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[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-02-01 00:27:45
December 02 2010 19:50 GMT
#1
My ID: Griffith.583 (US) feel free to request TvZs against this

To all Terrans, ever DREAD going into mid-game feeling like you're going against a ticking timebomb? Ever want to pull out your teeth than to go into a macro TvZ game? Ever WISHED you could force zerg to feel the "Pressure or Die"? Well, here's a new BO for you guys!

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Griffith_4OC_(vs._Zerg) (more up-to-date)

^^ the above wiki is more up to date, below is deprecated.
+ Show Spoiler +


Build Order:

+ Show Spoiler +

OPENING

10 Supply Depot
12 Rax (make marines)
14 Rax (make marines, once you make 5 marines send them to the enemy ASAP, you want to deal damage, exchange supply with zerg if they 14/15 hatch. **CAVEAT, if on your scouting SCV, you see that your opponent is 1basing, ie. 5RR or 1base dimaga baneling bust, do NOT send your 5 marines, wall off appropriately with your 22 CC and add in a bunker or two. 27 SD then 27 CC. )
15 OC
16 Supply Depot
23 CC
27 CC
27 Supply Depot (SD is built AFTER CC because we should have been able to free 5 supply from the 5 marine rush)
31 CC (***Situational and map dependent due to several factors***)
33 Gas
33 Gas

Once CCs are finished, convert into orbital commands. Take only your natural, dont bother taking your 3rd until you have an army in the 120+ food count that can help you safely secure your third. It is way too dangerous to try and take a 3rd. Yes I know it looks absolutely retarded but it is quite strong in defending against early pressure like 5RR/7RR, baneling busts. The 2 rax opening can pump out a lot more marines than you can think to give you more than an adequate defense. Because of the hugely macro-oriented opening, this opens up an entirely new mid-game for Terran with some devastating builds. I've tested with 3 transitions fairly successfully.



Standard Transitions


If you are new to the macro mechanics of 4OC, I recommend starting with Transition #1 until you get the hang of the insane income.

Transition #1: MM(+M):
+ Show Spoiler +

Marine Marauder (+Medivac) is a fairly strong transition as it has a relatively low gas dependence, and is thus, mineral-bound. You only need get 2, maybe 3 out of the 4 available geysers. Marauders can tank Banelings like a boss. Your goal is to immediately make the equivalent of a 20 rax. eg. while adding in two engineering bays. You can feel free to send in waves at 60 food, 100 food, and 150 food, it will keep the zerg on his feet.

Building Composition (make 10 raxes total, so 8 more after you get your CCs up)

4 Raxes w/ tech lab making marauders (8 marauders every minute, 16 supply)
6 Raxes w/ reactor making marines (28 marines every minute, 28 supply)

Replenish rate: 44 supply every minute.

If you want to incorporate Medivacs, esp if you see a ton of infestors, put up fact after you have 4 raxes, and go for the following building composition:

1 Port with Reactor making medivacs (2.84 or ~3 Medivacs every minute, ~6 supply)
3 Rax w/ Tech Lab making marauders (6 Marauders every minute, ~12 supply)
5 Rax w/ Reactor making marines (23.33 Marines every minute, ~23 supply)

Replenish rate: 41 supply every minute.

The following 6 things are important:
1. Take Expo and put up Bunkers at expo, transfer workers, constant MULEs.
2. Set up turrets at base and expo to prevent muta harass.
3. Research Stim, Marine Shield, +1 weapons upgrade, +1 armor upgrade. EDIT: and concussive shells (thanks for the replies). Keep up those upgrades!!
4. If he has a heavy heavy roach or baneling army, increase marauders ratio to 1:1.
5. Once you have a dominant army, move another OC and secure your third with your humongous army.
6. Your 200/200 army is PERSISTENT, meaning it can replenish it self extremely fast (within minutes). It's almost an aggressive "300-food army" , as coined by day9.

What this gives you:

13-14 Minute Push (12:30 provided you have perfect macro):


You should have a 200/200 Marine Marauder food army, with stim, with combat shields, and with 1/1 upgrades just about to finish.


Transition #2: Tank/Hellion/MM:
+ Show Spoiler +

This transition is disgustingly strong against nearly all zerg combinations, the timing push comes 2-3 minutes before Zerg safely can earliest tech to Broodlord/Ultralisk. Esp if he has invested significantly in banelings/roaches/slings/infestors. Read the Advanced Biomech Transition Timing guide for additional information.

