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On December 24 2010 07:43 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2010 07:09 Bixs wrote:On December 24 2010 06:38 pwadoc wrote:
This build seems like it relies on something that I would consider a bug. You should be reporting it and getting it fixed, not constructing a BO around it. Sigh.. the TL forums If you don't think this use of mules is broken, I don't know what to say. This is like the ultralisk bug when they killed everything repairing a structure. I don't really understand the rush to abuse broken mechanics.
Agreed, Blizzard made mules so Terran could catch up in Zergs power droning in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. This use of mules is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you.
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You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose.
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On December 27 2010 08:08 dslyecix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 07:01 grannock wrote:
This build is easily crushed by a decent player. Someone tried this against me for the first time the other day and it was a joke. Basically take 3-4 base and tech up and when they push out with their large army you already have broodlords. Player I beat was ~2600 with over 1500 terran wins. Just because you beat someone once doesn't mean the build is flawed. I don't have experience using it yet, but without posting the replay, nobody here can be certain your opponent used it right, kept pressure up properly etc.
Who is to say the build is perfect?
Any build will have its weakness... whether or not 4 Basing vs 4OC is a viable counter or not is going to require this guy to put up a replay though. But from what I've seen in prior replays, even going to 3 Base early usually results in the third being sniped by the 2nd Pressure.
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On December 27 2010 07:30 Griffith` wrote:
Replay? I'd be interested in the timing of his pushes. If you fast expand (ie pre 10 minute mark) he can just take a large ball of MM with stim and combat shields and deny any expansions.
You know if over expansion is the problem, it might be worth investing in octodrop or hellions as your beeline to buy you time to mass a doom push. Skip tanks for a starport and wall with your OCs so they know that they expand instead of try and break your front and then take advantage of that. You can probably skip combat shield first since you have surplus minerals and the ability to make bunkers.
Its then a catch 22 where Zerg knows your econ will support a ridiculous amount of barracks units and they can't 2 base BB so the only way to fight it is power drones and get a fast third. You counter this by teching straight to starport and going drop because Zerg will be stretched with less army and less tech. I think this allows you to hit ~7/8 minutes if you do it right since its much like my 2 rax Banshee Feint.(heck, you could go banshees but drop comes out stronger and faster) This also sets you up for banshees, blue flame/tank/Thor + bio.
You just need to be able to scout if zerg is sitting on 2 or going spire or expoing which you should with your mass scan capability. I suppose if a 2 base roach bust is incoming, you should grab a banshee and hold on best you can with bunkers or I suppose a p.fort in the natural since it should be apparent if you see lots of roaches massing.
Sounds like something QXC would pull off if he tried this.
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QXC actually did do 4OC last night on scrap station against Zelniq, but he did a bunker contain first to prevent the zerg from moving while he just kinda screwed out making 20 raxes and pumping marines non-stop and like 10 medivacs while he took every single expansion on the map (using PFs of-course). It was kinda hilarious.
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Well a bunker contain is frequently auto-win unless you do it to TLO. Then he just does something that you've never practiced against and get an entry in the next year's pimpest players.
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It wasn't a typical bunker contain, it was sort of a contain to prevent a 3rd. Zerg still had a fast 14 hatch and was running off of two bases quite comfortably. It was a bunker contain to prevent Z from getting a 3rd. Gonna see if QXC saved that replay.
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On December 27 2010 07:30 Griffith` wrote:
Replay? I'd be interested in the timing of his pushes. If you fast expand (ie pre 10 minute mark) he can just take a large ball of MM with stim and combat shields and deny any expansions.
He tried the 5m with scv bunker contain to take my natural. I blocked it with fast lings. At around 10 he tried to push out but retreated when i had speed banes, by 15 mins I had 4 bases including the gold, and when he finally felt confident enough to push out I had broodlords. Any zerg worth a dam can easily have infestor + speed banes at the 8-10 min mark and you cant just take out a large ball of MM to deny expansion, they will get crushed.
