taken an expansion.
Ghost transition would be easy, and be fairly normal in the view that it's a common and normal 3rd base transition goal. You're 2x Viking production would be much faster than his 1 colosi production on 2 base.
A normal number of Vikings are enough to make PvT balanced in regards to Colossi, and the sheer number of marines and marauders on top would tip things in your favor.
You heard it here first: Mules to cost 1 or 2 supply while they're alive. I honestly can't see any other future in a world where T's best early, mid and late game unit is mineral-only :p
It is interesting, but maybe should be cut down to three CCs and with the intent on actually taking that third when you push out. Alot of things can be done techwise aswell, but overall I think it's very hard to say much considering the replays.
Zerg didnt scout you at all until he had mutas on Xelnaga, and I assume he already knew what you did since you practiced, but in a real game he should react alot diffrerently, and maybe even get more inbase hatches and just go toe to toe with your production, or expand more and outproduce you.
It's easy to theorycraft, but generally the level of play in those replays were also quite bad, so it's hard to say it had to do with the strat or the players (no offense)
On December 04 2010 23:19 Antisocialmunky wrote: :-\ To be honest, any game you win against Zerg on Jungle Basin is due to the map sucking.
I've stopped consider it valid to test crap on it because decent mechanics has given me like 70-80% on that map...
I hate zerg on that map. 2 base zergs are incredibly strong when they go all in roach sling bling with two entrances.
Maybe we're facing different zergs, but zergs on that map get a free expo, and 3rd that they can defend easily with creep spread, as terran gets an easy 2nd, but you GOTTA get a 3rd or else you'll mine out and inc ultras will make you a sad panda.
I hate that map period, to be honest lol. Esp vs 1 gate FE protoss as you cannot even attempt to harass or stop them
On December 04 2010 11:06 Griffith` wrote: Sorry but some of you people are just trolling
for the "he didnt' scout" part, wtf do you mean he didn't scout, he saw the 2rax+expo (he had another ovie on the edge of my expo). He didn't KNOW about the 4OC build, no zerg currently expects that, why would he feel the need to sac an ovie when he already sees 2rax expand. So for all he knows, and for ANY good zerg, thats enough information to know you have to make an assload of blings/infestors. He took his 3rd at around 9minutes, which is ample fast and standard for high-level zerg.
You can't be serious.
1) Zerg didn't even see a terran unit or building before the 5 marines arrived. The game was worthless from that point on.
2) Two rax + expo is all the info zerg had, i.e., a totally standard pressure into expand opening that can transition into just about anything. ANY competent zerg would sac an overlord to gain more info there. Terran could be going just about any tech route. Hell, he wasn't even poking at the front.
Also, you put blings/lings in one control group so you can SURROUND with the lings and blings as well as maximize muta damage.
This isn't true either. For proper micro they need to be in separate control groups. If the terran is microing properly and not just allowing their troops to be surrounded, you need to be able to separately order lings to attack and banes to move in the midst of engagement. In the games you showed it wouldn't matter what zerg does though, since you were just 1aing into wide open spaces.
On December 04 2010 18:00 CatsPajamas wrote: Mindflow beat avilo with this build on my stream tonight. Beat a couple of people with it. Granted, avilo was off race and then beat Mindflow in a straight up match, but hey, it does work some. Wish I would have saved VOD's of the matches...
So OP is hyping his strat, no actuall replay watch value.
The replay is pretty good, admittedly. Avilo may be off race, but this is an interesting strat. I sent him the replay from my comp, so he'll have it up here in a bit. It is worth watching.
It's pretty flexible, if Zerg aggressively expos and doesn't build an army, you can put down one of your OC's to a third earlier.
I also like to put drops all over the place while threatening with my main army. If you disrupt his mining while trading armies, you're going to come out ahead.
When do you guys get upgrades? When do you add tech structures? I would think a couple of reactor factories with pre-ignite would really spice up your second or 3rd push. 2gas can only support 4rax marauders with no gas to spare so I guess people must be using 3-4gas then?
This strats is actually very good, I beat a 2600 zerg player with it (although I'm only 1600 (I love the ladder system:p)), I can provide replays if people are interested
On December 05 2010 03:03 Lylat wrote: This strats is actually very good, I beat a 2600 zerg player with it (although I'm only 1600 (I love the ladder system:p)), I can provide replays if people are interested
Post away! I'll add them to the OP as well and give you guys ample credit
On December 05 2010 03:02 statikg wrote: When do you guys get upgrades? When do you add tech structures? I would think a couple of reactor factories with pre-ignite would really spice up your second or 3rd push. 2gas can only support 4rax marauders with no gas to spare so I guess people must be using 3-4gas then?
Getting upgrades depends on when you want to push, ideally, ups should finish as you go out on your first push after you get your 4CCs up. If you push at around 100 food, early stim/shields is obviously ideal. The mech transition adds in reactored hellions with blue flame and siege tanks + MM. For these gas intensive builds, 4 gas is taken.
On December 04 2010 11:40 mango_destroyer wrote: Can we get replays of this NOT working? I didn`t check the first 2 but I assume it was a winning effort.
Hey I've posted two replays against a TLer doing all-in RRs. it was done of steppes of war, the short rush distance makes the roach rush even more potent.
the first one was done very well by him and I lost. the second replay was an adaption using the mech transition
Terran is effective midgame..... the only reason a lot of people think otherwise is because they rely on Terran Biobal which does become less and less effective the later the game goes. Unless you're like QXC who attacks constantly forcing early/mid game to "last" a lot longer than is normal due to now allowing the other player to tech as fast or at all.
On December 04 2010 23:17 noD wrote: Im so gonna try tha on jungle basin ... it's so fun to see the irony of a terran playing the way zerg is supposed to (replenishing armies everytime)
Terran can't replenish an army like Zerg, that's why it's the way Zerg is built in SC2, it's unique to that Race....
On December 05 2010 03:55 statikg wrote: I meant when do you get +1 atk and +1armor, I would think you would want +1 attack to also be done for your first attack.
The upgrades take 160 seconds or 2 minutes and 40 seconds. If you aim to push at 14:00 you want to start researching them at 11:20. Ebay takes 35 seconds to build, you want to put down the double ebays at 10:45 latest.
On December 04 2010 11:06 Griffith` wrote: Sorry but some of you people are just trolling
for the "he didnt' scout" part, wtf do you mean he didn't scout, he saw the 2rax+expo (he had another ovie on the edge of my expo). He didn't KNOW about the 4OC build, no zerg currently expects that, why would he feel the need to sac an ovie when he already sees 2rax expand. So for all he knows, and for ANY good zerg, thats enough information to know you have to make an assload of blings/infestors. He took his 3rd at around 9minutes, which is ample fast and standard for high-level zerg.
You can't be serious.
1) Zerg didn't even see a terran unit or building before the 5 marines arrived. The game was worthless from that point on.
2) Two rax + expo is all the info zerg had, i.e., a totally standard pressure into expand opening that can transition into just about anything. ANY competent zerg would sac an overlord to gain more info there. Terran could be going just about any tech route. Hell, he wasn't even poking at the front.
Also, you put blings/lings in one control group so you can SURROUND with the lings and blings as well as maximize muta damage.
This isn't true either. For proper micro they need to be in separate control groups. If the terran is microing properly and not just allowing their troops to be surrounded, you need to be able to separately order lings to attack and banes to move in the midst of engagement. In the games you showed it wouldn't matter what zerg does though, since you were just 1aing into wide open spaces.
1) Yes he should have had more lings, I agree with you there. But that doesn't make the game worthless. He had enough drones to make up for any damage I did.
2) Do you even know the timing of ovie scouts for "competent zergs"? Even LeenockfOu scouts at 9 minutes. By that time the OCs would already be finished. It would make no difference.
3) LeenockfOu also puts everything into one control group (infestors/bling/ling) exactly because it is easier to surround.
Hey Griffith, i posted in 30to1's thread but my build actually looks a lot like yours. I've been doing mass marines and tanks but I'm starting to like marauders and medivacs with the marines better for handling banelings, roaches, infestors, just about anything. Im also thinking that I should be building more orbitals throughout the game, and expand more aggressively after the replenishing stream of m&m kicks in.
For the haters, I absolutely insist you try this before you knock it. The whole thing sounds clunky and risky but i was really surprised. A wall made out of two rax and a cc is solid, and you can hold off rushes without too much trouble. You can secure your natural quite easily on all maps except XC and metalopolis, in which case I delay a bit and move out with a large force and bunker up. I couldn't believe how much money I had. My Zerg practice partner knew exactly what I was doing (I told him) and he droned as hard as he could and got his third on Shakuras. The dreaded Zerg economic game in which I applied no pressure and let him power drone, but I was almost equal on harvesters - plus four mules. We traded armies over and over and he couldn't keep up with my production in a 30 minute game, even with full knowledge of my build.
I'm far from the point of calling this playstyle unbeatabe, and I need much more testing, but this feels very viable so far. This is the future - Sauron Terran - get on board or get left behind! (intentionally hyperbolic, relax)
edit: rather than a 5 marine push, which can be fragile, I prefer bunker pressure. Start it before the spawning pool is finished, rally your first marines over, and try to build is where it won't be scouted right away. It doesn't have to be at the ramp or right next to the hatchery, you can even leap frog, the whole point is just to force lings to be made. Don't over-commit of course, and salvage when you see too many lings. The only times I regret it are when I get greedy and try to block the ramp when he has full vision of it.
So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
Has someone tried to fast track Brood Lord tech while using Ling/Bling to defeat the initial MM pushes?
On December 05 2010 06:38 Conrose wrote: So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
Has someone tried to fast track Brood Lord tech while using Ling/Bling to defeat the initial MM pushes?
Note that the ideal scouting time is around 6-7 minutes, so counters and effective builds should be adapted based on that information. This means that blind 5RR/7RRs are NOT "counters" as they require a very early decision.
That having said, I think mass bling/sling all-in might cause issues at the expansions.
On December 05 2010 06:38 Conrose wrote: So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
Has someone tried to fast track Brood Lord tech while using Ling/Bling to defeat the initial MM pushes?
Note that the ideal scouting time is around 6-7 minutes, so counters and effective builds should be adapted based on that information. This means that blind 5RR/7RRs are NOT "counters" as they require a very early decision.
That having said, I think mass bling/sling all-in might cause issues at the expansions.
Hehe, Zerg may have to adjust the timing for the Overlord sac if this build becomes popular, after all, it shares an opening build with 2 other popular builds.
I've tried this build a few times with a ~2k practice partner. I lost 3 games and won 1. In most cases, it was close, I just needed better macro. Even after practicing this several times, I'm still not used to the income. You have to build sooo many production structures. I need more experience before I'll make my thoughts on this BO.
So I've also been trying a variation of this against toss on maps with narrow naturals (LT, steps) etc.
I fake taking gas, and expo off 1 rax marine with a bunker at the front of the nat.
Now, most tosses will expand themselves since they can't really scout you at this point. Nobody has 1 gate robo collosi'd me but I'd assume that you'd die immediately.
I stick with no gas until I start a third CC in my main, constantly producing scvs marines and rax as needed.
Note: You can't really afford to get the 4th cc since it delays too much against collosi or templar. Next, after the third CC has started, take 3-4 gas in rapid succession, add reactors, tech labs, ebays, facts, etc as needed.
Basically, you use the extra cc to saturate your bases much quicker (along with the mule)
The build is relatively safe since 1-3 bunkers as needed+repair holds off most protoss agression. You go into the midgame with an economy about even with the toss and into the late midgame with a much stronger economy. The games I have lost doing this build I've lost due to overcommiting to viking production and delaying ghosts too long (templar are so fucking good
Here is a 2.2k zerg, where I almost lost, because I didn't secure my natural timely enough and didnt micro marines at all. This match however conviently illustrates the power of mules !
On December 05 2010 06:38 Conrose wrote: So then, I think now the discussion should become "How does one effectively counter this build if scouted"?
Ling/Bling Defense keeps the Bioball out of the main and nat until the late Medivacs show up, beyond that, the replenish rate of the build forces Ling/Bling to either run out of minerals or run out of Larva. 5RR and 7RR aren't doing so hot either it seems, and the wall off is up before an effective 6 Pool can do it in which is done blind anyways. The number of Turrets this build can afford without a second thought as Lair Tech starts up also makes Muta Harass laughable, not to mention Supply Depots are replaced faster than they can be destroyed.
I typically go 2 rax into expand into more rax and tanks, and baneling attacks can still break my natural even with extra unit production coming up faster (and often being used to wall). The window of vulnerability on a build that delays additional rax for CCs would seem to be even larger.
I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
On December 05 2010 10:11 Bixs wrote: It is hard to get good zergs nowadays
I think it's more along the lines of "It's hard to get good players nowadays". Being 2400 barely means anything at all, people can grind their way to 2400, people can get lucky and get to 2400, people can be in an easy league and get to 2400. There's so many ways to get high up in Diamond without actually being that great, and a major reason you can do that now is because there are so many bad players playing. SC1 was the same way in the beginning, there were terrible players everywhere making it so people who many good players deemed terrible could still beat over 50% of the population. It happens with any system, if at 2,000 players being Diamond meant you were skilled at 4,000 players it could mean you are most likely skilled and at 6,000 players it could mean you are bad but because of the amount of people you are above average and therefore are placed in Diamond.
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
You will die to eco baneling bust for sure, which is already one of the most common responses to the 2 rax FE. And you can easily scout it on a number of maps. Probably only shak that has a main big enough for you to be lucky and he wont see it and he will see it every single time on xel naga. Yeah sure this build could probably work, but there are tons of cheeses out there that works.
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
On December 05 2010 10:11 Bixs wrote: It is hard to get good zergs nowadays
I think it's more along the lines of "It's hard to get good players nowadays". Being 2400 barely means anything at all, people can grind their way to 2400, people can get lucky and get to 2400, people can be in an easy league and get to 2400. There's so many ways to get high up in Diamond without actually being that great, and a major reason you can do that now is because there are so many bad players playing. SC1 was the same way in the beginning, there were terrible players everywhere making it so people who many good players deemed terrible could still beat over 50% of the population. It happens with any system, if at 2,000 players being Diamond meant you were skilled at 4,000 players it could mean you are most likely skilled and at 6,000 players it could mean you are bad but because of the amount of people you are above average and therefore are placed in Diamond.
I am not sure what you are trying to say exactly ? That 2400 doesn't mean anything and that all below most certainly most be bad players? And that "good" players are what? Only the Top 200?
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
Excuse me.. but..
What the hell is economic cheese?
Usually hidden expo. Basicly doing something that will give you an eco advantage but will make you lose if scouted.
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
Excuse me.. but..
What the hell is economic cheese?
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead
Relying on your build not being scouted for it to be effective.
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
Look you gotta be more specific. This build is NOT dimaga or 1base bustable nor does 5RR/7RR work. I've tested it at least 10 times now with 2k+ zergs. Which particular "early aggression" are you talking about?
EDIT: It NEEDs to be scouted at the right time, the window of opportunity is really quite small (1 minute or so, tops), even then its by no means a gimme for the zerg and probably works about only 50% of the time.
EDIT2: For all those people bashing 2k+ zergs and calling them bads, post your own ID/Points/League to back up your criticisms else STFU.
Think next time I play aganist zerg, I'll go ahead and tell them, that I am making 3 inbase OC, and see what kind of damage they can do with that infomation.
Interesting but the Jungle Basin game was quite poor on the zerg's part. And the terran's macro was quite off as well, floating 2000 mins, rax not pumping during non-action. Will watch another.
This build is both hilarious and enjoyable :D I tried a few small variants of it vs a toss friend [Granted, very low ranked toss friend] with some good results, for that matter
On a nit-picky note, you have a small typo in your write up
":: Feel free to push earlier if you want, (I know thread title says its a 200 food push, but realistically, but after some feedback from TLers, if the zerg starts to mass expand and provided you have the apm/macro/micro, you can and should push much more aggressively and early) "
On December 05 2010 12:39 Bixs wrote: Think next time I play aganist zerg, I'll go ahead and tell them, that I am making 3 inbase OC, and see what kind of damage they can do with that infomation.
lol i think he dont take you serious if you gonna tell him anyway... 1950 terran here i saw 2 of the reps does it work only on that jungel bashin map ?
about the built its scary once you have all the time 4 intead of 1 mule and it has still room for improvements like fast 3/3 uppgrade for MM or figure out the right number of rax
its funny to outmacro a zerg because have 4 mule all the time
the good thing about this cheese you cant scout a terran properly if you not have something like overseeher of something
i think most of the zerg doing nothing and expand intead
this build is the future of tvz but i agree with what someone else said that going 3 oc is better and actually using that 3rd oc to take a third as you move out
lmfaoooo i just started doing this.. like 6-0 in ladder lolll, i just mass barracks and then upgrade marines, i dont transition into anything, at 40 i ebay for upgrades and double tech lab for stim/combat shield and then just throw marines at them while mule mining from any base lol.
After seeing this build a lot. Infestors/ling/bane wrecks it hard. A constant stream of units would be more useful but an attack at the 13 minute is just suicide of the army against infestors
On December 05 2010 14:21 gcoin wrote: lmfaoooo i just started doing this.. like 6-0 in ladder lolll, i just mass barracks and then upgrade marines, i dont transition into anything, at 40 i ebay for upgrades and double tech lab for stim/combat shield and then just throw marines at them while mule mining from any base lol.
After seeing this build a lot. Infestors/ling/bane wrecks it hard. A constant stream of units would be more useful but an attack at the 13 minute is just suicide of the army against infestors
On December 05 2010 10:11 Bixs wrote: It is hard to get good zergs nowadays
I think it's more along the lines of "It's hard to get good players nowadays". Being 2400 barely means anything at all, people can grind their way to 2400, people can get lucky and get to 2400, people can be in an easy league and get to 2400. There's so many ways to get high up in Diamond without actually being that great, and a major reason you can do that now is because there are so many bad players playing. SC1 was the same way in the beginning, there were terrible players everywhere making it so people who many good players deemed terrible could still beat over 50% of the population. It happens with any system, if at 2,000 players being Diamond meant you were skilled at 4,000 players it could mean you are most likely skilled and at 6,000 players it could mean you are bad but because of the amount of people you are above average and therefore are placed in Diamond.
I am not sure what you are trying to say exactly ? That 2400 doesn't mean anything and that all below most certainly most be bad players? And that "good" players are what? Only the Top 200?
I'm saying that you can't really judge someone's actual skill level based on their league and rank. Maybe after they add the Master league there will be a large enough space that only skilled players can make it into the Master league. But yes, as of right now being 2400 doesn't mean anything because of over saturation of the leagues.
I actually started doing this on 4v4s for fun, except actually taking 4 expos. If my 3 teammates keep me alive, it's actually very easy to 1v4 the entire other team. The production capabilities are just sickening.
However, here's some problems I see in solo:
1) The entire discussion is based on the assumption that you're playing against a standard zerg build. Usually some kind of 14-hatch into normal 2-base zerg stuff. However, if you're doing a balls-to-the-wall economic powering strat, why can't they? There's no reason a zerg player couldn't take a 3rd or 4th hatchery as soon as they scout it and fight off your push (or know ahead of time if you try to use it as a standard build). In this situation, they could actually out-macro you on 2 bases (when the gas income is taken into consideration).
2) Well-executed sling/bling contains are going to be hard to beat. They can't bust you if you play it right, but they can surely prevent you from taking your second with adequate pressure and then contain you (Kyrix aggression style). 4ocs on one mineral line is not going to pay off any time soon.
That's not to say this is worthless, but that like most TvZ builds at the moment, it basically relies on deception and hoping your opponent is unaware of what you're doing.
On December 05 2010 11:08 Rowa wrote: I'm trying to get the build right, but my 2k6 zerg mate just rolls over me with roach timing pushes around the 7/8 min mark (just when transitionning in fact), even bunkers dont seem to seal the deal for me. Any suggestions ?
How many bunkers did you add? Did you SCV-repair? Do you have a replay?
On December 05 2010 11:11 Armsved wrote: This is complete BS, sorry.
There is litterally no way you can hold a number of zerg aggression with only 2 rax and no stim.
How will the zerg spot this? It is unscoutable prior to 5:30. An ovie sac despite the 6-7 marines patrolling the perimeters will be needed. Even if the zerg spots exactly at 6:00 (when the 4CCs are going up) he has about 1 to 2 minutes to pull off a bust. Remember zerg would have just been hit by a 5 marine push and most zergs want to replenish their drone force as much as they can. Zerg literally needs to all-in. You can't baneling bust this. So yes, eco roach busts are pretty much the only other alternative. T can easily double bunker at ramp and pull off 5-6 SCVs to repair the bunkers or raxes.
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead. Ofcourse if top players find this build viable and start using it regularly, Zerg players will catch on and OV-sac at exactly 6:00 min (which isn't uncommon in current play anyways).
Excuse me.. but..
What the hell is economic cheese?
This is an economic cheese; if your opponent doesn't scout it you have a good chance of winning, if he scouts it or blindly counters it with early agression, you're probably dead
Relying on your build not being scouted for it to be effective.
You know.... It's called a Hidden Expansion... or a FE... don't call every other fkin thing cheese. lol
On to the actual topic! Dude I loved when you lost 80~ish marines and had the same supply as the zerg. As a protoss... thank god I'm not worrying about seeing THIS in one of my games... lol
i've been doing this in daimond ladder and suprisingly vs zerg it's been dominating, i only lost one game to an unscouted semi mid game baneling bust right when all my oc's finished and just started on first mule wave... at the second mule wave it's pretty much already too late for the zerg as your macro/income will skyrocket and start to snowball out of control for the zerg... if this is scouted by an enemy you have to kill with mid pressure or copy by taking 4 expo's yourself ASAP. very good build your definately onto something with this. and it is fun destroying 120 armies with a maxxed 200/200 hehe
On December 05 2010 18:18 iEchoic wrote: I actually started doing this on 4v4s for fun, except actually taking 4 expos. If my 3 teammates keep me alive, it's actually very easy to 1v4 the entire other team. The production capabilities are just sickening.
However, here's some problems I see in solo:
1) The entire discussion is based on the assumption that you're playing against a standard zerg build. Usually some kind of 14-hatch into normal 2-base zerg stuff. However, if you're doing a balls-to-the-wall economic powering strat, why can't they? There's no reason a zerg player couldn't take a 3rd or 4th hatchery as soon as they scout it and fight off your push (or know ahead of time if you try to use it as a standard build). In this situation, they could actually out-macro you on 2 bases (when the gas income is taken into consideration).
2) Well-executed sling/bling contains are going to be hard to beat. They can't bust you if you play it right, but they can surely prevent you from taking your second with adequate pressure and then contain you (Kyrix aggression style). 4ocs on one mineral line is not going to pay off any time soon.
That's not to say this is worthless, but that like most TvZ builds at the moment, it basically relies on deception and hoping your opponent is unaware of what you're doing.
1) The build is 1base baneling bust proof and 5RR/7RR proof. For the zerg macro point, i'll copy and paste what I wrote in the FAQ:
"Q: Why doesn't the zerg double/triple/quadruple expand? A: Let's look at the timing. Remember zerg will have been hit by a 5 marine push at around 5:00, these 5 marines will also be able to deny any early overlord scouting to prevent seeing the 4OC. It also makes it seem like you are doing a standard 2rax-expo or 5-rax all-in. The zerg can only comfortably double+ expand if he has scouted your build. You can hide your CCs away from the ramp. Your fourth 4th CC is placed at around 5:30 and finishes at around 7:00. Meaning realistically, the Zerg would have to sac Overlords to see the 4OCs at around 5:30 and double expand at between 6 to 8 minutes. You will have enough marines patrolling your base to make scouting difficult. If he starts the expos at 6:00, he won't finish the hatcheries until 7:40 (they take 100 second, queen won't be out until 8:30). The production capabilities of 20 rax equivalent trumps that of 3hatch.
You have at least around 15-25 marines _already_ at 8:00 (from the production off of the 2rax). At 8:30 minutes the Terran already has 6 raxes churning out marines non-stop. I think the timing is too dangerous for the zerg to double expand. Terran doesn't _have_ to sit until 200/200. Triple expanding means zerg will have no way of defending a 75 or 100 food bioball push. Taking a 2nd expo seems feasible, but 3rd seems impossible. But again, even taking a 2nd expo doesn't even come close to 2200 minerals/min."
2) The ability to take your nat is fairly map dependent. On maps like metalopolis/Xel'naga towers, the nat has a huge wide and accessible space. Other maps like Jungle base/delta quadrant has easy expos. However, I learnt that if you make your natural expo's wall-in with a few bunkers and your assload of barracks, it is extremely difficult to bust, the zerg is pretty much forced to go all-in if he wants a chance. Even if you are slightly contained, you can overmule your main's minerals, it alone will provide more than enough income for you to build up an army to secure your natural.
After watching the reps and playing around with it i have to say this could be even stronger with upgrades and medivacs. if you dont get him after your 1. or 2. wave your chances are slim.
To make it viable for a long game with constant marine pressure you should try to build 1 Rax less and make gas and EngBay instead. Next 100 gas to stim or shield and the build seems ready to take zergs in the long run Of course you need to take your 3. and 4. expo accordingly.
I'm concerned with the damage those first 5 marines do, do you think the jdseemoreglass 11 pool 18 hatch will be able to simply repel the early pressure, putting you under the gun for a possible early counter? It seems like the answer to the builds this could be disguised as is early pressure, either to deny a fe or survive an all in. From people's responses it appears to be a great macro, but it just seems like quick busts/contains could cripple its effectiveness?
On December 06 2010 03:19 Teddyjex wrote: It seems like the answer to the builds this could be disguised as is early pressure, either to deny a fe or survive an all in. From people's responses it appears to be a great macro, but it just seems like quick busts/contains could cripple its effectiveness?
True. When the zerg is very agressive, you will be behind a lot. I tested this against a 2300+ diamond zerg. I defended with 4 bunkers and he still did some amazing damage.
I think you just broke the game, or at least the meta game. I couldn't win a TvZ to save my life, even in the early game (1k Diamond Random). Now I seem to win without trying.
Anyone else think the mule should have been nerfed, even before this?
On December 06 2010 04:16 StatusAttack wrote: I think you just broke the game, or at least the meta game. I couldn't win a TvZ to save my life, even in the early game (1k Diamond Random). Now I seem to win without trying.
Anyone else think the mule should have been nerfed, even before this?
No, not at all. Imagine protoss taking 2 hidden expansions. If you sit back as terran you will lose.
This is economical very risky and a very agressive zerg will roll over this without a problem.
I always thought of the idea of making extra OC's, because as stated after 100 energy (50 seconds or so after it completes) you get your money back and start to make a profit. How would you deal with baneling agression with a 16rax build lol
A mule lasts 67.5 ( Real seconds ) and is equal to 5 SCVs for the duration 4 mules per interval = temporary +20 scvs ( Ignores saturation )
4 mules = 1080 minerals gone per base per 67.5 seconds (Real Seconds)( takes 12.4 minutes to get rid of 8x1500 minerals only mules/no scvs ) could be greatly less if you added in 24 scvs ( 3scvs x 8patches ) ~7.5 minutes? should drain all the island expands on scrap or something...
if the OP is going to do this, all the mules should be spent on expansions ( keep the CCs where they are to continue collecting gas )
with 4 orbitals, you could build 4 workers at a time ( perhaps use some of them for auto repair on your army + offensive bunkers/turrets? )
since you're going to fast expand, you could get a quick armory and 2 ebays...gas should be fairly easy to get and minerals aren't a problem
On December 04 2010 11:06 Griffith` wrote: Sorry but some of you people are just trolling
for the "he didnt' scout" part, wtf do you mean he didn't scout, he saw the 2rax+expo (he had another ovie on the edge of my expo). He didn't KNOW about the 4OC build, no zerg currently expects that, why would he feel the need to sac an ovie when he already sees 2rax expand. So for all he knows, and for ANY good zerg, thats enough information to know you have to make an assload of blings/infestors. He took his 3rd at around 9minutes, which is ample fast and standard for high-level zerg.
You can't be serious.
1) Zerg didn't even see a terran unit or building before the 5 marines arrived. The game was worthless from that point on.
2) Two rax + expo is all the info zerg had, i.e., a totally standard pressure into expand opening that can transition into just about anything. ANY competent zerg would sac an overlord to gain more info there. Terran could be going just about any tech route. Hell, he wasn't even poking at the front.
Also, you put blings/lings in one control group so you can SURROUND with the lings and blings as well as maximize muta damage.
This isn't true either. For proper micro they need to be in separate control groups. If the terran is microing properly and not just allowing their troops to be surrounded, you need to be able to separately order lings to attack and banes to move in the midst of engagement. In the games you showed it wouldn't matter what zerg does though, since you were just 1aing into wide open spaces.
1) Yes he should have had more lings, I agree with you there. But that doesn't make the game worthless. He had enough drones to make up for any damage I did.
2) Do you even know the timing of ovie scouts for "competent zergs"? Even LeenockfOu scouts at 9 minutes. By that time the OCs would already be finished. It would make no difference.
3) LeenockfOu also puts everything into one control group (infestors/bling/ling) exactly because it is easier to surround.
On 1), I disagree. If zerg is behind from the 5 minute mark and then playing in the blind to the 12 minute mark then it's no test of the build.
Regarding 2), there is no fixed timing for scouting. A good zerg should scout when they need to scout, i.e., whenever down on intel. In that game, I would have been poking the front and/or sacing an overlord around the 7 minute mark. The lack of a follow up to the first marine push coupled with the fast expo tells zerg that terran is going to be teching hard, or putting down production facilities for a scary low tier 2 base push. It's absolutely critical to check what's going on at that point in time - zerg relies on active scouting to survive. If you don't scout, you will lose, simple as that.
