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On December 05 2010 23:03 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Don't let the negative viewpoints get to you, the updating you've done to it is beautiful, and its a masterwork of theory crafting that i'd love to see become standard and possibly even result in a mule nerf
Thanks! Nice to hear positive feedback, especially after all the work in rewriting the top post.
On December 05 2010 23:03 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
Just a quick note: minerals tied up in mineral patches are worse than unspent minerals in the bank; why? because you 'have them' but you can't use them. Also, if you mine out a base faster and bank it, you can move on to the next one faster, the more minerals you mine, the less your opponent can potential usurp from you; After all, there are a limited amount of minerals shared between you and the enemy, the more you get, the less he gets, and the better off you are.
I would build said Super SCV any day.
That's true. Minerals tied in patches are much worse than minerals in the bank. The points you raise are all true. Another major point is that you need to defend minerals tied up in a patch, you don't have to defend minerals in the bank. That idea is really one of the key points in the whole value of OC Farming.
On December 06 2010 04:35 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
Killing a mule I'd say is always a bad decision in favour of killing an SCV. Killing a mule costs the opponent a bounded and fixed price, nothing more. An SCV will keep generating income for the remainder of the game if not killed, assuming here for sake of simplicity that you don't ever mine out the map.
This is actually a really interesting point. I might edit this into top. The decision between killing a mule or killing an SCV depends on the following:
The more workers you think you can kill at once, the more valuable killing SCVs is. The fewer workers you can kill at once, the more valuable killing mules is.
The reason comes down to the amount of time required to replace the workers. Let's imagine the 4 mules vs 24 workers scenario. Both have a similar income. But killing the 4 mules results in (like you said) a fixed mineral cost - exactly how much depends on how much energy they have left. Killing the workers is not really infinite (because of saturation) - the real value in killing SCVs depends on how long it takes to replace them. The more SCVs you can kill in a single burst, the longer it will take to replace that lost income.
Let's imagine you are on two base, and both are saturated. Someone kills a single SCV. It will take them 20 seconds to replace that SCV and return to full income. On the other hand, if someone kills 10 SCVs, it will take 200 seconds (divided by the number of cc's building) in order to replace all that income (plus the cost of the individual SCVs). That 200 seconds of lost income is huge.
There is a formula to determine the exact point where killing MULES is better than SCVs. But the rough rule of thumb is probably: if you can kill 1 or 2 workers, kill mules. If you think you can kill 4+ workers kill SCVs.
On December 06 2010 04:35 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:
However, I would like to point some thing out to the OP here if we're looking at that, a single mule mines as fast as 4.5 SCV's in an ideal case, an oribtal can continuously calldown mules as it happens to regen 50 energy every 90 seconds. So basically the cost / return ratio of an orbital is significantly lower than an SCV. The return is 4.5 times as high, but an orbital command costs 11 SCV's.
Of course, this is minus the supply depot so let's say 8.5 SCV"s, that's still a lot higher.
Another poibnt that comes into factor is that it has more hp than that many SCV's, and thus is less easily lost, and is less exposed in the field, and can oversaturate.
What you say here is half true. Building SCVs is always better than building OCs - IF - you are not close to saturation. The key idea being that oversaturation more so than raw mining income is the actual value of the OC.
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Timeline of this build:
0:00 Start buildings CC (400 minerals invested)
1:40 CC finished, start upgrading to OC (550 minerals invested)
2:15 OC finished, calldown first MULE
3:45 first MULE runs out of energy, calldown second (270 minerals gathered)
4:35 Start buildings second CC (950 minerals invested)
5:15 second MULE runs out of energy, calldown third (540 minerals gathered)
6:15 second CC finished, start upgrading to OC (1100 minerals invested)
6:45 third MULE runs out of energy, calldown fourth (810 minerals gathered)
6:50 second OC finished, calldown fifth MULE
7:40 Start buildings third CC (1500 minerals invested)
8:15 fourth MULE runs out of energy, calldown sixth
8:20 fifht MULE runs out of energy, calldown seventh (1350 minerals gathered)
8:50 Start buildings fourth CC (1900 minerals invested)
9:20 third CC finished, start upgrading to OC (2050 minerals invested)
9:45 third OC finished, calldown eighth MULE
9:45 sixth MULE runs out of energy, calldown nineth
9:50 seventh MULE runs out of energy, calldown tenth (1890 minerals gathered)
10:20 MULES gathered 2160 minerals! You get back initial investment!
