EPTNOTE - Based on most of the responses I don't think people got many of the reasons this is so good. So I've simplified the shit out of it and focused on what I think the long term less gimmicky use of this is. For those curious about the original numbers that lead me to this post - see spoiler at end.
Why is the OC special?
In the past, there were only three ways to generate income.
![[image loading]](http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/619/workersx.jpg)
SC2 has given us a fourth income generating unit. It is the only one of its kind.
![[image loading]](http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3017/80537097.jpg)
The MULE itself might be the little thingie that carries minerals around, but the thing thats actually special is not the MULE, its the OC itself. The reason? Oversaturation and the fact that the MULEs themselves are renewable for no mineral cost after your initial 550 investment (in other words, the MULEs themselves are disposable).
Every Orbital Command you build should provide you will a income of ~180/m per minute every minute. It does not matter how many workers are harvesting and it does not matter where you build or position that OC. It can still generate this income as long as you have a base, any base, anywhere, within walking distance of a mineral patch. It does not matter if a hellion fried a mule 5 minutes ago, it does not matter if you have 0 minerals and have nothing but a single OC. Every 90s an OC will bank 50 energy you can use to place a mule anywhere on the map. It doesn't even matter if you forgot to get your minerals for a few minutes - the OC will bank 4 income boosts if you forgot about it for a while, or if you just want to give yourself a sudden burst of 540/m per minute over the next 90 seconds.
Do not think of an OC as you would anything else in SC, it is fundimentally different. The OC is itself an income generating structure. Every 90 seconds an OC will generate you a little mechanical income boost (regardless of where it is or how many workers you have). Note: because OCs generate 50 energy at ~85 seconds there is a period of overlap between two mules, although I constantly cite OC income at ~180/min its closer to ~200 - OC income is higher than MULE income.
OCs are really good.
Can 4 OCs alone be better than a saturated expansion?
Yes. 4OCs will generate an income equal to a saturated expansion but there is more to it. Let's compare the options for generating 800/m/minute (worker costs are food adjusted @12.5 - no adjustment was applied for supply value of base).
~800/m/minute
![[image loading]](http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2438/probesequal.jpg)
This costs 1900 minerals / 24 supply
~800/m/minute
![[image loading]](http://img819.imageshack.us/img819/4031/dronesequal.jpg)
This costs 1800 minerals / 24 supply
~800/m/minute
![[image loading]](http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2456/mulesequal.jpg)
This costs 550 minerals / 0 supply
Admittedly, this is a favorable oversimplification depending on your perspective, to get those 4 mules working constantly you need 4 OCs. With a bit of a discount considering you start with one CC, getting 3 addl OCs will cost you 1390 (food adjusted cost @12.5 per food not including first CC in food discount or build cost). That doesn't seem that great, sure you save a 400-500 minerals - but not game breaking.
The difference is in exposure and vulnerability. Look at those three bases and the costs under them. Thats how many minerals you're risking on your expansion. The real cost of an expansion is not the 3-400 minerals to build the base, the real cost is in the 1500 minerals to build the workers and the eight minutes it takes to replace them if they die.
Because an OC/MULE only expansion is nearly risk free compared to other bases and they fly you can take risks with them that you never would have dreamed of with a real expansion. The reality is, if a big threat drops and stims on your door and kills all your mules, it sucks, it hurts, and yeah, it might lose you a game. But often, you can just lift the thing, stick it somewhere else, call more mules and be just fine.
OC Farming is superior to a normal expansion since it carries less Risk. That means you can be more aggressive about 'expanding' to vulnerable areas - including gold expos or corner locations.
How does this fit into Supply Depots?
Every time you build a supply depot, you spend 100 minerals. Once built, those minerals are lost forever. They're just a burden and they die easy. A OC provides you with 137 minerals worth of supply, has a ton of hitpoints and unlike a supply depot will pay for itself in 3:20.
In an ideal world, you should absolutely never build a supply depot.