Had zerg seen the OCs, I suspect a Kyrix-style baneling bust would end the game before terran's economy has kicked in.
3) If you watch LeenockfOu's micro, he often separately selects the lings and banes during combat to better micro them, which he can get away with due to his APM. Just putting them in a control group together isn't enough.
On December 06 2010 03:19 Teddyjex wrote: It seems like the answer to the builds this could be disguised as is early pressure, either to deny a fe or survive an all in. From people's responses it appears to be a great macro, but it just seems like quick busts/contains could cripple its effectiveness?
True. When the zerg is very agressive, you will be behind a lot. I tested this against a 2300+ diamond zerg. I defended with 4 bunkers and he still did some amazing damage.
Yeah Griffith i think the fear is not the 1 base bust or rr, but rather the quick 2base push.
So I think the key in doing this against terran and protoss, is having constant pressure and making sure they don't get that critical mass of tanks or colossus. force them to keep spending on units instead of teching. There was a good replay earlier by gcoin really demonstrates how mass marine or bio in general could overwhelm a colossus army and since then I've been practicing that type of constant aggression against terran and protoss and really seems to work well since you can outproduce even after losing 2-3 smallish armies
On December 06 2010 05:26 TheRealDJ wrote: So I think the key in doing this against terran and protoss, is having constant pressure and making sure they don't get that critical mass of tanks or colossus. force them to keep spending on units instead of teching. There was a good replay earlier by gcoin really demonstrates how mass marine or bio in general could overwhelm a colossus army and since then I've been practicing that type of constant aggression against terran and protoss and really seems to work well since you can outproduce even after losing 2-3 smallish armies
Against terran: good luck fighting a 6:30 minute rine + tanks with siegmode push.
Against protoss: by the time your OC's are up, a 4gate is @ your door or even worse: a stalker + voidray bust.
This build is really strong against someone passive, but believe me, it is really weak against early agression. A 2base zerg doing some agression will kill you before your economy starts kicking in. Your natural will be heavily damaged and by the time you recovered, the zerg will be way ahead. I really would like to see a high level tvz where the T wins after a 2base agressive zerg with this build.
Well, I have seen this build about 10 times already in custom games. All the Terran players appear to be trying it. It is a very nasty build. The only way I have had success on it is through a quick roach tech. Not exactly a roach rush, but the roaches get out when you need them. If you scouted right, or you have the intuition to know that your opponents build is mass orbital based on wall and units, then your only choice really is to bust it down between the 5:00 - 6:30 minute mark or so. If you went roach without speedling and didn't hatch before pool, you will have more than enough roaches to kill the Terran's pure marine army. A key part to the roaches working is that his first marine harass squad is at your natural right when your 1st or 2nd round of roaches pop, effectively making the marines a lost investment, and your roach death ball is heading on down for victory. Regardless of that, it is still a crazy strong build, and will definitely change the metagame, at least for the next several weeks. Hopefully I can learn to beat it easily now, so my ZvT ladder games get much easier along the next few weeks.
On December 06 2010 04:16 StatusAttack wrote: I think you just broke the game, or at least the meta game. I couldn't win a TvZ to save my life, even in the early game (1k Diamond Random). Now I seem to win without trying.
Anyone else think the mule should have been nerfed, even before this?
No, not at all. Imagine protoss taking 2 hidden expansions. If you sit back as terran you will lose.
This is economical very risky and a very agressive zerg will roll over this without a problem.
Statements like this should have replays included. In my experience I have not been vulnerable to any early aggression. And if the Zerg makes all those units instead of drones he will have problems keeping up later. I am curious what you think the Zerg should do to "roll over this without a problem."
Note that I am not talking in absolutes, zergs can probably beat this in a variety of ways but it's silly to say that it is that easy for either side. Honestly these statements make you sound like you just wrote it off because it sounds crazy, and it does. But I tried it and was amazed at how effective it is. My wall consists of two barracks and a cc, I don't even worry about stopping them from scouting, although as this build becomes more popular I probably should. If they drone up and mass expand I can keep up just fine, and if they're very aggressive I can defend it. The wall is baneling proof and roach rushes are easy to scout and adapt to. The hardest scenario is probably a high econ roach bust that hits at the right timing window before the mules kick in and after i've landed my expo. I feel like this is only going to be relevant on XC and Metalopolis, as it's easier to block the natural on other maps. At worst, this requires patience and smart play from both players, with scouting playing a big role as well, it's not an auto loss for anybody.
edit: Dente, I just saw some of your other posts, it looks like you did try it at least once and the discussion has turned to a later timing push, which I agree should be the primary concern . I would still say that such aggression is far from an easy win but it should be accounted for.
Personally I think the best play from Zerg is to play a high econ game and worry about map control after surviving that big push. And everyone needs to relax and be measured in their responses. If you don't know what you're talking about and come in here to bash it because it's different, you aren't helping the conversation. Seriously, try it out and see what you think.
I've played this build against muta baneling a few times and it feels like it can go either way IF they really get a lot of mutas to brute force your turrets AND enough banelings AND your micro is bad enough to lose all marines to those banelings. This scenario hasn't happened with all these factors at once yet, probably because resources are finite . But it's fairly easy to be a little ahead on supply and block banelings with marauders (marine micro doesn't even have to be stellar). That comp is much less scary when you're ahead in supply. Don't forget those fast upgrades! I'll post some replays when I get home and get some laddering in.
On December 06 2010 06:02 Senorcuidado wrote: Note that I am not talking in absolutes, zergs can probably beat this in a variety of ways but it's silly to say that it is that easy for either side. Honestly these statements make you sound like you just wrote it off because it sounds crazy, and it does. But I tried it and was amazed at how effective it is. My wall consists of two barracks and a cc, I don't even worry about stopping them from scouting, although as this build becomes more popular I probably should. If they drone up and mass expand I can keep up just fine, and if they're very aggressive I can defend it. The wall is baneling proof and roach rushes are easy to scout and adapt to.The hardest scenario is probably a high econ roach bust that hits at the right timing window before the mules kick in and after i've landed my expo. I feel like this is only going to be relevant on XC and Metalopolis, as it's easier to block the natural on other maps. At worst, this requires patience and smart play from both players, with scouting playing a big role as well, it's not an auto loss for anybody.
I wasn't talking about a baneling bust. I was talking about 2base agression. You land your CC and you bunker up. Then banelings + roaches + speedlings come and they don't kill you, but they hurt you a lot.
On December 06 2010 05:26 TheRealDJ wrote: So I think the key in doing this against terran and protoss, is having constant pressure and making sure they don't get that critical mass of tanks or colossus. force them to keep spending on units instead of teching. There was a good replay earlier by gcoin really demonstrates how mass marine or bio in general could overwhelm a colossus army and since then I've been practicing that type of constant aggression against terran and protoss and really seems to work well since you can outproduce even after losing 2-3 smallish armies
Against terran: good luck fighting a 6:30 minute rine + tanks with siegmode push.
Against protoss: by the time your OC's are up, a 4gate is @ your door or even worse: a stalker + voidray bust.
This build is really strong against someone passive, but believe me, it is really weak against early agression. A 2base zerg doing some agression will kill you before your economy starts kicking in. Your natural will be heavily damaged and by the time you recovered, the zerg will be way ahead. I really would like to see a high level tvz where the T wins after a 2base agressive zerg with this build.
I've gone up against both with the build. Against T, push with your first five marines with the double rax and you'll hurt them enough they'll be nervous about pushing then just keep pushing once you get decent size groups, don't feel like you need to constantly reinforce. Against P, you have double bunker, +repair and you'll do fine, again while putting on constant pressure, those first 5 marines are important. Naturally some of this is map dependent such as ones with backdoor rocks etc. You just have to be careful with fast expand on maps with open areas, where it'd be better to first floating one of your oc's to a different base and using mule call down.
On December 06 2010 06:15 TheRealDJ wrote: I've gone up against both with the build. Against T, push with your first five marines with the double rax and you'll hurt them enough they'll be nervous about pushing then just keep pushing once you get decent size groups, don't feel like you need to constantly reinforce. Against P, you have double bunker, +repair and you'll do fine. Naturally some of this is map dependent such as ones with backdoor rocks etc. You just have to be careful with fast expand on maps with open areas, where it'd be better to first floating one of your oc's to a different base and using mule call down.
Then you didn't met competet terrans. I, for example, put a bunker up in tvt. At 6:30 I will be at your door with marines + a tank with siegemode. A minute later it will be 2 tanks.
What are you going to do against a protoss that expands + keeps on forcefielding your ramp?
On December 06 2010 06:02 Senorcuidado wrote: Note that I am not talking in absolutes, zergs can probably beat this in a variety of ways but it's silly to say that it is that easy for either side. Honestly these statements make you sound like you just wrote it off because it sounds crazy, and it does. But I tried it and was amazed at how effective it is. My wall consists of two barracks and a cc, I don't even worry about stopping them from scouting, although as this build becomes more popular I probably should. If they drone up and mass expand I can keep up just fine, and if they're very aggressive I can defend it. The wall is baneling proof and roach rushes are easy to scout and adapt to.The hardest scenario is probably a high econ roach bust that hits at the right timing window before the mules kick in and after i've landed my expo. I feel like this is only going to be relevant on XC and Metalopolis, as it's easier to block the natural on other maps. At worst, this requires patience and smart play from both players, with scouting playing a big role as well, it's not an auto loss for anybody.
I wasn't talking about a baneling bust. I was talking about 2base agression. You land your CC and you bunker up. Then banelings + roaches + speedlings come and they don't kill you, but they hurt you a lot.
ok it appears we are in agreement . I think the best way to handle this is good scouting, which isn't always easy of course. It may pay off to delay landing the expo on XC and Metal until the production kicks in, even though you'll mine out the main quickly. Double starport banshees can either win the game or give you enough map control to secure the expo against this kind of play, but that's all theory. When I mech that's how I usually deal with it but I already have the starport so it's easier. That might actually be a cool idea to experiment with.
This is working very well for me. I'm 4-0 with it so far vZ, tried it out against a couple protoss but couldnt win, too many collosus or 3gate robo early pressure knocks down my bunkers.
Zerg have a tough choice to make, they have to basically switch to overdrive unit production as soon as they scout it, in which case they are gonna be screwed if they dont kill you in the next few minutes, note that on maps with easily defended naturals this is much harder for them, or they have to hang back and try to defend, It might be doable with enough infestors and banelings, but so far I hanv't seen it happen. Roaches is a death sentence.
I played one game where the zerg manged to kill quite a few of my scvs with banelings from the side on xelnaga, he did it again later on in the game. It wasn't enough to make a difference though becuase I was able to easily replenished my scvs off 4CCs and once I took the gold all the mules really made me income go crazy. Even though you mine out 2 bases super fast with this build, taking a gold as your 3rd allows you to maintain your 10rax production no problem for a few more minutes....the gold mines out reaaaal fast though.
Even if the zerg manages to do significant economy damage, it doesnt matter
On December 06 2010 06:15 TheRealDJ wrote: I've gone up against both with the build. Against T, push with your first five marines with the double rax and you'll hurt them enough they'll be nervous about pushing then just keep pushing once you get decent size groups, don't feel like you need to constantly reinforce. Against P, you have double bunker, +repair and you'll do fine. Naturally some of this is map dependent such as ones with backdoor rocks etc. You just have to be careful with fast expand on maps with open areas, where it'd be better to first floating one of your oc's to a different base and using mule call down.
Then you didn't met competet terrans. I, for example, put a bunker up in tvt. At 6:30 I will be at your door with marines + a tank with siegemode. A minute later it will be 2 tanks.
What are you going to do against a protoss that expands + keeps on forcefielding your ramp?
Well I've only gone up against that build once since using the mass oc build, but against t, I'd try to pull back when I see the bunker, but don't pull back to base, go to an intercept point halfway through the map and try to take out the tank when its not in siege mode. Even if I lose that battle, I'll still have weakened the push enough to let the production facilities to be operational and mules kicking in. The key is not letting it get to a siege contain situation, hence the aggression. If they slow push with tanks, marine/marauder with stim and combat shield can actually do well against that depending on position and as long as it doesn't get to critical mass. In the P situation, float an OC to another base, focus on getting some tanks out. If they're delaying the push by using force fields, then you're in better shape since you'll have the mass raxs/facts ready. The nice thing about this is you can be flexible while not dependent on securing the natural since you don't need to have scvs at a hidden base.
Again, I haven't tested this in every concievable scenario, just theorizing the best posture to take against both groups. Even then, they would have to specifically know the build you're doing in order to have that specific build to counter it(assuming its 100% counterable)
Quick question, on levels with island expands or rocked blocked expansions, could you conceivably have the 4th CC pick up SCVs, liftoff and land before going OC while the SCV's rush to get refineries up to make it a more techy macro build?
I doubt anyone has tested this build thoroughly enough to tell you a definitive yes or no. Most iterations rely on heavy marine production. Island-gas rush may be a viable way to develop a mech-army. However it means you're really vulnerable unless you turret up hard (which considering your mineral income shouldnt be hard)
On December 06 2010 07:05 Hopeless1der wrote: I doubt anyone has tested this build thoroughly enough to tell you a definitive yes or no. Most iterations rely on heavy marine production. Island-gas rush may be a viable way to develop a mech-army. However it means you're really vulnerable unless you turret up hard (which considering your mineral income shouldnt be hard)
If you look at most of the replays vs Zerg, they go 5 Turrets per Resource line without a second thought, in one I saw them go up before the OCs even finished landing. But yeah, Scrap Station is probably a very strong map to go with a tech variation of this for since there is the Island Expansion + 2 Rocked off expansions to gas rush from... although going for the island expansion can be something of a risk as they can either play into your hands and tech mutas in response, or they rush nydus tech which one replay showed had the potential for being a fairly strong asset vs this build.
I ran this build a few times today and I admittedly didn't give it enough credit earlier. It's been successful on ladder, I'll run it against some better practice partners later and give results.
There are a couple kinks that may need to work out but it definitely has potential to be a solid build.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but this build is pretty similar with the exception of the 2 CCs to marine raven except that after your first 5marine pressure you fall back and macro up instead of keeping the pressure on. Seems like a prudent idea to me to take your 3rd and 4th gas and eventually 5th and 6th and add ravens into the mix. I am guessing most people are currently choosing to go for medivacs instead though? IMO, zerg typcially depends on a big baneling ball to do most of their damage so medivacs are of questionable use. If at the end of the baneling ball you still have a decent sized group of units alive that is obviously not true though. What do you guys think?
How I used ravens in the MR strategy was to place turrets at one expansion while I pressured another with my bioball, and also for HSM as landing a HSM on a big ball of banelings is all it takes to win when your depending on heavy bio even if you are behind.
Well, I tried a quick test of a Gas rush approach and had 650 Gas/min by 10 minutes in without a horrible loss of bioball size until I started spamming Thors out of 3 factories.
Title has been changed. It's been sufficiently determined by the awesome TL community and countless feedback that a 13-minute 200/200 food is really not necessary and is very much situational.
Basic gist - time your push for when zerg's 3rd base goes up. If zerg is 2-base aggressing, then just turtle up to 200/200.
I haven't tried this yet, but I definitely will when I'm done all college finals I have a bunch of experience late-game TvT with mass OC's and suiciding all mineral SCVS, but never thought to try it early-mid game TvZ
I don't know what rating this guy is, but I'm playing at high diamond.
My personal changes: - Scrap the 200/200. You can apply pressure throughout the game. - Pretty much it. Nice build.
Ive seen quite a bit of your play before and I was excited to see you had try of this build since I know your quite solid. But in that particular replay Id say that game was over at 6 minutes when your marine + scv rush killed all of his zlings + alot of drones + a queen.
After the damage that was done there the build was kind of irrelevant.
I've read alot of people saying high econ roach/Bling will beat this build but it never works vs me.
Heres a replay of a zerg trying to high econ bbust me and I just counter it with bunkers
You'll notice that he kills ALOT of my scvs but it doesn't matter as I can build scvs out of 4 Orbitals.
Recently wiped my replays so I cant upload a roach one but I will as soon as I face a zerg that does it. Its pretty much the same thing except I pull scvs to mass repair and have 2-3 marauders up by then
I've read alot of people saying high econ roach/Bling will beat this build but it never works vs me.
Heres a replay of a zerg trying to high econ bbust me and I just counter it with bunkers
You'll notice that he kills ALOT of my scvs but it doesn't matter as I can build scvs out of 4 Orbitals.
Recently wiped my replays so I cant upload a roach one but I will as soon as I face a zerg that does it. Its pretty much the same thing except I pull scvs to mass repair and have 2-3 marauders up by then
Yeah it never worked against me either, and I had a friend go infestor/baneling to test. At a certain point speed bane gets killed before it can reach the bio ball. Plus even if the first army gets killed, at that point you're reinforcing it with too many units, and creating zerglings, then morphing into banelings takes too long. I would recommend from that replay that you put more buildings to make the wall more secure, such as barracks or engineering bays to guard the bunkers. Plus I've been noticing in alot of replays people not continuing to get more orbital commands when they can afford it. I find it boosts my economy much more as a result with every extra oc I can get. Plus I can also risk sending one out to a third base and just use mules to mine from it.
On December 06 2010 14:14 Phill3593 wrote: This BUild is incredibly OP and will be nerfed in the next couple weeks for sure
I was kinda wondering about this, but how can they nerf it without ruining the core terran gameplay? Would they halve the income from mules(which would put terran at a severe disadvantage), limit the number of OCs? Even then 4 is not an unreasonable number to have late game. This is a core gameplay mechanic, so I don't now how they can nerf it.
what about cutting scv production on this build once the two bases are saturated? with that many ccs you can always build more scvs if you need them, and on two bases less scvs = more mineral for army.
TheRealDJ, if they were going to nerf it, they would probably put mules on a 30 second global timer or something like that (or whatever they deem to be the 'fair maximum mules per minute')
You all realize of course someone's going to have to make a piece of artwork linking this new 4 OC build's ridiculous mineral potential with the "Infinite Potential" of Marines, lol.
I've read alot of people saying high econ roach/Bling will beat this build but it never works vs me.
Heres a replay of a zerg trying to high econ bbust me and I just counter it with bunkers
You'll notice that he kills ALOT of my scvs but it doesn't matter as I can build scvs out of 4 Orbitals.
Recently wiped my replays so I cant upload a roach one but I will as soon as I face a zerg that does it. Its pretty much the same thing except I pull scvs to mass repair and have 2-3 marauders up by then
holy crap thats a lot of bunkers O_o, but very nicely done, zerg pretty much had to all-in
On December 06 2010 14:46 Vaporized wrote: has jinro posted in this thread?
I don't think so, would be cool to get his feedback. But I don't think he has any TvZs coming up.
On December 06 2010 14:14 Phill3593 wrote: This BUild is incredibly OP and will be nerfed in the next couple weeks for sure
I was kinda wondering about this, but how can they nerf it without ruining the core terran gameplay? Would they halve the income from mules(which would put terran at a severe disadvantage), limit the number of OCs? Even then 4 is not an unreasonable number to have late game. This is a core gameplay mechanic, so I don't now how they can nerf it.
It's not OP at all, I've lost with it. There's some ways to deal with it effectively.
On December 06 2010 14:14 Phill3593 wrote: This BUild is incredibly OP and will be nerfed in the next couple weeks for sure
I was kinda wondering about this, but how can they nerf it without ruining the core terran gameplay? Would they halve the income from mules(which would put terran at a severe disadvantage), limit the number of OCs? Even then 4 is not an unreasonable number to have late game. This is a core gameplay mechanic, so I don't now how they can nerf it.
It's not OP at all, I've lost with it. There's some ways to deal with it effectively.
do you have time for infestors as a zerg? assuming you can fend off early marines.
On December 06 2010 14:55 Conrose wrote: Can someone talk a partner into trying Ling Bling to hold off the initial Marine waves while teching to Brood Lords on 2 base or 3 base?
Actually saw this today of a 2base broodlord against MM(+M). Broodlords just aren't worth it against MMM and easy access to reactored vikings neutralizes it too quickly.
And yes, there is time for infestors, but not many.
On December 06 2010 14:55 Conrose wrote: Can someone talk a partner into trying Ling Bling to hold off the initial Marine waves while teching to Brood Lords on 2 base or 3 base?
Actually saw this today of a 2base broodlord against MM(+M). Broodlords just aren't worth it against MMM and easy access to reactored vikings neutralizes it too quickly.
And yes, there is time for infestors, but not many.
So at present, 4OC with proper micro with the first 5 Marines + on the Defense against certain more aggressive builds fairs very well against all current Zerg builds?
1) There's a problem I've noticed when you're reconciling these facts: - You need to secure a third base when you move out - You're creating an essentially disposable army (bio) - You can not build a planetary fortress
As a result, these things leave your expo undefended in the occurance that you end up trading armies with the zerg (usually banelings). Securing 3rd/4th expos is hard if your opponent goes very heavy blings/lings and ends up army trading with you on many maps.
2) I actually think this build is better suited for a jinro/immvp-style tank + bio than pure bio. The reason for this is that securing additional expansions is more valuable for you than your opponent because of your ability to maynard huge amounts of workers over because you get oversaturated very quickly. Siege tanks give you positional control.
I tried this build and failed pretty hilariously against an unorthodox build from PsY, I believe he's casting it, so check his channel.
It says so in the FAQ. Basically, there's no way in fuck this works against protoss and terran, unless you get some sick, sweet BO advatage... somehow.
in TvT, siege pushes or blue flame hellion kill you. In tvp, fast colosi will own you (although you are extremely prepared for dark templar!), and heavy gateway compositions will cause trouble.
On December 06 2010 16:19 iaguz wrote: It says so in the FAQ. Basically, there's no way in fuck this works against protoss and terran, unless you get some sick, sweet BO advatage... somehow.
in TvT, siege pushes or blue flame hellion kill you. In tvp, fast colosi will own you (although you are extremely prepared for dark templar!), and heavy gateway compositions will cause trouble.
In TvP, just about any 1 Base play will destroy this BO, or one that puts out more than 2 Colossi before the first major Marine push. And I've had 1 player try to DT Rush me while I was using a variant of this build, he GG'd when he finally came up my ramp and saw the OC I was using on the wall, the one at my nat and knew I had one for my main.
TvT, they really only need to knock on the door with more marines than you have while the 2nd and 3rd CC's are under construction/upgrading to OCs... and lets face it, if they want to see what's going on in your base, they certainly will!
Here's a couple replays from tonight. My play is was a little sloppy since I haven't laddered seriously in a couple weeks but excuses excuses blah blah. Both opponents are 2200-2300 if i recall correctly.
I did lose a game tonight but i forgot to save the replay. The zerg took FOUR bases before the 10 minute mark and did nothing but power drones. Needless to say I should have been more aggressive, i could have run over him at any point before those were all up and running. He went for mass banelings and roaches, and bombed my expansions quite a bit. I still could have won that game when the 200/200 armies clashed but he surprised me with some excellent baneling bombing. Overall he outplayed the shit out of me and I deserved to lose :D. His mass expanding seems like it was really risky though - without even scouting all the orbitals (just the 2 rax), any aggression from me would have done a lot of damage. iEchoic's replay is a terrific example, you really have to be aggressive.
A very fun strategy, I'm still enjoying it! I've noticed that if zerg goes for standard ling/baneling/muta, it's pretty easy for me. The mutas just don't do great in a stand-up fight. A whole lot of banelings and roaches seems to be the best response I've seen so far, but I'm trying to find a good timing to add banshees. There are lots of possibilities for transitions.
To all those zergs saying that this build is OP and "mules need to be nerfed": they need to nerf hatcheries too, because when a zerg makes 4 of them before 8:00 and I sit back as terran, I can't beat him!
Very interesting idea to add multiple OCs while you're still on 2-base, but thats the only one big thing (and if this would become used in high level play, it's pretty damn big) that this build really does. Really I don't see this as much of a "build", it's more of a smart way to improve your economy. As pointed out, you put yourself at risk while getting the OCs up, but once they're up and you can start benefitting from them economically, theres no denying it's better to have 4 OCs than 2.
There were already before heavy bio builds used against Z, this really is no different than that other than improved economy. And pure bio has always been able to keep up well with Z in terms of ability to replenish armies. This does exactly that, but even better than before because of the improved economy. And as pointed out by others already, theres no magic time at 200/200 when attacking is ideal. The ideal attack moment will be completely depending on what your opponent does and you can't just play blind to 200/200 and then go. You need to scout and adapt to what you're facing..... just like every other build out there.
From a purely economic standpoint, I'm quite sure this can be used no matter whether you go bio, mech or air, as well as against all races. Theres just no way you can argue against the mathematics that obviously prove that once you're able to start calling down mules from an extra OC, you will gain on it economically. With mech/air you will obviously run into gas problems, and thats most likely the reason it's less effective against T and P. Its still an economic gain against T and P, but in those matchup you're more dependant on actually getting gas heavy units, hence the massive mineral income wont benefit you as much as if you go pure bio. But still, that doesn't change that in any given situation (supposing you dont die because you have less units while you build the OCs) extra OCs will kick in after a while and you will benefit economically from them.
I'm quite sure you could do variations of this with just 1 extra OC, as well as late game adding even more OCs to go up to 5 or 6. 4 is no magic number. Anyway, great find and mad props to OP if this would make it into high level play.
On December 06 2010 15:46 iEchoic wrote: Here's some observations so far:
1) There's a problem I've noticed when you're reconciling these facts: - You need to secure a third base when you move out - You're creating an essentially disposable army (bio) - You can not build a planetary fortress
As a result, these things leave your expo undefended in the occurance that you end up trading armies with the zerg (usually banelings). Securing 3rd/4th expos is hard if your opponent goes very heavy blings/lings and ends up army trading with you on many maps.
2) I actually think this build is better suited for a jinro/immvp-style tank + bio than pure bio. The reason for this is that securing additional expansions is more valuable for you than your opponent because of your ability to maynard huge amounts of workers over because you get oversaturated very quickly. Siege tanks give you positional control.
I tried this build and failed pretty hilariously against an unorthodox build from PsY, I believe he's casting it, so check his channel.
Is there a reason why we are floating out a OC to a non-island? You could just build a Pfort for your attack timing. I think you definitely have the money to do it at that point. You were floating 1K when you pushed out in your rep.
I'm also curious why you built reactors instead of just more barracks. It really cut down on your unit count for your 1st major push.
Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG
Okay, so we have our counter for this build finally, a mass infestor build (Really an infestor rush actually since he played it blindly without scouting). I wonder if standard Zerg response to 2 Rax aggression and 2Rax FE can tech switch to Mass Infestors fast enough to beat the 10 Minute Mark if they scout the build from 7 minutes, and in large enough quantities to make a difference. Definitely a superior response from Ling Bling since you aren't just trading gas and minerals with the Terran.
If this build were to be nerfed, I'd imagine it would be through starting energy... not enough to cripple standard Terran plays, but enough to adversely affect how soon this build turns investment into huge profits.
Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG
TBH I think you should've just used 2-3 bunkers to wall-off as opposed to raxes to wall off, you would have saved a lot more marines from FG/infested terrans, since you can't FG bunkers. Because he was 1basing, he also definitely did not have the gas to both mass infestor AND get a sizeable bling force to break the bunkers. You would have bought more than enough time to tech to medivacs. Zerg was 1-basing it for SOO long. I wouldn't call infestor rush a counter a counter.
On December 07 2010 02:20 Bixs wrote: Isn't this build suppose to be a response to a zerg FE?
I personally would not put up multiple OC's if I see the zerg sticking to one base, that's just asking for trouble?
You're able to do this while sticking to one base. Since saturation isn't an issue you can overmule your main. The only issue is you'll run out of minerals faster, but then you can just transfer workers/mules to other bases once you push out. If zerg attacks you can turtle pretty well with bunkers and other buildings in case of baneling busts/roach rush. If you see him going one base, I recommend waiting a bit to grab your expansion
guys, just stop posting about this in the battle.net. those people just suck very much and they dun bother to learn how to play this game. now abuse this strategy until blizz nerf this.
On December 06 2010 15:46 iEchoic wrote: Here's some observations so far:
1) There's a problem I've noticed when you're reconciling these facts: - You need to secure a third base when you move out - You're creating an essentially disposable army (bio) - You can not build a planetary fortress
As a result, these things leave your expo undefended in the occurance that you end up trading armies with the zerg (usually banelings). Securing 3rd/4th expos is hard if your opponent goes very heavy blings/lings and ends up army trading with you on many maps.
2) I actually think this build is better suited for a jinro/immvp-style tank + bio than pure bio. The reason for this is that securing additional expansions is more valuable for you than your opponent because of your ability to maynard huge amounts of workers over because you get oversaturated very quickly. Siege tanks give you positional control.
I tried this build and failed pretty hilariously against an unorthodox build from PsY, I believe he's casting it, so check his channel.
Is there a reason why we are floating out a OC to a non-island? You could just build a Pfort for your attack timing. I think you definitely have the money to do it at that point. You were floating 1K when you pushed out in your rep.
I'm also curious why you built reactors instead of just more barracks. It really cut down on your unit count for your 1st major push.