You will need all 4 gas geysers to maintain this. Right after you 33 double gas,starting with your 2 raxes, add buildings in the following order:

You can simultaneously support:

2 Fact w/ tech lab pumping out two siege tanks (2 per minute, 6 supply/min)
1 Fact w/ reactor pumping out dual hellions (4 per minute, 8 supply/min)
2 Rax w/ tech lab pumping out marauders (4 per minute, 8 supply/min)
6 Rax w/o addons pumping out marines (12 per minute, 12 supply/min) Note it's probably cheaper to just make 6 raxes as opposed to 3rax w/reactors, you really need as much gas as you can get - 150 gas on reactors is a lot.

Replenish rate: 34 Supply every minute (ie. the mech transition takes 30% longer to replenish in case of wipe-out)

Ratio of Tanks:Hellions:Marauders:Marines in the final composition is:
1:2:2:6

14-15:30 Minute Push:

8 tanks, 16 hellions, 16 marauders, 48 marines. Timed properly, you will have the following upgrades just finishing:
Stim/CombatShield/ConcShell
Siege Tank Tech
Pre-igniters
Infantry 1/1 upgrades
(Preferably by the second push, +1 vehicle weapons upgrade)


Transition #3: MM Thor into 3Thor 3Medivac Hatch Snipe:
+ Show Spoiler +

Marine Marauder Thor is another disgustingly strong combination, mainly for two reasons:

1) it is extremely difficult to aggress MM thor mid-game

and 2) What it leads to.

After your opening, take all 4 gases, make a total of 4 raxes (as usual), then

Go for a total of:

2 fact w/ tech labs to pump out thors.
2 rax w/ tech labs to pump out marauders.
12 rax (no addons) to pump out marines.

After your mid-game push and you've taken your third. Make a reactored starport, in fact, you can even cut thor production early (ie push with 3 thors as opposed to 6 thors) if you want to time it for the mid-game push.

Ultimately, you want to go for the combo:

3Medivacs, 3Thor, and 250mm strike cannon.

This allows Terran to go around and quickly snipe off hatcheries (1500 HP), 3x500damage from 250mm cannon = dead hatchery. The biggest advantage however, when compared to standard MMM drops, is that the 3 thor drop is safe from being chased by mutas, as 3 dropped thors will quickly obliterate muta clumps, even without magic box.

The biggest issue in the past that has prevented this from being played competitively is that there wasn't really a way to transition into it (relatively quickly) without overexposing yourself to early game pressure. However, with the 4OC build


Transition #4: Marine Raven / SK Terran (antisocialmunky)
+ Show Spoiler +

Deferred to:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605

Antisocialmunky has an amazing thread about its cost effectiveness. The 4OC variant of SK Terran is basically the standard Marine / Raven but with about 3 times more pressure / # of marines.



Which transition to use

+ Show Spoiler +

If your opponent is going for sling/bling/infestors (no mutas), go for transition #2
If your opponent is going bling/sling/muta, go for either transition #1 (if you have amazing control) or #3 (if you want to play it safe)
If your opponent is going for roaches/baneling, modify #2 by cutting hellion and pump instead into marines, be sure to keep up tank production)



The Advanced Biomech Transition Timing

+ Show Spoiler +

Warning: This essentially outlines transition #2, but with the caveat of being EXTREMELY apm intensive and detailed as you will need to micro/macro at a FRANTIC pace. It will take probably about 1-2 months of practice. Thus, it is recommended most for 2k+ Terran players. You need superb micro and macro skill. The transition uses absolute in-game timing as opposed to supply-timing because of the large macro dependency.

The Strategy
------------------

Any strategy should have a key element of synergy, ie. a combination of strategical decisions that collaboration, produces an effect whos benefit is greater than the sum of its whole (ie. 2+2=5 mentality). The strategy is to simultaneously delay zerg's macro ability (using a never ending supply of blue flame hellion raids) while teching up and building a fearsome biomech army.

Synergy elements for this strat:

-4OC provides you with an overabundance of minerals
-Hellions are an extremely cost-effective way of harassing the mineral line. Hellions also happen to be mineral bound
-The only zerg unit that can catch up to Hellion is the speedling on creep, which coincidentally, gets destroyed by blue flame hellions (With proper kiting/stutter step techniques). The Hellion is faster than the Muta and Roach.