The reality is that you will have to build at least a couple supply depots in order to live long enough for an OC to pay for itself (I got a little over excited with my first post ;D). That said, every time you build a depot, you should be aware of the fact that those minerals could have been better spent on more OCs. That in the long run those OCs will catapult you ahead of your opponent.
Keep that in mind with every supply depot you make. Each one is a delay in OC Farming, the long term benefit in opting for OCs over Depots (where feasible) is very real.
How effective can OC Farming be?
Because your OC Farm can be very defensively positioned (you can actually use the OCs to wall off), OC Farming allows you the additional income of an expansion without the additional vulnerability. Because OCs can fly - they also give you tremendous flexibility in repositioning your current MULE fest.
There's a tremendous amount of flexibility in how this can be used. I think that it should be strong incentive to take a natural early and I predict terran FE may become really popular. With it, you should be able to produce the income of three or four bases much faster and much safer than any other race. Your MULE income off of the main and FE alone will be half of a third, and that should be a big appeal.
Some people may try to use a 4-8 OC mega push and play mass macro style. Frankly, I think this could be viable mid or late game. Sure you will lose at cost, but you can realistically double your opponents income so just throw 60 marines at him every minute, most will die, but your income will replace losses faster, and because you can reposition your expos at will with low risk you can mine shit out with less concern.
Or you could just play fairly standard and is drop a couple extra OCs if it looks like the game will go past 10 minutes. You should start to dramatically pull ahead in income compared to any other race with considerably less supply used in workers and with dramatically risk.
As this develops, I'll add more edits with notes, builds, replays, etc.
Some Replays and comments about games posted around page 18...
+ Show Spoiler +
Showing what IMO is the beginning of a more mature use of this technique.
On December 05 2010 02:42 Bixs wrote:
Here is one replay on my main account aganist a 2300+ zerg (i am also 2300+)
TvZ - fake 2 rax pressure -> into 3 OC -> into pressure build:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112391-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
Here is one replay on my main account aganist a 2300+ zerg (i am also 2300+)
TvZ - fake 2 rax pressure -> into 3 OC -> into pressure build:
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112391-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war
More links on some high diamond replays...
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112393-1v1-terran-zerg-jungle-basin
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112417-1v1-terran-zerg-jungle-basin
Some early testing...
On December 04 2010 12:20 Akuemon wrote:
Here's some examples of this in action. Not the best replays but meh. Our whole clan thinks its overlpowered.
1v1 TvP example, not great play from both players but its something.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112217-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
1v1 TvZ a better replay, the zerg(me) could have gotten better tech units rather tahn mutas. probably infestors. shows how fast a terran can produce and waves of waves of attacks. I could've micro'd better as well.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112219-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Please note that we knew what the terran was doing, and try'd things to stop it.
We did not have any rules just the Z or P trying to stop it.
Here's some examples of this in action. Not the best replays but meh. Our whole clan thinks its overlpowered.
1v1 TvP example, not great play from both players but its something.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112217-1v1-terran-protoss-metalopolis
1v1 TvZ a better replay, the zerg(me) could have gotten better tech units rather tahn mutas. probably infestors. shows how fast a terran can produce and waves of waves of attacks. I could've micro'd better as well.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112219-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
Please note that we knew what the terran was doing, and try'd things to stop it.
We did not have any rules just the Z or P trying to stop it.
On December 04 2010 10:50 Bixs wrote:
Here are some replays:
TvZ - Zerg counter attacks big time with roaches and banelings.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112193-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
TvZ - constant marine pressure against muta/bling/ling
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112194-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station
Here are some replays:
TvZ - Zerg counter attacks big time with roaches and banelings.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112193-1v1-terran-zerg-lost-temple
TvZ - constant marine pressure against muta/bling/ling
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112194-1v1-terran-zerg-scrap-station
Toss killing mass orbital:
On December 04 2010 20:17 Dsn4001 wrote:
Played against someone going mass orbital commands. You'd notice that even though I was always ahead in workers by at least 8. His income is always higher than mine except at the end game.