I really need to try marine/tank/raven with this
I personally float an oc over to another mineral base, even if its not an island and focus all mules there, not worrying about an scv transfer. That way the main and natural don't mine out as fast. Most people aren't used to you grabbing a third that early. If the enemy discovers it, you can just float it back to safety depending on positions since there's no economic dependency on that keeping that base. If you can have two sets of 4 mules mine from there you should get more than enough money to justify the risk. Usually the risk of grabbing a third you can't defend isn't just the 550 for the OC, but the 1450 in minerals for the workers/gas.
im sorry but i dotn see how a heavy aggresisve player wouldnt smash this. by th etime u have 4 CC's your unit count will be soo low u wont have a chance vs a strong 1 base play. even a aggressive 2 base zerg would run u over
this is all based on the enemy being a idiot and letting you take full advantage of 4 OC's
This build is just awesome, just practiced a few games vs. Hard AI
I have not been able to continue to amass marines AND grab an expo/nat before 5 min, until this build came out. I've been able to get 4 BC AND 20+ marines by 15min consistently.
4 OCs is the critical mass to get the insane income to fund depots, marines, upgrades AND grab a THIRD expo before 15min on B.Sands. Having 4 OCs also make it ridiculously easy to pump out 20 SCVs in one go.
Edit: Love the fact I can now safely hide the 4 Starports churning out the critical mass of BCs in the back while I keep pressure on Z by trading armies with near continuous waves of marines.
I loved the game psy casted b/w him and iechoic. That was quite hilarious and I doubt most zerg could anticipate such a build in the first place without doing what psy did.
On December 07 2010 03:20 PhiliBiRD wrote: im sorry but i dotn see how a heavy aggresisve player wouldnt smash this. by th etime u have 4 CC's your unit count will be soo low u wont have a chance vs a strong 1 base play. even a aggressive 2 base zerg would run u over
this is all based on the enemy being a idiot and letting you take full advantage of 4 OC's
You obviously didn't read the OP.
Early 2 rax pressure will stop most zerg from droning up and buy 35s of critical time for the CCs to finish morphing into OCs.
Care demonstrate how you'll be able to push back the opening 5 marines + SCVs AND destroy 1 rax before the next wave of marine/marauders are ready to push out again?
Went against this build a few times. Very powerful build, can be stopped (at least the pure infantry/infantry tank variations), but only on certain maps. Looking forward to seeing other army compositions off this build. There is a lot of potential to yet be explored.
lets get more replays please! I havent had a chance to view the ones Senorcuidado posted yet, but we need more replays to scrutinize before we can call this ridiculously effective sounding build ridiculously effective! Looking forward to it.
On December 07 2010 03:20 PhiliBiRD wrote: im sorry but i dotn see how a heavy aggresisve player wouldnt smash this. by th etime u have 4 CC's your unit count will be soo low u wont have a chance vs a strong 1 base play. even a aggressive 2 base zerg would run u over
this is all based on the enemy being a idiot and letting you take full advantage of 4 OC's
This build takes advantage of the fact that there are currently 2 other builds with identical openings visible from the ramp, 2 Rax aggro and 2 Rax FE... simply put, since this build is presently very new, a lot of the zerg players scout the ramp, see 2 Rax + the first OC and then assume it's a 2 Rax FE build and go for their own expansion and try to econ up since that's a standard response to 2 Rax FE.
By the time they try to scout with OL sac, there are usually enough marines around to kill the Ovie before it sees the Third or Fourth OC which is the information this build most desires to keep a secret, like how 2 Rax FE tries its best to hide their tech buildings... so essentially these Zerg are forced into playing a blind game with only the knowledge that it may be 2 Rax FE into a tech play, or it could be 4 OC Mass MM or Pure Marine. There is a lot of uncertainty a Zerg player has to dispell in order to play effectively against it. The initial pressure creates this uncertainty because what happens if they call it wrong and go with a build designed to timing push against 4 OC when it turns out it is a 2 Rax All-In or a 2 Rax FE into Siege Tech? Very bad things end up happening.
It's more or less like calling 2 Rax All-In a bad build because its easy to auto-win against with 1 Base Roaches or Sling/Bling, or 2 Base Sling/Bling with larva spent on units instead of drones to complete saturation of the minerals... something the 4 OC build btw, seems to deal with very well by forcing the zerg to spend itself into the gutter while sniping the third constantly.
Any unit comp that comes off this build will be inherently mineral-heavy, since mules power mins but not gas. That is, it will have to be marine heavy (or hellion heavy I suppose).
I wonder how a 3 base infestor/bling/roach build would work against this? Even the mech variant would not be as gas-heavy as a normal mech army so your tank count should be relatively low.
On December 07 2010 05:48 farseerdk wrote: Any unit comp that comes off this build will be inherently mineral-heavy, since mules power mins but not gas. That is, it will have to be marine heavy (or hellion heavy I suppose).
I wonder how a 3 base infestor/bling/roach build would work against this? Even the mech variant would not be as gas-heavy as a normal mech army so your tank count should be relatively low.
One thing I suggested earlier is floating the third OC to an island or rocked off expansion, then build 2 refineries to run off 3 base gas while abusing mules to keep Marines pumping out at about the expected rate so you can then start to tech. One preliminary test I made had me at 650 Gas/Min by 10:00, at which point I was able to start pumping Thors out of 3 Factories with Infantry 2/2 researching and Vehicle 1/1 starting... along with the 250 MM Cannons finished.
I'm a noob so I'm certain someone with better micro and macro could cut a minute or two off the timing without sacrificing much economy or marine production.
Tried this a few times in the past week, very strong build if playing against a passive opponent. I modified it to going for a risky gold third or even second if open to increase this mineral income, and attacking before maxed (I usually try to move out around 140 to trade armies, trading armies earlier to dissuade the opponent from going too much econ). One thing I noticed was that this strategy is ineffective against turtling terrans who take a fast expansion then defend with marine tank. A seige line means I cant trade armies, but there are ways to get around this. In 2v2, you can take your partner's natural for more secure income, but loses out to early double rush aggression.
One mistake I make frequently with this strategy is that I dont build as many SCVs, just because I'm using all the minerals to throw down more raxes or just spamming marine marauder. Overall, high potential for this strat, very interested to see what other people can evolve this to.
Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG
TBH I think you should've just used 2-3 bunkers to wall-off as opposed to raxes to wall off, you would have saved a lot more marines from FG/infested terrans, since you can't FG bunkers. Because he was 1basing, he also definitely did not have the gas to both mass infestor AND get a sizeable bling force to break the bunkers. You would have bought more than enough time to tech to medivacs. Zerg was 1-basing it for SOO long. I wouldn't call infestor rush a counter a counter.
I was expecting either a bling bust or 1base muta more than mass infestor. 3 bunkers would be worse against those two than a solid wall (because that's 3 turrets I could have built). I could have spread my marines out in the future, it was just so unexpected.
On the other hand, I never could have moved out without getting decimated by fungals at any point in the game, even if I didn't lose my marines. That's why I think tanks are sort of essential because locking into bio is dangerous when you forfeit early-mid-game aggression by making 4 OCs. I like tank + bio much more than pure bio partially because of weird strats like this.
On December 07 2010 05:30 Teddyjex wrote: lets get more replays please! I havent had a chance to view the ones Senorcuidado posted yet, but we need more replays to scrutinize before we can call this ridiculously effective sounding build ridiculously effective! Looking forward to it.
Same! In particular I'm looking for tvt and pvt since I'm trying to work on builds for those matchups. I haven't lost a single tvz matchup yet, even when I get successfully baneling busted/scv wiped out by fast muta/nydus in base, but I'm trying to figure out how to stabilize the build for the other matchups and would love others approaches to it. Atm vs t I end up getting risky victories based on trickery as opposed to a solid build in the early game.
I would love to upload some solid TvZ at the 2500 rating, but currently all zergs (that I meet) are either 6 pooling, 1 baseing or dying to 2 rax pressure..
EDIT: And now there is maintenance, because of some stupid expansion release, I do not know why they even bother. My starcraft 2 is crashing at startup now -.-.
Using this build's economy to produce near continuous waves of 30+ marines seem to be more effective than a giant ball'o'doom which leaves time for recovery and is vulnerable to FG
TBH I think you should've just used 2-3 bunkers to wall-off as opposed to raxes to wall off, you would have saved a lot more marines from FG/infested terrans, since you can't FG bunkers. Because he was 1basing, he also definitely did not have the gas to both mass infestor AND get a sizeable bling force to break the bunkers. You would have bought more than enough time to tech to medivacs. Zerg was 1-basing it for SOO long. I wouldn't call infestor rush a counter a counter.
I was expecting either a bling bust or 1base muta more than mass infestor. 3 bunkers would be worse against those two than a solid wall (because that's 3 turrets I could have built). I could have spread my marines out in the future, it was just so unexpected.
On the other hand, I never could have moved out without getting decimated by fungals at any point in the game, even if I didn't lose my marines. That's why I think tanks are sort of essential because locking into bio is dangerous when you forfeit early-mid-game aggression by making 4 OCs. I like tank + bio much more than pure bio partially because of weird strats like this.
Yeah, good Infestor use is impossible to deal with without tanks. You can try banshees but Tanks are the most reliable.
I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through.
On December 07 2010 10:30 Griffith` wrote: I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through.
On December 07 2010 10:30 Griffith` wrote: I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through.
Do you get the 250 cannon upgrade?
Its optional (IE. You have time/room for it) If your goal is to base raid/deny expos, it is quite useful.
On December 07 2010 10:30 Griffith` wrote: I've started going simply Marine Marauder Thor these days, mainly because thors just build so insanely fast for their cost and makes it easier to burn through the money. Esp when you have like 6 thors for the first push they just make such a nice wall that makes it really hard to bust through.
Yeah, Thors are definitely good resource sink units and the fact that the armory gets you faster upgrades is great as well. Enjoy it while it lasts though, I think that competent Zergs will figure this out eventually.
Speaking of which, any of your Zergies begin trying to deal with this? :DDDD
Well I used this 4OC build, and I am a 100 point platnium player and I destroyed a 1.9k Diamond Zerg with it. Although there were times when he could of beaten me. (this was the first time I used 4OC on ladder) This build works even better on maps that allow for an easy 3rd expansion. I love spamming those MULEs and just getting a tonne of minerals. But the constant production or Marines and Marauders is really awesome!
I did make a few mistakes with the build the first time I used it but it has brought me much success (I tried again later with a 2.3k Zerg, I gave him a run for his money but he just came out on top in the end. I should of shut down his constant baneling attack a lot earlier but I just didn't think)
So far I am pretty happy with this build. Well done Griffith` you have developed a pretty awesome build.
I've been having moderate success with the build, its very beneficial late game I find especially if your able to take expansions when you attack. I usually don't wait for the 200/200; however, even if I attack when we have the same PSI I am able to bring in re-enforcements a lot faster then most of my opponents.
PS - Love this build and its awesome against macro Z players in mid-late game. Early harass with marines allows you the time to either take 2nd expo early with OC+Bunker or get more Rax's up. Very impressed with the creativity, keep it up man.
I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. EDIT: didn't realize infestor nerf has been revered - sigh.
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy.
On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote: I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build
So how many Zerg players inadvertently suicided whole packs of Mutas thinking it a Stimmed Marine drop? Lol.
This is such a fun build to watch the replays for I'll admit. I want to see some of the 3 Thorship Snipes in the replays.
Hehe, somehow watching others use this new MMM (Make More Marines) as a viable solution for Colossi, Roaches, Ling/Bling, 4 Warpgate Rush, 5RR, 7RR, and various other Zerg builds and some protoss builds makes me laugh with glee... sorta like when I saw TLO beat a cannon contain using Nydus Worm + Drones and a queen.
On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote: I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy.
On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote: I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy.
On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote: I've been experimenting with another hilarious transition.
Start with a transition into Marine Marauder Thor, after your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.
Ultimately, you want to go for the awesome combo:
3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.
This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. Furthermore, with the upcoming fungal growth nerf, it will be even infestor proof!
The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build it actually because relatively easy.
Medivacs can still unload while fungaled, but your Thors would probably die to mass speedlings.
Will the speedlings get them before the hatch gets sniped? It takes what, 8 seconds to deal the damage and an additional 2 seconds before they can attempt to withdraw?
It takes 6 seconds total (source: liquipedia), if unscouted, it will take at least 2 seconds to react, and 4 seconds for the speedlings to move there, and 4 seconds to kill the 3 thors.
somewhat off topic, but i faced some terrans doing similar things to me as protoss. I abused the fact that he couldn't possibly be teching fast enough to do anything about +range colossi, and killed him as soon as the upgrade finished. Just a note that this is _probably_ a bad idea vs protoss.
Possibly zerg could respond to the OCs by expanding + teching as well? As I understand it, pretty much all hive tech stomps the compositions you suggested.
On December 07 2010 15:54 Griffith` wrote: It takes 6 seconds total (source: liquipedia), if unscouted, it will take at least 2 seconds to react, and 4 seconds for the speedlings to move there, and 4 seconds to kill the 3 thors.
It's 8 seconds they have to do it in. It takes 2 seconds to enter it's barrage mode, then it starts dealing the damage for 6 seconds, at the end of which it takes 2 seconds to exit barrage mode.
So the hatchery would be dead in about 8 seconds of the thors being dropped. The Ling's ability to kill the thors are severely hampered if the Thors are dropped in a tripod configuration reducing available surface area for the ling surround to be able to dps any one of them, or worst case scenario, they are dropped in amongst the minerals in a tight group allowing for the minerals to further reduce surface area for ling DPS.
I imagine a 4th Dropship with 4 Hellions (Blue Flame or not) could be incorporated a little bit later into the match.
If you are feeling particularly sadistic, you can even drop a one or two mules around your Thors to screw with the AI a little bit since they won't spawn repairing and thus will be ignored by the ling AI if they simply A-Move.
On December 07 2010 16:03 Keilah wrote: somewhat off topic, but i faced some terrans doing similar things to me as protoss. I abused the fact that he couldn't possibly be teching fast enough to do anything about +range colossi, and killed him as soon as the upgrade finished. Just a note that this is _probably_ a bad idea vs protoss.
Possibly zerg could respond to the OCs by expanding + teching as well? As I understand it, pretty much all hive tech stomps the compositions you suggested.
They stomp the compositions, but from what I've been seeing in the replays, the unending stream of units simply forces the Zerg to spend themselves into the ground. With a little micro, Marines actually trade fairly favorably against Zerg Gas units with exception to Brood Lords, and if you see a lot of the replays, once 9 minute marker passes, the Marine or MM Spam forces the zerg to keep spending gas on units rather than tech just to keep alive. The biggest spending of gas that was more or less wasted that I've seen in the games has been the 8 or so Mutalisks you almost universally see in these replays, so that's probably the room for teching you are looking for since they have never paid for themselves through harassment due to the Turret spam.
On December 07 2010 16:03 Keilah wrote: somewhat off topic, but i faced some terrans doing similar things to me as protoss. I abused the fact that he couldn't possibly be teching fast enough to do anything about +range colossi, and killed him as soon as the upgrade finished. Just a note that this is _probably_ a bad idea vs protoss.
Possibly zerg could respond to the OCs by expanding + teching as well? As I understand it, pretty much all hive tech stomps the compositions you suggested.
They stomp the compositions, but from what I've been seeing in the replays, the unending stream of units simply forces the Zerg to spend themselves into the ground. With a little micro, Marines actually trade fairly favorably against Zerg Gas units with exception to Brood Lords, and if you see a lot of the replays, once 9 minute marker passes, the Marine or MM Spam forces the zerg to keep spending gas on units rather than tech just to keep alive. The biggest spending of gas that was more or less wasted that I've seen in the games has been the 8 or so Mutalisks you almost universally see in these replays, so that's probably the room for teching you are looking for since they have never paid for themselves through harassment due to the Turret spam.
Likewise, after zerg loses their inital zergling/baneling composition, reinforcing groups of mm can use marauder slow on speed bane to nullify any effect while the upgraded marines can take them out before they can get in melee range. Since zerg can't produce enough zerglings to distract the a move groups of mm, banelings become useless.
Now, an interesting possibility for a counter has come to mind. If one were to use the gas usually wasted on Mutas to instead make 8 or so Overseers, contaminate could create a window of opportunity for the zerg to rebuild their macro and push against the Terran, especially if energy was pooled beforehand.
8x Contaminate could block in excess of 12 Marines under production, or delay the Orbitals transformation if it's an overseer you use to scout the base around 7-9 and spot the play.
On December 08 2010 03:16 Conrose wrote: Now, an interesting possibility for a counter has come to mind. If one were to use the gas usually wasted on Mutas to instead make 8 or so Overseers, contaminate could create a window of opportunity for the zerg to rebuild their macro and push against the Terran, especially if energy was pooled beforehand.
8x Contaminate could block in excess of 12 Marines under production, or delay the Orbitals transformation if it's an overseer you use to scout the base around 7-9 and spot the play.
40 turrets stopping mutas isn't going to stop overseers?
I don't think anyone has answered this question straight up but what do you do against the 2 base baneling bust. You know the one that has the ability to kill your wall of raxes?
On December 08 2010 06:59 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't think anyone has answered this question straight up but what do you do against the 2 base baneling bust. You know the one that has the ability to kill your wall of raxes?
The 2 base baneling bust requires at least 15 banelings for each rax. + any additional banelings for bunkers. Wall of with raxes and place marines behind them. The 2 base baneling strat would literally need to be an all-in to work.
On December 08 2010 06:59 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't think anyone has answered this question straight up but what do you do against the 2 base baneling bust. You know the one that has the ability to kill your wall of raxes?
You should be fine if you bunker up properly along with barracks/engineering bays. Even if they break through and can take out a number of SCVs(which you should use to assist the defense), you'll be able to recover quicker than they're able to recover their numbers. Just rebuild your wall, and be sure to expand with a solid wall for that. I had someone 2 base baneling bust and take out my expo cc, and the nice thing is you already have a replacement ready so it doesn't affect you too much, and just build another one as you replace it. Basically if they go for your army, you can replenish those units faster then they can, if they go for your mineral line, well again 4 ccs can replace those easily enough and mules are by nature temporary anyways.You just need to defeat the units that get in, if you can do that the damage they inflict is negligible.
On December 08 2010 03:16 Conrose wrote: Now, an interesting possibility for a counter has come to mind. If one were to use the gas usually wasted on Mutas to instead make 8 or so Overseers, contaminate could create a window of opportunity for the zerg to rebuild their macro and push against the Terran, especially if energy was pooled beforehand.
8x Contaminate could block in excess of 12 Marines under production, or delay the Orbitals transformation if it's an overseer you use to scout the base around 7-9 and spot the play.
40 turrets stopping mutas isn't going to stop overseers?
Look again at the replays, you'll see where all the Turrets are.
Here's a hint, they aren't near the Raxes.
Not to mention they aren't up until after the OC's start to finish. It could be possible for an early Overseer to scout the build and Contaminate the Second CC while it's upgrading to OC.
On December 08 2010 06:59 Antisocialmunky wrote: I don't think anyone has answered this question straight up but what do you do against the 2 base baneling bust. You know the one that has the ability to kill your wall of raxes?
The 2 base baneling bust requires at least 15 banelings for each rax. + any additional banelings for bunkers. Wall of with raxes and place marines behind them. The 2 base baneling strat would literally need to be an all-in to work.
It is an all-in but it works frequently vs 2 Rax walls by either taking down the depot(red herring since most people put their orbital behind it) or both Barracks with splash(because you can if you aim the blings well). The main weakness is that with a build that delays Raxes for CCs, by taking out the 2 Rax, you have no production left and you don't have tanks to help defend against the ensuing torrent of speedlings.
Which is why you wall off at the bottom of the ramp. Don't get gas yet until you get at least 3 rax + bunker + 2 OC up.
Make a bunker in front of rax and one behind rax. When i do this strat i usually make multiple bunkers and bunker creep up to the zerg natural with mass rax and OC.
On December 08 2010 13:39 tournamentnow wrote: Which is why you wall off at the bottom of the ramp. Don't get gas yet until you get at least 3 rax + bunker + 2 OC up.
Make a bunker in front of rax and one behind rax. When i do this strat i usually make multiple bunkers and bunker creep up to the zerg natural with mass rax and OC.
That's even worse because your builders are easier to pick off, lings have more surface area to screw with your buildings, Roaches get better concave on your dudes because you are stuck with a concave the size of the ramp, and its even easier to blow up both rax with baneling splash.
yes after 1 embarassing loss to an all-in sling/bling bust i somehow failed to scan I suddenly realised that the way to win is to:
1) not blindly drop 3 CCs down - start with expo first, then 3rd, then wait, scout and see 2) you can never have too many bunkers, in fact you can fake them out by not fully loading them with marines
since then i have been laying down at least 4 bunkers if i scout a sizeable unit mass or banelings...sometimes 6. I stagger them at the nat and only fully fill the ones in the back. enjoy wasting 18 banelings on bunkers with 1-2 marines in them. that's enough disincentive to hold the bumrush, then the 4th OC goes down. once i take the island/rock expo my stream of marines are going to eventually take those bling numbers down. never lost since.
i don;t think you know how to wall off properly. i can make it auto win if zerg wastes a ton of banes into my rax. see the 1st rax you make at bottom of ramp? you can make1-2 marines then float it and then add several more rax as appropriate. then make a bunkers in front of wall and some behind wall. the zerg will then waste more banelings. just don't clump up the bunkers.
if you want to have a strong economy, dont get gas trust me if you know opponent all in banelings/etc. all you really need is just enough bunkers .
On December 08 2010 13:57 tournamentnow wrote: i don;t think you know how to wall off properly. i can make it auto win if zerg wastes a ton of banes into my rax. see the 1st rax you make at bottom of ramp? you can make1-2 marines then float it and then add several more rax as appropriate. then make a bunkers in front of wall and some behind wall. the zerg will then waste more banelings. just don't clump up the bunkers.
if you want to have a strong economy, dont get gas trust me if you know opponent all in banelings/etc. all you really need is just enough bunkers .
Reps to support this would be nice. It doesn't sound like we are playing the same game. There's no way the timings work out like that after delaying extra production facilities for 2 CCs.
Will the speedlings get them before the hatch gets sniped? It takes what, 8 seconds to deal the damage and an additional 2 seconds before they can attempt to withdraw?
You can queue the thors to enter their medivacs as soon as they finish casting. I used to do it all the time to practice on AI. Found it didn't work so good on ladder.
Kudos for Griffith for the idea. Threat from mass anything on the front door will keep a player from peeking at his back. Esp. if the thorship is pushed out with a bio-ball that takes at least 10 seconds to kill off.
Infestors can't be in two places at the same time. :D Unless they get a nydus.
yea this build is only good on paper, not in practice. Building command centers instead of supply depots is a good choice in that they pay forthemselves very quickly but 400 x2 + 150 x2 = 1100 minerals on the two extra CCs + lost mining time making them, you will always be behind in army and in tech with this build, until you hit mid-late game.
Please lets dispel the idea that having 4 CCs on 2 base is like being on 4 base because its NOT. Being on 4 base means ~having 80-100 workers constantly mining, The only thing exta CCs give u is more Mules which are equivalent to 4-6 workers. So yes you will be mining more from 2 bases and have a larger income than any other 2 base race but once again it is NOT like being on 4 bases.
I would say this is not a viable build past ~1500 diamond mark as you can't just invest 1100 minerals early on and not get punished for it.
On December 07 2010 15:10 Griffith` wrote: The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box. EDIT: didn't realize infestor nerf has been revered - sigh.
So is this just assuming that your marine harassment will make the hardest race to doom drop somehow neglect awareness of his base? Is he spending so much on banes that he can't get overlord speed upgrade?
On December 08 2010 20:32 dbkim92 wrote: PsyStarcrafts's youtube channel has a latest video of him destroying iEchoic who used this 4OC build by using infestors
that game was just hilarious, psy played pretty bad (he even lols at his own macro/eco) yet totally owns Echoic despite a very heavy walloff. Great entertainment and info!
I don't get why terrans don't get a inbase OC after taking a natural, no need to be too greedy with 4 OC, 3 OC should be enough too keep up econ and, float the 3rd to an expansion in a good timing and make 1-2 OC's in base? 6 gas, 5 OC, should get you on par with Zerg?
Btw, the mules only last for 67.5 ±0.10 seconds on "Faster" and mines at equal to 5 Scvs ±0.5 you only get like 20 temporary scvs for the 4 mules ( ignores saturation )
12mins faster/irl time = 16minutes normal
You'd only get 3 bases worth with 2 bases at 48 scvs on blue minerals+4mules
I've been using this the past few days and it has worked surprisingly well against most zergs I've played in the 1500 - 1900 range. I've only failed to one-base all-in zerg play (roaches or baneling busts), which I would say is a correct response to this.
I have also started walling in the bottom of the ramp on my most maps with close naturals. I feel denying the drone scout is important enough to take the early risk. I also think that Zergs get too much information when they send a ling up the ramp when you wall off up top. I can then use that initial barracks as the start of a wall around the natural.Once you get the natural up with tons of rax, the zerg will have a hard time of it.
trying this build in the bronze league has fairly been a solid win for me, I don't even have to wall off, the productivity keeps them in a complete panic, and after I got good @ this build, they generally give up before the 10 min mark, hopefully this helps me get out of bronze and into @ least silver
On December 08 2010 21:52 visselli wrote: yea this build is only good on paper, not in practice. Building command centers instead of supply depots is a good choice in that they pay forthemselves very quickly but 400 x2 + 150 x2 = 1100 minerals on the two extra CCs + lost mining time making them, you will always be behind in army and in tech with this build, until you hit mid-late game.
Please lets dispel the idea that having 4 CCs on 2 base is like being on 4 base because its NOT. Being on 4 base means ~having 80-100 workers constantly mining, The only thing exta CCs give u is more Mules which are equivalent to 4-6 workers. So yes you will be mining more from 2 bases and have a larger income than any other 2 base race but once again it is NOT like being on 4 bases.
I would say this is not a viable build past ~1500 diamond mark as you can't just invest 1100 minerals early on and not get punished for it.
You cannot be serious? There have been lots of submitted replays, this is viable at high diamond (2500ish), at least atm. due to the insane pressure marines/bio can put on zerg and that the composition mainly is mineral bound.
The real question is whether it would work aganist good zergs that early expand. (Even though this seems kinda irrelevent when alot of zergs lose to 2 rax pressure anyway)
Edit: And where is the intuition to go 4 OC when zerg is 1 baseing? "Oh, zerg is not expanding! That must mean I shouldn't expect any kind of aggression! I'l go make 4 command centers! ... seriously?".
On December 08 2010 22:48 pAzand wrote: I don't get why terrans don't get a inbase OC after taking a natural, no need to be too greedy with 4 OC, 3 OC should be enough too keep up econ and, float the 3rd to an expansion in a good timing and make 1-2 OC's in base? 6 gas, 5 OC, should get you on par with Zerg?
It is too difficult to defend the 3rd early on for most maps mainly due to threat of sling/bling runbys. The investment sunk into defending a third, bunker + 4 marines +4 turrets + SCVs to mine is usually greater than what can be handled. You should only ease into a 3rd during your pressure push.
As for 4 or 3 OC, oddly enough I've found that 3OC is a bit easier than 4OC on close spawn positions on maps like LT/Meta
Tried using this build for the first time in a couple of 4v4s I played with my friends. Needless to say the minerals I was receiving (and not spending) was quite ridiculous. This was made especially true since holding bases is a lot easier when you've got allies to help you defend. I pretty much fed my whole team, running off 4-5 bases at a time with around 15-20 rax (not full sat on every base).
Imo. 4 oc is one too much. It delays the pressure too much and allows zerg to drone up a bit too much. Either way you'll notice I have way too many ressources at the end 5k mineral? I just didn't have enough raxes to keep up and zerg, properbly didn't have enough larva.
On December 08 2010 21:52 visselli wrote: yea this build is only good on paper, not in practice. Building command centers instead of supply depots is a good choice in that they pay forthemselves very quickly but 400 x2 + 150 x2 = 1100 minerals on the two extra CCs + lost mining time making them, you will always be behind in army and in tech with this build, until you hit mid-late game.
Please lets dispel the idea that having 4 CCs on 2 base is like being on 4 base because its NOT. Being on 4 base means ~having 80-100 workers constantly mining, The only thing exta CCs give u is more Mules which are equivalent to 4-6 workers. So yes you will be mining more from 2 bases and have a larger income than any other 2 base race but once again it is NOT like being on 4 bases.
I would say this is not a viable build past ~1500 diamond mark as you can't just invest 1100 minerals early on and not get punished for it.
You cannot be serious? There have been lots of submitted replays, this is viable at high diamond (2500ish), at least atm. due to the insane pressure marines/bio can put on zerg and that the composition mainly is mineral bound.
The real question is whether it would work aganist good zergs that early expand. (Even though this seems kinda irrelevent when alot of zergs lose to 2 rax pressure anyway)
Edit: And where is the intuition to go 4 OC when zerg is 1 baseing? "Oh, zerg is not expanding! That must mean I shouldn't expect any kind of aggression! I'l go make 4 command centers! ... seriously?".
I've won every match against zerg I've used this with since I practiced the execution of the build. I would point to Griffith's replays of zerg doing 5rr or 7rr as key examples on a close spawn map(steppes) of how successful this is to early pressure. If you see zerg one basing, double bunker, and reinforce the wall, if they fast hatch, ignore bunkers and get the cc's earlier and secure the expansion. In this case having the defender's advantage is more important than zerg's first mover advantage since they don't have a strong long ranged unit(such as hydra) or an air unit capable of getting by your wall.
