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[D/H] The end of Supply Depots? - Page 3
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Danze
Australia219 Posts
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Tossup
United States208 Posts
I dunno if that made much sense, but it sure seems broken that you can gain without spending supply. | ||
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
On December 02 2010 18:38 Tossup wrote: The nexus ability doesn't even compare to the versatility of OC energy. Chrono energy basically allows protoss to spend money faster. But the problem is that spending it faster doesn't matter if you can't gather it fast enough. So there is a some what balance between when to spend the money and gathering money. OC's on the otherhand gathers money faster. Gathering is the only real limit in any race; you can't spend without gathering. So because the OC gathers while not taking minerals to invest (harvesters), there will be more flexibility in the amount of investment. I dunno if that made much sense, but it sure seems broken that you can gain without spending supply. Actually, if Protoss use its Chrono boost only on probe making. They will have a very large amount of probe in midgame. I think Blizzard will tweak the MULE somehow to make it less usable. Maybe decrease the amount of minerals the MULE mine is a good thing to do. | ||
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ABCSFirebird
Germany90 Posts
For <=16 SCVs the income per second and SCV is about 0,7 Minerals/sec. => a depot costs actually 135 Minerals => a CC costs actually 470 Minerals Considering the Supply a CC costs 470 Minerals - 11/8*135minerals = 284,38 Minerals and a SCV costs 66,88 Minerals. Adding the 150 Minerals of the Orbital Command its (284,38 +150 = 434,35) Minerals for an income of 3,17 Minerals / second (270/85). 3,17 Minerals / second is equivalent with 4,54 SCVs @ 0,7 Minerals / second. So it is 434,35 for the "pure orbital strategy" vs 303,64 mineral costs with a standard strategy not using mules (which would get even more effective if using mules). => its not really broken as long there is absolutley no saturation effect on the minerals (0,7 Minerals/sec). However, according to my calculations the SCVs #17 to #20 generate each an income of about 0,37 Minerals/sec. Taking this as a calculation base its 434,35 Minerals for orbital strat vs 573 Minerals for a standard strat not using mules. I am currently not sure how to consider the mules in a standard strategy, but as i practical result I'd say (more guess) that, at the point you have already 16 SCVs on Minerals at all your expansions, start building Orbital Commands only instead of Depots and SCVs. | ||
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sixpeppers
United States1 Post
But seriously, interesting but needs to be more midgame | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
i dont think completely skipping depots besides the first one is viable, but after a certain point its surely a good idea. but i dont think its feasible to rush straight for the mass orbitals in the earlygame or early midgame. but as a lategame strategy, it might be a brilliant idea. one of the main problems with terran in sc2 is the (perceived) lategame weakness. and this weakness is due to a maxed mech army not being nearly as strong as in bw. now, what if we can sac scvs somewhere in the late midgame during one of our timing pushes and then replace them by mules from mass orbitals? imagine how strong a 170 supply mech army would be..... 20 tanks, 12 thors and either 30 marines or 15 hellions. fearsome. some other potential benefits of getting rather early additional orbitals: the more ccs u got, the more easily u can replace scvs lost to harass. and the more mules u got, the less the potential scv losses will hurt ur income. it also means permanent scans. the other major problem i see besides the early game vulnerability is how mass mules would mean that u burn through expos much faster, so u have to secure new expansions really early on, which makes u rather spread out and vulnerable. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6267 Posts
Also to add, I was listening to an interview where someone talked about endgame terran play where they sacrifice their SCVs for a bigger army and just use mules to mine. | ||
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Victim
United States188 Posts
I can't seem to get on liquidpedia atm, but supply depots take what, 30-40 seconds or something like that (I don't recall off the top of my head). A command center is 100 seconds IIRC, and 10 supply - and we need OCs to Mule, so that's another 40 seconds IIRC.. So you'll nearly need to build command centers at the same rate as depots to avoid getting blocked. Even without SCV production, you'll still need more supply than the equivalent of constant single depot production off two base. That means additional CCs will have to be started before the first ones finishes, and well in advance of when the player needs supply. To provide supply for the second Thor coming out of a factory, the CC has to be started before first Thor even begins. So to replace depots with CCs, you're essentially committing an extra 600 minerals before you see single crystal from the additional mules. Fast expanding seems viable (a lot of pros expand off one or two rax). Adding additional OCs for mass mules seems like it could be fantastic later in the game when players often have extra money. However, building additional OCs early after fast expanding is a massive investment in non-army exactly when most vulnerable. That extra 300 or so from the 2nd CC you build could have been two additional rax. Successful FE builds tend to boost their production levels ASAP to get enough units to repel one base assaults - 1 rax into CC tends to become 3 rax and factory, or 4 rax. And there's still a window of vulnerability against a lot of builds that Terran covers with bunkers, protoss often pulls probes to defend its one gate FE, etc. Spending additional money on economy at that point is going to vastly extend that period of weakness. | ||
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