Problem was the map really, jungle basin is not best map for this since expansion besides the natural are limited.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-171233.jpg)
Played against someone going mass orbital commands. You'd notice that even though I was always ahead in workers by at least 8. His income is always higher than mine except at the end game.
Problem was the map really, jungle basin is not best map for this since expansion besides the natural are limited.
If you have replays - feel free to PM me and I will include them, win or lose, top diamond or low bronze.
gongryong has put together a little FAQ - his comments mostly revolve around helping to clarify the first version of this post - which was much more extreme and focused on a more committed early OC all in - but I thought his points were still good. If he (or anyone else) wants to update or contribute to this, please feel free to PM.
FAQ
1. Please summarize what is this strategy/build all about?
+ Show Spoiler +
(Over the duration of this thread, this strategy has evolve a bit thanks to those willing to
spend time and energy to try it out and prove/disprove it.) At this point, this build is about
going standard early game as you see fit, and after that switching to mass OC for supply
and mules and inevst in a mule heavy economy to support your army. With mass mules,
you can sacrifice some of your scvs in order to get to an army heavy max 200/200
(some say 180/20) scenario
2. Do you mean i DO NOT have to build depots AT ALL?
+ Show Spoiler +
The idea of this strategy is to reduce dependence on depots as food supply and instead
get it from OCs, especially mid-late game.
get it from OCs, especially mid-late game.
3. So you just build the initial depot and spam OC all the way?
+ Show Spoiler +
That was one of the initial ideas. But early tests indicate that you need standard depot
build early game for the following reasons:
- at 400m and longer build time, OCs are not optimal early game
- you need early game depots to support first batch of scvs and early army
By midgame, or once you have a stable economy and decent army, you can SWITCH to this
"build" by forgetting about depots and spamming OCs for mules (see details above for the
figures on mule-heavy economy).
build early game for the following reasons:
- at 400m and longer build time, OCs are not optimal early game
- you need early game depots to support first batch of scvs and early army
By midgame, or once you have a stable economy and decent army, you can SWITCH to this
"build" by forgetting about depots and spamming OCs for mules (see details above for the
figures on mule-heavy economy).
4. What about scvs?
+ Show Spoiler +
You will still need scvs particularly early game (per standard) until it is safe to switch to
mule-based economy. At this point, you will need less scvs, mainly for gas harvest, repair,
and building. Reducing scvs is an essential part of this strategy since it will give you a
bigger percentage of army in a 200/200 max out scenario vs others.
5. What are the weaknesses of this strategy?
+ Show Spoiler +
If you proceed with your game rushing to this strategy, you will clearly have to skimp on
early army. An opponent who scouts this might react to this aggressively with early
pressure or might all-in against you. this could be a major problem. Or, you could simply
go standard early to mid game, 2 basing preferably, and switch to this strategy,
then you could see the potential of this strategy. Moreover, some point that mules only
address the mineral aspect of your economy, what about the gas? I see this a general
economy issue and not particular to this strategy - meaning mule or not, terran or any other
race, one has to always mind gas harvesting. you will have to save some scvs for gas
mining.
6. Do you have replays to prove it?
+ Show Spoiler +
At this point, this strategy belongs to everyone, including you. If you think this is impossible,
you are welcome ignore this. But IF you argue against it, please be kind enough to post a
rational argument and not just a blanket denial. Otherwise, try it out yourself, experiment
with it, mix it up, do anything to prove by your account if this build is viable or not. By then,
you can post any argument you want with the benefit of personal experience.
Original post for those curious as to how this got started...
+ Show Spoiler +
The goal of this thread is honestly, to come up with a game breaking technique for terran by maxing out abuse of mules. How does this end supply depots? We'll get to this soon.
I'll be stating a lot of stuff, backed up by with rough math. But I admit this is all theory craft at this point. I'll be refining this as we go - but I wanted to share my conclusions. If anyone is interested in helping me figure out how to absolutely abuse the ideas that follow - please contribute.
Background Information
After running some numbers on mules in this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7156269
I came away pretty shocked at how incredibly broken mules are. I broke out excel and ran some calculations. The key point is I came away with is that once built, it takes around 3:20 for terran to pay for an orbital command plus 10 scvs (if people are curious I can share the xls).