This thread is now making me lol. I've defended this build vs tons of people, who all said it would never work and that any diamond zerg would absolutely crush it. So funny to see replays of people crushing 2.5k zergs with it now. I knew it would work. MULE math isn't bs. They spit out a CRAP-TON of minerals with zero negatives.
you know what, this is even funnier in custom 3v3s on arakan citadel. 4 oc to start, and then pushed on 200/200 off like 10 raxes (adding 5 more later). drop a scan and took tanks off the cliff, trash talked a little (because they trash talked me before the game started), big fight, whole army died while doing serious damage. Double expanded from gold to island and middle.
they replied with a "oops sorry" after my entire army died but without having scouted my base. 3+ minutes and 4 OCs later another mega army arrives at their front door with tank support. they go wtf and another big fight happens. whole army dies again but I take most of them out + their expos.
3 mins later again another horde of upgraded mm and 10 tanks roll towards their now rather diminished base. they called me the biggest cheater they ever saw. resource collection per minute is 3k+
Imo. 4 oc is one too much. It delays the pressure too much and allows zerg to drone up a bit too much. Either way you'll notice I have way too many ressources at the end 5k mineral? I just didn't have enough raxes to keep up and zerg, properbly didn't have enough larva.
P.S. Jungling this much micro macro is hard :S
The macro / micro is quite intense, I find my self getting supply blocked at least once between the 9-14 minutes, there's just SOO much production going on.
From playing this build In my experience 3 OC is better and is enough. 4 OC takes too long and by that time you'll need a raven to spot burrowed banelings/roach.
The most important thing about playing terran vs zerg is attack timing. When you watch your own replay, you'll see an average difference of 2-3 thousand more spent on technology(replay spending tab) than the zerg, and that is a lot of infrastructure( all those rax) and it is questionable whether brute forcing with mule spam is any good. Also have a look at the Units Lost tab(replay tab) and you'll see that there's almost a 1:1 ratio of units lost. If you built more than one turret per mineral line the technology difference becomes like closer to 3k worth of gas and minerals.
If terran is to win by efficiency then it means that the units lost difference(t-z) must be less than the spending on technology difference (t-z). That's very difficult to achieve.
On December 09 2010 03:11 shadymmj wrote: you know what, this is even funnier in custom 3v3s on arakan citadel. 4 oc to start, and then pushed on 200/200 off like 10 raxes (adding 5 more later). drop a scan and took tanks off the cliff, trash talked a little (because they trash talked me before the game started), big fight, whole army died while doing serious damage. Double expanded from gold to island and middle.
they replied with a "oops sorry" after my entire army died but without having scouted my base. 3+ minutes and 4 OCs later another mega army arrives at their front door with tank support. they go wtf and another big fight happens. whole army dies again but I take most of them out + their expos.
3 mins later again another horde of upgraded mm and 10 tanks roll towards their now rather diminished base. they called me the biggest cheater they ever saw. resource collection per minute is 3k+
Just tried this build vs a 1900 diamond and won so easy it wasnt even funny. I'm 1700 diamond not that great but hey it worked for me I will be using it again
I switch between this build and a banshee harass build...I'm currently winning around 75% of tvz matchups. We should lock and delete this thread before people catch on
I haven't seen any high quality replays of aggressive zergs on maps with wide open naturals to completely convince me of this build's effectiveness yet...
I tried this build funny enough on blistering sands. 4 Orbital commands allowed me to support about 7 rax as I did not feel like waiting for 200/200 supply to push on a small map like that. My zerg opponent went pure hydra. I dont know why, but its the second time ive seen a zerg do that on the ladder. The MM with 1/1 stim and shield traded out evenly versus the hydras. I just continued producing from the ridiculous economy you get through all the mules and a constant stream of units arriving at his base pissed him off enough to not even say gg.
When the zerg sacks an overlord in your base and scouts like two CC just chilling if he is smart he will realise A. In four or five minutes he is going to die if he does not stop this, as to me it is similiar to expanding to a third and not taking geysers lol B. There are only two barracks producing only marines, and how effecting a ling roach all in will be against this, maybe b-lings.
So I think 4OC is too greedy, as any SC2 zerg player with a functioning brain will never let this ultra economy establish.
Just tried this build for the first time last night. Went 4-0 against Zerg. I am a horrible player, but the income helps me have TONS more stuff than the Zerg. Thank you OP for the OP build!
This is the future of Terran I think. Or at least, if not this particular 4OC build (although this looks great at the moment), then the in general concept of extra OCs for mule abuse. The extra Supply + Zerglike production, when combined with the inherant power and efficiency of Terran units, just makes for a devastating combo. It's not unbeatable--no build is, and no build should be. But the potential is there to be very, very dangerous.
Which makes me happy. Zerg macro and lategame are already insane, and Chronoboost is currently grossly underused by even Pro-level Toss (watch any Pro Protoss and by mid to late game they're just sitting there with 200 energy on all their nexuses), which makes me think Toss macro has a substantially higher ceiling than has currently been reached, which when combined with their crazy T3 units will just be terrifying.
And that's great. All 3 races *should* be scary as hell if you let them play an unhindered economic game. Zerg and to a lesser extent Protoss being lategame races while Terran all-ins is just dumb.
On December 03 2010 05:09 Itrees wrote: Fascinating. Two extra OCs costs 400 mins per CC, plus another 150 per for the upgrade, meaning 550 per OC, 1100 min total? If a mule is 300 mins, that means you're back to even after just 4 mule calldowns, which should happen , so after the fourth mule calldown, it's all profit.
I can see why this might've worked really well on jungle basin.
One mule mines up to 270 minerals on [Blue] minerals after 67.5±0.50 IRL seconds
Orbitals = 550 in total
Two Mules = 540 ( 480 ( 2x240 ) if you cast on far minerals ) minerals in total ( but only after 67.5±0.50 IRL seconds ) Orbitals start with 50 energy, first cast = free It pays for half of itself immediately after 67.5±0.50 IRL seconds if the first cast is timed exactly
First Orbital = 150 ( Main CC = free / - 400 ) Gain 120 minerals after 67.5±0.50 IRL seconds First Orbital starts producing 270 after the first cast every 67.5 IRL seconds
Mules only mine 270 if you mine the closest patches, further ones only get to 240 ( so find the patches with closer ones ) Call down supplies = 100 minerals instantly
The second one pays for itself after 2x67.5±0.50 IRL seconds
Since you have 4 Orbitals in total ( Main+3 extra ), you might as well build supply depots instead of using Call down supplies? It won't be instantly, but you'd get 170 more over all after 67.5±0.50 IRL seconds
you have... an armory at 20 minutes... 1/1 till 20 minutes
you could get stim/shield quicker ( you had the gas and at least two tech labs ) you'd have enough minerals if you had less energy on all 3 orbitals, given their energy, you'd mine like 600ish more minerals at that same time to support everything you were building + getting upgrades
you opened the depots for scvs to get attacked several times
one time you didn't go defend against it ( units outside but you didn't move them back in )
energy could be used 20 seconds earlier or immediately after upgrade
at some point, you had over 300 energy over the 3 orbitals ( sometimes even up to 500 energy over the 3 orbitals )
it wouldn't hurt to add a few turrets since you have 3 orbitals and possibly more scvs ( extra to expands shortly after need scvs/gas on expand your income should've exceeded 2000... but you were at like 800-1000 instead...
i had a game on xel naga caverns where the guy did not go baneling aggressive, and went mutas, and eventually lost.
and i told him i was going to get orbital first, its on my friends computer so i need to have him send me the replay.
i spawned top
he went heavy mutas after expand, he attacked me with 14 or so when i had like my 9th barracks about to finish. i decisively did not build turrets so i could have maximum army production, and just went for his base. i scanned at the moment he started to panic and morph a billion bane lings. they got there just before the eggs hatched so i was able to get a great position on him and lost all my army to his, with him having 6 mutas as the only survivors. at this point he could not have counter attacked my nat because his mutas set his econ back pretty seriously.
i quickly rebuilt a 140 food army, and killed his nat hatchery which had 200 hp left, and stagger stepped my mm until they were at his valley expo (in xel naga caverns, the one where u blow up the rocks) and suicided the rest of my army there because the banelings did not morph fast enough.
i then built about 15 bunkers in staggered position around the gold while he was at a bad 0 income state (i had no army at this point, but i could rebuild with a lot of money saved), and put in a marine or 2 in each, while researching building armor. i landed in the gold right when my nat/main ran out, and i've been ninja expoing the top left expo for 3 minutes at a time (before his mutas get there)
my bunkers (and tanks within them to stop banelings, at this point he was going pure banes like 20 in a control group) stopped him from running zergling raids into my valley expo, and he couldnt kill the tanks because they were in a bunker field 4 bunkers deep.
constant drops and a transition to tank to fight his eventuall ultra baneling infestor muta combo. which wrecked havock on my mmm + 3 tank army. i fell back to my 15 bunkers and he suicided a few ultras into them, thinking he had to have attacked.
i then rebuilt a maurauder thor tank and 10 marine army, and won by inching my position from the sight tower to his gold expo, while constantly doing drops on his 4th and 5th expos.
2.1k Terran here. I`ve been talking with Griffith a bit and been primarily using this strategy as a main in ladder/custom games in TvZ..I' see a lot of promise on it.I've beaten countless number of 1.9-2.4k zergs with this build while I do have my fair share of losses.
As mentioned in the thread..the strong point of this strategy is that it rips apart zergs which play passively and engage in the macro game with you. I mean, there's perfect reasoning of why a lot of zergs would react in this fashion simply because, that is zerg's goal to get to the late game have their 3-4 bases up and crush the T army.
The 200/200 army depends on not the 4 OC's but how fast you can secure the natural. As well of course, not getting supply blocked..keeping up macro/production of workers expenditure of mules etc...but how fast you secure your natural determines the kind of army you will end up having. If you view a lot fo the replays, the strategy it's been done is on Jungle basin, a map where the natural is free (practically), and has a large space to prepare for the 4OC build quite nicely. Zerg's counter to this would be to constantly pressure the natural, deny it as if you look at this build 1. Its heavy marine composition early (note the 31/32 gas) meaning very late tech so zerglings/bling pressure does really well in denying the Terran the accessibility to the minerals to create this horde of an army. If you can hold the natural long enough, the terran cannot retrieve that 200/200 army and what youre looking at is 140-150 composition for bioballl or mech play at the 15minute mark, which zerg should be easily capable of defending against.
So overall, it's somewhat map dependent. Maps like Xel Naga Caverns, Metapolis (unless cross positioned) not really recommended (due to the open ground and a lot of routes involved) Jungle basin, Shakuras Scrap or even a map like Lost Temple? By all means go for it.
Yeah, 4OC is pretty rough on metalopolis (esp close position). It's probably better to just 5-rax all-in or do the standard terran all-ins/cheese methods. Its kind of ironic now that close-positions are actually not too favorable for the 4OC setup mainly due to the 8-9 2base pressure from zerg.
Amended OP to include favorable/unfavorable map selection.
And also, I'd love to see 3v3 and 4v4 Videos of it... especially if one Terran goes 4 OC straight off while another goes 4OC shortly after the first 4 OC starts putting out the Bioball spam.
On December 10 2010 06:44 Conrose wrote: Any replays of the Mech transitions yet Griffith?
And also, I'd love to see 3v3 and 4v4 Videos of it... especially if one Terran goes 4 OC straight off while another goes 4OC shortly after the first 4 OC starts putting out the Bioball spam.
And can someone get a 4OC vs 4OC replay?
There are several 2.5k+ mech transitions demonstrating slow-push in several top in-houses, unfortunately I've also agreed to not release those replays yet (until the build becomes fairly mainstream) and also because they are preparing for several tournaments using it.
There's a lot of room for improvement in the execution aspect of mech transition, seeing how you can't just a-move your mech ball. Simultaneous micro/macro ability is critical. I can't pull it off well enough as I find that the instant I look away, my tanks get sniped or something along those lines.
I think CatsPajamas has a replay of an 8player 4OC FFA. (http://www.own3d.tv/video/45007/Viewer_FFA_only_using_4OC_build)
Out of curiosity to all the zerg ladder players, how often do you run across 4OC these days?
I was trying a similar strategy before I found this thread but I only had 3 OCs...although I lost the game terribly I did notice that I was easily able to keep up with the Zerg on 3 OCs...do you think 4 OCs is really necessary?
I was able to play on the Bronze Ladder for a few hours after the discussion of mass orbitals started with that other thread, but since that weekend I haven't been able to get back to a decent connection to see if 4OC was gaining ground in the Bronze League, or to test my proposed Overseer timing counter for this build. 2 Second latency is not exactly conducive to my success as a Zerg player.
I will get a chance when I return home for the holidays though.
On December 10 2010 07:49 RadicalEdwrd wrote: I was trying a similar strategy before I found this thread but I only had 3 OCs...although I lost the game terribly I did notice that I was easily able to keep up with the Zerg on 3 OCs...do you think 4 OCs is really necessary?
Personally I try to transition into 5 or 6 OC play once my production is up and going which lets me ninja mine with hidden expansions, not risking any scvs.
On December 10 2010 06:44 Conrose wrote: Any replays of the Mech transitions yet Griffith?
And also, I'd love to see 3v3 and 4v4 Videos of it... especially if one Terran goes 4 OC straight off while another goes 4OC shortly after the first 4 OC starts putting out the Bioball spam.
I've watched some of these replays and a lot of the Zerg's are just really bad in micro/macro. 2k NA players almost means nothing. I've beaten a lot of 2300+ Zergs lately and I'm a 1400+ Terran lol.
I watched the 2600+ game and I was sorely dissapointed by the bad decision making of the Zerg (he built a lot of fighting units but just waited until you attacked, his drone count was abysmal).
I definitely think this build has some merit, just needs to be a little more refined. Some extra APM could probably help this play a lot (your bio split needs to run your marines away from banes rather than all your marauders). I'm not a Zerg player but I think his muta timing was also off. No harassment from him so he basically let you macro.
I agree that extra APM would help alot. Most of the players (including me) still aren't quite accustomed-to or able-to-handle 2200 income 9 minutes into the game. I still find the hardest thing right now is to be able to macro with the right timing in addition to constant harassing.
have you tried adding ghosts at one point? most zerg dont keep their seer with them and even if you could snipe it fast and then just spam snipe to add insult to pain? might also be handy to flank and emp infestors?
Why do you guys stop at 4OC? And why not start with 3? This just seems so cookie cutter as it is being played.
Obviously if you scoout zerg taking a third, go ahead and go 4 or even 5 OC fast. If he's one basing, maybe just get 2-3. It seems like there needs to be some kind of modification depending on the game. It's painful watching these replays with the terran player staying at 4OC when he has 4 bases. You should have something like 2-3 OC per base. Obviously once you hit the ~8 mark scale this back, but until then OC should be replacing supply depots as much as possible.
Was wondering about a possible variation in tvt, where you go fast tanks, then once you start producing tanks, cut gas to only 3 workers and get the OCs, this way you have a stronger initial defense for the first push. The only issue is a vulnerability to banshees, but any economic damage that early in the game should be negated as long as you've started the 3 extra OCs to quickly replace the scvs lost.
On December 11 2010 00:20 NathanS wrote: Why do you guys stop at 4OC? And why not start with 3? This just seems so cookie cutter as it is being played.
Obviously if you scoout zerg taking a third, go ahead and go 4 or even 5 OC fast. If he's one basing, maybe just get 2-3. It seems like there needs to be some kind of modification depending on the game. It's painful watching these replays with the terran player staying at 4OC when he has 4 bases. You should have something like 2-3 OC per base. Obviously once you hit the ~8 mark scale this back, but until then OC should be replacing supply depots as much as possible.
I think there comes a point where it becomes overkill. When doing 3OC, it puts me "on-par" with zerg's economy throughout most of mid-game, the 4th OC I find is what gives me an economic advantage worth investing in.
As the old adage goes... be either hot or cold, never lukewarm. If you invest, commit to it and invest early.
Of course, if the zerg is expoing to a 4th or a 5th, by all means take your 4th, and 5th. But there really isn't a need to use OCs for use, a standard PF is fine, in mid-late game its more important to actually keep mining bases alive. 4 MULEs will last you all game.
On December 11 2010 00:20 NathanS wrote: Why do you guys stop at 4OC? And why not start with 3? This just seems so cookie cutter as it is being played.
Obviously if you scoout zerg taking a third, go ahead and go 4 or even 5 OC fast. If he's one basing, maybe just get 2-3. It seems like there needs to be some kind of modification depending on the game. It's painful watching these replays with the terran player staying at 4OC when he has 4 bases. You should have something like 2-3 OC per base. Obviously once you hit the ~8 mark scale this back, but until then OC should be replacing supply depots as much as possible.
I think there comes a point where it becomes overkill. When doing 3OC, it puts me "on-par" with zerg's economy throughout most of mid-game, the 4th OC I find is what gives me an economic advantage worth investing in.
As the old adage goes... be either hot or cold, never lukewarm. If you invest, commit to it and invest early.
Of course, if the zerg is expoing to a 4th or a 5th, by all means take your 4th, and 5th. But there really isn't a need to use OCs for use, a standard PF is fine, in mid-late game its more important to actually keep mining bases alive. 4 MULEs will last you all game.
if you ever find that you have a lot of minerals, not a lot of army, and in need of a third. build 20 bunkers around a middle ish expo, (most gold ones), in staggered formation, and put a few siege tanks in it.
feel free to withdraw from your savings account when checking balances run low
On December 09 2010 13:58 micjmac wrote: I haven't seen any high quality replays of aggressive zergs on maps with wide open naturals to completely convince me of this build's effectiveness yet...
I don't really favor this build anymore except on maps with islands because if the zerg reacts with tons of banelings and infestors and does zergling runbys on your 3rd, you can be in trouble, I played one game where I just got totally mined out by this kind of response, you really need a PF at your 3rd but instead you already have a OC you want to use. I suppose you could just build another CC and PF it, without sacrificing too much.
On December 11 2010 11:25 statikg wrote: I don't really favor this build anymore except on maps with islands because if the zerg reacts with tons of banelings and infestors and does zergling runbys on your 3rd, you can be in trouble, I played one game where I just got totally mined out by this kind of response, you really need a PF at your 3rd but instead you already have a OC you want to use. I suppose you could just build another CC and PF it, without sacrificing too much.
Are you still using the MM(+M) transition? The mech one is quite strong, blue flame hellions and tanks roll over sling/bling/infestor combos.
vVvNGry 4OCed in SCL finals against EGStrifeCro, amazing execution on his end. (He promised me a replay too, so stay tuned!)
I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
If you would like, I have more replays of it vs other top tier players per request.
When one of the Podcasters (Such as Husky or HD Starcraft) decides to cover that game, you can expect to see this build to go through countless revisions and variations
It's interesting in that replay when you look at the various resource related tabs.
For Units Lost, he's losing significantly less resource wise than the Zerg player was. When you look at the income tab, he was maintaining on par mineral income with the zerg player the majority of the game while using one of the OCs for frequent scans.
And then what I think was the biggest deal was the Spending tab... for most of the match, he was actually spending less (But not significantly so) on his army starting at the moment he begins his first push, he spent significantly less on economy, and absolutely blew away the technology spending at a 3 to 1 ratio.
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
On December 11 2010 15:48 Conrose wrote: It's interesting in that replay when you look at the various resource related tabs.
For Units Lost, he's losing significantly less resource wise than the Zerg player was. When you look at the income tab, he was maintaining on par mineral income with the zerg player the majority of the game while using one of the OCs for frequent scans.
And then what I think was the biggest deal was the Spending tab... for most of the match, he was actually spending less (But not significantly so) on his army starting at the moment he begins his first push, he spent significantly less on economy, and absolutely blew away the technology spending at a 3 to 1 ratio.
Well when I first found out about this build it was through a friend and not actually this thread specifically, so all I had to work with was 4OC opener and then transition to bio.
What I decided to do was focus the game around upgrades and teching slower to medivacs and tanks.
I'm pretty sure other transitions could work depending on each players playstyle.
On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
That's really disappointing. I was hoping that this build would give me a style that wouldn't require marine splitting to deal with banelings, since I'm not fast enough to make that work. I guess marine splitting is something you just have to learn to play TvZ at all now?
On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
That's really disappointing. I was hoping that this build would give me a style that wouldn't require marine splitting to deal with banelings, since I'm not fast enough to make that work. I guess marine splitting is something you just have to learn to play TvZ at all now?
You're telling me, I'm physically incapable of the level of APM required to make marines trade favorably vs Banelings (moderate nerve damage to the hands some decade ago), so I don't think I'll ever really get to enjoy this build in any real sense.
On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
That's really disappointing. I was hoping that this build would give me a style that wouldn't require marine splitting to deal with banelings, since I'm not fast enough to make that work. I guess marine splitting is something you just have to learn to play TvZ at all now?
You guys are thinking about this all wrong.
The reason why this build is so effective is that zerg usually wants to trade armies under the assumption they can rebuild and replenish more quickly than terran can. This build reverses those roles. Look to use multiple drops to draw the attention and army away from the Zerg and then push with your main army. Even if you exchange armies, your 10 barracks queued full of untis will replenish quickly enough to put you back to even and since his economy is most likely disrupted, he will not be able to come back.
I mean seriously guys, I go MMMTank off 8rax/1starport/1factory, throw down another factory and 4 rax when I hit 200/200 and I literally 1a zergs.
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
If you would like, I have more replays of it vs other top tier players per request.
I am very interested in seeing more replays.
You can probably make the rines split better by having ~30 split over 5-6 hotkeys ( do this before leaving your base ) and just press 1 2 3 4 5 6 to where you want them ( and stim them of course ) probably easier than doing it as the moment comes
It's somewhat interesting to see how he didn't do anything about the 5 marines+2medivacs in his base for at least 60+seconds those 5 rines probably did more damage than the other ground forces combined... even though he could've done much more and with less mistakes, he still manages to beat him...
He does have ~600 energy over 4 Orbitals at several points in the game though... seems like he could've won at an earlier point in time
Starting level 2 upgrades could've been done a bit earlier ( there's at least ~30 seconds after the 1/1 is done )
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
If you would like, I have more replays of it vs other top tier players per request.
I am very interested in seeing more replays.
You can probably make the rines split better by having ~30 split over 5-6 hotkeys ( do this before leaving your base ) and just press 1 2 3 4 5 6 to where you want them ( and stim them of course ) probably easier than doing it as the moment comes
It's somewhat interesting to see how he didn't do anything about the 5 marines+2medivacs in his base for at least 60+seconds those 5 rines probably did more damage than the other ground forces combined... even though he could've done much more and with less mistakes, he still manages to beat him...
He does have ~600 energy over 4 Orbitals at several points in the game though... seems like he could've won at an earlier point in time
Starting level 2 upgrades could've been done a bit earlier ( there's at least ~30 seconds after the 1/1 is done )
Hotkeying the marines into 5-6 hotkeys to micro banelings is probably not the best idea. I know there were errors during that game especially with upgrades( i think it was related to not grabbing my 4th geyser early enough) and the full energy over 4 OC was just a noob mistake :D
To people asking for more replays, I was practicing this build vs Rigid but I didn't save any of them so I lost it all in the folder due to playing a lot more games hahaha.
I'll post some more replays sometime within the week.
Here's a replay of a game I just played using this build. It goes further into the macro stages and more bases. I continue with just mass bio against banelings, lings, mutas, and ultralisks.
Another useful tip with splitting marines is try to practice it in the hard counter (custom map) there you can make a ball of lingbling run towards your marines and u can try and split them up to minimize damage.
tbh i´d be more interested in ways to avoid having the entire outcome of the match depending on my marine splitting skills instead of trying to improve on something that i know i will never be good at.... but maybe thats just because im a lazy, unskilled noob XD"
In that battle with the 3 ranks on the left side of the map in NGry's game, it might've been better if he just ran back a bit more the moment the banelings came. Not pulling all, but enough to allow for an extra volley from the tanks. Might give him a 10% more on surviving since that terrain is very narrow and doesn't allow for much room to do anything. This build is a bit more forgiving for the terran.
i have played this build in my last 5 TvZs and i really like it. I won 4 of them and the one i lost i fucked up. Very funny build even it wont last forever.
Just a question, what do you guys consider a good marine split?
When in position in a ball I was able to split so that 20 marines ended up winning against 20 speed banelings off creep...2 marines left, about the best I could manage regularly. Maybe 5 marines against non speed. As numbers get higher I could barely break even. This is when I know the banelings are coming.
In game of course sometimes I fumble, maybe 5 marines to 4 banelings is the ratio if I'm caught off guard on creep, which after all isn't so bad since mules more than make up for the minerals and he still loses on gas.
On December 13 2010 03:26 shadymmj wrote: Just a question, what do you guys consider a good marine split?
When in position in a ball I was able to split so that 20 marines ended up winning against 20 speed banelings off creep...2 marines left, about the best I could manage regularly. Maybe 5 marines against non speed. As numbers get higher I could barely break even. This is when I know the banelings are coming.
In game of course sometimes I fumble, maybe 5 marines to 4 banelings is the ratio if I'm caught off guard on creep, which after all isn't so bad since mules more than make up for the minerals and he still loses on gas.
its probably better to just have 2-3 tanks with u... even on a build with a really skewed mineral to gas mining rates like this one, u should have enough gas for some few tanks.
That's a really good split. Anything that's 1 for 1 is good because banelings cost more than marines. I'm usually happy if I can get two blings for every marine.
I don't find that I need to micro that hard against the banelings, especially conpared to marine raven builds. A healthy mix of marauders does wonders. You still need adeuate micro to run the marauders up front and run the marines away, splitting as much as you can, but you don't need to be foxer. It's also much easier off creep, of course. I don't usually have a lot of success using tanks with this kind of buid, but I think that's because I don't get up to enough of them. Once you have a critical mass they can really stop banelings with a couple volleys.
As long as you're responsible about constant pressure and denying expansions, mass baneling usually means less mutas. This means your turrets won't get brute forced down and you can make a lot of tanks too. Mass muta means you need more marines and turrets and your main probably isn't that safe but you should be guaranteed to win a straight up battle with just infantry.
Marauders -> Tanks is the anti-baneling support that you add to your army. You want to get less marauders and more tanks due to infestors if you want to persist with mass marine.
I saw this in a tournament on metalopolis recently and it was ridiculously strong. Glad there is a write up like this because I definitely want to try out. Thanks!
Edit: I think you're referring to the SCL finals, replays are on page 23.
I've been testing the build non-stop almost a month now. It seems rock stable to me. It literally feels like an entirely different TvZ to me, you still have to pressure, yes, but the timings and build orders are so whack compared to standard that its mind boggling at times.
On December 13 2010 10:56 btb103 wrote: I saw this in a tournament on metalopolis recently and it was ridiculously strong. Glad there is a write up like this because I definitely want to try out. Thanks!
Yup SCL finals Ngry vs Strifeco(or is it strifecro) either way yes very strong with a player with good mechanics ^^
On December 13 2010 10:59 Griffith` wrote: Edit: I think you're referring to the SCL finals, replays are on page 23.
I've been testing the build non-stop almost a month now. It seems rock stable to me. It literally feels like an entirely different TvZ to me, you still have to pressure, yes, but the timings and build orders are so whack compared to standard that its mind boggling at times.
Of course it's an entirely different TvZ. You are either forcing the Zerg to micro a lot more than they are comfortable with outside of ZvZ, or forcing them and yourself into a micro-heavy macro game.
It's also an entirely different 3v3 and 4v4 experience (3 Partners play defensive builds while I go for the 4 OC + a FE, I hit the 10 minute mark and go MM and take up the offensive that never ends while partners can macro and tech up. At about 20 Minutes, my 3 Partners all push out while I switch to mass expand and gas to high hell (And maybe ninja a gold expansion or 2). It's funny as hell when you close the game with mass Thors that are replaced faster than they are destroyed, even funnier when you are given command of a Mothership to constantly recall newly built thors.
Just tried this out vs a low diamond Zerg and it was pretty hilarious to see. I ended up straight trading bio armies with him for about 20 minutes before the strength of my economy just wore him down.
I don't think he had any idea where all my units were coming from because every time we'd trade he'd try to hit one of my expos only to find another bioball waiting there ready to go, and then he eventually gave a little 'wtf, nice' before gg'ing.
Feels crazy to be out-macroing a zerg. But fun. I like this build!
On December 13 2010 10:56 btb103 wrote: I saw this in a tournament on metalopolis recently and it was ridiculously strong. Glad there is a write up like this because I definitely want to try out. Thanks!
Yup SCL finals Ngry vs Strifeco(or is it strifecro) either way yes very strong with a player with good mechanics ^^
I play Zerg, and my friend used this build against me twice in a friendly custom league best of 3 match. It just wore me down and I finally didn't have the macro to keep up, as he used his periodic bioballs to snipe expos. Ugh.
So, assuming I'm really bad but am willing to learn, what can I do as Zerg to combat this? I did take one game with a 7 Roach Rush where I'm assuming he was also going with this build. Is that the answer? An early rush or baneling bust? Or just get better with sling/bling/muta? I did try to mix in infestors the second time, but the macro effort and constant pressure caused me to make quite a few mistakes, and eventually I just ran out of larva for sling/bling.
On December 15 2010 07:29 sfvenn wrote: I play Zerg, and my friend used this build against me twice in a friendly custom league best of 3 match. It just wore me down and I finally didn't have the macro to keep up, as he used his periodic bioballs to snipe expos. Ugh.
So, assuming I'm really bad but am willing to learn, what can I do as Zerg to combat this? I did take one game with a 7 Roach Rush where I'm assuming he was also going with this build. Is that the answer? An early rush or baneling bust? Or just get better with sling/bling/muta? I did try to mix in infestors the second time, but the macro effort and constant pressure caused me to make quite a few mistakes, and eventually I just ran out of larva for sling/bling.