A tank push on 2 base is so much more deadly than this build. You get the tanks faster if you dont build 4 OC's.
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This seems interesting. You can also scan like hell and the. Your opponent is f'd.
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Grannock,
Did you 14 Hatch then pool in that game?
If you have a large force of infestors + speed banelings at the 8-10 minute mark you probably didn't take your 3rd before 10 minutes. To be honest I'm not even sure how you are able to muster a sizeable force of infestors + banelings at 8minutes. Eco-baneling busts are typically timed at 8 minutes. So the fact that you have sizable force of infestors + banelings at 8 minutes seems... impossible lol.
Even if you did go for that bling/infestor combo, you probably have only 2 bases with relatively low saturation. There would have been no need to try and deny the 3rd. The natural response to baneling/infestor would be for Terran to take his 3rd earlier (at around 12-13 minutes) using a CC->PF while teching to tanks (because you had no mutas, he would have been able to save on turret money for that fast CC).
The first tank + MM push should come at the latest, around 15 minutes with 1/1 on infantry, and at least 1/0 or 1/1 on tanks.
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Just played against this and it seems pretty broken. I was playing 3 vs 2 base ZvT and was being outmined by 1K+ the entire time. I don't really see a reason to ladder until this is patched to be honest.
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He's got the same number of bases if you count his 4 ocs as 4x5 temporary scvs, unless you had another base on him...but you may not be at 24x3 drones though...
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I've been playing around with this build TvZ and I have to say I really love it. Thanks for posting! I had been doing a 3 in base OC strat before I read this thread that I had just kinda come up with fooling around and I liked it but it wasn't as refined as this build and didn't include the early 2 rax pressure. This build also seems to force me to macro harder which is always a good thing, and my APM when using this build is significantly higher, so at the very worst it's a good build for practicing keyboard speed as you have to constantly calldown/produce mass rax units, etc...
In the handful of games I've used this build I've been able to easily stave off mid game mass muta and early roach pressure at the mid diamond level.
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On December 27 2010 15:09 Griffith` wrote:
Grannock,
Did you 14 Hatch then pool in that game?
I have been strictly going 11 pool 18 hatch because when people try to do a 5 marine pressure i destroy it and then am ahead. I did not think that 11 pool would be suitable on the upper diamond ladder, and boy was I wrong, its easily way better than 14 hatch 13 pool. The econ is relatively the same if you drone out, and if your being harassed, those 8 lings that much faster makes all the difference.
On December 27 2010 15:09 Griffith` wrote:
If you have a large force of infestors + speed banelings at the 8-10 minute mark you probably didn't take your 3rd before 10 minutes. To be honest I'm not even sure how you are able to muster a sizeable force of infestors + banelings at 8minutes. Eco-baneling busts are typically timed at 8 minutes. So the fact that you have sizable force of infestors + banelings at 8 minutes seems... impossible lol.
Even if you did go for that bling/infestor combo, you probably have only 2 bases with relatively low saturation. There would have been no need to try and deny the 3rd. The natural response to baneling/infestor would be for Terran to take his 3rd earlier (at around 12-13 minutes) using a CC->PF while teching to tanks (because you had no mutas, he would have been able to save on turret money for that fast CC).
The first tank + MM push should come at the latest, around 15 minutes with 1/1 on infantry, and at least 1/0 or 1/1 on tanks.
Its really easy to get an infestor + speed banes at 8 mins. Think about it. You can get this out faster than a muta. The thing about econ baneling busts is that your wasting a ton of banes, at least 6-10. Thats why these busts are aimed at 8 mins, cause u need the 6-10 banes to bust, and then a ton of troops to actually damage. If your just playing defensive you can get 6-10 banes, 20 lings, and an infestor. This will make anyone but the most insanely skilled micro terran unable to push without tanks. If they are going 4 CC they will not have enough tanks, will not have banshee, and will not be forcing the zerg to make mutas which is a huge resource sieve.