The other key number is 4 orbital commands. That's the number of orbital commands required to call down enough mules to mine ~800 minerals per minute (the same as a fully saturated base).
Mules
Mules are incredible. So incredible that I think they may legitimately break the game if used to their fullest potential. An orbital command can put down a mule every ~85 seconds. A mule lasts 90 seconds and mines 180 minerals per minute. For comparison, 3 scvs mining a mineral patch will produce ~100 minerals per minute (about 40/35/25 if mining the same patch according to my tests). So in one sense a mule comes pretty close to being worth 5-6 scvs. A great ability that you can constantly use.
But the part where mules become broken is their ability to oversaturate a mineral patch. Every base in SC2 has 8 patches. In order to get 6 SCVs to mine 200 minerals a second, it takes up 2 mineral patches. A fully saturated base will mine 800 minerals per minute and require 24 scvs.
Mules on the other hand can mine 180 minerals a second regardless of how many other workers are there. With 24 scvs and 4 mules mining at a single base you should be able to mine roughly 1520 minerals a second. That's the same as two fully saturated expansions.
So 4 mules is roughly equal to a fully saturated base...so what?
4 Mules are much better than a fully saturated expansion.
In order to put together a fully saturated base, it costs money. You need to build the command center, and you need to build 24 workers, those 24 workers need to eat - so you also gotta build supply depots.
The true cost of an SCV is 50 minerals plus 1 supply (using a supply depot, a supply is worth 12.5 minerals) - so an SCV is costs 62.5 minerals. 24 of these will cost you 1500 minerals + 400 for the command center.
So it costs 1900 minerals to build and fully saturate an expansion - the CC itself is only ~25% of the total cost - the vast majority is in the workers and supply.
Why does this matter? 1900 minerals is a lot. It costs you that much to take a natural and fully saturate - this is why FE is pretty risky. Taking a quick third and fully saturating both bases will cost you 3800 minerals. Thats a metric shit ton. In this game, its generally not economically feasible to saturate a third base before your main is nearly mined out because of the cost in workers. Additionally, because workers take up supply, building 90 workers to fully saturate 3 bases will leave you with a paper army compared to someone 2 basing. Chances are pretty good, you won't hold that third (we see this happen time and again with zergs who take a third as a response to a FE - they simply do not have enough money to saturate and build any remote defense).
So most of the time, we all have to be content with a max income of around 1500 minerals per minute (2 fully saturated bases). It's almost impossible to exceed this (aside from golds, which we'll ignore for a bit).
Mules break all those rules
So here is where we finally get to the interesting shit. Mules are the only unit in SC that can completely break the above. A terran player capable of rolling out 4 mules on 2 fully saturated bases will mine ~2200 minerals per minute. This is realistically more than any other race can do. If you get really ambitious, a terran player capable of rolling out 8 mules on two bases will mine ~3000 minerals per minute. Thats equal to 4 fully saturated bases. With an income that high, you should be able to produce a marine every second.
But it's not possible to get a steady stream of 8 mules!
Well. Not if you play conventionally but I think that in order to play terran to its maximum potential, you should not play remotely like any other race, nor should you play as the designers intended, because AS TERRAN YOU SHOULD WORK HARD TO NEVER BUILD A SUPPLY DEPOT.
Well. Ok. You need that first one to get a barraks. But lets ignore that first depot. Let me say it again...
AS TERRAN YOU WORK HARD TO NEVER BUILD A SUPPLY DEPOT.
Command centers are always economically better for supply. Why? Because supply depots suck. They're just lost minerals AND they get killed easy leaving you supply blocked. If you can possibly arrange a way to afford it, you should ALWAYS BUILD COMMAND CENTERS FOR FOOD. Why? Because in ADDITION TO BUILDING WORKERS FASTER, THEY GIVE YOU MULES AND ALLOW YOU TO OVERSATURATE.