Even at the professional level, Sling Bling eventually just got outmacroed or simply runs out of resources since expanding against constant 4OC Bioballs is so difficult.
7RR should work against low APM players, but apparently it's countered with a few bunkers at the nat or higher levels of APM, and does cause the player to use the one Rax they techlabed for stim/shields for marauder production rather than more marins.
Earlier in the discussion there was talk of the Eco Baneling Bust. I personally hypothesize that Overseers contaminating a CC that's upgrading to the OC can by you some precious time, while a flock of say 5 Overseers can create an opening to remacro.
There is a massive timing window between 7 and 9 minutes.
That's how you most easily beat this build and why ultimately i don't think it has a lot of longevity. If people are familiar with it - they should know about this fairly significant window and crush it.
the key problem is the expense/income - the point where the build is weakest is between this point as you're still in the red in terms of resources. its the core problem with the build.
EDIT: sorry, not trying to piss on the build or anything - my response was directed at the guy asking how to beat it three posts up. the answer is a strong push between 7 and 9 minutes.
On December 15 2010 08:05 30to1 wrote: the psystarcraft game is a pretty good example.
the key problem is the expense/income - the point where the build is weakest is between this point as you're still in the red in terms of resources. its the core problem with the build.
The Psy vs iEchoic game was a 1base-allin blind infestor rush, and it only worked because iechoic teched late to medivacs/tanks and put up zero bunkers. You don't seem to understand the extremeness and esotericness of Psy's build lol.
its actually just because it happened to be a random build that had a strong timing attack during the weakest point in your build.
Just look at your build and ask yourself why there is that window and why its weakest there. Its a fine build - but there is a really potent window there, and that timing is the easiest way to beat it.
On December 15 2010 08:05 30to1 wrote: the psystarcraft game is a pretty good example.
the key problem is the expense/income - the point where the build is weakest is between this point as you're still in the red in terms of resources. its the core problem with the build.
EDIT: sorry, not trying to piss on the build or anything - my response was directed at the guy asking how to beat it three posts up. the answer is a strong push between 7 and 9 minutes.
As far as I can tell that's the only build which has had success and one I haven't run into on the ladders. The problem is it only works if zerg knows terran is specifically going mass oc as opposed to a two rax marine/scv all in, which is what it appears like on the surface. I would say there's a window of vulnerability, but it tends to be made up by the defender's advantage.
I don't want to pee in Griffin's thread. But if you really look at the build and really think about - its pretty clear why the timing window is there - IMO - its more of a meta build - which is why it will win most when people are unfamiliar with it - but if it starts to become more prominent then people will become familiar with its weaknesses. Standard zerg TvZ does not generally include a timing push at 8 minutes - so it will work really well.
Anyway - its a great build and I wish you guys luck with it. But keep in mind that timing window is there
On December 15 2010 08:20 30to1 wrote: I don't want to pee in Griffin's thread. But if you really look at the build and really think about - its pretty clear why the timing window is there - IMO - its more of a meta build - which is why it will win most when people are unfamiliar with it - but if it starts to become more prominent then people will become familiar with its weaknesses. Standard zerg TvZ does not generally include a timing push at 8 minutes - so it will work really well.
Anyway - its a great build and I wish you guys luck with it. But keep in mind that timing window is there
What I'd prefer is if iEchoic and Psy did 30 games with both of those basic builds(with tweaks as necessary ofcourse) and see what the outcome is so we can see from a statistical point of view which it tends to favor(compared with their normal win ratios against each other as a null hypthesis).
I would honestly say that psy's build is close to a hard counter to griffins. The results of that test would not be remotely favorable. Thankfully you won't see that build used very often!
But it uses the hard unit counter for the marine heavy early force the build uses as well as hitting during that timing (which is why psy's game makes griffin's build look sort of laughable).
But the glaring hole is that timing (I'm really surprised that griffin didn't seem aware of it in earlier post). You can tweek this build so that it doesn't suffer from that timing weakness, but it won't really look anything like the original build when you're done with it.
For all this "timing window" talk, I don't think you quite understand how timings work.
Firstly, you can't get infestors out in the 7-9 timing window unless you do 1-base play. 2-base play delays this way too much. So saying "its pretty-close" is laughable because 2-base and 1-base zerg are NOTHING alike. This point is of huge importance because the Zerg's decision to do 1-base play comes BEFORE Terran's decision to 4OC.
Secondly, this build doesn't COMMIT to 4OC until the 27 supply mark (around 5-6 minutes).
A real "timing window" hole would be a decision a zerg makes AFTER the decision by the Terran to 4OC. 4OC is generally centered against 14/15-hatch play, which accounts for like 90% of high level TvZ.
On December 15 2010 08:38 30to1 wrote: I would honestly say that psy's build is close to a hard counter to griffins. The results of that test would not be remotely favorable. Thankfully you won't see that build used very often!
But it uses the hard unit counter for the marine heavy early force the build uses as well as hitting during that timing (which is why psy's game makes griffin's build look sort of laughable).
But the glaring hole is that timing (I'm really surprised that griffin didn't seem aware of it in earlier post). You can tweek this build so that it doesn't suffer from that timing weakness, but it won't really look anything like the original build when you're done with it.
There was a good bit of luck which PsY had, including sneaking the one group of infestors to the main. Its why you can't base an entire build or counter build on a single game because it could be a statistical outlier. Again, why I feel like a 30 game test would allow both to seek out a way to defeat the other, while sticking to the mass OC vs infestor rush. But as Griffith has mentioned in the past, most zerg quasi all in attacks within the timing window can be defended on one base with 4 oc. The way I approach it is if zerg is going fast hatch, go ahead and quickly grab your expo; if they go one base, stay within the one base with bunkers until all 4 oc and 3 extra rax are up before securing expo. If zerg manages to break the wall, go ahead and pull as many scvs as necessary as you should have your mules kicking in at that point and one base with 4 mules is more than competitive income wise against a 1 base zerg. The maps with potential vulnerabilities are maps with back door rocks since they can nullify the defender's advantage.
griffin, i'm not arguing that your build sucks because psy's happens to beat it. psy's build isn't good, it just...happens to beat yours. No big deal. You aren't going to see psy's build cuz ... its an awful build.
All I'm saying is that if someone is having trouble beating this - they'll get the best bang for the buck trying a timing push at 7-9 minutes - because thats the period when your build is at its absolute weakest...you know this, so why argue?
On December 15 2010 08:51 30to1 wrote: griffin, i'm not arguing that your build sucks because psy's happens to beat it. psy's build isn't good, it just...happens to beat yours. No big deal. You aren't going to see psy's build cuz ... its an awful build.
All I'm saying is that if someone is having trouble beating this - they'll get the best bang for the buck trying a timing push at 7-9 minutes - because thats the period when your build is at its absolute weakest...you know this, so why argue?
I think its your phrasing, "glaring hole" implies that anyone can defeat the build if they exploit that hole. But in my experience, and from Griffith's replays, its a vulnerability but not something which is a guaranteed win for zerg even if exploited.
You keep saying there's a "really potent window" (pg24), meaning there's a period of "strong" weakness during this window. We're trying to figure out what exactly that "strong weakness" is.
On December 15 2010 08:57 Griffith` wrote: You keep saying there's a "really potent window" (pg24), meaning there's a period of "strong" weakness during this window. We're trying to figure out what exactly that "strong weakness" is.
your build is an econ build. it relies on how income works to either live or die.
you're investing in CC's early so you can really gain a bit later - your build hits its stride around 10 or 11 minutes when all the income is streaming in. At around 9 minutes it's shakey but starting to stabilize as the income from your 4th oc is starting to put you in the black.
the big problem is that when you're building your 4th oc but that oc hasn't paid for itself yet. Your army will be considerably smaller than your opponents (because you have minerals tied up in ocs that havent finished paying for themselves yet).
Sorry if it sounds harsh or I used the wrong words - but I was pretty specific about the window (7-9 minutes), that period after the 4th OC has been fully committed to, but before it's fully repaid for itself.
Think about it as if it were not an OC, but instead a third expansion. If your opponent doesn't attack before the expo starts to pay for itself, then you're gonna be in great shape when the expo starts to kick in, but before that - there is a window of time when you're weakest. The 4OC build is not as extreme as taking a third expo in terms of vulnerability, but similar economics are at play.
The big advantage this build has - is a meta game advantage in that zergs really aren't used to attacking a terran player at 8 minutes (especially after 2 rax early aggro). This alone will win you a lot of games, but the weakness during that period (7-9 minutes) is the reason I don't think you're going to see this build at the pro level a month from now. Pro players don't tend to play as robotically as your average ladder player - and they often have a good gut understanding of how vulnerable stuff is. If a pro player sees this build a few times and it gives them trouble - you better believe they'll start responding with an attack during that window.
It's not an opinion - its just the economics of your economic build.
So, try to push at 7 to 9 minutes? Gah, not many of my builds have that much early/mid aggression. And yeah, the 7RR would be easily stopped if he threw up a bunker or put heftier buildings in his wall. To have enough units to do damage at 7-9 minutes seems leaning towards an all-in build to have enough impact and follow thru. I guess I can macro up if I do enough damage.
I've got to watch the replay to see how many units he has between 7 and 9 minutes, because I don't know how glaring that hole is, and with defenders' advantage of the wall, ranged units, and bunkers, it seems like it would be tough to break in.
What unit mix can Zerg come up with at that time frame to break through and do enough damage? Banelings followed by zerglings and more banelings? He's gotta have quite a few marines/marauders behind the wall. I saw Psy's vid, and my infestor micro is so horribad that I won't even attempt it.
I hope the Zerg masterminds can come up with an easier meta counter to this. Meantime, I'll just practice becoming better than my frenemy.
Anyway, nice strat OP. I'm having a tough time against it. =P
I abandoned this build because strong zerg (2400+) just go 2base infestors and banelings and decimate even endless bio. I am guessing that it might have a chance with pure marine/tank/medivac and decent marine splitting micro. (cut marauders because you need the gas to make both tanks and medivacs)
On December 15 2010 09:20 sfvenn wrote: So, try to push at 7 to 9 minutes? Gah, not many of my builds have that much early/mid aggression. And yeah, the 7RR would be easily stopped if he threw up a bunker or put heftier buildings in his wall. To have enough units to do damage at 7-9 minutes seems leaning towards an all-in build to have enough impact and follow thru. I guess I can macro up if I do enough damage.
I've got to watch the replay to see how many units he has between 7 and 9 minutes, because I don't know how glaring that hole is, and with defenders' advantage of the wall, ranged units, and bunkers, it seems like it would be tough to break in.
What unit mix can Zerg come up with at that time frame to break through and do enough damage? Banelings followed by zerglings and more banelings? He's gotta have quite a few marines/marauders behind the wall. I saw Psy's vid, and my infestor micro is so horribad that I won't even attempt it.
I hope the Zerg masterminds can come up with an easier meta counter to this. Meantime, I'll just practice becoming better than my frenemy.
Anyway, nice strat OP. I'm having a tough time against it. =P
I personally don't recommend a baneling bust as it requires you to lose most of your units to break down a solid wall, and they can pull off scvs to assist taking out the remaining zerglings, while keeping a strong econ with mules and make a ton of scvs to replace the workers. Likewise they can quickly restart the wall where it was broken down before you can keep up the attack. To the other end, I feel an econ baneling bust takes too long and loses the window of vulnerability, but I don't recall the timings for that offhand. I personally find rr the hardest to hold against.
On December 15 2010 09:28 statikg wrote: I abandoned this build because strong zerg (2400+) just go 2base infestors and banelings and decimate even endless bio. I am guessing that it might have a chance with pure marine/tank/medivac and decent marine splitting micro. (cut marauders because you need the gas to make both tanks and medivacs)
If you still have them, please post some replays, I'd be curious about seeing them.
On December 15 2010 09:20 sfvenn wrote: So, try to push at 7 to 9 minutes? Gah, not many of my builds have that much early/mid aggression. And yeah, the 7RR would be easily stopped if he threw up a bunker or put heftier buildings in his wall. To have enough units to do damage at 7-9 minutes seems leaning towards an all-in build to have enough impact and follow thru. I guess I can macro up if I do enough damage.
I've got to watch the replay to see how many units he has between 7 and 9 minutes, because I don't know how glaring that hole is, and with defenders' advantage of the wall, ranged units, and bunkers, it seems like it would be tough to break in.
What unit mix can Zerg come up with at that time frame to break through and do enough damage? Banelings followed by zerglings and more banelings? He's gotta have quite a few marines/marauders behind the wall. I saw Psy's vid, and my infestor micro is so horribad that I won't even attempt it.
I hope the Zerg masterminds can come up with an easier meta counter to this. Meantime, I'll just practice becoming better than my frenemy.
Anyway, nice strat OP. I'm having a tough time against it. =P
I personally don't recommend a baneling bust as it requires you to lose most of your units to break down a solid wall, and they can pull off scvs to assist taking out the remaining zerglings, while keeping a strong econ with mules and make a ton of scvs to replace the workers. Likewise they can quickly restart the wall where it was broken down before you can keep up the attack. To the other end, I feel an econ baneling bust takes too long and loses the window of vulnerability, but I don't recall the timings for that offhand. I personally find rr the hardest to hold against.
Thanks for the response. I suspected as much. AAAND... now my frenemy wants me to roach rush him so he can solidify that part of the weakness in the build, which is really just a standard build worry that is pretty easily overcome.
Infester baneling, eh? Well, I did tell myself I needed to practice my infestor micro more. I'll try it thanks! A replay would be nice to see, too.
Has anyone tried to swing this into mass 2 Base Thor Hellion with marines in bunkers to really quick 4 gas into some sort of massive push at about 15 minutes? I think that it would be a good intro to it since Thor/Hellion/marine is by no means ineffective especially when you get the insane amount of blue flame hellions running around everywhere. I remember doing 4 Fact way back after TLO did this in GSL1 and getting mineral locked due to Reactor Facts taking 400 min/min each and Thor Production sucking up 300 min/min each for a total of 1400 min/min. I think you could swing this into getting even more marine/hellion support for the Thors.
EDIT: With that much crap in front of your Thors, you should be pretty resistant to Neural Parasite due to the need to fungal everything first and the some portion of the 20-30 Hellions potentially taking out all the infestors.
On December 15 2010 09:28 statikg wrote: I abandoned this build because strong zerg (2400+) just go 2base infestors and banelings and decimate even endless bio. I am guessing that it might have a chance with pure marine/tank/medivac and decent marine splitting micro. (cut marauders because you need the gas to make both tanks and medivacs)
I've faced similar problems as well, one trick I have been doing is to split the marines at your nat as soon as possible (ie. long before the attack even comes) then pressing hold. I tend to disperse them completely so a baneling/infestor will catch 2 or 3 marines at the MOST.
You keep saying there's a "really potent window" (pg24), meaning there's a period of "strong" weakness during this window. We're trying to figure out what exactly that "strong weakness" is.
I've had to deal with this build on ladder a lot lately, and there definitely is a "weak" point before before terran gets 12+ rax or whatever. I generally have a kyrix style zvt so ling/bling really does put a damper on it when scouted early enough.
so yeah, griffith', your build is fine and dandy, its not like zerg can easily stop it at the "weak" timing either, but you need to understand that, and not be so defensive about your build because it makes you sound real ignorant!
edit: Sorry about sounding like a jerk, I have simply read only a few of your posts on the subject, so if I misjudged I'm terribly sorry! You can reply to me in a mean way if that makes you feel better
So i have been using this on ladder. Its definitely working for me, even in the lower leagues cause its just not heavy on the micro. What i was finding was that it was super weak against baneling bust. I have modified it, 3 racks at the ramp then CC at 22 and CC at 26 while pumping rines. Early pressure is still great but, seriously, i was just getting busted ALL the time and this has so far stopped it.
I was talking about this build at least two weeks ago and no one really said anything. Since then I have discovered that a two base mass baneling 6-7 min timing attack or a mass expand into ling/bane/infestor completely shuts this build down. Fear not my fellow zergs....its not that bad.
On December 15 2010 11:39 QuesterX wrote: So i have been using this on ladder. Its definitely working for me, even in the lower leagues cause its just not heavy on the micro. What i was finding was that it was super weak against baneling bust. I have modified it, 3 racks at the ramp then CC at 22 and CC at 26 while pumping rines. Early pressure is still great but, seriously, i was just getting busted ALL the time and this has so far stopped it.
yeah i'm guessing those busts tended to happen somewhere between 7 and 9 minutes most of the time - or at least most of the time when you ended up losing.
I don't think its so much the banelings itself - its that there was some strong push using a bunch of units that zerg could easily put together at around that time. Infestor will do it, baneling. It helps if the units are really good at killing marines, but honestly I think that a solid roach/hydra push could probably be strong also (not sure on the timings there though).
The point isn't so much the units, as the timing.
Griffin, considering you've been using this build for almost a month now - were you really not aware that this build had that weakness?
Trump did something like this in a GosuGamers livestream like...2-3 months back. Personally I feel quite comfortable going into endgame vs. zerg, but that's just me lol.
I've never had nearly as much problem with baneling busts as others, at least not at the 2k-3k level. I can defend against them without too much difficulty.
"were you really not aware that this build had that weakness?" <-- wtf are you talking about?
No offense but you're a platinum level protoss player, as you said yourself. I don't know why you're going off about its "weaknesses" of a TvZ build when I've spent at least a month defending against 2k+ zerg players regarding specific said weaknesses of eco-bling/sling/infestor.
I mentioned in OP that I'm MORE than happy to play against zergs who wanna try eco baneling/sling.
Even though ive never really done this buil exactly, i have done a type of build where for every 2 expansions I build one extra OC.
I think it negates some of the vulnerability since marauders are quite powerfull for both offense and defense, and if your doing a 3 rax type of build I think it just adds alittle later-game security since you can have alot of mules.
I think in most games i actualy get an extra OC, just because the mules are so powerfull, and even that extra oc can really make a big impact.
however, depending on when i build the OC and depending on how well i scouted, ive been killed numerous times due to roach busts, banelings, or aggressive 4gates
On December 15 2010 12:05 30to1 wrote: you're right griffin, sorry - your build is perfect. there is really no weakness.
it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try....
OK you're just pulling shit out of your ass and using strawman arguments. "Pros are all wrong?" Since when did pros even become part of this argument? You're putting words into my mouth. How can pros be "wrong" when the majority of them haven't even commented on it or tried it out? The ones who have, eg. vVvNGry have had amazing successes with it. How come you completely discredit that?
Seriously man I think you're feeling way overprotective of your "OC Farming" idea. You're just borderline trolling at this point.
I'm not using strawman arguments. I'm telling you the weaknesses of your build using very specific terms and timings.
Just wait a month and check out where the build is - if its being used all over the place then great, i'm wrong. If it's not, then maybe you should look at it and ask yourself why.
Perhaps its because there is a timing window between 7 and 9 minutes where its very vulnerable and players once familiar with it - can use that window for a "build order win".
Maybe in the future someone will have some success with a 3OC variation or something else, perhaps, but thats because they'll have figured out some way to plug that gap.
Sorry you seem to be taking this so personally, I'm just sharing my thoughts on your build.
On December 15 2010 12:05 30to1 wrote: you're right griffin, sorry - your build is perfect. there is really no weakness.
it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try....
U can say that with any build.
EVERY BUILD has a weakness, its what the player does to minimize the weakness that makes it good. This is also the reason WHY some builds fail for certain players and work for others. "Does the build fit your playstyle" is what I tell people when they ask me, "Will this build roflstomp and rape everyone?"
Yes this build has a GLARING weakness at the 7-9 minute mark, the way to account and minimize this weakness is with efficient scouting and knowledge of what the zerg player is planning to do.
As many of u have mentioned, a kyrix style build could(will) probably decimate this. From my practices with this build, it is obviously the counter to the build, but that doesn't mean the build is bad. Again I go back to the part of "efficient scouting" a good player will see the attack coming and prepare accordingly(in this scenario, I would cut the 4th OC and throw up extra bunkers, grab the 4th OC later).
You use either esoteric examples of 1base infestor play, or just echo another person's "2 base bling / sling kyrix eco-bust". Both of which are fairly weak methods of beating 4OC. I've defended at least over 50-60 eco baneling busts in the past few weeks. Like NGry said, scouting will let your prepare, this is NOT a blind build. 2-3 Bunkers will hold off 90% - 95% of all baneling busts. The scouting time window for zerg is quite tight as well.
Yes, on some maps like close position metalopolis, lost temple, or even steppes of war, 4OC would be weak because of the rush distance making bling/sling a bit more dangerous.
I'm not taking this personally. Its actually quite helpful as it brings it a lot more insights from other players.
On December 15 2010 12:05 30to1 wrote: you're right griffin, sorry - your build is perfect. there is really no weakness.
it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try....
U can say that with any build.
EVERY BUILD has a weakness, its what the player does to minimize the weakness that makes it good. This is also the reason WHY some builds fail for certain players and work for others. "Does the build fit your playstyle" is what I tell people when they ask me, "Will this build roflstomp and rape everyone?"
Yes this build has a GLARING weakness at the 7-9 minute mark, the way to account and minimize this weakness is with efficient scouting and knowledge of what the zerg player is planning to do.
As many of u have mentioned, a kyrix style build could(will) probably decimate this. From my practices with this build, it is obviously the counter to the build, but that doesn't mean the build is bad. Again I go back to the part of "efficient scouting" a good player will see the attack coming and prepare accordingly(in this scenario, I would cut the 4th OC and throw up extra bunkers, grab the 4th OC later).
To be fair, this is my point.
To follow the thread here - someone posted a question "i'm having trouble beating this build" - I posted a response, "there is a timing hole between 7-9 minutes you can abuse", griffin responded by saying, "no there isn't"...etc.
I'm not saying this build is awful, I'm pretty fond of the idea of building more than 1 OC really. I'm just saying that I don't think this build -as written- has legs in the long run because of the 7-9 minute weakness.
I also think that weakness is the primary reason that so many people stopped using it - or multi OC variations which I think is a shame.
The "one extra OC for every 2 base" rule of thumb is really much better long run. It's a little bit more mature of a use.
Hey im a zerg player and i've had some problems running into this build and some slight variations at the gold/plat level, and Ive been working on optimizing a timing push off a FE build.
I dont have any replays and I havent done any testing yet, but just off the people who use this builds experience, do you think that a push of 12 +1/+1 banelings and 24 +1/+1 speedlings at around 7:30 - 7:45 would be sufficient to take it down, even if its scouted?
After consulting with vVvNGry and Ryze extensively and the numerous TL posters mentioned above, we've worked out some of the conditions for the 4th Orbital Command.
Namely, Terran should to scan the zerg base at 5:55 right before laying down the 4th OC and check the following things:
1. Is it a close-rush distance map? (Steppes of War, close distance metalopolis, close distance lost temple) 2. Is the drone count low? 3. Is there no lair lech? 4. Is there at least double gas?
If the answer is a yes to all of the above, then build up two bunkers and throw up two raxes ASAP at your natural.
I think the main problem we've had with differing results for eco baneling busts is the rush distance. I've typically tested on Xel'naga caverns (wide open nat, but fairly far rush distances) against eco-baneling bust.
Edit: We're doing some more tests in regards to walling off the ramp with OCs (no raxes)
Great. I'm glad something constructive has come out of this.
Just tone down the ad hominem shit. Obviously, I raised a pretty valid point about the timing window where this build is weakest. Use that feedback productively instead of just questioning my credentials.
Anyway, good luck with the build. In all sincerity I hope I'm wrong and the idea rocks the next GSL.
On December 15 2010 12:06 Dethant wrote: Even though ive never really done this buil exactly, i have done a type of build where for every 2 expansions I build one extra OC.
I think it negates some of the vulnerability since marauders are quite powerfull for both offense and defense, and if your doing a 3 rax type of build I think it just adds alittle later-game security since you can have alot of mules.
I think in most games i actualy get an extra OC, just because the mules are so powerfull, and even that extra oc can really make a big impact.
however, depending on when i build the OC and depending on how well i scouted, ive been killed numerous times due to roach busts, banelings, or aggressive 4gates
i dont think ive ever done this agaisnt T though
My recommendation against T is to get fast tanks, and a bunker for your marines, then go for the OCs(pulling scvs off gas till you only support one tank at a time), you should have a strong enough advantage to defend the inevitable push. But once you throw down your OCs I would recommend getting a turret or two at each base against banshee since that seems like the next logical step that most terran opponents take(that or a drop, which you can defend by repositioning a tank or two). Suprisingly, a MM focused army with fast replenishment can do extremely well vs a tank centric army if you have stim and cc.
On December 15 2010 13:39 Dethant wrote: Yeah, tanks are essential in TvT, although they are quite gas heavy :/
haha and yeah, if you have good micro and good positioning mauraders can wreck tanks.
usualy for me though TvT ends up in a mass tank/viking race of epic 45 minut game proportions, lol.
Well the interesting thing is having mass marine is viable because of the tank nerf vs light. Tanks needing two hits to take out marines mean you can rush in with a mm army and have them survive while sniping the tanks while your own tanks can take out their remaining army while being constantly reinforced. Without the mineral income advantage, you need to be very efficient, leading to the viking/tank combo, but now, you can indeed push tank positions with your mm ball with tanks to clean up. At that point you should be able to outproduce them not allowing them to get a critical number of tanks.
I'm going to restructure the OP in the next few days so it becomes similar to the Liquipedia page on 1rax FE from BW. The mid-game feels quite similar. There are several timing windows I'm trying to work out, namely:
On December 15 2010 15:50 johanngrunt wrote: The real strength of this strategy is in team games =)
In 2v2s, it's actually a bit harder to pull off than in 1v1 since both teams could end up hitting you or your partner during the 7-9 minute window, and Ling Bling can be particularly disastrous for you since unlike a 1v1, they can continue the push right after you trade your marines for the zerg's blings through the partner's forces.
Now if you can get away with murder with 3v3 and 4v4 builds, this could be called genocide. It's traditionally very difficult to get a 3rd expansion in these larger matches without cutting into a partner's natural since it only takes one opponent to randomly scout your attempt at an expansion to have it focused down by 2 player's worth of army count. This build can achieve 3 Bases worth of mineral income from only 2 bases and expands with fair ease with the extra OCs, and you can easily boost your gas income by sending out extra SCVs to build refineries at several points and lifting your OC's to the refineries after they are finished building with very put at risk. Your marines safeguard against a lot of the more gimmicky plays that players try in 3v3 and 4v4. And if you are started in one of the more secure locations on a map, you can even cut the 2nd Rax and the first 5 marines in favor of faster CCs if you're partners are particularly talented at the early defense.
On December 15 2010 15:50 johanngrunt wrote: The real strength of this strategy is in team games =)
In 2v2s, it's actually a bit harder to pull off than in 1v1 since both teams could end up hitting you or your partner during the 7-9 minute window, and Ling Bling can be particularly disastrous for you since unlike a 1v1, they can continue the push right after you trade your marines for the zerg's blings through the partner's forces.
Now if you can get away with murder with 3v3 and 4v4 builds, this could be called genocide. It's traditionally very difficult to get a 3rd expansion in these larger matches without cutting into a partner's natural since it only takes one opponent to randomly scout your attempt at an expansion to have it focused down by 2 player's worth of army count. This build can achieve 3 Bases worth of mineral income from only 2 bases and expands with fair ease with the extra OCs, and you can easily boost your gas income by sending out extra SCVs to build refineries at several points and lifting your OC's to the refineries after they are finished building with very put at risk. Your marines safeguard against a lot of the more gimmicky plays that players try in 3v3 and 4v4. And if you are started in one of the more secure locations on a map, you can even cut the 2nd Rax and the first 5 marines in favor of faster CCs if you're partners are particularly talented at the early defense.
The only risk is if the opponents rush you during that window, you won't be able to hold off three armies at once. You'll need to coordinate with the other two people to have a unified defense.
On December 16 2010 10:06 ZerG~LegenD wrote: I'd love to try my wits against this. Are there any 2.5k+ Terrans on the European server who knows how to play this?
On December 15 2010 15:50 johanngrunt wrote: The real strength of this strategy is in team games =)
In 2v2s, it's actually a bit harder to pull off than in 1v1 since both teams could end up hitting you or your partner during the 7-9 minute window, and Ling Bling can be particularly disastrous for you since unlike a 1v1, they can continue the push right after you trade your marines for the zerg's blings through the partner's forces.
Now if you can get away with murder with 3v3 and 4v4 builds, this could be called genocide. It's traditionally very difficult to get a 3rd expansion in these larger matches without cutting into a partner's natural since it only takes one opponent to randomly scout your attempt at an expansion to have it focused down by 2 player's worth of army count. This build can achieve 3 Bases worth of mineral income from only 2 bases and expands with fair ease with the extra OCs, and you can easily boost your gas income by sending out extra SCVs to build refineries at several points and lifting your OC's to the refineries after they are finished building with very put at risk. Your marines safeguard against a lot of the more gimmicky plays that players try in 3v3 and 4v4. And if you are started in one of the more secure locations on a map, you can even cut the 2nd Rax and the first 5 marines in favor of faster CCs if you're partners are particularly talented at the early defense.
The only risk is if the opponents rush you during that window, you won't be able to hold off three armies at once. You'll need to coordinate with the other two people to have a unified defense.
It's why I said "If you started in one of the more secure locations on a map". Some maps are more conducive towards trying out this build, while other 3v3/4v4 maps I wouldn't even try it since on some maps, distance between allied bases diminishes the team aspect of the defenders advantage too greatly to survive a push without using units for some sort of delaying action.