Now profit!
10:30 fourth CC finished, start upgrading to OC (2100 minerals invested)
So with this build, after you invest initial 400 minerals, you get them back after 10 minutes and 20 seconds. After that you gain 4 MULES (640-720 minerals/min income) and 44 extra supply. Enjoy!
I really dont see this build viable at any level, its huge (8 marines) investment that pays for it in more than 10 minutes... After that you get some eco boost but 10 min is way too long.
Its kinda same theory like saying that Protoss whos not using Chrono boost for anything besides Probes can have around 67 Probes at the time when Terran has 50. And this Chrono Boost effect would result into 720 minerals income compareable or higher than what 4 MULEs give.
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This is crazy enough it just might work...
I feel like if you are doing this strategy, you should play standard for a while (about 10 minutes), before beginning to mass OC. If you start with the massing, you are left very vulnerable to a timing attack. It seems like it has great potential, and I would love to see a pro player use it.
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On December 06 2010 12:21 Sek-Kuar wrote:
Timeline of this build:
0:00 Start buildings CC (400 minerals invested)
1:40 CC finished, start upgrading to OC (550 minerals invested)
2:15 OC finished, calldown first MULE
3:45 first MULE runs out of energy, calldown second (270 minerals gathered)
4:35 Start buildings second CC (950 minerals invested)
5:15 second MULE runs out of energy, calldown third (540 minerals gathered)
6:15 second CC finished, start upgrading to OC (1100 minerals invested)
6:45 third MULE runs out of energy, calldown fourth (810 minerals gathered)
6:50 second OC finished, calldown fifth MULE
7:40 Start buildings third CC (1500 minerals invested)
8:15 fourth MULE runs out of energy, calldown sixth
8:20 fifht MULE runs out of energy, calldown seventh (1350 minerals gathered)
8:50 Start buildings fourth CC (1900 minerals invested)
9:20 third CC finished, start upgrading to OC (2050 minerals invested)
9:45 third OC finished, calldown eighth MULE
9:45 sixth MULE runs out of energy, calldown nineth
9:50 seventh MULE runs out of energy, calldown tenth (1890 minerals gathered)
10:20 MULES gathered 2160 minerals! You get back initial investment!
Now profit!
10:30 fourth CC finished, start upgrading to OC (2100 minerals invested)
So with this build, after you invest initial 400 minerals, you get them back after 10 minutes and 20 seconds. After that you gain 4 MULES (640-720 minerals/min income) and 44 extra supply. Enjoy!
I really dont see this build viable at any level, its huge (8 marines) investment that pays for it in more than 10 minutes... After that you get some eco boost but 10 min is way too long.
Its kinda same theory like saying that Protoss whos not using Chrono boost for anything besides Probes can have around 67 Probes at the time when Terran has 50. And this Chrono Boost effect would result into 720 minerals income compareable or higher than what 4 MULEs give.
Actually, you don't build a "4th" OC, you start out with one CC, so that's 400 Minerals less invested into this build, you only pay 150 for the OC Upgrade. Secondly, the 2nd OC is used for the Expansion fairly early so it pays for itself fairly quickly from saturating the Natural to alleviate diminishing returns resulting from SCV Oversaturation at the main. Then consider that each OC is worth 1.375 Supply depots or, a 137.5 Mineral savings on Depots... they pay for themselves a lot quicker than 10:20. Also, if you aren't so afraid of it being scouted, you can place one or both of your extra OC's in a slightly more efficient position for some mineral deposits to quicken your gathering of some mineral patches in your main or natural (You'll know this is the case if the SCV's decide to go to the extra OC rather than your main OC)... though this particular benefit is map dependent.