A command center gives you 11 food, this is worth 137 minerals in supply (depot gives 8 @ 100 minerals). The actual cost of a command center is really 263 minerals, the orbital is another 150. Using ONLY MULES the orbital command will pay for itself in about 3:20 (550 minerals) - a single mule will pay for the command center using its food adjusted cost in 90 seconds. After this, unlike a supply depot the orbital command will begin to improve your income. Dramatically. If you can get 2 orbital commands, the mules alone will entirely pay for a constant stream of additional orbital commands. What does this mean? Well. It means that you could have 8 orbital commands in around 9 minutes, and an income of 3,000 minerals per minute (equivilant to 4 fully saturated bases).
Obviously, it won't always be possible to avoid building depots.But the point is that this is something you should try very hard to avoid. A supply depot does not improve your income. Orbital commands do. Two will completely pay for a third in mule income alone, 3 will give you 540 minerals / minute, allowing you to continue pumping out additional CCs in mass (paid for by mules alone).
So let me just review. Using your main, and your natural, you can have an income equvalent to 4 fully saturated bases. This mechanic is absolutely unparalleled by anything the other two races have -- and we haven't even started looking into planetary fortresses as incredibly cost effective defense yet.
Theorycraft
I admit completely that this thread is theorycrafting at its best. But I wanted to put this post up so that I could eventually take credit for the inevitable nerf on Mules
. I'll be adding builds, replays as I have time.
In the mean time, please feel free to add suggestions, think it out, try builds. The best I did was a 14 CC 15 rax with my 4th orbital at ~ 6 minutes. I walled off the natural with CCs and 2 bunkers. I had an income of 2200-2400 at 9 minutes. I'm sure this is viable.
EDIT:
Griffith has posted a build with high diamond replays showing that this is viable.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173703
The revolution has begun :D
I'll be stating a lot of stuff, backed up by with rough math. But I admit this is all theory craft at this point. I'll be refining this as we go - but I wanted to share my conclusions. If anyone is interested in helping me figure out how to absolutely abuse the ideas that follow - please contribute.
Background Information
After running some numbers on mules in this thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=7156269
I came away pretty shocked at how incredibly broken mules are. I broke out excel and ran some calculations. The key point is I came away with is that once built, it takes around 3:20 for terran to pay for an orbital command plus 10 scvs (if people are curious I can share the xls).
The other key number is 4 orbital commands. That's the number of orbital commands required to call down enough mules to mine ~800 minerals per minute (the same as a fully saturated base).
Mules
Mules are incredible. So incredible that I think they may legitimately break the game if used to their fullest potential. An orbital command can put down a mule every ~85 seconds. A mule lasts 90 seconds and mines 180 minerals per minute. For comparison, 3 scvs mining a mineral patch will produce ~100 minerals per minute (about 40/35/25 if mining the same patch according to my tests). So in one sense a mule comes pretty close to being worth 5-6 scvs. A great ability that you can constantly use.
But the part where mules become broken is their ability to oversaturate a mineral patch. Every base in SC2 has 8 patches. In order to get 6 SCVs to mine 200 minerals a second, it takes up 2 mineral patches. A fully saturated base will mine 800 minerals per minute and require 24 scvs.
Mules on the other hand can mine 180 minerals a second regardless of how many other workers are there. With 24 scvs and 4 mules mining at a single base you should be able to mine roughly 1520 minerals a second. That's the same as two fully saturated expansions.
So 4 mules is roughly equal to a fully saturated base...so what?
4 Mules are much better than a fully saturated expansion.
In order to put together a fully saturated base, it costs money. You need to build the command center, and you need to build 24 workers, those 24 workers need to eat - so you also gotta build supply depots.
The true cost of an SCV is 50 minerals plus 1 supply (using a supply depot, a supply is worth 12.5 minerals) - so an SCV is costs 62.5 minerals. 24 of these will cost you 1500 minerals + 400 for the command center.
So it costs 1900 minerals to build and fully saturate an expansion - the CC itself is only ~25% of the total cost - the vast majority is in the workers and supply.