Really impressed with your dedication to this thread/build most people make these kinds of threads and they simply disappear after a couple days. Im pretty new having just switched to terran and im trying to learn this build, im not good at it yet but its showing promise compared to what i was trying before. Anymore info on an SK-terran transition would be great also!
Had a random run-in with the build when my friend asked me to play his friend. He was only 2.4k but put up a better fight than most 3k+ Terrans I've played. I'm still a ticking timebomb though =)
Also, I don't think it's wise to play to extremely bio heavy unless you have amazing control. You say so in the OP and yet the bio build is the one I've seen in every replay I've watched with this opening.
I agree - there needs to be a plan for a transition to T2 or T2.5, pure MMM greatly loses its effectiveness if the game isn't over by 15 minutes. Zerg super late game is still an unstoppable time bomb without heavy pressure throughout mid game.
The bio one is the most frequent one seen because a lot of games end before tech can kick in. By no means is 4OC a "timing push", its more of an opening similar to 4OC that leads to numerous timings but with much greater ferocity due to the economic advantage.
On December 15 2010 12:05 30to1 wrote: you're right griffin, sorry - your build is perfect. there is really no weakness.
it will never be seen in high level play. but thats just because the pros are all wrong and nobody gave your super amazing mega build a try....
OK you're just pulling shit out of your ass and using strawman arguments. "Pros are all wrong?" Since when did pros even become part of this argument? You're putting words into my mouth. How can pros be "wrong" when the majority of them haven't even commented on it or tried it out? The ones who have, eg. vVvNGry have had amazing successes with it. How come you completely discredit that?
Seriously man I think you're feeling way overprotective of your "OC Farming" idea. You're just borderline trolling at this point.
They actually talked about the build on Sup Doodz and gretorp broke the build down to why it's a bad build
On December 17 2010 20:16 ZerG~LegenD wrote: Had a random run-in with the build when my friend asked me to play his friend. He was only 2.4k but put up a better fight than most 3k+ Terrans I've played. I'm still a ticking timebomb though =)
Also, I don't think it's wise to play to extremely bio heavy unless you have amazing control. You say so in the OP and yet the bio build is the one I've seen in every replay I've watched with this opening.
It depends on what they're going for. If they're only using zergling/baneling, then I would recommend just keep throwing units at them until you can take out one of their bases. The reason why this works so well is zerglings are larvae intensive per resource compared to other units, such as roach or hydra. One larvae for a roach vs one larvae for 2 zerglings is a sizable difference in resources if they aren't able to keep up in production facilities and creating an extra hatchery takes a good amount of time. Although I do this with a transition into 6 OCs, so it may not work with a purely 4OC build.
But yes hopefully you do have atleast a factory, and armory for 2/2 upgrades, and potentially a starport coming.
Yeah, Ling/Bling out of 2 Bases/3 Hatch gets outmacroed by MM Spam out of 7+ Raxes out of 2 Bases/4OC when the Marines have some decent micro behind them. In the replays the Zerg player does well keeping the bioballs out, but is never able to establish map control. The solid wall the Zerg players eventually run into is that they have to expand. Because Map Control is at this point essentially split between the Terran and the Zerg Player, the Terran has an easy time sniping the expansion while the Terran is easily able to salvage an expansion under attack by lifting off the OC they sent and queuing up SCVs to replace those that were lost in the attack. The Zerg has to sacrifice larva that can be spent on units to try to keep their own economy up to snuff. this results in a shift of map control in the Terran's favor at which point you watch the momentum quickly snowball into a very solid push into the natural.
Also note that both of Zerg's T1.5 gas units are countered pretty hard by Terran's T1.5 unit of choice to accompany marines.
Someone tried to do this to me once, i sent some lings in after i held off the 2rax to see 4OCs being made, so I just rallied zerglings and banelings in and tried to kill him before he could get an advantage
On December 18 2010 03:39 cactuschewer wrote: Someone tried to do this to me once, i sent some lings in after i held off the 2rax to see 4OCs being made, so I just rallied zerglings and banelings in and tried to kill him before he could get an advantage
On December 18 2010 03:37 Conrose wrote: Yeah, Ling/Bling out of 2 Bases/3 Hatch gets outmacroed by MM Spam out of 7+ Raxes out of 2 Bases/4OC when the Marines have some decent micro behind them. In the replays the Zerg player does well keeping the bioballs out, but is never able to establish map control. The solid wall the Zerg players eventually run into is that they have to expand. Because Map Control is at this point essentially split between the Terran and the Zerg Player, the Terran has an easy time sniping the expansion while the Terran is easily able to salvage an expansion under attack by lifting off the OC they sent and queuing up SCVs to replace those that were lost in the attack. The Zerg has to sacrifice larva that can be spent on units to try to keep their own economy up to snuff. this results in a shift of map control in the Terran's favor at which point you watch the momentum quickly snowball into a very solid push into the natural.
Also note that both of Zerg's T1.5 gas units are countered pretty hard by Terran's T1.5 unit of choice to accompany marines.
Very good points, which forces them to commit to what they usually assume is a stronger combination of zergling/baneling, but never leaves them with enough units to counter attack. And then like you mentioned, forces them to not expand their economy or tech. Without the ability to get to broodlords/ultras, they end up painting themselves into a corner.
On December 18 2010 03:37 Conrose wrote: Yeah, Ling/Bling out of 2 Bases/3 Hatch gets outmacroed by MM Spam out of 7+ Raxes out of 2 Bases/4OC when the Marines have some decent micro behind them. In the replays the Zerg player does well keeping the bioballs out, but is never able to establish map control. The solid wall the Zerg players eventually run into is that they have to expand. Because Map Control is at this point essentially split between the Terran and the Zerg Player, the Terran has an easy time sniping the expansion while the Terran is easily able to salvage an expansion under attack by lifting off the OC they sent and queuing up SCVs to replace those that were lost in the attack. The Zerg has to sacrifice larva that can be spent on units to try to keep their own economy up to snuff. this results in a shift of map control in the Terran's favor at which point you watch the momentum quickly snowball into a very solid push into the natural.
Also note that both of Zerg's T1.5 gas units are countered pretty hard by Terran's T1.5 unit of choice to accompany marines.
Very good points, which forces them to commit to what they usually assume is a stronger combination of zergling/baneling, but never leaves them with enough units to counter attack. And then like you mentioned, forces them to not expand their economy or tech. Without the ability to get to broodlords/ultras, they end up painting themselves into a corner.
I prefer the expression of "Spending themselves into a gutter."
But yeah, I've found that once the Terran expands to 8 Refineries, they can fast track any tech they want and even pump endless Thors out of 3 Factories which is a favorite transition of mine in 2v2s and 3v3s.
On December 18 2010 03:39 cactuschewer wrote: Someone tried to do this to me once, i sent some lings in after i held off the 2rax to see 4OCs being made, so I just rallied zerglings and banelings in and tried to kill him before he could get an advantage
Did he have any kind of wall-in? If it was two rax on top of ramp, it should be easy enough to make a bunker or depot to seal it, and if it was a depot/rax at bottom of ramp, then he could reinforce it with the second rax and an OC at the top of ramp in case of a baneling bust.
I'm glad I actually looked into this thread. Now I know that what I thought was a joke build that I completely destroyed was actually something someone came up with on TL.net.
3v3 Maps and positions where this is a great build are as follows
Middle Positions on Arakan Citadel.
Middle Positions on Dig Site is a bit risky, but the rewards may be worth the risk if you can build your first OC from the safety of an allied base and take an island expansion early.
The Biolab, any position. Easy to wall off very early to defend yourself from cheese and any attempt to 3v1 one of you partners will usually result in the early pressure suffering from being surrounded from both sides of the choke. You'll want to get out a couple dozen marines before trying to expand.
Ulaan Deeps if you spawn in one of the two bases that share an entrance. The far spawn is simply too risky to rely much on your partners to aid in defense.
I've come to the conclusion that it is nearly always more preferable to just take your third by just building planetary fortress. 550 minerals is literally 15 seconds of mining time - it makes absolutely no sense to use an OC as the time its spent floating would equal a mule.
Planetary fortress are so fucking awesome for turtling to 5 bases that I bet Flash would be abusing the hell out of it in every single macro game straight up if he came to SC2.
On December 19 2010 13:02 Griffith` wrote: I've come to the conclusion that it is nearly always more preferable to just take your third by just building planetary fortress. 550 minerals is literally 15 seconds of mining time - it makes absolutely no sense to use an OC as the time its spent floating would equal a mule.
Planetary fortress are so fucking awesome for turtling to 5 bases that I bet Flash would be abusing the hell out of it in every single macro game straight up if he came to SC2.
Well, it certainly would secure a high risk expansion pretty well with your marines pushing all the time when you set up a network of turrets around it.
This is an incredibly frustrating build to play against if it goes unscouted; terran can turtle and then suddenly produce from 12 rax off 2 base. It's retarded and as risky as any other cheese, but I honestly think this will cause Blizzard to put mules on some sort of cooldown.
On December 19 2010 15:53 tsuxiit wrote: This is an incredibly frustrating build to play against if it goes unscouted; terran can turtle and then suddenly produce from 12 rax off 2 base. It's retarded and as risky as any other cheese, but I honestly think this will cause Blizzard to put mules on some sort of cooldown.
Its not retarded but while it is risky this is still a valid strategy i would employ in a Bo3 or Bo5. Mules getting a nerf is unlikely as its the main macro mechanic that would allow terrans to compete in the late game. I actually think terran late game suffers from making your 3-4 base Planetary Fortresses which while giving us an extra base thats secured denies us a mule we would need to compete with protoss and zerg.
Sure alot of players have just been using it as a chance to 12rax allin without using scvs but good players will try to add tanks or mediavcs to their unit composition and try to secure a 3rd.
If zergs want to stop this they will have to learn to scout better. Yes i know marines can prevent a slow overlord from scouting but im pretty sure you can sneak a changeling into the base while an overseer checks the another part of the terrans base.
Learn to adapt butt hurt zergs and learn to play. Patches wont save you they will only change the way we pwn you.
On December 19 2010 18:51 heyyouyesyou wrote: If zergs want to stop this they will have to learn to scout better. Yes i know marines can prevent a slow overlord from scouting but im pretty sure you can sneak a changeling into the base while an overseer checks the another part of the terrans base.
This tactic indeed works up to high bronce league, thanks for the advise.
I actually faced this for the first time at a tournament this past weekend. I never even heard of this build. I lost the first time he did this build and felt so stupid because I felt so smart picking off scvs. But.. that does nothing since Mules will just laugh at that. I just did a huge baneling bust in the 3rd game and won easily because of that.
On December 21 2010 17:36 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I actually faced this for the first time at a tournament this past weekend. I never even heard of this build. I lost the first time he did this build and felt so stupid because I felt so smart picking off scvs. But.. that does nothing since Mules will just laugh at that. I just did a huge baneling bust in the 3rd game and won easily because of that.
On December 21 2010 17:36 cHaNg-sTa wrote: I actually faced this for the first time at a tournament this past weekend. I never even heard of this build. I lost the first time he did this build and felt so stupid because I felt so smart picking off scvs. But.. that does nothing since Mules will just laugh at that. I just did a huge baneling bust in the 3rd game and won easily because of that.
MULE #1: Ew... I just landed in something.
MULE #2: Used to be 12 SCVs and a few banelings.
MULE #3: Hehe, I saw it going down as I was landing. Blood and acid everywhere.
MULE #2: Where's #4 anyways?
MULE #1: I think the commander is cleaning up tumors right now.
first of all, ty Griffeth for a really cool build. It have won me many games vs zerg so far, and I just love the feeling of throwing wave after wave of bio after the zerg.
Lately, however, I have ran into some problems against really good zergs. First they get fast ling speed so my 2 rax pressure in the beginning do almost no dmg, other then forcing them to make a bunch of lings. After that they just denies my expo with a big group of lings that is wayy to many for my 2-rax marine group to handle. I simply cant get my bunkers up at my expo! should i just make a bunker at my natural right as I move out with my first 3-4 marine push?
this is about 2400+ diamond, and even though I make some mistakes my opponent do aswell (he was slightly favored though).
could u pls point out what i did so terrible wrong, because I honestly think I got my ass whippet! He had alot of drones so it wasn't allin from his site. He teched to muta and even got banelings, while producing enough slings to keep me from getting my natural :S
aack - I don't have access to SC during the break (QQ). I will see if Bixs or another high level terran can provide exact feedback.
Your first 5 marines should arrive at zerg's expo way before speedling upgrade is finished. There's no point to keep on sending marines to their death once you see speedling up - rather just keep them at your nat/main to help you secure your expo.
As for securing your natural, it is critical that you simcity properly. IE. if they are camping lings at your nat, begin by building a bunker directly below your ramp. (Lings can't attack the bunker without being hit by the marines above). then proceed to add/or lift-move two more raxes next the bunker to begin your wall-off. Proper sim-city techniques take countless tries to master, and is an integral part of this build. Simcity is much harder on certain maps than others (xelnaga and metalopolis being two 'hard' maps for proper simcity, but it is completely doable).
EDIT: if you are going to get baneling busted, COMPLETELY spread your marines like a minefield WAY before hand. By Completely I mean spread out into single units. Doing so will actually make banelings not even remotely cost-effective against marines. Obviously such a spread is impossible if you are going on the offensive, but it is completely doable when you are on the defensive. A spread out 50 marine army is just retarded and nearly impossible bust.
On December 21 2010 21:02 Sifu wrote: first of all, ty Griffeth for a really cool build. It have won me many games vs zerg so far, and I just love the feeling of throwing wave after wave of bio after the zerg.
Lately, however, I have ran into some problems against really good zergs. First they get fast ling speed so my 2 rax pressure in the beginning almost do no dmg, other then forcing them to make a bunch of lings. After that they just denies my expo with a big group of lings that is wayy to many for my 2-rax marine group to handle. I simply cant get my bunkers up at my expo! should i just make a bunker at my natural right as I move out with my first 3-4 marine push?
this is about 2400+ diamond, and even though I make some mistakes my opponent do aswell (he was slightly favored though).
could u pls point out what i did so terrible wrong, because I honestly think I got my ass whippet! He had alot of drones so it wasn't allin from his site. He teched to muta and even got banelings, while producing enough slings to keep me from getting my natural :S
ty in advance Sifu
Still at work, but as someone who tries to exclusively use this build against all matchups, and with Griffith unavailable, I'll check it out tonight.Griffith's advice is pretty solid though. If by chance you're not used to marine stutter step for the two rax pressure, I recommend downloading QXC's practice map for that, which can be found in these forum, as it helps maximize the damage you can do in the beginning.
Edit: Ok just watched it. The primary issue you have is the order in which you're spending your money. You spend money on I believe 4 bunkers and an engineering bay before you start spending on any more barracks. After you start building your final cc, focus all your excess minerals(not being used on scvs or marines) on improving your production capacity. You could've easily had 3 extra barracks by the time the opponent started putting pressure on, especially if you were able to salvage that first bunker lost. That's the big picture thing I think you could improve. The small stuff include messing up with the initial marine production for the pressure. I personally make my depot by my gas, then build the two rax near the ramp. It gets me a few extra minerals for a bit of a faster rax production. Then you spent alot of time moving them around before starting marine production, giving the opponent time to set up his defense. Don't worry if you screw up and don't have an ultra tight seal at first, you can change it around later. Time is of the essence when you're trying to kill his natural. On this map(delta quadrant) I personally don't recommend expanding to the exposed natural. After you send out your first 5 marines, you send any newly produced marines to take out the rocks. It may take a while, but you don't need to spend more minerals on bunkers protecting the exposed natural, letting you set up your extra barracks. And even if you can't expand initially, such as on a map like metalopolis with an open natural, you can still one base harder than a normal terran since mules don't care about saturation. Play it safe in that situation and get your production facilities up first before taking the natural where you don't have the high ground advantage.
I had a terran use this against me as protoss last weekend at a LAN tourney, and I was taken by surprise at how much bio he was throwing at me. It just didn't feel like a normal terran push with the amount of bio reinforcements that were coming in afterwards.
I did, however, find that the easiest way to go about beating this strat as zerg is a strait up baneling bust. At first, the zerg lost to it on Lost Temple, with a baneling bust that broke in perfect, and 7-8 zerglings ran in and got free reign over some scvs. I was watching his monitor and his reaction to seeing 4 orbital commands waiting for him was "wtf?!". The scv's were replenished within a few seconds. The next map terran tried it on, shakuras, he saw the exact same opening, and went for a massive baneling bust. Terran had the same response to it with a heavy wall off, but was greeted by twice the amount of banelings and lots of lings.
EDIT: ha changsta was actually the zerg that beat it, guess he already posted here about it
On December 22 2010 15:45 Gooey wrote: I had a terran use this against me as protoss last weekend at a LAN tourney, and I was taken by surprise at how much bio he was throwing at me. It just didn't feel like a normal terran push with the amount of bio reinforcements that were coming in afterwards.
I did, however, find that the easiest way to go about beating this strat as zerg is a strait up baneling bust. At first, the zerg lost to it on Lost Temple, with a baneling bust that broke in perfect, and 7-8 zerglings ran in and got free reign over some scvs. I was watching his monitor and his reaction to seeing 4 orbital commands waiting for him was "wtf?!". The scv's were replenished within a few seconds. The next map terran tried it on, shakuras, he saw the exact same opening, and went for a massive baneling bust. Terran had the same response to it with a heavy wall off, but was greeted by twice the amount of banelings and lots of lings.
EDIT: ha changsta was actually the zerg that beat it, guess he already posted here about it
lol yea. Though the game on LT, he did a normal MM build and just moved out with too many small forces that got surrounded by just speedlings that I later transition into mutas. The game on Jungle Basin was the game that surprised me with the 4OC. I made a huge mistake of after busting down the wall, redroning thinking that I had a lead after killing a majority of his army and a good portion of his SCV's. I should have kept on reinforcing with zerglings/banelings instead. This build is even more greedy than any other FE build, you just have to do a huge baneling bust to counter it. Granted, it's very difficult to scout, but there were a few noticeable patterns between the Jungle Basin game and the Shakuras plateau game. Seeing the constant small waves of marines and heavy emphasis on marines early in the game with no rax add ons just made me believe that he was doing 4OC again and just said "fuck it" and decided to baneling bust.
On December 22 2010 15:45 Gooey wrote: I had a terran use this against me as protoss last weekend at a LAN tourney, and I was taken by surprise at how much bio he was throwing at me. It just didn't feel like a normal terran push with the amount of bio reinforcements that were coming in afterwards.
I did, however, find that the easiest way to go about beating this strat as zerg is a strait up baneling bust. At first, the zerg lost to it on Lost Temple, with a baneling bust that broke in perfect, and 7-8 zerglings ran in and got free reign over some scvs. I was watching his monitor and his reaction to seeing 4 orbital commands waiting for him was "wtf?!". The scv's were replenished within a few seconds. The next map terran tried it on, shakuras, he saw the exact same opening, and went for a massive baneling bust. Terran had the same response to it with a heavy wall off, but was greeted by twice the amount of banelings and lots of lings.
EDIT: ha changsta was actually the zerg that beat it, guess he already posted here about it
lol yea. Though the game on LT, he did a normal MM build and just moved out with too many small forces that got surrounded by just speedlings that I later transition into mutas. The game on Jungle Basin was the game that surprised me with the 4OC. I made a huge mistake of after busting down the wall, redroning thinking that I had a lead after killing a majority of his army and a good portion of his SCV's. I should have kept on reinforcing with zerglings/banelings instead. This build is even more greedy than any other FE build, you just have to do a huge baneling bust to counter it. Granted, it's very difficult to scout, but there were a few noticeable patterns between the Jungle Basin game and the Shakuras plateau game. Seeing the constant small waves of marines and heavy emphasis on marines early in the game with no rax add ons just made me believe that he was doing 4OC again and just said "fuck it" and decided to baneling bust.
Can you post a picture of what your face looked like when you saw the 4 OCs?
Anyways, something I want to try out for 3v3s and 4v4s is a 4OC into Mass Gas Expand using PFs and Turrets where the emphasis on the 3rd and 4th expansions is to saturate the gas, and maybe using them as my MULE dump to conserve minerals at my main and natural in the event my forward expansions do end up falling to allow for a transition into Mass T3 Units for myself or send them to an ally who is already well on their way to T3 Tech.
And I will be able to test on 3v3 until next Monday and see how it goes.
So i've been thinking about this build. Are there any replays vs actual good zergs? I'm talking 2800+. No offense but anything below just isn't 'good'. The zergs i play utilize infestor turtle remax. Which seems like it would rape the hell out of this strat. 2 spines will shut down ur opening harass easily. I feel like this would only work vs newbs or people that haven't seen this before. Seems like a one trick pony tbh. can we get some real replays please?
Loved the replays. Very impressive. I think I have to work on my marine micro more before I could try something like this out myself.
I really like your building placement. Especially on Metalopolis and Xel Naga Caverns. Extending the ramp with your rax and CC, very cool
I also like how you make the turrets at an expo and then move the CC there. So many people do it in the reverse order and get rolled...
In some of the later games you transitioned into mass raven towards the end. Do you think it is worth getting a single raven earlier so that you can save tumour scans for extra mules?
On December 23 2010 05:21 ReachTheSky wrote: So i've been thinking about this build. Are there any replays vs actual good zergs? I'm talking 2800+. No offense but anything below just isn't 'good'. The zergs i play utilize infestor turtle remax. Which seems like it would rape the hell out of this strat. 2 spines will shut down ur opening harass easily. I feel like this would only work vs newbs or people that haven't seen this before. Seems like a one trick pony tbh. can we get some real replays please?
by the time he has infestors out you will have tanks. pure MM(+M) versus infestors is just impossible. There is a replay against a ~3000 level zerg (EGStrifeCro). You usually can't put down two spines before the 5 marine push on most maps. In fact, marines will typically arrive BEFORe spine crawlers are even half way finished.
On December 23 2010 05:21 ReachTheSky wrote: So i've been thinking about this build. Are there any replays vs actual good zergs? I'm talking 2800+. No offense but anything below just isn't 'good'. The zergs i play utilize infestor turtle remax. Which seems like it would rape the hell out of this strat. 2 spines will shut down ur opening harass easily. I feel like this would only work vs newbs or people that haven't seen this before. Seems like a one trick pony tbh. can we get some real replays please?
by the time he has infestors out you will have tanks. pure MM(+M) versus infestors is just impossible. There is a replay against a ~3000 level zerg (EGStrifeCro). You usually can't put down two spines before the 5 marine push on most maps. In fact, marines will typically arrive BEFORe spine crawlers are even half way finished.
Yeah, I've been finding that against 2 Rax Openings, its safer to get out 10 Lings as soon as I scout it and move them out of the way on the other side of the Natural ramp while further produced lings stick around the nat in order to circumvent stutter stepping.
Okay, fun thing about this build in 3v3 and 4v4 is that when a Protoss Ally is prepairing to push with a writhing mass of VRs, if I stop throwing down MULEs for economy then the VRs will annihilate just about any composition after setting the MULES I land near them on follow + Auto repair. Also allows Collosi to survive Viking and Corruptor sniping attempts for a while longer. Not as impressive in conjunction with other Protoss tech.
The funniest thing I've done with them though was Mules repairing a 30 Thor Ball + supporting Mothership that would get focused as soon as the Thors in the back sniped the enemy observers.
This build seems like it relies on something that I would consider a bug. You should be reporting it and getting it fixed, not constructing a BO around it.
On December 24 2010 06:38 pwadoc wrote: This build seems like it relies on something that I would consider a bug. You should be reporting it and getting it fixed, not constructing a BO around it.
On December 24 2010 06:38 pwadoc wrote: This build seems like it relies on something that I would consider a bug. You should be reporting it and getting it fixed, not constructing a BO around it.
Sigh.. the TL forums
If you don't think this use of mules is broken, I don't know what to say. This is like the ultralisk bug when they killed everything repairing a structure.
I don't really understand the rush to abuse broken mechanics.
Seriously go read the strategy forum guidelines, there isn't room for QQing about mule balance here, there are already 100+ threads dedicated to that. TvZ is already quite difficult for Terran in the late-game, I don't think any high level 2k+ players can argue against this. Numerous pros themselves have already admitted to this. This is one of the very few threads/builds that can actually put Terran on even footing in macro/econ with Zerg in mid-late game.
On December 23 2010 05:21 ReachTheSky wrote: So i've been thinking about this build. Are there any replays vs actual good zergs? I'm talking 2800+. No offense but anything below just isn't 'good'. The zergs i play utilize infestor turtle remax. Which seems like it would rape the hell out of this strat. 2 spines will shut down ur opening harass easily. I feel like this would only work vs newbs or people that haven't seen this before. Seems like a one trick pony tbh. can we get some real replays please?
if you look at the replays strifecro is 3k. Dunno if theirs others but was used against him and beat him.
Basically, its just a way for terran to get the same bonus as if he triple early expanded against zerg, but without actually being vulnerable to early aggression from zerg in any way, and while starting off with 2rax pressure/abuse. Great find.
Now zerg just needs to find a way to triple expand in the face of a 2rax build, and saturate everything within 3 minutes of the expansions going down, while still producing enough defenses to hold off aggression from 2 barracks, and then everyone can go into the midgame on an even footing.
Ah, how I wish zerg also had the option to "just go and kill him" when faced with something like that. Why does this work vs zerg, and not other races? Other race can actually punish someone for investing over a thousand minerals into something else than army or defenses.
Yep - its a TvZ strat, mainly because baneling busts can actually be defended against with good simcity, where as timed tank/3-gate robo pushes/etc makes it impossible to defend against.
This build is easily crushed by a decent player. Someone tried this against me for the first time the other day and it was a joke. Basically take 3-4 base and tech up and when they push out with their large army you already have broodlords. Player I beat was ~2600 with over 1500 terran wins.
Replay? I'd be interested in the timing of his pushes. If you fast expand (ie pre 10 minute mark) he can just take a large ball of MM with stim and combat shields and deny any expansions.
On December 27 2010 07:01 grannock wrote: This build is easily crushed by a decent player. Someone tried this against me for the first time the other day and it was a joke. Basically take 3-4 base and tech up and when they push out with their large army you already have broodlords. Player I beat was ~2600 with over 1500 terran wins.
Just because you beat someone once doesn't mean the build is flawed. I don't have experience using it yet, but without posting the replay, nobody here can be certain your opponent used it right, kept pressure up properly etc.
On December 24 2010 06:38 pwadoc wrote: This build seems like it relies on something that I would consider a bug. You should be reporting it and getting it fixed, not constructing a BO around it.
Sigh.. the TL forums
If you don't think this use of mules is broken, I don't know what to say. This is like the ultralisk bug when they killed everything repairing a structure.
I don't really understand the rush to abuse broken mechanics.
Agreed, Blizzard made mules so Terran could catch up in Zergs power droning in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. This use of mules is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you.
You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose.
On December 27 2010 07:01 grannock wrote: This build is easily crushed by a decent player. Someone tried this against me for the first time the other day and it was a joke. Basically take 3-4 base and tech up and when they push out with their large army you already have broodlords. Player I beat was ~2600 with over 1500 terran wins.
Just because you beat someone once doesn't mean the build is flawed. I don't have experience using it yet, but without posting the replay, nobody here can be certain your opponent used it right, kept pressure up properly etc.
Who is to say the build is perfect?
Any build will have its weakness... whether or not 4 Basing vs 4OC is a viable counter or not is going to require this guy to put up a replay though. But from what I've seen in prior replays, even going to 3 Base early usually results in the third being sniped by the 2nd Pressure.
On December 27 2010 07:30 Griffith` wrote: Replay? I'd be interested in the timing of his pushes. If you fast expand (ie pre 10 minute mark) he can just take a large ball of MM with stim and combat shields and deny any expansions.
You know if over expansion is the problem, it might be worth investing in octodrop or hellions as your beeline to buy you time to mass a doom push. Skip tanks for a starport and wall with your OCs so they know that they expand instead of try and break your front and then take advantage of that. You can probably skip combat shield first since you have surplus minerals and the ability to make bunkers.
Its then a catch 22 where Zerg knows your econ will support a ridiculous amount of barracks units and they can't 2 base BB so the only way to fight it is power drones and get a fast third. You counter this by teching straight to starport and going drop because Zerg will be stretched with less army and less tech. I think this allows you to hit ~7/8 minutes if you do it right since its much like my 2 rax Banshee Feint.(heck, you could go banshees but drop comes out stronger and faster) This also sets you up for banshees, blue flame/tank/Thor + bio.
You just need to be able to scout if zerg is sitting on 2 or going spire or expoing which you should with your mass scan capability. I suppose if a 2 base roach bust is incoming, you should grab a banshee and hold on best you can with bunkers or I suppose a p.fort in the natural since it should be apparent if you see lots of roaches massing.
Sounds like something QXC would pull off if he tried this.
QXC actually did do 4OC last night on scrap station against Zelniq, but he did a bunker contain first to prevent the zerg from moving while he just kinda screwed out making 20 raxes and pumping marines non-stop and like 10 medivacs while he took every single expansion on the map (using PFs of-course). It was kinda hilarious.
Well a bunker contain is frequently auto-win unless you do it to TLO. Then he just does something that you've never practiced against and get an entry in the next year's pimpest players.
It wasn't a typical bunker contain, it was sort of a contain to prevent a 3rd. Zerg still had a fast 14 hatch and was running off of two bases quite comfortably. It was a bunker contain to prevent Z from getting a 3rd. Gonna see if QXC saved that replay.
On December 27 2010 07:30 Griffith` wrote: Replay? I'd be interested in the timing of his pushes. If you fast expand (ie pre 10 minute mark) he can just take a large ball of MM with stim and combat shields and deny any expansions.