Building Production Schedule (This is an extremely tight timing, if you do it well you will be about 30 seconds to 1:30 minute late behind schedule.)

6:30 should be when the opening ends and you should just finish your expo's OC.
6:30 +2 Raxes (4 total), build them in such a way that it walls off your natural expo
6:30 Tech lab on both raxes (Research concussive shells)
7:00 Take both gases at expo
7:00 Build bunkers at expo
7:30 Reactor off two raxes (4 raxes total, 2 tech lab, 2 reactored)
8:05 Double Ebay (You can use them as part of your wall, research +1/+1 ASAP)
8:10 Double Fact
8:40 Research Infantry +1/+1 upgrades.
9:25 Swap 1 Fact onto Tech-lab from Rax, Swap other fact onto reactor
9:25 Start hellion production
9:25 Armory
9:35 Research Blue-Flame
9:40 +2 Raxes (6 total now, 2 with tech labs, 4 with reactor)
9:40 +1 Fact (3 total now, 2 with tech labs making tanks, 1 with reactor making hellions)
10:00 Begin Onslaught of hellion harass (you'll have 2 blue-flamed hellions every 30 seconds to endlessly harass mineral lines)
10:15 Sensor Tower in main + 2 Turrets (optional, but I like to do it)
10:45 +1 Vehicle weapons upgrade
10:45 Switch to Thor Production for one cycle (Make 2 Thors total)
11:20 Research Infantry +2/+2 upgrades.
12:10 Stimpack research
12:40 Combat Shields
13:00 Secure your 3rd
13:10 Siege tech

EDITING STILL

-----------------------------------------------------

By around 12-13 minutes, you should have

:: Mineral Income of about 2200/gas income of 228/456 depending the transition
:: Most zergs will be at about 100~120 food, tops.
:: Feel free to push earlier if you want, (I know thread title says its a 200 food push, but realistically, after some feedback from TLers, if the zerg starts to mass expand and provided you have the apm/macro/micro, you can and should push much more aggressively and early)


When to push, when to expand, and where to attack (coming soon):
+ Show Spoiler +


You absolutely have to scout throughout the game. One of the key strengths of the MMM variant is mobility. Most zergs take a third between 9 minutes to 11 minutes, so absolutely make sure you know its progress. Zerg macro is still unbelievably frightening if left unchecked. If the zerg however, decides to all-in with a 2base build like econ roach or econ baneling bust, then turtle up until you can 200/200 - let the zerg waste his precious larvae on combat units.

EXPAND USING PLANETARY FORTRESSES. Yes - spend that 550/150 at around 12 minutes to make another CC->PF for expansion, 550/150 is CHUMP CHANGE. It takes you 15 seconds to make that much minerals and 20 seconds to make that much gas.



Maps
+ Show Spoiler +


Good 4OC Maps:
Lost Temple (Non-close position)
Jungle Basin
Delta Quadrant
Shakuras Plateau
Scrap Station


Bad 4OC Maps:

Xel'naga cavern (3 entrances to your nat makes it very hard to defend)
Metalopolis (Close position makes it very hard to take a 3rd)






FAQs

+ Show Spoiler +

Q: Why doesn't this work against Toss?
A: 5 marine timing push does very little against toss, also 3gate robo, blink stalker timing push, 4gate, and 3gate all-in are far too common place and completely undefendable. Marauders w/ concshells is needed and it necessitates gas, which delays the OCs considerably. Special thanks to farseerdk for pointing these and several other TvP issues out.

Q: How do you deal with 5RR?
A: You will need two bunkers at ramp as soon as you spot the early Roach Warren. Two loaded bunkers with 4 SCVs remaining is usually enough. Although 2 bunkers will delay your CCs by about 1.5 minutes, 5RR delays zerg significantly macro. This build IS 5RR proof, it has been tested on steppes of war (shortest rush distance of any map) numerous times.

Q: How do you deal with all-in baneling bust?
A: The solution is well placed wall-ins. If you want to play safe, do not use a supply depot to wall-off. Furthermore, if you spot early double gas (tell tale sign of baneling bust), you can position your ramp such that it is walled off by two barracks and a command center. Which requires 15 banelings and an all-in strat. Like the 5RR, baneling busts puts the zerg so far behind on econ that if you survive, you will be able to roll them over easily.