Why does this matter? 1900 minerals is a lot. It costs you that much to take a natural and fully saturate - this is why FE is pretty risky. Taking a quick third and fully saturating both bases will cost you 3800 minerals. Thats a metric shit ton. In this game, its generally not economically feasible to saturate a third base before your main is nearly mined out because of the cost in workers. Additionally, because workers take up supply, building 90 workers to fully saturate 3 bases will leave you with a paper army compared to someone 2 basing. Chances are pretty good, you won't hold that third (we see this happen time and again with zergs who take a third as a response to a FE - they simply do not have enough money to saturate and build any remote defense).
So most of the time, we all have to be content with a max income of around 1500 minerals per minute (2 fully saturated bases). It's almost impossible to exceed this (aside from golds, which we'll ignore for a bit).
Mules break all those rules
So here is where we finally get to the interesting shit. Mules are the only unit in SC that can completely break the above. A terran player capable of rolling out 4 mules on 2 fully saturated bases will mine ~2200 minerals per minute. This is realistically more than any other race can do. If you get really ambitious, a terran player capable of rolling out 8 mules on two bases will mine ~3000 minerals per minute. Thats equal to 4 fully saturated bases. With an income that high, you should be able to produce a marine every second.
But it's not possible to get a steady stream of 8 mules!
Well. Not if you play conventionally but I think that in order to play terran to its maximum potential, you should not play remotely like any other race, nor should you play as the designers intended, because AS TERRAN YOU SHOULD WORK HARD TO NEVER BUILD A SUPPLY DEPOT.
Well. Ok. You need that first one to get a barraks. But lets ignore that first depot. Let me say it again...
AS TERRAN YOU WORK HARD TO NEVER BUILD A SUPPLY DEPOT.
Command centers are always economically better for supply. Why? Because supply depots suck. They're just lost minerals AND they get killed easy leaving you supply blocked. If you can possibly arrange a way to afford it, you should ALWAYS BUILD COMMAND CENTERS FOR FOOD. Why? Because in ADDITION TO BUILDING WORKERS FASTER, THEY GIVE YOU MULES AND ALLOW YOU TO OVERSATURATE.
A command center gives you 11 food, this is worth 137 minerals in supply (depot gives 8 @ 100 minerals). The actual cost of a command center is really 263 minerals, the orbital is another 150. Using ONLY MULES the orbital command will pay for itself in about 3:20 (550 minerals) - a single mule will pay for the command center using its food adjusted cost in 90 seconds. After this, unlike a supply depot the orbital command will begin to improve your income. Dramatically. If you can get 2 orbital commands, the mules alone will entirely pay for a constant stream of additional orbital commands. What does this mean? Well. It means that you could have 8 orbital commands in around 9 minutes, and an income of 3,000 minerals per minute (equivilant to 4 fully saturated bases).
Obviously, it won't always be possible to avoid building depots.But the point is that this is something you should try very hard to avoid. A supply depot does not improve your income. Orbital commands do. Two will completely pay for a third in mule income alone, 3 will give you 540 minerals / minute, allowing you to continue pumping out additional CCs in mass (paid for by mules alone).
So let me just review. Using your main, and your natural, you can have an income equvalent to 4 fully saturated bases. This mechanic is absolutely unparalleled by anything the other two races have -- and we haven't even started looking into planetary fortresses as incredibly cost effective defense yet.
Theorycraft
I admit completely that this thread is theorycrafting at its best. But I wanted to put this post up so that I could eventually take credit for the inevitable nerf on Mules
. I'll be adding builds, replays as I have time.In the mean time, please feel free to add suggestions, think it out, try builds. The best I did was a 14 CC 15 rax with my 4th orbital at ~ 6 minutes. I walled off the natural with CCs and 2 bunkers. I had an income of 2200-2400 at 9 minutes. I'm sure this is viable.
EDIT:
Griffith has posted a build with high diamond replays showing that this is viable.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173703
The revolution has begun :D
EDIT 2:
12/2/10
- I want to claim the phrase "Farming OCs" as this is essentially what this is all about.
