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im a 3k terran having moderate success with this build
my biggest problem is securing the natural on wide maps like xel naga and metalopolis. good zergs seem to either prevent me from doing so by hitting me right as my cc lands with mass slings/blings and because i just spent 2k on the OCs my army just isnt big enough to hold it off...
any suggestions? i'm thinking of either
1) taking my natural later, since 4 mules on one base still gives very good income. wait until i have tanks before taking it.
2) use my existing OCs to wall off. what could be bad about letting the zerg see the OCs? if you see he double expands cant you just push out at about 120~ food to deny his 3rd and 4th?
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1) Scan at 6 minutes to figure out if he's going eco sling bling (low drone count, no lair, etc.) If he is, delay your 4th CC and goto step two. Scout again at around 7 minutes to determine ling/bling count. you NEED to triple bunker (PROPER SIMCITY, make bunkers so they are touching the natural's CC. ie. they can't touch your expo CC without getting hit by bunkers, and never make two bunkers touch one another (so baneling building splash can't take out two bunkers at once).
2) Put a bunker first right below your ramp first so you can use your ramp marines to defend the bunker while its building. Once that bunker goes up, then you can make 2 raxes right next to it. to begin your wall-off. Once you have the 2 raxes + bunker done, you should be able to secure your CC
3) Using OCs to wall-off can be dangerous if he decides to add roaches, as you wont be able to fire back.
Anyways, more info here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Griffith_4OC_(vs._Zerg)
(You are probably most interested in the 2 hatch baneling bust section)
Remember, this build takes a ton of practice, but in nearly all instances, the more you practice, the better you do, the sky really is the limit. Where as with something like 2 thor push, there is only so much you can do until practice fails to yield any additional dividends.
It's actually ok to do the 3OC version if zerg eco baneling busts you because he's committing so much of his economy to try and hurt you.
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On December 27 2010 08:46 Griffith` wrote:
You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose.
That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it.
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On December 31 2010 06:22 pwadoc wrote:
That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it.
Please explain how using 2 orbital commands on 2 bases is ok but using 4 orbital commands on 2 bases is "abusive and game-breaking in the extreme" because it sounds like you are just raging against mules in general. Write some emails to blizzard about capping the number of available mules if you have a problem with people using 4 OCs. Be sure to include your RTS game design resume so they know that you know your shit. Who knows, maybe they might offer you a job to help design the expansions.
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The best way to bring a build to blizzard's attention is to make it popular.
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On December 31 2010 06:22 pwadoc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 27 2010 08:46 Griffith` wrote:
You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose. That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it.
No I don't think its bullshit. With most TvZ builds, in almost every mid-game TvZ, Terran is behind in income against the Zerg, this build only serves to close the income disparity towards Terran's favor. I don't see how in the slightest it is "abusive" and "game-breaking". Oh boohoo, terrans now all of a sudden have viable mid-game! QQ
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On December 31 2010 07:49 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 06:22 pwadoc wrote:On December 27 2010 08:46 Griffith` wrote:
You could say the same about zerg being to double the production of each hatchery with inject.
"Agreed, Blizzard made inject so Zerg could catch up to Terran in production in early game and when they're ahead, along with toss chronoboost. If zerg mass expands, this use of inject is surely just taking advantage of something to aid you."
anyways, this thread is NOT a discussion on MULE balance. Please use the other 50+ threads created for this purpose. That's bullshit dude, and you know it. You are advocating and publicizing a build that is abusive and game-breaking in the extreme. You should be bringing this to the attention of blizzard, not telling everyone to use it. No I don't think its bullshit. With most TvZ builds, in almost every mid-game TvZ, Terran is behind in income against the Zerg, this build only serves to close the income disparity towards Terran's favor. I don't see how in the slightest it is "abusive" and "game-breaking". Oh boohoo, terrans now all of a sudden have viable mid-game! QQ
You always had a midgame. You are overpowered in the midgame. You're abusing the fact that mules can oversaturate a mineral patch. It should be patched out of the game, because it's obviously a bug. You're abusing a bug, and designed an entire build around it.
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I'm pretty sure mules being able to oversaturate a mineral patch is there by design, else MULEs will have no utility in a saturated base. I think you jump to conclusions far too quickly. 4OC is not an I-win build, there is so much execution-dependence that player skill plays a huge role in its success.
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Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
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Griffith you got any links to some of your better T v Z replays?
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On December 31 2010 08:19 SecretA5DC wrote:
Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
i'd love to know if there's another way, but i just hotkey them all together =)
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On December 31 2010 08:19 SecretA5DC wrote:
Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base?
Pretty sure you just have to hotkey them together, no other trick to it. As for the positioning, I'd assume you'd want to keep your extras hidden for as long as possible, so at least until you get all 4 scouted you should keep your extra 2 in your main. After they've been scouted I suppose you can put them wherever you want them, possibly as part of a wall-off if needed. Just make sure they're well protected because losing them wouldn't be a great idea.