And who doesn't love watching a baneling bust on your first Supply Depot only for the zerg to find that a big ass OC is beyond that?
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Dude I love the idea but you still haven't updated your caption on the OP. Your entire argument is that you are getting 5 orbital commands to be able to constantly earn from 5 mules which equals 1 saturated expansion, but you say in the OP that a saturated expansion's worth of SCV's can be replaced by one orbital command that costs 550 minerals and 0 supply, and have a picture of 4 mules which is not quite enough. This is incorrect. You are getting 5 of them which costs 2550 minerals.
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Trump was trying this strat on this stream last night.
I haven't read the entire thread, so I don't know the intricacies, but he appeared to do ok with it.
Basically he opened 1-1-1 marine-tank-viking, then expand.
He'd build an additional OC in his main and natural.
He'd kind of play a normal game from their on out, but each time he'd take an expansion, he would build two OC's instead of one. Eventually, he'd get a third up so he was at 6 OCs. This is where things would get a little nuts and he'd start dropping like 4 CCs or 6 rax at a time. He lost several games, but I think every game he lost, he was floating 3k in some cases 4k minerals.
I think this strat could really work, its just figuring out the correct execution, which could be really tricky.
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I think it's an interesting strategy but not very feasible at the early stage of the game.
Because you are investing so much in CC/OC, you have very few units,if your opponent is as passive as you,he will take over the map with expansions as well, if he is aggresive you will get Jinrolled!!!
The more logical approach to me, would be to make 1 extra OC at your main after 2 barracks,then when you expand to your natural lift off and use it while building a 3rd OC in your base and so on,so you always have 1 OC ahead that can be used to immediatly MULE up the current or the next expansion.It will give you a good boost with a smaller risk of failure.
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So far 4/5 with this on the ladder, 2 wins being versus terran, one vs zerg, and one vs protoss.
Depending on the situation, I've made the the first CC quite early (under 20 supply).
If unscouted or not dealt with correctly, this seems quite powerful at this moment in the metagame, at least until their opponent realizes what's going on.
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Marine, scv, bunker rush followed by this mule abuse is rediculously strong 
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This works ridiclously well in multiplayer games (3v3, 4v4)
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On December 07 2010 09:49 Ekko wrote:
This works ridiclously well in multiplayer games (3v3, 4v4)
Okay... you have peaked my curiosity... you got a replay :-)
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This seems interesting in LATE GAME TvZ.
We all know how difficult it is to beat Z late game. Also, how common banelings will pull down any supply depots you had used to wall-in near start.
So, let's say your army is maxed late game vs max late game Z army. You send 1 bases SCVs into the enemies, possibly killing a few banelings. Then you have about ~20 supply more units onto the zerg if you have 4 extra OC's. Then let's say and zerg are one 3 bases. Send in 2 base worth of SCVs. That's ~40 extra food. If you have ~8 OCs late game.... thats 80 Food and 8 mules. You can have 2 bases minned with JUST Mules?
You will have 40 supply vers the zerg late game. I'm sure that you will beat the Z late game army. Even if he re-macros army before you can beat him, the extra fighting he has to do should be enough for you to also remacro.
This is all theory and based on extremely good play which I don't think any1 can pull of right now or maybe ever. However seeing OptimumsPrimes Play makes me believe it is possible.
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Whenever I watch Jinro play I feel like he is doing the funday monday where you have to expand every 4 minutes. He's like clockwork. My favorite Terran to watch. Not exactly what you are doing but similar. Nada should try this heh.
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Tried this today against a 1600 zerg (i'm 1k ish terran). Granted, the guy I was playing wasn't that great (looking at the replays) but the build is promising. Not used to a macro build on the terran, but I was able to pump out so many units in a short period of time with 6+ rax in 10 min mark.
The first 5 rines are pretty crucial. I was able to take out zerg's queen and a few drones. You think that building CC's early will make you not produce units... but I just kept pumping out of the 2 raxes until my 3rd OC finished and added on 4 more rax after.
I'll try experimenting more with this.
