EPTThe most standard variations of the 3 or 4 OC pushes would seem to play right into spanishiwa's style as they throw things at the front door of a zerg that has found a VERY cost effective way to hold his front.
Correct me if I am wrong.
[G] TvZ Griffith's 4OC Pressure Push - Page 36
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vaderseven
United States2556 Posts
The most standard variations of the 3 or 4 OC pushes would seem to play right into spanishiwa's style as they throw things at the front door of a zerg that has found a VERY cost effective way to hold his front. Correct me if I am wrong. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
1. I do some 2 racks pressure, we trade armies. 2. I secure my expansion, he drones up. 3. I send some more units to his expansion; he kills them but does not build more military then necessary. 4. I build 2 more OCs in my base; he takes his 3rd and drones hard. 5. I try to take out his 3rd but his economy is equal or better than mine since he droned hard. I have no tanks since this build gets gas late, he wipes my army with speedlings/banelings and maybe some infestors. Am I doing something wrong or should this build be abandoned since it seems impossible to outeco zerg, the moment you do not attack with a huge army they drone as much as they can. Is it better to just go 1-base SCV all-in or 1-base marine into tank push since that at least will keep his drone count low? Also, what units should you build after marines? Since you take gas late it will take a long time until you have tanks with siege mode, even longer before you get them to the Zergs 3rd. I have tried going MMM instead but that is very week to almost anything but roaches. | ||
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DevanT
United States71 Posts
This strategy came and disappeared for a reason. Better to not to try to outmacro like this build suggests, but better to mess with their macro. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
I wouldn't say the strategy disappeared, it's just a very advanced lategame strategy which only gets used on giant macro maps like taldarim and terminus. You can see koreans do it from time to time. | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
What do you mean land OC's behind your big attack? How would that help? | ||
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ReachTheSky
United States3294 Posts
On June 09 2011 02:16 darkscream wrote: This build actually starts to appear in long macro games, always, on maps like Tal'Darim Altar. Terrans bleed their SCVs with a mech attack and then run off mules, since there are so many places to hide orbitals, you transition into this style of play in the late game after your first 3-4 bases are mining out. You land all the orbitals behind your big attack. I wouldn't say the strategy disappeared, it's just a very advanced lategame strategy which only gets used on giant macro maps like taldarim and terminus. You can see koreans do it from time to time. yeah i've only seen koreans go up to 3 ocs fast off a 2 rax, haven't seen 4 in a very long time | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
Even if this third gets discovered, I will have already mined enough to pay for it and have gained some benefit for it. This allows me to get a really, really powerful army quickly and do a fast 200/200 push. My composition of choice is Hellion/Thor with 0/3 upgrades and Marine or Marauder support depending if Zerg went Roach or Muta. 0/3 mech upgrades is how I deal with Infestors. Attack upgrades make no significant difference against Zerg but armor + SCVs repairing give you an army that is literally impossible to take down with less than two waves of units. To counter NP on my thors, the 0/3 upgrades allow my thors to tank the friendly fire damage better while also taking less because there are no attack upgrades. Voila! I've had very high success rates with high economy midgames against Zerg  Don't be afraid to double expand!Edit: Also a small note against Brood Lords....typically this would be the hard counter to this build because there is no Starport tech. However, Griffith himself made a guide on Hellion/Thor vs Brood Lord that I have used substantially to completely shut down Brood Lords with zero problems. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205159 | ||
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Crugio
Australia45 Posts
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Griffith`
714 Posts
On June 09 2011 12:03 Crugio wrote: @Synystyr: I like the note on Hellion/Thor mix. Qu: How does that combo deal with say an equal value of Ultras. i.e. the late game BL/Ultra switch. Ultras beat Thors with ~10 hp left over. Add in some marauders and problem solved. Mass roaches may be more of a problem before you get a critical amount of thors (but if you pull SCVs you can fend it off fairly well). | ||