He tried the 5m with scv bunker contain to take my natural. I blocked it with fast lings. At around 10 he tried to push out but retreated when i had speed banes, by 15 mins I had 4 bases including the gold, and when he finally felt confident enough to push out I had broodlords. Any zerg worth a dam can easily have infestor + speed banes at the 8-10 min mark and you cant just take out a large ball of MM to deny expansion, they will get crushed.
A tank push on 2 base is so much more deadly than this build. You get the tanks faster if you dont build 4 OC's.
If you have a large force of infestors + speed banelings at the 8-10 minute mark you probably didn't take your 3rd before 10 minutes. To be honest I'm not even sure how you are able to muster a sizeable force of infestors + banelings at 8minutes. Eco-baneling busts are typically timed at 8 minutes. So the fact that you have sizable force of infestors + banelings at 8 minutes seems... impossible lol.
Even if you did go for that bling/infestor combo, you probably have only 2 bases with relatively low saturation. There would have been no need to try and deny the 3rd. The natural response to baneling/infestor would be for Terran to take his 3rd earlier (at around 12-13 minutes) using a CC->PF while teching to tanks (because you had no mutas, he would have been able to save on turret money for that fast CC).
The first tank + MM push should come at the latest, around 15 minutes with 1/1 on infantry, and at least 1/0 or 1/1 on tanks.
Just played against this and it seems pretty broken. I was playing 3 vs 2 base ZvT and was being outmined by 1K+ the entire time. I don't really see a reason to ladder until this is patched to be honest.
He's got the same number of bases if you count his 4 ocs as 4x5 temporary scvs, unless you had another base on him...but you may not be at 24x3 drones though...
I've been playing around with this build TvZ and I have to say I really love it. Thanks for posting! I had been doing a 3 in base OC strat before I read this thread that I had just kinda come up with fooling around and I liked it but it wasn't as refined as this build and didn't include the early 2 rax pressure. This build also seems to force me to macro harder which is always a good thing, and my APM when using this build is significantly higher, so at the very worst it's a good build for practicing keyboard speed as you have to constantly calldown/produce mass rax units, etc...
In the handful of games I've used this build I've been able to easily stave off mid game mass muta and early roach pressure at the mid diamond level.
On December 27 2010 15:09 Griffith` wrote: Grannock,
Did you 14 Hatch then pool in that game?
I have been strictly going 11 pool 18 hatch because when people try to do a 5 marine pressure i destroy it and then am ahead. I did not think that 11 pool would be suitable on the upper diamond ladder, and boy was I wrong, its easily way better than 14 hatch 13 pool. The econ is relatively the same if you drone out, and if your being harassed, those 8 lings that much faster makes all the difference.
On December 27 2010 15:09 Griffith` wrote: If you have a large force of infestors + speed banelings at the 8-10 minute mark you probably didn't take your 3rd before 10 minutes. To be honest I'm not even sure how you are able to muster a sizeable force of infestors + banelings at 8minutes. Eco-baneling busts are typically timed at 8 minutes. So the fact that you have sizable force of infestors + banelings at 8 minutes seems... impossible lol.
Even if you did go for that bling/infestor combo, you probably have only 2 bases with relatively low saturation. There would have been no need to try and deny the 3rd. The natural response to baneling/infestor would be for Terran to take his 3rd earlier (at around 12-13 minutes) using a CC->PF while teching to tanks (because you had no mutas, he would have been able to save on turret money for that fast CC).
The first tank + MM push should come at the latest, around 15 minutes with 1/1 on infantry, and at least 1/0 or 1/1 on tanks.
Its really easy to get an infestor + speed banes at 8 mins. Think about it. You can get this out faster than a muta. The thing about econ baneling busts is that your wasting a ton of banes, at least 6-10. Thats why these busts are aimed at 8 mins, cause u need the 6-10 banes to bust, and then a ton of troops to actually damage. If your just playing defensive you can get 6-10 banes, 20 lings, and an infestor. This will make anyone but the most insanely skilled micro terran unable to push without tanks. If they are going 4 CC they will not have enough tanks, will not have banshee, and will not be forcing the zerg to make mutas which is a huge resource sieve.
If they actually go banshee on 4 OC, I'd assume they are not going to early pressure with marines, and then the build is easily predicted and one can go muta/bane and hold them off the same way.
Just by making 2 banshee it forces the zerg to waste 700/700 at least on muta tech and 5 mutas. Thats so huge. Baneling speed, infestor nest, 1 infestor 10 banes, and like 20 + lings equivalent. And the later gets out quicker than 5 mutas.
The only build that seems to work very well against me, and I assume all zergs, (watch the GSL IMMVP KOTH) is the 2 base marine tank push that seems all but unbeatable. The only way I can hold these off is with extremely fast broodlords playing the same way I did against 4 OC. And without the 4 OC you may have less marines, but the push comes sooner and that timing is what is deadly, not extra marines.
On December 27 2010 15:53 aquanda wrote: Just played against this and it seems pretty broken. I was playing 3 vs 2 base ZvT and was being outmined by 1K+ the entire time. I don't really see a reason to ladder until this is patched to be honest.
I hope you are kidding men, wtf... You let build the terran 4 OC's and then you whine about it being broken? Yesterday I played against a zerg that made 4 hatches before 10:00 and I lost. I don't really see a reason to ladder until this is patched to be honest.
Seriously......People are whining way to much. Ive done it plenty atimes (2600+ diamond). Most of the good zergs either super bust me or just mass mutas/blings/lings but usually more muta's.
As per requests I have a few more 4OC builds uploaded for you guys vs zergs I play/practice with. They aren't the biggest players(i keep forgetting to save the 1s I do vs Rigid/other zergs).
I still believe a heavy bio play is the best option as u can apply pressure and other transitions may be too weak to support(due to attack timing coming so late and any good zerg will know how to stop it by the time the attack comes)
EDIT:
Addressing some of the issues people are having about the build(saying its OP and such). ANY GOOD ZERG PLAYER WILL COUNTER THIS EASILY IF THEY CAN SCOUT 4 OC's!
If u look closely in both my games I just put up, I let the zerg scout me in the 2nd 1 and he reacted to it correctly to beat me in the macro game(but due to him being not the best player) I was still able to out macro him and win in the end. In the first 1, Blade was unable to scout me and reacted thinking it was just a standard 2rax into expo and paid the price that was similar to what happened in the EGstrifecro game of the SCL finals.
The idea is that it's supposed to surprise them when they finally do see it and by then their window of opportunity to crush u(7-10 min mark) is usually gone. Honestly u can compare this build to any kind of tech path with DT's probably being the best example. DT tech utterly fails if u can scout the dark shrine warping when its less then 50% complete. But in this case, what u scout is a massive risk the T is taking by dropping 4OC's and preparing for a insane macro game.
Anything can be stopped just by scouting and preparing for it properly.
I usually scan the zerg at around 6 minutes (right before the 4th OC goes up to get a sense of what he's doing.) If I see a low drone count i bunker up asap and do the bunker trick (1-2 marines in each bunker, or full bunker and micro marines out once banelings come knocking) and spread out the remaining marines into singletons.
How easily do you think the build is scouted? I often shift-P to queue 3-4 patrolling marines to make it really hard for an overlord to scout the OCs between 7-9 minutes.
im a 3k terran having moderate success with this build
my biggest problem is securing the natural on wide maps like xel naga and metalopolis. good zergs seem to either prevent me from doing so by hitting me right as my cc lands with mass slings/blings and because i just spent 2k on the OCs my army just isnt big enough to hold it off...
any suggestions? i'm thinking of either
1) taking my natural later, since 4 mules on one base still gives very good income. wait until i have tanks before taking it.
2) use my existing OCs to wall off. what could be bad about letting the zerg see the OCs? if you see he double expands cant you just push out at about 120~ food to deny his 3rd and 4th?
1) Scan at 6 minutes to figure out if he's going eco sling bling (low drone count, no lair, etc.) If he is, delay your 4th CC and goto step two. Scout again at around 7 minutes to determine ling/bling count. you NEED to triple bunker (PROPER SIMCITY, make bunkers so they are touching the natural's CC. ie. they can't touch your expo CC without getting hit by bunkers, and never make two bunkers touch one another (so baneling building splash can't take out two bunkers at once). 2) Put a bunker first right below your ramp first so you can use your ramp marines to defend the bunker while its building. Once that bunker goes up, then you can make 2 raxes right next to it. to begin your wall-off. Once you have the 2 raxes + bunker done, you should be able to secure your CC 3) Using OCs to wall-off can be dangerous if he decides to add roaches, as you wont be able to fire back.
(You are probably most interested in the 2 hatch baneling bust section)
Remember, this build takes a ton of practice, but in nearly all instances, the more you practice, the better you do, the sky really is the limit. Where as with something like 2 thor push, there is only so much you can do until practice fails to yield any additional dividends.
It's actually ok to do the 3OC version if zerg eco baneling busts you because he's committing so much of his economy to try and hurt you.
On December 27 2010 08:46 Griffith` wrote: You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose.
That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it.
That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it.
Please explain how using 2 orbital commands on 2 bases is ok but using 4 orbital commands on 2 bases is "abusive and game-breaking in the extreme" because it sounds like you are just raging against mules in general. Write some emails to blizzard about capping the number of available mules if you have a problem with people using 4 OCs. Be sure to include your RTS game design resume so they know that you know your shit. Who knows, maybe they might offer you a job to help design the expansions.
On December 27 2010 08:46 Griffith` wrote: You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose.
That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it.
No I don't think its bullshit. With most TvZ builds, in almost every mid-game TvZ, Terran is behind in income against the Zerg, this build only serves to close the income disparity towards Terran's favor. I don't see how in the slightest it is "abusive" and "game-breaking". Oh boohoo, terrans now all of a sudden have viable mid-game! QQ
On December 27 2010 08:46 Griffith` wrote: You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose.
That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it.
No I don't think its bullshit. With most TvZ builds, in almost every mid-game TvZ, Terran is behind in income against the Zerg, this build only serves to close the income disparity towards Terran's favor. I don't see how in the slightest it is "abusive" and "game-breaking". Oh boohoo, terrans now all of a sudden have viable mid-game! QQ
You always had a midgame. You are overpowered in the midgame. You're abusing the fact that mules can oversaturate a mineral patch. It should be patched out of the game, because it's obviously a bug. You're abusing a bug, and designed an entire build around it.
I'm pretty sure mules being able to oversaturate a mineral patch is there by design, else MULEs will have no utility in a saturated base. I think you jump to conclusions far too quickly. 4OC is not an I-win build, there is so much execution-dependence that player skill plays a huge role in its success.
Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
On December 31 2010 08:19 SecretA5DC wrote: Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
i'd love to know if there's another way, but i just hotkey them all together =)
On December 31 2010 08:19 SecretA5DC wrote: Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
Pretty sure you just have to hotkey them together, no other trick to it. As for the positioning, I'd assume you'd want to keep your extras hidden for as long as possible, so at least until you get all 4 scouted you should keep your extra 2 in your main. After they've been scouted I suppose you can put them wherever you want them, possibly as part of a wall-off if needed. Just make sure they're well protected because losing them wouldn't be a great idea.
On December 30 2010 17:47 Griffith` wrote: 1) Scan at 6 minutes to figure out if he's going eco sling bling (low drone count, no lair, etc.) If he is, delay your 4th CC and goto step two. Scout again at around 7 minutes to determine ling/bling count. you NEED to triple bunker (PROPER SIMCITY, make bunkers so they are touching the natural's CC. ie. they can't touch your expo CC without getting hit by bunkers, and never make two bunkers touch one another (so baneling building splash can't take out two bunkers at once). 2) Put a bunker first right below your ramp first so you can use your ramp marines to defend the bunker while its building. Once that bunker goes up, then you can make 2 raxes right next to it. to begin your wall-off. Once you have the 2 raxes + bunker done, you should be able to secure your CC 3) Using OCs to wall-off can be dangerous if he decides to add roaches, as you wont be able to fire back.
(You are probably most interested in the 2 hatch baneling bust section)
Remember, this build takes a ton of practice, but in nearly all instances, the more you practice, the better you do, the sky really is the limit. Where as with something like 2 thor push, there is only so much you can do until practice fails to yield any additional dividends.
It's actually ok to do the 3OC version if zerg eco baneling busts you because he's committing so much of his economy to try and hurt you.
econ sling bling varys, the recently more popular econ sling bling is 40~ workers, lair tech, bling spd--gg ur opponent or tech mutas if needed. Incorporate siege tech into this build to make it more viable. If you can hide the tech, the build is great, however, if any competent zerg spots it, its very easy to punish.
On December 31 2010 08:19 SecretA5DC wrote: Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
Pretty sure you just have to hotkey them together, no other trick to it. As for the positioning, I'd assume you'd want to keep your extras hidden for as long as possible, so at least until you get all 4 scouted you should keep your extra 2 in your main. After they've been scouted I suppose you can put them wherever you want them, possibly as part of a wall-off if needed. Just make sure they're well protected because losing them wouldn't be a great idea.
What do you mean by Hotkeying them together? So I ctrl-1 one OC, and then select another OC and press ctrl-1?
The way I been doing it is just selecting CC's near each other and then hotkeying them, I thought there was another way to select CC's that are out of your screen range.
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles.
No I don't think its bullshit. With most TvZ builds, in almost every mid-game TvZ, Terran is behind in income against the Zerg, this build only serves to close the income disparity towards Terran's favor. I don't see how in the slightest it is "abusive" and "game-breaking". Oh boohoo, terrans now all of a sudden have viable mid-game! QQ
Terrans have always had a viable mid game just watch Jinro play. Zerg needs the additional income because their units are very cost inafective compared to terrans. A zerg on 3 bases is about equal to a terran on 2 bases, because of our units. By exploiting the fact that you can over saturate your mineral patches by building extra orbital commands seemes to me to be cheezy. I do hope they nurf orbital commands because they cause way to many problems for the other races, especially in the late game.
On December 31 2010 08:49 Griffith` wrote: To SecretA5DC
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles.
I haven't had too much success getting to late game on the Korean servers. On the NA servers, 90% of the time, Zerg players go FE with either Pool first or Hatch first. But on KR there's a lot more Zerg all in and/or cheeses and they usually try to go for a bling bust or RR off one base which throws me off my game.
But whenever I do get to late game, the Mules def help keep me in contention. I just need to work on Marine micro more.
On December 31 2010 08:49 Griffith` wrote: To SecretA5DC
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles.
I haven't had too much success getting to late game on the Korean servers. On the NA servers, 90% of the time, Zerg players go FE with either Pool first or Hatch first. But on KR there's a lot more Zerg all in and/or cheeses and they usually try to go for a bling bust or RR off one base which throws me off my game.
But whenever I do get to late game, the Mules def help keep me in contention. I just need to work on Marine micro more.
Wow, you have a RoK account. I wish I did to test openings. If you can reliably execute a macro opening that survives on RoK, you'd be some sort of hero. Reps for the 4 Orb and 2 rax expos versus heavy aggression would be quite useful.
On December 31 2010 08:49 Griffith` wrote: To SecretA5DC
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles.
I haven't had too much success getting to late game on the Korean servers. On the NA servers, 90% of the time, Zerg players go FE with either Pool first or Hatch first. But on KR there's a lot more Zerg all in and/or cheeses and they usually try to go for a bling bust or RR off one base which throws me off my game.
But whenever I do get to late game, the Mules def help keep me in contention. I just need to work on Marine micro more.
Hm interesting, I actually dont have problem with 1base zerg, as 2 bunkers at ramp holds off 99% of cheeses they can do off 1-base play. I'm surprised by the Korean zergs then. You don't even have to 4OC to beat 1-base those kinda plays, just standard 2 rax FE, or even 3OC will give you a big enough of an economic advantage to plow through mid-game.
Keep in mind this I'm Mid Tier Plat on KOR server while Diamond on NA. I just play there whenever I'm home for break. I'm sure for the top 3K+ Korean zergs they open up hatch first and can block early harass and can macro effectively late game.
I know games played isn't a good indicator of skill but you got Koreans in Gold League and Plat league with Carrier icons or Kerrigan icons.
On December 31 2010 08:19 SecretA5DC wrote: Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
Pretty sure you just have to hotkey them together, no other trick to it. As for the positioning, I'd assume you'd want to keep your extras hidden for as long as possible, so at least until you get all 4 scouted you should keep your extra 2 in your main. After they've been scouted I suppose you can put them wherever you want them, possibly as part of a wall-off if needed. Just make sure they're well protected because losing them wouldn't be a great idea.
What do you mean by Hotkeying them together? So I ctrl-1 one OC, and then select another OC and press ctrl-1?
Press shift + 1 to add a selected unit to a group. So either grab both your CCs and press ctrl + 1 to add them at once, or if you already have a CC on 1, then press shift + 1 while the newer CC is selected.
Set the SCV waypoints to their respective mineral patches and you never have to look at your CCs again, just 1ss if you have two CCs, or 1sss if you have 3 etc.
I am about to start trying this strat out. The thing that made me finally say to myself to try this, is that when I lose to zerg, I ALWAYS lose to zerg when I am attacking HIM. I never lose by going heavy econ and getting run over at my base. This may happen to me with this strat, but I am going to play the odds and figure that the zerg would rather spam the map than come attack me.
After watching many of the replays, I also find it nice that you replenish so fast. Lets face it, one way or another the zerg is going to make blings, and the zerg is going to blow your shit up. Its going to happen over and over every game until you drop him enough or wear him down on resources and bases. Sooooooo, why not use a strat that replenishes this fast?
Thanks for the very specific write up, I look forward to seeing 80 marines blow up then make 80 more.
Just want to say that I played this strat exclusively today and have been getting extremely good results. TvZ used to be, by far, my weak match-up, I think that it's now my best. This is just so strong. The point is just to stay alive long enough for your OC to kick in, then you've got such a good economy, it's ridiculous. You can then start denying his expos and even if he blows your shit up, you can remake them so fast, it's crazy. Also, not only mules gives you a good economy but you can also saturate your expos extremely fast with this build.
This really is a new approach and every zerg I have been playing against today have raged-quit saying that this is OP and the game is imbalanced. A few days ago I was getting raped by mutas.
On January 01 2011 15:38 Foxtrot wrote: Just want to say that I played this strat exclusively today and have been getting extremely good results. TvZ used to be, by far, my weak match-up, I think that it's now my best. This is just so strong. The point is just to stay alive long enough for your OC to kick in, then you've got such a good economy, it's ridiculous. You can then start denying his expos and even if he blows your shit up, you can remake them so fast, it's crazy. Also, not only mules gives you a good economy but you can also saturate your expos extremely fast with this build.
This really is a new approach and every zerg I have been playing against today have raged-quit saying that this is OP and the game is imbalanced. A few days ago I was getting raped by mutas.
Forgot to say that I am 2350 Diamond in US servers.
On January 01 2011 15:38 Foxtrot wrote: Just want to say that I played this strat exclusively today and have been getting extremely good results. TvZ used to be, by far, my weak match-up, I think that it's now my best. This is just so strong. The point is just to stay alive long enough for your OC to kick in, then you've got such a good economy, it's ridiculous. You can then start denying his expos and even if he blows your shit up, you can remake them so fast, it's crazy. Also, not only mules gives you a good economy but you can also saturate your expos extremely fast with this build.
This really is a new approach and every zerg I have been playing against today have raged-quit saying that this is OP and the game is imbalanced. A few days ago I was getting raped by mutas.
Forgot to say that I am 2350 Diamond in US servers.
On January 01 2011 15:38 Foxtrot wrote: Just want to say that I played this strat exclusively today and have been getting extremely good results. TvZ used to be, by far, my weak match-up, I think that it's now my best. This is just so strong. The point is just to stay alive long enough for your OC to kick in, then you've got such a good economy, it's ridiculous. You can then start denying his expos and even if he blows your shit up, you can remake them so fast, it's crazy. Also, not only mules gives you a good economy but you can also saturate your expos extremely fast with this build.
This really is a new approach and every zerg I have been playing against today have raged-quit saying that this is OP and the game is imbalanced. A few days ago I was getting raped by mutas.
Glad its working out well for you! Post some reps when you get a chance.
I'd go 3 OCs in base on a smaller open nat map, drop one at the nat when safe, and then make 2 more to PF my 3rd and 4th, so I end up with 3 OCs for mass scan/mules.
It really is imba, although I wouldn't suggest mass marines really... but that's just because I moved away from them.
I played foxtrot not a few days ago on either allbusiness or iamjeffrey!
I found, when I 2 rax no gas, I can afford to get the 2 extra CCs as I turtle and harass with hellions, just so long as I have two facs up with tech labs when I drop expo to nat, and get both gasses. Then you can churn out thors or siege tanks effectively forcing the zerg to change units so you're back on even ground, just with heavy mule usage.
On January 02 2011 02:47 iAmJeffReY wrote: I'd go 3 OCs in base on a smaller open nat map, drop one at the nat when safe, and then make 2 more to PF my 3rd and 4th, so I end up with 3 OCs for mass scan/mules.
It really is imba, although I wouldn't suggest mass marines really... but that's just because I moved away from them.
I played foxtrot not a few days ago on either allbusiness or iamjeffrey!
I found, when I 2 rax no gas, I can afford to get the 2 extra CCs as I turtle and harass with hellions, just so long as I have two facs up with tech labs when I drop expo to nat, and get both gasses. Then you can churn out thors or siege tanks effectively forcing the zerg to change units so you're back on even ground, just with heavy mule usage.
Actually, my bnet username is not Foxtrot, it's Doombringer
I've been playing some FFA as T, and I've realized that it doesn't really matter how many SCVs you get above the minimum for however many gas you want, because with 5 OC you can suck a golds dry in like 3 min.
I was just thinking if in PvT you scouted early or rushed DT tech, wouldn't it be a good timing window to construct a 3rd OC to serve as a stopgap measure while teching up to your Ravens and then used for MULES after your Raven is completed?
In the OP, you stated good to perfect macro will get you a 200/200 army by 13-14 minutes. I've done this build twice now on ladder (won both times but i think i was matched with sub-par zergs). However, I never approach the 200/200 at the 14 minute mark, even in practice against a medium computer. Not even close.... Am I doing something horribly wrong? The second replay on scrap station is probably the better one to watch. Also, I'd appreciate any tips ^^
I have done this strategy against Zerg a couple of times and it is quite strong.
This makes me wonder, it is possible to do this vs Protoss? When will Protoss have an observer in your base and detect what you are doing?
Also, can your economic advantage kick in early enough so that you can overwhelm a teching Protoss with Marines and Mauraders? Protoss teching up is much more scary than Zerg trying to do the same thing.
I don't really know why people insist on hiding this. You're going to be 2 raxxing so zerg has to defend for a little bit. Then he's not going to worry as much because its not the SCV pull variant. Then he's going to scout and see you have 2+X OC.
Then what is he going to do? You can almost wall your whole nat with floated OCs and if you go rax rax fact then he's not going to be able to roach or bling bust through a production wall, a CC wall with tanks behind them and perhaps bunkers. Then his only real option is going to have to mass expand to counter.
I'm not sure what hiding this actually does for you. Better to show and force a predictable the mass expand response and use your ridiculous harass units (hellion/banshee/medivac) to deal with it before pushing out and taking your extra bases.
I do think that the 3 OC is somewhat more optimal. You're not delaying your tech as much and you can take that crucial third with a PFort and actually have 3 base worth of income from not mining out your main as quickly. Zerg can easily have infestors when you push out late with bio so getting tanks and ravens or whatever tech is quite important.
I'd personally want to see more mech variant reps. I'd also be curious if there are any ways you can push your growth curve by cutting SCVs in favor of OCs.
ive been practicing this strat and it works great so far. I have problems massing the army fast enough, and getting 2/2 + upgrades, but it still works like a charm, and the obvious counter to this(banes/infestors) are easily countered by micro+ fast medivacs. Support marines with some marauders on the front, try to engage in a choke point, and laugh at the next 100 supply marines killing off all opposition. Great work figuring this one out, needs good apm and macro/micro skills though. Surviving the first minutes is quite easy if u delay ur 4th CC, 2 barracks and 1 cc as wall works like a charm, if u spot raoches just repair bunkers, if he goes bust he wont be able to take out more than ur 1 barracks, because the marines besides barracks will shoot the first banes anyway, so u just place marines on choke point of destructed barracks and defend against lings.
Funniest thing about mass marines is that if your opponents commits too much to banes to kill you then he has no units to counter attack.
Ever since I started using this build, I've only lost one game to zerg. This build is simply amazing. It allows youto outmacro a zerg player quite easily. Sometimes I do a 3OC, only because I have so many resources flowing in with only three, that I can keep my prdouction constant. I've tried this build out a little against protoss, I've had some luck with it, but fending off a 4gate is a little tough. All in all, this build hs allowed me to win over 3/4ths of my games against zerg since I've been using it. It simply works wonders.
Just started using this build yesterday Im at 2600diamond, currently 7-1 with it, only lost the first match because it was my first time trying the build, the Grifith 4OC is amazing =D
On January 14 2011 06:00 Griffith` wrote: Finally getting my computer back this weekend so I can run some more tests and get some more replays in.
Question: how difficult do you find mid-game, late-game TvZ is when using 4OC compared to other Terran builds?
If you are in the lower leagues because of macro or micro issues (60 APM or lower), this build is not very usable outside of 3v3 and 4v4 matches. As a transition rather than an opening build, I've found it useful, especially if I snipe a Zerg player's 3rd and 4th while I grab 2 more bases for gas where I can actually transition into Endless Thors off 3 Facts at which point I usually start an A-Move roflstomping after the first 9 are finished. Granted these first 9 have Marine support, but as the Marines die out and more Thors join them (Via Dropships I managed to keep alive), it becomes near unstoppable as you reach 20 Thors.
LOADS of fun in 3v3 on maps where you can get away with it (Typhon in particular is a stand out example since it's such a macro oriented team map since the opponent attempting the back door usually results in the game pushing past the 7-9 minute vulnerability while initial pushes against the front door prior to 10 minutes usually results in them losing much of their army. Your mass Marines hard counter even a multiple mass air play. I've expanded to as much as 5 Base Gas on this map without trouble). I don't play much 4v4 since it pushes my computer to its limitations but I imagine it's even more fun on shared base 4v4 Maps.
I find that the build worked very well when I was mid-Diamond, now when I have moved up a bit and play mostly vs higher-Diamond players it is not as strong any more. Good Zerg players actually expand their economy so fast that it is just even come mid-game with this build.
Not sure what it the best anti-Zerg strategy though. Marine/SCV all in works great vs mid-Diamond and lower but not against better Zerg players.
Lol just saw Slayers_Boxer use mass OC in late game tvt. Totally awesome when he's earning 3 times the mineral income as his opponent and drop mules on tank positions.
Edit: lol and once again IMMvp vs oGsHyperdub, mass expands with OC, reducing the number of SCVs he uses, allowing him to constantly putting pressure with pure bio, wiping out a 3 base terran.
If you are in the lower leagues because of macro or micro issues (60 APM or lower), this build is not very usable outside of 3v3 and 4v4 matches.
Disagree completely. I started using this build when I was in Bronze and snapped many-a-neck with it.
Question: how difficult do you find mid-game, late-game TvZ is when using 4OC compared to other Terran builds?
mid-game and late-game aren't the problem for me. Early game is. I struggle against 7RR and Baneling Bursts when using this build because I feel that getting 4OC's leaves me somewhat vulnerable early on in the game, particularly if the zerg is 1 basing. For this reason I have been only getting 3 CC's before getting gas + factories rather than 4 and I feel a lot safer that way having siege tech much faster.
I tend to do 2 oc 1 gas 3oc 2nd gas 4th PF with this build.
Tried it out quite a lot of variations with this build, but if you decide to open with 2rax, you have to commit to your agression. The gas before 3rd OC is to get stim out earlier and transition into upgrades + medivacs or/and siege tanks a little sooner if you're facing off against roaches or other stuff.
The way I see this build is to just do marine pressure / bunker rush, and force out a lot of units. Once you're able to keep pressuring the zerg, you semi-retreat to your base to get bunkers @ your expand, and expansion running. Once this is the case, you will want to pressure again to finalize your economic advantage. Once your 3rd OC is up, you should be able to start working towards your 3rd base as a planetary fortress, while getting as much tech as you can.
And by the way, I have tried the strike cannon thor drops :D They work awesome, but you should do multiple pronged harrass while doing it. It's best if the zerg sends all his bullshit gruond to deal with 3 hellions or something, and he misses the thor drop. If the thors manage to shoot before the zerg army is there, the zerg will be hard pressed to handle the thors with just mutalisks or backup units.
The only critique on the thor drop is that once the zerg has enough air forces, its very hard to get through to his base. Dropping thors to save medivacs is very inefficient and very dangerous to your units, but if you manage to macro on par with the zerg, an unexpected thor drop wreaks havoc to the zergs mind. The few times the thor drops won me the game it wasnt because I killed a lair and a hatchery. The thordrops won me the game because the zerg tilted into full agression mode which left him very weakened :D
I'm going to double post but I need to bump this with one thing you should consider when doing a gas heavy Raven vs zerg where you keep falling behind on your macro. A good idea if you are having trouble keeping up with ridiculous mineral intake is to to throw down a reactor factory. That's 400 minerals per minute and is a fast way balance out a spike in income IE mass transfer to a third base or getting some extra OCs.
The reactor factory is the biggest mineral sink Terran has and one of the faster things you can get up and running. Hellions also benefit greatly from the reduced creep spread from Ravens. They don't get taken out by speedlings and take advantage of bases that aren't creep linked. This can make sure Zerg can't ninja an expo. They kill lings and in large numbers counter nearly every zerg ground unit not an ultralisk due to massive splash overlap.