Q: How do you deal with muta harass?
A: Spam turrets. Like a boss. (Watch some VODs of Flash from BW, he literally spams turrets like no tomorrow, and for good reason.)

Q: When/what do you take your 3rd with?
Preferably at around 13-14 minutes, using a PLANETARY FORTRESS. It only costs 550 minerals + 150 gas, or about 15-20 seconds worth of mining time. (income of 2200/450 gas). PFs are so hard to take down, especially when you get the +2 building armor upgrade.

Q: Why doesn't the zerg double/triple/quadruple expand?
A: Let's look at the timing. Remember zerg will have been hit by a 5 marine push at around 5:00, these 5 marines will also be able to deny any early overlord scouting to prevent seeing the 4OC. It also makes it seem like you are doing a standard 2rax-expo or 5-rax all-in. The zerg can only comfortably double+ expand if he has scouted your build. You can hide your CCs away from the ramp. Your fourth 4th CC is placed at around 5:30 and finishes at around 7:00. Meaning realistically, the Zerg would have to sac Overlords to see the 4OCs at around 5:30 and double expand at between 6 to 8 minutes. You will have enough marines patrolling your base to make this very difficult. If he starts the expos at 6:00, he won't finish the hatcheries until 7:40.

You have at least around 15-25 marines _already_ at 8:00 (from the production off of the 2rax). At 8:30 minutes the Terran already has 6 raxes churning out marines non-stop. I think the timing is too dangerous for the zerg to double expand. Terran doesn't _have_ to sit until 200/200. Triple expanding means zerg will have no way of defending a 75 food push. Taking a 2nd expo seems feasible, but 3rd seems impossible. But again, even taking a 2nd expo doesn't even come close to 2200 minerals/min.



Why this strat works and is distinctly unique from other BOs :

+ Show Spoiler +

1. 4 OCs abuses the fact that you can OVERSATURATE a mineral patch, so being on 2 bases with 4 OCs is really as if you are being on 4 bases (only difference is that you can't produce as much gas intensive units). Though you WILL deplete your main extremely quickly.
2. Oversaturation means that you can have mineral income equivalent of 3 and a half bases
3. The biggest problem with a 200/200 army for terran is that it takes so damn long to replenish, however, if you have 16 rax constantly pumping out, you'll be at 200/200 the whole game.
4. Once you have a dominate position, it allows you to easily take a 3rd expo.
5. You will OUTWORKER the zerg, meaning your SCV count will be on par with the zerg's drone count, if not superior.
6. Perhaps the most important of all, it is disguised as a very aggressive 2rax+expo or 5rax-all-in, it forces things like spinecrawlers, early banelings, etc. to slow down the zerg economy.
7. It lets you STABILIZE a 200/200 army, meaning they can be very quickly replenished after tradeoffs, many terran builds and mid-game suffers in that it is very tedious and arduous to replenish that 200/200 army.


Replays against 2K+ Diamond zergs




Replays!
+ Show Spoiler +


vVvNGry vs EGStrifeCro (SCL Seasons 1 Finals, zerg is 3000+ Diamond)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/114746-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
(VOD)

Me vs. various zergs
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/111592-1v1-terran-zerg-jungle-basin
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/111586-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/113428-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/117969-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133049-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133047-2v2-terran-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/133046-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns



Mindflow vs. various zergs
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112393-1v1-terran-zerg-jungle-basin
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112397-2v2-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant
(Extra special thanks to CatsPajamas for sending, you can see his stream at own3d.tv/live/3155)

ir0nclad vs. DukeWu (2000+ Z)
http://www.mediafire.com/?7cuunnvy39j6yqz

Lylat versus Silent (2600+ Z)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112417-1v1-terran-zerg-jungle-basin
http://www.mediafire.com/?9vtdz9mk54ckgq7

Bixs vs kaier (2300+ Z)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/112391-1v1-terran-zerg-steppes-of-war

iEchoic vs ladder zerg
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=171655

Sophia versus a 2k+ zerg trying to eco baneling bust
http://www.mediafire.com/?791ifpvkneimz27

Seniorcuado vs. various 2.2k+ zergs
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=171778
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=download&id=171779

TalkingCamel vs WinD
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/113973-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns

vVvNGry vs. various zergs
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121051-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121053-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau

SK Terran Transitions

http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/117042-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/117041-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130825-1v1-terran-zerg-delta-quadrant (SK Terran)
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/130877-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns (SK Terran)



EDIT: if any TL zerg players (1k+ Diamond please) wants to test the BO with me, PM griffith.583 on US. PS. POST REPLAYS (SUCCESSFUL OR NOT)!
griffith.583 (NA)
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
December 02 2010 19:54 GMT
#2
Aren't you only all two rax when buildig all those CC's? Sounds incredibly vulnerable to a multitude of attacks if Zerg scouts it.
patron
Profile Joined July 2010
United States63 Posts
December 02 2010 20:07 GMT
#3
That was hilariously entertaining, however I only watched the first game. That was indeed a very powerful army very early in the game, I think though that had the Zerg controlled better he should have won quite easily. Too often he engaged at the choke, and made your army more efficient in doing so. Perhaps you opponent plays better in the seconds game, and that is a better display of the strength of this build, but I definitely think you have found something here. I noticed towards the end you were floating really high on gas, perhaps the perfect addition would be ghosts to emp infestors and snipe banelings, provided you have the APM to do so.
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
Itrees
Profile Joined October 2010
United States59 Posts
December 02 2010 20:09 GMT
#4
Fascinating. Two extra OCs costs 400 mins per CC, plus another 150 per for the upgrade, meaning 550 per OC, 1100 min total?
If a mule is 300 mins, that means you're back to even after just 4 mule calldowns, which should happen , so after the fourth mule calldown, it's all profit.

I can see why this might've worked really well on jungle basin.
Every zerg is sacred. Every zerg is great. If, a zerg gets wasted, Idra leaves the game.
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
December 02 2010 20:11 GMT
#5
On December 03 2010 05:09 Itrees wrote:
Fascinating. Two extra OCs costs 400 mins per CC, plus another 150 per for the upgrade, meaning 550 per OC, 1100 min total?
If a mule is 300 mins, that means you're back to even after just 4 mule calldowns, which should happen , so after the fourth mule calldown, it's all profit.

I can see why this might've worked really well on jungle basin.


Don't forget you save on the 100 supply depot
griffith.583 (NA)
Endorsed
Profile Joined May 2010
Netherlands1221 Posts
December 02 2010 20:13 GMT
#6
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 20:17:30
December 02 2010 20:16 GMT
#7
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote:
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?


He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.
griffith.583 (NA)
patron
Profile Joined July 2010
United States63 Posts
December 02 2010 20:16 GMT
#8
Having watched the second game, I really like this build, as the best counter would be baneling/infestor, which your opponent tried and failed. The second game was a much better display, showing that with good marauder control, this build is a force to be reckoned with. i did find myself worrying about an early baneling bust or roach push, maybe upload a replay of you dealing with those?
To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the gift.
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
December 02 2010 20:18 GMT
#9
On December 03 2010 05:16 Griffith` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote:
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?


He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.


Well, actually he can. Two rax army is hardly enough to prevent Zerg from taking the map. They can hardcore powerdrones with relatively few units and still few safe.
Gemini_19
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1228 Posts
December 02 2010 20:18 GMT
#10
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote:
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?


He also needs to saturate all those bases with the same larva he makes units with. Due to the earlyness (made up word ftw?) of this maxed army I feel as though the zerg would be caught completely off guard and still won't be able to make as many units.

I do think it is definitely vulnerable but this is extremely interesting.
@GGemini19 GM Protoss | http://www.twitch.tv/geminisc2 | I <333 HerO & Trap | Check out my Build of the Week series on /r/allthingsprotoss, TL, or Spawning Tool
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 20:30:39
December 02 2010 20:22 GMT
#11
On December 03 2010 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2010 05:16 Griffith` wrote:
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote:
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?


He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.


Well, actually he can. Two rax army is hardly enough to prevent Zerg from taking the map. They can hardcore powerdrones with relatively few units and still few safe.