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DamAnus
67 Posts
On June 09 2011 02:47 Synystyr wrote: I've tweaked this build to my own tastes in TvZ. On big macro maps (Tal'darim, Shakuras and Shattered), I go for a double expand off 2 barracks and float the first CC off with 5 SCVS loaded up to a nearby third and exploit the benefits. With a 3 bunker wall and a hidden third, it looks like I am turtling off two bases against the Zerg while in reality I'm way ahead in economy. Even if this third gets discovered, I will have already mined enough to pay for it and have gained some benefit for it. This allows me to get a really, really powerful army quickly and do a fast 200/200 push. My composition of choice is Hellion/Thor with 0/3 upgrades and Marine or Marauder support depending if Zerg went Roach or Muta. 0/3 mech upgrades is how I deal with Infestors. Attack upgrades make no significant difference against Zerg but armor + SCVs repairing give you an army that is literally impossible to take down with less than two waves of units. To counter NP on my thors, the 0/3 upgrades allow my thors to tank the friendly fire damage better while also taking less because there are no attack upgrades. Voila! I've had very high success rates with high economy midgames against Zerg Don't be afraid to double expand!Edit: Also a small note against Brood Lords....typically this would be the hard counter to this build because there is no Starport tech. However, Griffith himself made a guide on Hellion/Thor vs Brood Lord that I have used substantially to completely shut down Brood Lords with zero problems. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=205159 Your 200/200 push is an all in. If the zerg hold it you lost. roachs /infestors with good upgrades totally destroy Thors/helion. | ||
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Freud
Sweden54 Posts
Cheers | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On June 09 2011 16:16 DamAnus wrote: Your 200/200 push is an all in. If the zerg hold it you lost. roachs /infestors with good upgrades totally destroy Thors/helion. Tbh in the same way, most/all mech plays are "allin", since you can never loose a battle. In general when you have 200/200, I feel it's just way to far into the game to call something allin(or cheese). | ||
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iDrone
United States176 Posts
Depending on the map I may suggest trying to take a hidden expo to drop all the mules ( after you've set up infrastructure... I imagine that your $ will be extremely high... Tal'Darim Altar/Slag Pits ) also I think double engi bay is a must with this build...as I think the focus of the build is towards the mid-late. | ||
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rebotfc
United Kingdom144 Posts
I find infestors the hardest to deal with when massing thors. Thanks | ||
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
On June 09 2011 17:40 Zarahtra wrote: Tbh in the same way, most/all mech plays are "allin", since you can never loose a battle. In general when you have 200/200, I feel it's just way to far into the game to call something allin(or cheese). It's not an all-in but if you lose your army it will take too long to reproduce so you will get boned. I agree that calling something an all-in at 200/200 doesn't make sense though. | ||
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Synystyr
United States1446 Posts
On June 09 2011 12:03 Crugio wrote: @Synystyr: I like the note on Hellion/Thor mix. Qu: How does that combo deal with say an equal value of Ultras. i.e. the late game BL/Ultra switch. I've only come across Ultras twice...honestly can't say I have enough experience on the matter, but I think with Marauder support, 0/3 upgrades and SCVs repairing, you should be able to trade evenly. The BL/Ultra switch does not affect me because I never get Vikings. On June 09 2011 16:16 DamAnus wrote: Your 200/200 push is an all in. If the zerg hold it you lost. roachs /infestors with good upgrades totally destroy Thors/helion. I'll be on 3 bases taking a fourth as I attack. I should at least be able to trade armies decently as this 200/200 composition is one of the best against mid-game Zergs. I disagree that this is all-in. I don't want to completely hijack Griffith's thread, so I'll spend my time today creating a guide. Expect one within the near future  | ||
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Treehead
999 Posts
On June 09 2011 23:11 Synystyr wrote: I don't want to completely hijack Griffith's thread, so I'll spend my time today creating a guide. Expect one within the near future Yay! Gogo Syn - your builds are awesome! | ||
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Griffith`
714 Posts
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Zilong67
France12 Posts
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