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wow proves mules are IMBA
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This build is damn good if the game stretches out to later game. Tried it on a few 4v4s today. Unless your team is retarded and gets taken out early, this build replenishes your army so fast that the enemy can't catch up. Also, this build alone made it possible for me to repel 2 or 3 pronged attacks as I was pumping units like no other.
Another advantage was the fact that you can expo much easier. once your main and/or expo runs out, I was able to simply float my OC anywhere and mine FAST. Mule mining gold was amazing.
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On December 06 2010 04:35 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 23:18 RRjr wrote:
While there is less risk attached to your expos per se, mules are pretty easy to kill. So basically, if your opponent realises what you're doing and starts sniping your mules constantly, you'll be at a huge disadvantage. Killing 4 mules is way easier and faster than killing an equivalent set of SCVs. No, this is a wrong idea, the point is that the mule was going to die on itself, and the SCV wasn't. Assuming that you for instance keep expanding and never over-saturate, one SCV will give you a set mineral income ad in-finitum. By killing that SCV you have permanently taken that away until the end off time, you don't 'replace' SCV's or probes, because you always produce them non-stop anyway. An SCV killed is an irreperairable loss, I mean, protoss can perhaps decide to chrono them then, but for terran, it is gone forever. Killing a mule I'd say is always a bad decision in favour of killing an SCV. Killing a mule costs the opponent a bounded and fixed price, nothing more. An SCV will keep generating income for the remainder of the game if not killed, assuming here for sake of simplicity that you don't ever mine out the map. ...
In a normal game, that may be true. But against somebody making lots of extra OCs, unless it's very early in the game, they are presumably not going to be producing SCVs out of ALL of their CCs non stop. When you have 5 or 6 CCs fairly early in the game, I have to imagine that you arn't going to have all of them churning out SCVs constantly, or you would end up with no supply for an army before long.
If you are going to have CCs not always producing, then the cost of a dead SCV really is 50 minerals plus the loss of mining before it was replaced. The whole "well you are still an SCV short because the new worker could have been "additional" rather than "replacement" doesn't apply if you have spare SCV production capacity.
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On December 08 2010 06:19 Chance55 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 04:35 Silmakuoppaanikinko wrote:On December 05 2010 23:18 RRjr wrote:
While there is less risk attached to your expos per se, mules are pretty easy to kill. So basically, if your opponent realises what you're doing and starts sniping your mules constantly, you'll be at a huge disadvantage. Killing 4 mules is way easier and faster than killing an equivalent set of SCVs. No, this is a wrong idea, the point is that the mule was going to die on itself, and the SCV wasn't. Assuming that you for instance keep expanding and never over-saturate, one SCV will give you a set mineral income ad in-finitum. By killing that SCV you have permanently taken that away until the end off time, you don't 'replace' SCV's or probes, because you always produce them non-stop anyway. An SCV killed is an irreperairable loss, I mean, protoss can perhaps decide to chrono them then, but for terran, it is gone forever. Killing a mule I'd say is always a bad decision in favour of killing an SCV. Killing a mule costs the opponent a bounded and fixed price, nothing more. An SCV will keep generating income for the remainder of the game if not killed, assuming here for sake of simplicity that you don't ever mine out the map. ... In a normal game, that may be true. But against somebody making lots of extra OCs, unless it's very early in the game, they are presumably not going to be producing SCVs out of ALL of their CCs non stop. When you have 5 or 6 CCs fairly early in the game, I have to imagine that you arn't going to have all of them churning out SCVs constantly, or you would end up with no supply for an army before long. If you are going to have CCs not always producing, then the cost of a dead SCV really is 50 minerals plus the loss of mining before it was replaced. The whole "well you are still an SCV short because the new worker could have been "additional" rather than "replacement" doesn't apply if you have spare SCV production capacity.
Nonsense, 194 SCVs + 1BC All-In is the true goal of this build, but everyone loses to its Marine Harassment before we can actually achieve it!
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I love this build concept. I feel like this good be the answer to letting Terran keep up in the lategame, especially once we get bigger maps.
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EPT