The main problem is how you plan on scouting 4 CCs. If positioned well, the CCs can be hidden from ramp vision and is unscoutable unless you sac a very early overlord. If your ramp drone can scout one OC (he might think 2 rax expand), or no OCs, (5rax allin). In both these scenarios, Z can't expand. This build is DISGUISED as a very early aggressive "all-in", esp with the 5 marine timing push, but allows a smooth transition into a scary 200/200 army.
griffith.583 (NA)
AnodyneSea
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Jamaica757 Posts
December 02 2010 20:27 GMT
#12
I actually played you last night doing this build, when i watched the replay to my surprise and saw the build i thought it was quite clever. Also made me rant to a friend on how retarded mules are... anyway nice build keep it coming
Lost within the hope of freedom, not for control but in the light of our cause
Vari
Profile Joined September 2010
United States532 Posts
December 02 2010 20:30 GMT
#13
when you turtle up that expo I'd just be surprised if you don't get busted.

I can't watch the replays right now, if that happens and you survive I'd be intrigued.
Stroke Me Lady Fame
FabledIntegral
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States9232 Posts
December 02 2010 20:30 GMT
#14
On December 03 2010 05:22 Griffith` wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2010 05:18 FabledIntegral wrote:
On December 03 2010 05:16 Griffith` wrote:
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote:
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?


He really can't, T will constantly be making an army the entire time. The mechanics of terran are different, we can make simultaneously both units and workers. For this reason, Terran is constantly be making an army. Once T has even 100+ food, it is already a dangerous amount of pressure for zerg to be going on 3expos. I don't think the Zerg will be able to make an expansion without it getting sniped really quickly. Zerg literally needs to start making unit en-masse at around 9-10 minutes else the 200/200 army will just roll over everything.


Well, actually he can. Two rax army is hardly enough to prevent Zerg from taking the map. They can hardcore powerdrones with relatively few units and still few safe.


The main problem is how you plan on scouting 4 CCs. If positioned well, the CCs can be hidden from ramp vision unless you sac a very early overlord. If your ramp drone can scout one OC (he might think 2 rax expand), or no OCs, (5rax allin). In both these scenarios, Z can't expand. This build is DISGUISED as a very early aggressive "all-in", esp with the 5 marine timing push, but allows a smooth transition into a scary 200/200 army.


I never said that you couldn't hide it. I was just saying if scouted.
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
December 02 2010 20:32 GMT
#15
I don't understand, do you stay on 2 rax all game long ?
AnodyneSea
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Jamaica757 Posts
December 02 2010 20:34 GMT
#16
On December 03 2010 05:32 MrCon wrote:
I don't understand, do you stay on 2 rax all game long ?


yes he gets 200/200 in 13-14 minutes on 2 rax


no he makes like 10-12 rax and pumps out of them cause he has huge income
Lost within the hope of freedom, not for control but in the light of our cause
Vega08
Profile Joined September 2010
United States17 Posts
December 02 2010 20:35 GMT
#17
On December 03 2010 05:13 Endorsed wrote:
So when zerg scouts 3 inbase command centers. You really think he isn't just going to throw up 3 expansions himself taking the whole map? Having a superior production?

agreed
Wolf
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)3290 Posts
December 02 2010 20:36 GMT
#18
Sounds interesting. Will download these replays. If this ends up seeming like a good strategy, I might feature it on one of my casts.
Commentatorhttp://twitter.com/proxywolf
TL+ Member
MrCon
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
France29748 Posts
December 02 2010 20:37 GMT
#19
On December 03 2010 05:34 AnodyneSea wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 03 2010 05:32 MrCon wrote:
I don't understand, do you stay on 2 rax all game long ?


yes he gets 200/200 in 13-14 minutes on 2 rax


no he makes like 10-12 rax and pumps out of them cause he has huge income

yeah that made no sense but I guess I missread the op
Saechiis
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Netherlands4989 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-12-02 20:43:21
December 02 2010 20:40 GMT
#20
Hahaha, just watched the replay on Xel'Naga.

No way that's a 2.3k Zerg. He never scouted you after seeing the initial 2 rax and just started to blindly pump banelings off 2 base and proceeded to not do anything with them till you attacked him with a maxed bio army. He never even scouted you had expanded and had 5 orbital commands lol.

His macro also kinda sucked, after he threw all his banelings into your bio (and for some reason he moved them along with the muta's so the mutalisks didn't even attack) he had 3k 2k in minerals and gas saved up but no larvae to spend them on since he never used larvae spit.

Long story short, if he had rolled all those banelings he had built into your bases you would've died. If they were roaches you also would've died, if he had expanded for every command center you made you also would've died.

It's just economic cheese.
I think esports is pretty nice.
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