If they actually go banshee on 4 OC, I'd assume they are not going to early pressure with marines, and then the build is easily predicted and one can go muta/bane and hold them off the same way.
Just by making 2 banshee it forces the zerg to waste 700/700 at least on muta tech and 5 mutas. Thats so huge. Baneling speed, infestor nest, 1 infestor 10 banes, and like 20 + lings equivalent. And the later gets out quicker than 5 mutas.
The only build that seems to work very well against me, and I assume all zergs, (watch the GSL IMMVP KOTH) is the 2 base marine tank push that seems all but unbeatable. The only way I can hold these off is with extremely fast broodlords playing the same way I did against 4 OC. And without the 4 OC you may have less marines, but the push comes sooner and that timing is what is deadly, not extra marines.
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On December 27 2010 15:53 aquanda wrote:
Just played against this and it seems pretty broken. I was playing 3 vs 2 base ZvT and was being outmined by 1K+ the entire time. I don't really see a reason to ladder until this is patched to be honest.
I hope you are kidding men, wtf... You let build the terran 4 OC's and then you whine about it being broken? Yesterday I played against a zerg that made 4 hatches before 10:00 and I lost. I don't really see a reason to ladder until this is patched to be honest.
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Seriously......People are whining way to much. Ive done it plenty atimes (2600+ diamond). Most of the good zergs either super bust me or just mass mutas/blings/lings but usually more muta's.
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As per requests I have a few more 4OC builds uploaded for you guys vs zergs I play/practice with. They aren't the biggest players(i keep forgetting to save the 1s I do vs Rigid/other zergs).
Blade may not have played the best here due to him being gone for a week and a half.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121051-1v1-terran-zerg-metalopolis
This one was done vs a manager on my team, so not the best performance possible by Z.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/121053-1v1-terran-zerg-shakuras-plateau
I still believe a heavy bio play is the best option as u can apply pressure and other transitions may be too weak to support(due to attack timing coming so late and any good zerg will know how to stop it by the time the attack comes)
EDIT:
Addressing some of the issues people are having about the build(saying its OP and such). ANY GOOD ZERG PLAYER WILL COUNTER THIS EASILY IF THEY CAN SCOUT 4 OC's!
If u look closely in both my games I just put up, I let the zerg scout me in the 2nd 1 and he reacted to it correctly to beat me in the macro game(but due to him being not the best player) I was still able to out macro him and win in the end. In the first 1, Blade was unable to scout me and reacted thinking it was just a standard 2rax into expo and paid the price that was similar to what happened in the EGstrifecro game of the SCL finals.
The idea is that it's supposed to surprise them when they finally do see it and by then their window of opportunity to crush u(7-10 min mark) is usually gone. Honestly u can compare this build to any kind of tech path with DT's probably being the best example. DT tech utterly fails if u can scout the dark shrine warping when its less then 50% complete. But in this case, what u scout is a massive risk the T is taking by dropping 4OC's and preparing for a insane macro game.
Anything can be stopped just by scouting and preparing for it properly.
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I usually scan the zerg at around 6 minutes (right before the 4th OC goes up to get a sense of what he's doing.) If I see a low drone count i bunker up asap and do the bunker trick (1-2 marines in each bunker, or full bunker and micro marines out once banelings come knocking) and spread out the remaining marines into singletons.
How easily do you think the build is scouted? I often shift-P to queue 3-4 patrolling marines to make it really hard for an overlord to scout the OCs between 7-9 minutes.
PS. Incorporated replays into OP
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Do you make scvs from the command centers you build? or use them exclusively for mules?
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On December 30 2010 14:32 berimbau wrote:
Do you make scvs from the command centers you build? or use them exclusively for mules?
Yes, until you have around 60 SCVs (24+6 per base).
Wiki has been updated again with more info on late-game play. PFs are sooooo good.
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EPT