If hellions get a good angle, they do good damage to almost any ball/mass of units. I incorporate hellions any chance I get. Definitely worth it against any race if you're high on minerals.
I'm having good success if I 2 rax FE before I put down 3rd rax, put 3rd OC in base to over sat 2 bases, and easily macro out a marine tank push that can at least attempt to draw mutas back.
However, not playing too much 2 rax anymore, I'm wondering how to mix in a 3rd OC for creep scans/mules doing a 1-1 FE into 3-1-1 build...
Nay, I go 1-1 expo, drop 2 more rax and a starport, tech lab on fac + 1 rax, ebay for +1, viking + marine octodrop into marine tank pushes is my normal TvZ
Viking to clear some OLs to make drop less noticeable, run in snipe queen and any drones pick and run. Been workin half way decently, as drop hits before muta comes.
I'm not that familiar with this build to be honest but it sounds like the one that Pookie used to do except it goes into marine production earlier and do tanks instead of a 2 of everything.
What do you think about trying to get the 2nd CC by delaying the barracks and possibly cutting one barracks until after the port and relying on 2 rax with some sort of siege support instead? I think the general strategy for integrating extra OCs where bio is involved is to delay/reorder barracks so instead of having some early, you get the extra CCs. This boosts your income so you can put down more Rax a little later to achieve the same unit count sometime down the road.
On some maps with extremely long rush distances and relatively safe naturals, 1-rax expand into 2rax into 3OC is actually fairly strong as well. Thing is, I like 2-rax because it offers me mobility - the ability to run around and scare the shit out of zerg without committing to an attack.
This build is actually working out really well for me. Im not at a very high level though, 2.6k diamond. What I usually do is, I put 2 more rax and 2 factories up after ive taken my 2 gas, its around approximately 40 food id guess. I put down 2 bunkers at my natural, and just pumping marines, marauders and siege tanks. When my third tank is finished, the opponent is trying to take a third, and most times i can quite easily just simply kill it. Then im adding more rax and factories and also getting some thors, hellions or other stuff, depending on what my opponent does. But after i successfully denied his third its really just a matter of time, I can easily contain him with my tanks and slow push him until a gg pops up and i can eventually claim the victory.
Ahh... I've played Griffith several times and totally got dominated before I ever even knew that this thread existed. And I go on TL and see this post! The reason this build is so powerful is because it causes the zerg to require an almost perfect game to counter well and it never gives the zerg a safe opportunity to macro up and drone.
As a zerg, I have several notes on what zergs can do and what T needs to watch out for.
I would say the most effective playstyle zerg should adopt is a mix of sling/bling with massive creep spread into overlord drops with baneling bombs/slings/ultras
I believe I am on the losing side of several of the replays posted but on hindsight, I still don't think I played calmly.
Speed roaches are also quite effective and less headachy on the micro side if you like a-moving
is this build still up to date? I am looking for new tvz build, and this is very different form anything i ve ever seen, so it will take some time to adapt.
On February 01 2011 15:49 Griffith` wrote: oops the first zerg isn't, he's #1 in his diamond division, the second x'naga caverns one is in masters, sry got replays confused
I'm telling you though, you should try to get up a 3v3 or 4v4 team and try out some variants for this build.
I love this build, the only times I've lost are the times I forgot to take a new expansion. You mine out so fast. You really need to mass expand to reap the benefits of this build.
I got bored one game, decided to try it. Holy... I can A-move in Diamond now XD!
I've lost twice: Once was to nydus cheese (I sensed cheese, made a lot of bunkers at my nat/ramp... and got nydus'd.- even then, it was only bad control that made me lose), and to sheer stupidity (I got complacent, having killed zerg's 3rd, nat, main, and tech.. zerg went into hero muta micro, and I was unable to secure my 3rd due to sheer stupidity.)
Otherwise, I've been rolling people. I'm adapting this to protoss, so far it's been so-so, died to a 4 gate (bad control... noticing a theme?), and a blink stalker timing push (Which just rolled me, so eh.)
Been doing this in at the master league level against 2800 opponents.Will post replays for everyone soon. I have a question for Griffith though: Around how many SCVs do you usually stop producing them once your 4oc starts to kick in?
On February 01 2011 15:52 Zombo Joe wrote: I love this build, the only times I've lost are the times I forgot to take a new expansion. You mine out so fast. You really need to mass expand to reap the benefits of this build.
It's very nice because you are able to fend off muta harass with the mass marine, and have the surplus command centers to immediately begin mining at a new base.
i honestly think the best way to do this build would be to go light on the gas, possibly just get 1 gas, and get tons of barracks / marines and 5 orbital commands ASAP
use the 1 gas to build factory, tech lab, siege tank, siege mode upgrade ASAP
5 orbitals are equal to 30 mineral SCV's allowing for tons of marines, and you can have these orbitals running and mining your original base before you even expand and the zerg cannot break your wall when you have mass marines and possibly a 6-7 minutes siege tank with siege mode
after you have 5 orbitals and 26 SCV's (full 1base saturation with 2gas) you fly out your 9 barracks and create a giant wall protecting your natural and land an orbital at your natural and have siege tanks holding the choke and use the 5 orbitals to build tons of fast SCV's and mule out the natural quickly
5 orbitals will mine out all your bases quickly, but not THAAT quickly. giving you time to turret up and fortify your bases before moving on and taking the next base to fortify that base with walls and turrets
the benefit of orbitals is it allows you to turret up your bases and get some thors to stop muta harass while still having large income letting you get to that 200/200 doom army of marines, some blue flame hellions, siege tanks, and thors, vikings to counter broods
My main problem with doing the 4 orbital is that the delay in gas makes tech kind of hard. One time my opponent rushed to fungal growth and lol'd my marines. 3 orbital on the other hand isn't that out of the way, and does give you a lot of extra minerals to play with, but doesn't force you into a mineral heavy strategy.
On February 05 2011 12:12 shinosai wrote: My main problem with doing the 4 orbital is that the delay in gas makes tech kind of hard. One time my opponent rushed to fungal growth and lol'd my marines. 3 orbital on the other hand isn't that out of the way, and does give you a lot of extra minerals to play with, but doesn't force you into a mineral heavy strategy.
Yep, I've switched to 3OC as well. The cookie cutter build I use nowadays is:
10 sd 12 rax (scout after this rax is done) 14 rax 15 OC 16 sd 25 CC 25 SD 31 CC
On February 03 2011 05:52 Selkie wrote: I got bored one game, decided to try it. Holy... I can A-move in Diamond now XD!
I've lost twice: Once was to nydus cheese (I sensed cheese, made a lot of bunkers at my nat/ramp... and got nydus'd.- even then, it was only bad control that made me lose), and to sheer stupidity (I got complacent, having killed zerg's 3rd, nat, main, and tech.. zerg went into hero muta micro, and I was unable to secure my 3rd due to sheer stupidity.)
Otherwise, I've been rolling people. I'm adapting this to protoss, so far it's been so-so, died to a 4 gate (bad control... noticing a theme?), and a blink stalker timing push (Which just rolled me, so eh.)
I'd love to see this build in the TvP matchup. I tried a 3OC build vs protoss this morning, i did win but it was against a proxy zealot rush opening, not exactly a regular game. I think its possible to get 3OC and enough marines+bunkers to hold off a 4-gate.
However, i think a problem vs protoss is going to be sentries at the bottom of your ramp. You dont have enough forces to win against a 4-gate army without bunkers, so you have to turtle in the main for a while. Protoss will contain you in your base, splitting your army with sentries if you try to move out. I hate it when that happens. I guess you could bunker up at the choke of your natural, but that's very map dependent.
(oh btw, i've been using a 3OC build vs zerg for the last month and i love it. TvZ is now my best matchup, thanks griffith )
I think the broader innovation here is that Terran can build their economy faster than their SCV production speed would suggest.
This means that they can match or near match the Zerg's ability to drone hard, which in turn means that you don't have to freak out and always try to kill the Zerg early (or even necessarily harass him).
I'm sure there are a hundred good variations of 1,2, or 3 extra OCs to work into various build orders. Griffith's deeper discovery is that Terran can be a macro race too.
(and you get the extra benefit of higher army food limit w/ same economy, hard-to-kill economy, and scans).
What makes it even funnier is that you were trash talking him as he was teching up for a very solid counter. And then you let him bait your marines away from the thors into waiting Infestors, Lings and Blings so his Mutas could magicbox in peace. A few Vikings would have done the trick but you weren't even aware he was teching BLs at that point.
Also, you went 2 tech factories, pumped out Hellions afterwards and didn't start IP or SM during that time.
I was up on harvesters for most/all of the game and could rebuild an army faster than zerg! It is amazing how terran can build out of a gajillion barracks, lose the whole army to ling/bling and have a replacement army waiting to attack the remaining lings.
Any pointers would be appreciated. I know that my money got hight due to the 3OC and I really should learn to transition out of MMM with a smatter of tank/viking.
I usually run into the following scenario: 5 marine pressure is quite successful in forcing a ton of lings and sniping lings and an ovi or queen or drone. Speed hits and the zerg has now a rather weak eco, but ~20 speedlings. He is now camping at my natural preventing my expansion while getting a baneling nest to morph in blings the second I try to move out. By the time I have stim and shields and can move out, I face the following problems: 1) Zerg has drones up 2) Zerg has established a 3rd or has high muta count already 3) Extensive creep spread.
By going with such an early Rax, I can usually complete the wall off before anything but a 6 pool on Arakan Citadel, while on Typhon, it won't beat the 6 Pool, but it will beat a 2 Proxy Gate by about 20 seconds if I go with the 13 OC Into 4 Rax and wall off that whole ramp solo.
I wanna say that adding more OCs is really a great idea, i'd say it can be quite game-breaking. I don't really know why noone still uses that. Guess in the pro levels 550 minerals, which pay for themselves only after a few mins, can make you lose a game (less marines or tanks done on a certain timing), but overall still really a great idea. And the thing is that it can have multiple uses. The advantage is not only mules, but you can also fly 2 CC's (the main one and the second in-base one) to other bases. Obv, you can't defend an OC too much vs zerg in the late-game but 3OCs can still give you lots of mules and even if the base stays for a short period of time, you will get lots of minerals (this is really helpful if your other bases are close to be mined out and you don't need to spam mules on them and the energy gets pooled). That can get a zerg really surprised if he doesn't deny the floated CC like instantly. Actually that won me quite a few games. When the zerg sees that im close to being mined out and soon i won't be able to refill my tank/marine numbers, so he thinks that we're on even ground, but then an OC comes to some base, mules get called down, and there you go, you can still pump reinforcements. Almost seems like cheating, lol. Anyways, hope this idea of additional OCs get more common in time. Thanks for this.
I've been doing something like this for awhile, no set BO for throwing down the CCs I just make them when it makes sense to do so as a substitute for supply depots.
So lets say you have 2rax going, 1fact, 1port and you've just crossed the 6min line. You wont be able to sustain production if you add a 3rd rax or 2nd fact/port and you need more supply. You have 50 energy on your OC so what do you do? Throw down a supply upgrade from the OC and use your excess minerals to throw up another CC.
Generally I sacrifice my natural early on and let the CC that would have gone there just sit in the base allowing for extra mules. If you play with the idea that Gas is really the limiting factor and mules are much much better for resource gathering than SCVs it helps to make more sense.
If you need to gather more minerals somewhere you can fly an OC over to a spot and your total investment is only 550minerals, if it gets harassed by mutas... who cares! you only lost a few mules and the OC.
the nice thing is you can easily pump out thors/tanks/vikings/banshees from 2rax/2port constantly by controlling 4 gas points and 2 mineral patches... all with a grand investment of 26scvs who are being supplemented by 4-6 OCs. Then when the mules start giving you too much minerals hold back and build a few more OCs. This way you do not need to worry about the minerals and you just need to manage the gas income & spending as thats whats driving your economy.
Lol, watched GSTL today and oGsTop actually used a variation of 3OC vs zerg, was pretty awesome to see. That game actually looked very alike to that i get using 3OC.
I love this build, makes large maps bearable against Zerg,but it is very vurnerable to baneling all-in a la ST_July style.Do you think a total of 3Rax before the additional 3 or 4 CCs/OCs would be better,allowing you to defend early pushes?
@Thrombozyt If you get contained like that i think going for fast siege tanks or banshees and delaying stim/shields,will allow you to break out of that and then you can safely expand.Keep the CC energy,don't use many mules,so that you can immediately use it on your natural and catch up on economy without your main being mined out.
Griffith, I just popped this build on a 3v3 for Frontier, TTZ v TTP (My side TTP). I was able to repel a PF rush, and tank a 7 SCV + Thor Rush plus a 7 RR from 8:00-10:00 long enough for my allies to arrive and clean it up the rest with me. I lost only one SCV that I sacced to try to get his last SCV on the Thor and my macro was damaged none.
I think it's showing how easily exploitable this build is against an economic Baneling bust. You don't reap the benefits of this build until past the 13 minute mark where your army would surpass that of a standard build. Econ baneling bust spikes way sooner and with about 3 times the army size of what you have at the time.
Hey Griffith, I was wondering how well does your 3OC build do now against the new Spanishiwa style zergs do and 2base eco baneling busts.
Eco baneling busts usually come around the 7-10minute mark and are very hard to stop even with a lot of bunkers around.A smart zerg can just bust the building that is nearest to the bottom of your ramp,then a structure at the top of the ramp and run by all the zerglings in,demolishing everything.
Spanishiwa style gets tech very fast,meaning you could have broodlords/ultralisks and infestors at 12-14minutes.The 3OC build delays gas gathering and tech greatly meaning almost no vikings or ghosts at that stage of the game.
How do you deal with those situations? Can you provide replays were you had to face such zerg styles in master league.
I would imagine that the spanishiwa style is not the ideal style to play this style vs. The idea way to play it out vs the spanishiwa is take a very fast 3rd. The 3/4 OC style might seem like it fits this but I've found that the key is to take a fast 3rd (9 mins or so) that you turn into a PF quickly.
The most standard variations of the 3 or 4 OC pushes would seem to play right into spanishiwa's style as they throw things at the front door of a zerg that has found a VERY cost effective way to hold his front.
Does this strategy work at all anymore? It seems to me that Zerg players have become very good at telling the difference between real and fake pressure. The sequence become like this: 1. I do some 2 racks pressure, we trade armies. 2. I secure my expansion, he drones up. 3. I send some more units to his expansion; he kills them but does not build more military then necessary. 4. I build 2 more OCs in my base; he takes his 3rd and drones hard. 5. I try to take out his 3rd but his economy is equal or better than mine since he droned hard. I have no tanks since this build gets gas late, he wipes my army with speedlings/banelings and maybe some infestors.
Am I doing something wrong or should this build be abandoned since it seems impossible to outeco zerg, the moment you do not attack with a huge army they drone as much as they can. Is it better to just go 1-base SCV all-in or 1-base marine into tank push since that at least will keep his drone count low?
Also, what units should you build after marines? Since you take gas late it will take a long time until you have tanks with siege mode, even longer before you get them to the Zergs 3rd. I have tried going MMM instead but that is very week to almost anything but roaches.
This build actually starts to appear in long macro games, always, on maps like Tal'Darim Altar. Terrans bleed their SCVs with a mech attack and then run off mules, since there are so many places to hide orbitals, you transition into this style of play in the late game after your first 3-4 bases are mining out. You land all the orbitals behind your big attack.
I wouldn't say the strategy disappeared, it's just a very advanced lategame strategy which only gets used on giant macro maps like taldarim and terminus. You can see koreans do it from time to time.
On June 09 2011 02:16 darkscream wrote: This build actually starts to appear in long macro games, always, on maps like Tal'Darim Altar. Terrans bleed their SCVs with a mech attack and then run off mules, since there are so many places to hide orbitals, you transition into this style of play in the late game after your first 3-4 bases are mining out. You land all the orbitals behind your big attack.
I wouldn't say the strategy disappeared, it's just a very advanced lategame strategy which only gets used on giant macro maps like taldarim and terminus. You can see koreans do it from time to time.
yeah i've only seen koreans go up to 3 ocs fast off a 2 rax, haven't seen 4 in a very long time
I've tweaked this build to my own tastes in TvZ. On big macro maps (Tal'darim, Shakuras and Shattered), I go for a double expand off 2 barracks and float the first CC off with 5 SCVS loaded up to a nearby third and exploit the benefits. With a 3 bunker wall and a hidden third, it looks like I am turtling off two bases against the Zerg while in reality I'm way ahead in economy.
Even if this third gets discovered, I will have already mined enough to pay for it and have gained some benefit for it. This allows me to get a really, really powerful army quickly and do a fast 200/200 push. My composition of choice is Hellion/Thor with 0/3 upgrades and Marine or Marauder support depending if Zerg went Roach or Muta.
0/3 mech upgrades is how I deal with Infestors. Attack upgrades make no significant difference against Zerg but armor + SCVs repairing give you an army that is literally impossible to take down with less than two waves of units. To counter NP on my thors, the 0/3 upgrades allow my thors to tank the friendly fire damage better while also taking less because there are no attack upgrades. Voila! I've had very high success rates with high economy midgames against Zerg Don't be afraid to double expand!
Edit: Also a small note against Brood Lords....typically this would be the hard counter to this build because there is no Starport tech. However, Griffith himself made a guide on Hellion/Thor vs Brood Lord that I have used substantially to completely shut down Brood Lords with zero problems.
On June 09 2011 12:03 Crugio wrote: @Synystyr: I like the note on Hellion/Thor mix. Qu: How does that combo deal with say an equal value of Ultras. i.e. the late game BL/Ultra switch.
Ultras beat Thors with ~10 hp left over. Add in some marauders and problem solved. Mass roaches may be more of a problem before you get a critical amount of thors (but if you pull SCVs you can fend it off fairly well).
On June 09 2011 02:47 Synystyr wrote: I've tweaked this build to my own tastes in TvZ. On big macro maps (Tal'darim, Shakuras and Shattered), I go for a double expand off 2 barracks and float the first CC off with 5 SCVS loaded up to a nearby third and exploit the benefits. With a 3 bunker wall and a hidden third, it looks like I am turtling off two bases against the Zerg while in reality I'm way ahead in economy.
Even if this third gets discovered, I will have already mined enough to pay for it and have gained some benefit for it. This allows me to get a really, really powerful army quickly and do a fast 200/200 push. My composition of choice is Hellion/Thor with 0/3 upgrades and Marine or Marauder support depending if Zerg went Roach or Muta.
0/3 mech upgrades is how I deal with Infestors. Attack upgrades make no significant difference against Zerg but armor + SCVs repairing give you an army that is literally impossible to take down with less than two waves of units. To counter NP on my thors, the 0/3 upgrades allow my thors to tank the friendly fire damage better while also taking less because there are no attack upgrades. Voila! I've had very high success rates with high economy midgames against Zerg Don't be afraid to double expand!
Edit: Also a small note against Brood Lords....typically this would be the hard counter to this build because there is no Starport tech. However, Griffith himself made a guide on Hellion/Thor vs Brood Lord that I have used substantially to completely shut down Brood Lords with zero problems.
On June 09 2011 02:47 Synystyr wrote: I've tweaked this build to my own tastes in TvZ. On big macro maps (Tal'darim, Shakuras and Shattered), I go for a double expand off 2 barracks and float the first CC off with 5 SCVS loaded up to a nearby third and exploit the benefits. With a 3 bunker wall and a hidden third, it looks like I am turtling off two bases against the Zerg while in reality I'm way ahead in economy.
Even if this third gets discovered, I will have already mined enough to pay for it and have gained some benefit for it. This allows me to get a really, really powerful army quickly and do a fast 200/200 push. My composition of choice is Hellion/Thor with 0/3 upgrades and Marine or Marauder support depending if Zerg went Roach or Muta.
0/3 mech upgrades is how I deal with Infestors. Attack upgrades make no significant difference against Zerg but armor + SCVs repairing give you an army that is literally impossible to take down with less than two waves of units. To counter NP on my thors, the 0/3 upgrades allow my thors to tank the friendly fire damage better while also taking less because there are no attack upgrades. Voila! I've had very high success rates with high economy midgames against Zerg Don't be afraid to double expand!
Edit: Also a small note against Brood Lords....typically this would be the hard counter to this build because there is no Starport tech. However, Griffith himself made a guide on Hellion/Thor vs Brood Lord that I have used substantially to completely shut down Brood Lords with zero problems.
Your 200/200 push is an all in. If the zerg hold it you lost. roachs /infestors with good upgrades totally destroy Thors/helion.
Tbh in the same way, most/all mech plays are "allin", since you can never loose a battle. In general when you have 200/200, I feel it's just way to far into the game to call something allin(or cheese).
as a zerg player it is builds like this I fear the most.. Seeing a 2rax puts zergs in panic-mode...desperately clawing to get the proper defense in time; followed up by 3 ccs is a great idea! Depending on the map I may suggest trying to take a hidden expo to drop all the mules ( after you've set up infrastructure... I imagine that your $ will be extremely high... Tal'Darim Altar/Slag Pits ) also I think double engi bay is a must with this build...as I think the focus of the build is towards the mid-late.
On June 09 2011 02:47 Synystyr wrote: I've tweaked this build to my own tastes in TvZ. On big macro maps (Tal'darim, Shakuras and Shattered), I go for a double expand off 2 barracks and float the first CC off with 5 SCVS loaded up to a nearby third and exploit the benefits. With a 3 bunker wall and a hidden third, it looks like I am turtling off two bases against the Zerg while in reality I'm way ahead in economy.
Even if this third gets discovered, I will have already mined enough to pay for it and have gained some benefit for it. This allows me to get a really, really powerful army quickly and do a fast 200/200 push. My composition of choice is Hellion/Thor with 0/3 upgrades and Marine or Marauder support depending if Zerg went Roach or Muta.
0/3 mech upgrades is how I deal with Infestors. Attack upgrades make no significant difference against Zerg but armor + SCVs repairing give you an army that is literally impossible to take down with less than two waves of units. To counter NP on my thors, the 0/3 upgrades allow my thors to tank the friendly fire damage better while also taking less because there are no attack upgrades. Voila! I've had very high success rates with high economy midgames against Zerg Don't be afraid to double expand!
Edit: Also a small note against Brood Lords....typically this would be the hard counter to this build because there is no Starport tech. However, Griffith himself made a guide on Hellion/Thor vs Brood Lord that I have used substantially to completely shut down Brood Lords with zero problems.
Your 200/200 push is an all in. If the zerg hold it you lost. roachs /infestors with good upgrades totally destroy Thors/helion.
Tbh in the same way, most/all mech plays are "allin", since you can never loose a battle. In general when you have 200/200, I feel it's just way to far into the game to call something allin(or cheese).
It's not an all-in but if you lose your army it will take too long to reproduce so you will get boned. I agree that calling something an all-in at 200/200 doesn't make sense though.
On June 09 2011 12:03 Crugio wrote: @Synystyr: I like the note on Hellion/Thor mix. Qu: How does that combo deal with say an equal value of Ultras. i.e. the late game BL/Ultra switch.
I've only come across Ultras twice...honestly can't say I have enough experience on the matter, but I think with Marauder support, 0/3 upgrades and SCVs repairing, you should be able to trade evenly. The BL/Ultra switch does not affect me because I never get Vikings.
On June 09 2011 02:47 Synystyr wrote: I've tweaked this build to my own tastes in TvZ. On big macro maps (Tal'darim, Shakuras and Shattered), I go for a double expand off 2 barracks and float the first CC off with 5 SCVS loaded up to a nearby third and exploit the benefits. With a 3 bunker wall and a hidden third, it looks like I am turtling off two bases against the Zerg while in reality I'm way ahead in economy.
Even if this third gets discovered, I will have already mined enough to pay for it and have gained some benefit for it. This allows me to get a really, really powerful army quickly and do a fast 200/200 push. My composition of choice is Hellion/Thor with 0/3 upgrades and Marine or Marauder support depending if Zerg went Roach or Muta.
0/3 mech upgrades is how I deal with Infestors. Attack upgrades make no significant difference against Zerg but armor + SCVs repairing give you an army that is literally impossible to take down with less than two waves of units. To counter NP on my thors, the 0/3 upgrades allow my thors to tank the friendly fire damage better while also taking less because there are no attack upgrades. Voila! I've had very high success rates with high economy midgames against Zerg Don't be afraid to double expand!
Edit: Also a small note against Brood Lords....typically this would be the hard counter to this build because there is no Starport tech. However, Griffith himself made a guide on Hellion/Thor vs Brood Lord that I have used substantially to completely shut down Brood Lords with zero problems.
Your 200/200 push is an all in. If the zerg hold it you lost. roachs /infestors with good upgrades totally destroy Thors/helion.
I'll be on 3 bases taking a fourth as I attack. I should at least be able to trade armies decently as this 200/200 composition is one of the best against mid-game Zergs. I disagree that this is all-in.
I don't want to completely hijack Griffith's thread, so I'll spend my time today creating a guide. Expect one within the near future
I know I know its been half a year past from last message. And probably most of people angry at me because of raising this old tactic too. But there is a local tournament next week and I'm a top diamond Terran player and going to face master zergs. I need some unknown or forgotten builds. 5Rax reaper is forgotten but it has no use now. I have ThorZain's 15-22 gas marine drop play but thats only 1. (My other matchups are fine. At least decent. My team has too many Terran and Protoss players and I can practice exremely. So I really really need help against Z.)
Anyway.Reactor-Hellion expand is the most use in TvZ matchup and almost all Zerg have a tendency to drone as much as they can. With this build I think I can outmacro them till 13-15 min. Probably kill my enemy with huge 200/200 attack. Before my enemy reach t3. Even he can reach t3, 4OC would help me with great mule count. Especially maps like Antiga, Shakuras (pocket exp), Terminus (there will be no destructible rocks version), maybe korhal.
So my point is, I can keep my 4OC hidden, can this old build viable for my TvZ matchup? Sorry again.
On February 24 2012 20:21 iaguz wrote: It's outdated. Can't hold roach/bane all ins, and it's sub optimal in a lot of ways.
If you want some strong greedy TvZ builds, study Gumiho vs DRG's builds, particularly games 1 and 3.
I am sure it has weaknesses....but I don't think roach all-ins are one of them. A ton of marine/bunker w/ repair can hold roaches all day. But you need to have the bunkers up - pure marine gets roflstomped by roach-ling all-ins.
Weirdly enough, despite what it says in the OP, multi-CC builds vs protoss are making appearences now...you can hold anything but 3 Immortal push with it.
On February 24 2012 20:21 iaguz wrote: It's outdated. Can't hold roach/bane all ins, and it's sub optimal in a lot of ways.
If you want some strong greedy TvZ builds, study Gumiho vs DRG's builds, particularly games 1 and 3.
I am sure it has weaknesses....but I don't think roach all-ins are one of them. A ton of marine/bunker w/ repair can hold roaches all day. But you need to have the bunkers up - pure marine gets roflstomped by roach-ling all-ins.
Weirdly enough, despite what it says in the OP, multi-CC builds vs protoss are making appearences now...you can hold anything but 3 Immortal push with it.
Hey didnt say roach ling, hey said roach bane (with ling support). And he is right (say DRG vs GUMIHO on metropolis yesterday). Even a quick 3rd OC if scouted can get you badly hurt.
I have to agree with the above posts, don't use this build. A zerg masters+ typically will sack an overlord to see your main. Once they see the 4 OC they can either all-in you (you certainly will die provided they don't screw up), or they can take 3, 4 or 5 bases of their own without any fear.
Well if anyone saw taeja's stream last night (or was it the night before?) he used a 4cc build a lot, if not every game i saw vz. It was stupid greedy, gasless 1 rax expand into +2 more cc, but it has a sick midgame (obviously). It was kind of as expected; he lost the games were zerg went for some sort of aggression, and won the ones he got away with.
I think it requires a bit of tinkering if you want to use it. It's a bit gimmicky but if you can get away with it you're set; basically on a massive set of infrastructure and you can just throw units at zerg for the rest of the game.
I would recommend 2 things; 1) that you have a plan to get scouted at some point before all the orbitals are functioning, and 2) that you get gas and tanks with seige up as fast as you can for defense against roachs or banes.
On February 24 2012 20:21 iaguz wrote: It's outdated. Can't hold roach/bane all ins, and it's sub optimal in a lot of ways.
If you want some strong greedy TvZ builds, study Gumiho vs DRG's builds, particularly games 1 and 3.
I am sure it has weaknesses....but I don't think roach all-ins are one of them. A ton of marine/bunker w/ repair can hold roaches all day. But you need to have the bunkers up - pure marine gets roflstomped by roach-ling all-ins.
Weirdly enough, despite what it says in the OP, multi-CC builds vs protoss are making appearences now...you can hold anything but 3 Immortal push with it.
What.
I have held plenty of 3gate robo's with my triple orbital build. The immortal pushes just hit too late, and the 3 orbitals means I can sacrifice 20+ SCV's so long as I hold.
I don-t know about 4OC, but I copied Kas' 3OC against Zerg and against Toss. It works very well. Don't be shy on bunkers if you don't have godlike micro. Kas' plays it out quite risky without bunkers againt zerg.
Download the IEM KIEV and IEM Championship files. In Kiev Kas won bronze (Humiliating Idra with his 3OC) in the Championship he dropped out early but his play against Darkforce (I think) shows the build perfectly.
You get a ton of massively upgraded stuff and you hit before 15 minutes. Ofc its a macro build so early all ins are a problem (and will always be - it's part of the game) but you CAN hold...
EPT
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