On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
On December 11 2010 15:48 Conrose wrote: It's interesting in that replay when you look at the various resource related tabs.
For Units Lost, he's losing significantly less resource wise than the Zerg player was. When you look at the income tab, he was maintaining on par mineral income with the zerg player the majority of the game while using one of the OCs for frequent scans.
And then what I think was the biggest deal was the Spending tab... for most of the match, he was actually spending less (But not significantly so) on his army starting at the moment he begins his first push, he spent significantly less on economy, and absolutely blew away the technology spending at a 3 to 1 ratio.
Well when I first found out about this build it was through a friend and not actually this thread specifically, so all I had to work with was 4OC opener and then transition to bio.
What I decided to do was focus the game around upgrades and teching slower to medivacs and tanks.
I'm pretty sure other transitions could work depending on each players playstyle.
On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
That's really disappointing. I was hoping that this build would give me a style that wouldn't require marine splitting to deal with banelings, since I'm not fast enough to make that work. I guess marine splitting is something you just have to learn to play TvZ at all now?
On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
That's really disappointing. I was hoping that this build would give me a style that wouldn't require marine splitting to deal with banelings, since I'm not fast enough to make that work. I guess marine splitting is something you just have to learn to play TvZ at all now?
You're telling me, I'm physically incapable of the level of APM required to make marines trade favorably vs Banelings (moderate nerve damage to the hands some decade ago), so I don't think I'll ever really get to enjoy this build in any real sense.
On December 11 2010 16:37 Matrijs wrote: I don't know if anybody else is having this problem, but I just don't think the MMM followup works at even low level diamond (which is where I am). The Zerg player can just go mass speedling/baneling and crush your infantry army, no matter how big it is.
Rather than losing games where I just get overwhelmed by superior macro, I'm now losing games where I out-spend and out-harvest my opponent but still lose because banelings crush infantry so hard.
Any suggestions? Should I just switch to the mech followup?
Watch the replay by NGry, he uses almost exclusive marines until the 14 minute mark where he begins tank production. Banelings are not that cost efficient against marines if you have good splitting skills (albeit this is often only found at the high diamond levels).
That's really disappointing. I was hoping that this build would give me a style that wouldn't require marine splitting to deal with banelings, since I'm not fast enough to make that work. I guess marine splitting is something you just have to learn to play TvZ at all now?
You guys are thinking about this all wrong.
The reason why this build is so effective is that zerg usually wants to trade armies under the assumption they can rebuild and replenish more quickly than terran can. This build reverses those roles. Look to use multiple drops to draw the attention and army away from the Zerg and then push with your main army. Even if you exchange armies, your 10 barracks queued full of untis will replenish quickly enough to put you back to even and since his economy is most likely disrupted, he will not be able to come back.
I mean seriously guys, I go MMMTank off 8rax/1starport/1factory, throw down another factory and 4 rax when I hit 200/200 and I literally 1a zergs.
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
If you would like, I have more replays of it vs other top tier players per request.
I am very interested in seeing more replays.
You can probably make the rines split better by having ~30 split over 5-6 hotkeys ( do this before leaving your base ) and just press 1 2 3 4 5 6 to where you want them ( and stim them of course ) probably easier than doing it as the moment comes
It's somewhat interesting to see how he didn't do anything about the 5 marines+2medivacs in his base for at least 60+seconds those 5 rines probably did more damage than the other ground forces combined... even though he could've done much more and with less mistakes, he still manages to beat him...
He does have ~600 energy over 4 Orbitals at several points in the game though... seems like he could've won at an earlier point in time
Starting level 2 upgrades could've been done a bit earlier ( there's at least ~30 seconds after the 1/1 is done )
On December 11 2010 14:15 NGry wrote: I believe that the 4 OC build is most viable with a transition into bio and slow teching your way to medivacs and tanks. The emphasis is put on massing marines and maintaining efficient production.
The biggest problem with the build is what can happen early game as u r dropping 4OC. The biggest weak point is WHEN to drop your 4th OC. If u r expecting pressure it is safer to drop a bunker or 2 and 2 extra rax to assist the initial 2 before starting your 4th OC. This will hold most early Z aggression.
After that the idea(at least from my perspective) is to be able to match or have even stronger production then the Z while attempting to keep him on 3 base.
If you would like, I have more replays of it vs other top tier players per request.
I am very interested in seeing more replays.
You can probably make the rines split better by having ~30 split over 5-6 hotkeys ( do this before leaving your base ) and just press 1 2 3 4 5 6 to where you want them ( and stim them of course ) probably easier than doing it as the moment comes
It's somewhat interesting to see how he didn't do anything about the 5 marines+2medivacs in his base for at least 60+seconds those 5 rines probably did more damage than the other ground forces combined... even though he could've done much more and with less mistakes, he still manages to beat him...
He does have ~600 energy over 4 Orbitals at several points in the game though... seems like he could've won at an earlier point in time
Starting level 2 upgrades could've been done a bit earlier ( there's at least ~30 seconds after the 1/1 is done )
Hotkeying the marines into 5-6 hotkeys to micro banelings is probably not the best idea. I know there were errors during that game especially with upgrades( i think it was related to not grabbing my 4th geyser early enough) and the full energy over 4 OC was just a noob mistake :D
To people asking for more replays, I was practicing this build vs Rigid but I didn't save any of them so I lost it all in the folder due to playing a lot more games hahaha.
I'll post some more replays sometime within the week.
Here's a replay of a game I just played using this build. It goes further into the macro stages and more bases. I continue with just mass bio against banelings, lings, mutas, and ultralisks.
Another useful tip with splitting marines is try to practice it in the hard counter (custom map) there you can make a ball of lingbling run towards your marines and u can try and split them up to minimize damage.
tbh i´d be more interested in ways to avoid having the entire outcome of the match depending on my marine splitting skills instead of trying to improve on something that i know i will never be good at.... but maybe thats just because im a lazy, unskilled noob XD"
In that battle with the 3 ranks on the left side of the map in NGry's game, it might've been better if he just ran back a bit more the moment the banelings came. Not pulling all, but enough to allow for an extra volley from the tanks. Might give him a 10% more on surviving since that terrain is very narrow and doesn't allow for much room to do anything. This build is a bit more forgiving for the terran.
i have played this build in my last 5 TvZs and i really like it. I won 4 of them and the one i lost i fucked up. Very funny build even it wont last forever.
Just a question, what do you guys consider a good marine split?
When in position in a ball I was able to split so that 20 marines ended up winning against 20 speed banelings off creep...2 marines left, about the best I could manage regularly. Maybe 5 marines against non speed. As numbers get higher I could barely break even. This is when I know the banelings are coming.
In game of course sometimes I fumble, maybe 5 marines to 4 banelings is the ratio if I'm caught off guard on creep, which after all isn't so bad since mules more than make up for the minerals and he still loses on gas.
On December 13 2010 03:26 shadymmj wrote: Just a question, what do you guys consider a good marine split?
When in position in a ball I was able to split so that 20 marines ended up winning against 20 speed banelings off creep...2 marines left, about the best I could manage regularly. Maybe 5 marines against non speed. As numbers get higher I could barely break even. This is when I know the banelings are coming.
In game of course sometimes I fumble, maybe 5 marines to 4 banelings is the ratio if I'm caught off guard on creep, which after all isn't so bad since mules more than make up for the minerals and he still loses on gas.
its probably better to just have 2-3 tanks with u... even on a build with a really skewed mineral to gas mining rates like this one, u should have enough gas for some few tanks.
EPT