A couple things I noticed quickly- #1 gas requires SCV's, as does building structures and to all intents and purposes so does repairing. Yes, mules can technically repair but generally you want them mining and it sucks to call down a mule just to repair some barracks or missile turret. This means you can't actually cut a lot of scv's and rely on mules, at least early on. SCV's are too useful, and provide dependable, constant, no-hassle mining. #2- you NEVER get to scan, damn. You would think you have so many orbital commands that scan would be cheap. Not at ALL the case. You are so dependent on mules for minerals that you must use all OC energy on mules. Missing a mule because you used a scan cuts into your income BADLY. I suppose if you got 15+ orbital commands this problem would go away, but it won't happen. #3- generally you will want to use supply drop on your first (necessary) depot because the first command center doesn't finish in time to avoid you getting supply blocked. #4- a typical main actually has surprisingly little room where you can build command centers, or park orbital commands. You run out of room in your base almost immediately. #5- very economically focused. Perhaps too much so. Investing 2000+ minerals in four additional orbital commands will get you killed if someone invests that in units. #6- OMG THE MONEY when it works. I actually got into the mid/late game a couple times doing this, and every time I had more money than I could spend. More barracks, more factories, more starports, more orbital commands, still more money than I could spend. Typically my macro is quite good, but HOLY SHIT the money. Biggest issue is that it's entirely minerals, gas can be hard to come by at this stage. Also you mine out expos faster than you can give them a suspicious look. #7- the biggest weakness is the other player will just make bases normally all over the map. Especially if they are zerg. Hatches only cost 300, about half what an orbital command costs, and they start paying off sooner, and in much greater volume, more constantly. They can and will take two hatcheries for each orbital command you have in your main. I learned the hard way that you cannot ninja people with orbital commands at other mains. They will find them and they will kill them. Extensive use of planetary fortresses and missile turrets is very good with this build. So while you're investing in orbital commands for a long term economic edge, the other player is taking more bases and already has more units than you. They take too long to start paying dividends if you are building the command center just to turn it into an orbital command. However the command center, used normally, is worth the 400 minerals by itself because you're taking a base. I feel like I only lost because I didn't spend my money as fast as I was making it. Perhaps one of these S-class players would be able to fine tune this build and make it work. It feels like it has a lot of potential, but it's extremely different from typical play. I love the idea, but it seems like it's impossible to do while simultaneously harassing. 4 hellions could have been a command center, for example. I'm going to go try some less extreme forms of this style, using only 1-2 in-base orbital commands and getting them later. Perhaps this style will be more viable if you start using it later- money is too tight early on for such long-term investments to work. | ||
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Cryosin
United States182 Posts
Using the supply drop is actually VERY cost effective if you have multiple orbital command centers. I just did a dry "no plans just make shit" run and i had a 200/200 marine/viking army in about 14 minutes with 3 bases mining(the 200/200 army came out as the mining started off the 3rd base). With some tweaking i will be able to easily make a 200/200 marine/viking/medivac army with at Least 2 bases at the 11-12 minute mark. WOW! Edit: 1 important thing to understand: If you lose a supply depot with a "drop" on it you lose even more supply. So be careful. Another thing to note is that if you constantly send marines at your opponent you dont have to build as many supply depots. | ||
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
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ledarsi
United States475 Posts
I mean seriously, when did your orbital commands finish? Post the replay please. | ||
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Nycaloth
147 Posts
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
You did make me think about things I could do with excess minerals...mainly more OCs...for even more minerals! (and lots of scans) | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
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Cryosin
United States182 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:35 ledarsi wrote: Cryosin you are full of it. There is no way you can get a 200/200 army in 14 minutes with this build. It's beyond impossible. I mean seriously, when did your orbital commands finish? Post the replay please. I wont post replays because i dont want people to know my new account for various reasons. But it IS possible. You can 2 rax and then build a CC. instead of building supply depots use your orbital command. Then build another CC and a shit ton of barracks. and then use mules and orbital supply drops to keep your economy going while you pump out marines. When your main becomes fully saturated you can just lift off and take map control(around 10 minutes). At around 12 minutes you should be pumping non stop units. The main vulnerability is something like an all-in baneling bust. Or really any all-in strategy. 4-gate could be scary but not as bad. Any rush past 7 minutes wont be viable against this build. There is nothing unusual about getting a 200 army at 14 minutes, btw. If you play Zerg and non-stop drone you could pump out a mass 200/200 zergling army with hatcheries and lings quicker than you think(around 14-15 minutes i believe). | ||
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zak
Korea (South)1009 Posts
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
A quick calculation - Supply Depot > OC in cost-for-supply for the first four minutes after you start building, OC > Supply Depot after that. | ||
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Valckrie
United Kingdom533 Posts
and it will take a long time for you to build loads of orbitals, and even longer for them to pay back enough for a sizeable army. It's not possible to get 200pop army using the build by 14minutes. | ||
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ABCSFirebird
Germany90 Posts
On December 02 2010 19:48 Cryosin wrote: You can 2 rax and then build a CC. instead of building supply depots use your orbital command. Thats actually not cost effective. Although you might not want to build supply depots with this build it would still be more effective to build them instead of using supply calldown. | ||
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