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On December 30 2010 17:47 Griffith` wrote:1) Scan at 6 minutes to figure out if he's going eco sling bling (low drone count, no lair, etc.) If he is, delay your 4th CC and goto step two. Scout again at around 7 minutes to determine ling/bling count. you NEED to triple bunker (PROPER SIMCITY, make bunkers so they are touching the natural's CC. ie. they can't touch your expo CC without getting hit by bunkers, and never make two bunkers touch one another (so baneling building splash can't take out two bunkers at once). 2) Put a bunker first right below your ramp first so you can use your ramp marines to defend the bunker while its building. Once that bunker goes up, then you can make 2 raxes right next to it. to begin your wall-off. Once you have the 2 raxes + bunker done, you should be able to secure your CC 3) Using OCs to wall-off can be dangerous if he decides to add roaches, as you wont be able to fire back. Anyways, more info here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Griffith_4OC_(vs._Zerg)(You are probably most interested in the 2 hatch baneling bust section) Remember, this build takes a ton of practice, but in nearly all instances, the more you practice, the better you do, the sky really is the limit. Where as with something like 2 thor push, there is only so much you can do until practice fails to yield any additional dividends. It's actually ok to do the 3OC version if zerg eco baneling busts you because he's committing so much of his economy to try and hurt you.
econ sling bling varys, the recently more popular econ sling bling is 40~ workers, lair tech, bling spd--gg ur opponent or tech mutas if needed. Incorporate siege tech into this build to make it more viable. If you can hide the tech, the build is great, however, if any competent zerg spots it, its very easy to punish.
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On December 31 2010 08:28 dslyecix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 08:19 SecretA5DC wrote:
Just two quick questions, what's the command to select all your OC's at once? and how do you position your OCs once you're finished with all 4? Do you put 3 in your base and 1 in the natural? or 2 at each base? Pretty sure you just have to hotkey them together, no other trick to it. As for the positioning, I'd assume you'd want to keep your extras hidden for as long as possible, so at least until you get all 4 scouted you should keep your extra 2 in your main. After they've been scouted I suppose you can put them wherever you want them, possibly as part of a wall-off if needed. Just make sure they're well protected because losing them wouldn't be a great idea.
What do you mean by Hotkeying them together? So I ctrl-1 one OC, and then select another OC and press ctrl-1?
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The way I been doing it is just selecting CC's near each other and then hotkeying them, I thought there was another way to select CC's that are out of your screen range.
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To SecretA5DC
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles.
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No I don't think its bullshit. With most TvZ builds, in almost every mid-game TvZ, Terran is behind in income against the Zerg, this build only serves to close the income disparity towards Terran's favor. I don't see how in the slightest it is "abusive" and "game-breaking". Oh boohoo, terrans now all of a sudden have viable mid-game! QQ
Terrans have always had a viable mid game just watch Jinro play. Zerg needs the additional income because their units are very cost inafective compared to terrans. A zerg on 3 bases is about equal to a terran on 2 bases, because of our units. By exploiting the fact that you can over saturate your mineral patches by building extra orbital commands seemes to me to be cheezy. I do hope they nurf orbital commands because they cause way to many problems for the other races, especially in the late game.
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On December 31 2010 08:49 Griffith` wrote:
To SecretA5DC
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles.
I haven't had too much success getting to late game on the Korean servers. On the NA servers, 90% of the time, Zerg players go FE with either Pool first or Hatch first. But on KR there's a lot more Zerg all in and/or cheeses and they usually try to go for a bling bust or RR off one base which throws me off my game.
But whenever I do get to late game, the Mules def help keep me in contention. I just need to work on Marine micro more.
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On December 31 2010 11:10 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 08:49 Griffith` wrote:
To SecretA5DC
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles. I haven't had too much success getting to late game on the Korean servers. On the NA servers, 90% of the time, Zerg players go FE with either Pool first or Hatch first. But on KR there's a lot more Zerg all in and/or cheeses and they usually try to go for a bling bust or RR off one base which throws me off my game. But whenever I do get to late game, the Mules def help keep me in contention. I just need to work on Marine micro more.
Wow, you have a RoK account. I wish I did to test openings. If you can reliably execute a macro opening that survives on RoK, you'd be some sort of hero. Reps for the 4 Orb and 2 rax expos versus heavy aggression would be quite useful.
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On December 31 2010 11:10 SecretA5DC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2010 08:49 Griffith` wrote:
To SecretA5DC
I have a lot more replays - but I'm away from my gaming rig for the duration of christmas, so I can't access them. The OP has plenty of replays though from my friends. I'll post more when I get back.
PS. Have you tried it at all on the korean ladder?
For the scouting topic, its fairly dependent on scouting from both parties. IE. how well Terran can scout the sling/bling timing, and how well Zerg can find a way for his ovie. Remember, 2 rax pressure can pump out a lot of marines, and setting 3-4 to patrol the edges of your base can make it very difficult to scout for Zerg. Thing, lair tech eco sling/bling delays it considerably, centrifugal hooks take 2 minutes to research, lair takes 1 minute and 20 seconds. Meaning you'll be delaying the standard eco-baneling push by around 3 minutes and 20 seconds - you'll be venturing into the 10+ minute range for a baneling bust. By this point, Terran will be on 7-8 raxes + facts, and will have stim/combat-shields ready.
Thing is though , the build forces zerg unit-production by means of economy (ie. if you don't pressure T in the 8-9 minute window, mid-game will be hard), as opposed to by means of aggressive unit production (where T needs to pressure Z in the 8-9 minute window, else mid-game will be hard). It's essentially, a reversal of roles. I haven't had too much success getting to late game on the Korean servers. On the NA servers, 90% of the time, Zerg players go FE with either Pool first or Hatch first. But on KR there's a lot more Zerg all in and/or cheeses and they usually try to go for a bling bust or RR off one base which throws me off my game. But whenever I do get to late game, the Mules def help keep me in contention. I just need to work on Marine micro more.
Hm interesting, I actually dont have problem with 1base zerg, as 2 bunkers at ramp holds off 99% of cheeses they can do off 1-base play. I'm surprised by the Korean zergs then. You don't even have to 4OC to beat 1-base those kinda plays, just standard 2 rax FE, or even 3OC will give you a big enough of an economic advantage to plow through mid-game.
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EPT
