EPTgz you just beat 6pool
[G] How To Stop A 6 Pool ZvP - Page 4
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eNbee
Belgium487 Posts
gz you just beat 6pool | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On September 24 2010 23:07 eNbee wrote: Abuse worker "passthrough" with mineral clicking to get an easy surround on the lings! gz you just beat 6pool what if he just keeps destroying your gateways and pylons untill he gets like 1 on 1 ling - probe ratio? | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
Yes, you'll take worker losses, with the number of losses depending on your micro. WIth really good micro, you might be able to lose as few as 2 or 3. But you will still be ahead, and he is absolutely crippled. You don't have to deviate from your build (you can if you scout it early enough, but you don't even have to scout it to be able to defend), you don't have to cut workers, you don't have to completely wall off your ramp. Not even on Steppes of War. All you have to do is kill the first 6 lings without losing so many workers that you have fewer left than the zerg does. After that, it's an easy win. I haven't been 6-pooled in ages, presumably because the 6 poolers simply can't hit 900-1000 diamond, or I'd post one of my own replays. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:25 Darthturtle wrote: You forget that an early pool doesn't just mean early lings. It also means early queen. Two rounds(a minute and twenty seconds) of larvae injected droning off one hatch is enough to catch up to the toss, and a toss that went forge/cannon is committed to sitting on his godawful infrastructure. Have you ever actually done a 6 pool? I mean, played zerg and 6pooled somebody? If you use all the available larvae for lings and overlords when 6 pooling, it takes about 15 and a half years of gametime to build up 150 minerals for the queen. You simply don't have enough workers bringing in minerals to do jack shit for a really long time. There is no way in hell the zerg is going to be able to afford to actually use those two rounds of injected larvae. | ||
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out4blood
United States313 Posts
On September 25 2010 01:41 Skrag wrote: Have you ever actually done a 6 pool? I mean, played zerg and 6pooled somebody? If you use all the available larvae for lings and overlords when 6 pooling, it takes about 15 and a half years of gametime to build up 150 minerals for the queen. You simply don't have enough workers bringing in minerals to do jack shit for a really long time. There is no way in hell the zerg is going to be able to afford to actually use those two rounds of injected larvae. Not to mention that you'd need to get more overlords. There's no way a deadwall loses to a failed 6-pool. You don't even need an expansion since you can just kill them off with 1-base stargate play. | ||
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me_viet
Australia1350 Posts
On September 24 2010 20:22 Darthturtle wrote: Go actually watch the replays. He can't scout because he locked himself into his base. He has no probe outside. He has no pylon outside. He's built his zealot INSIDE his wall. He has effectively contained himself. He doesn't have four gate. He doesn't even have two gate. He has one tremendously late gate, no core, no gas, and no infrastructure. He NEEDS to one base tech, then, and Zerg does exactly what zerg always does. Expand all over the map and them win with mass units. If the Protoss tries a 2 gate counterattack - You have the pool already. You can see him push out. Build a single spine crawler and you're defended. If the protoss tries 4 gate - This will be mildly threatening maybe 7 minutes down the line, due to the fact that he has no tech whatsoever. Build a second spine crawler and you're defended. As zerg, the two most important things to do are to drone and expand, whenever he gives you a chance. Throwing away 350 minerals, forcing himself into a defensive position, cutting two probes, these all scream please go macro and kill me. It doesn't matter that zerg is down seven drones. Protoss has NO way to exploit that early window, due to the fact that he's stuck with no tech. He cannot afford to break any building in his wall due to the threat of a runby that he can't scout because he's contained himself. One hatch, one queen is enough to catch up on drone production. Two hatches massdroning is enough to surpass and put yourself into a game-winning lead. This build is 100% against idiots who see a dead wall and a cannon and decide somehow, that they should break it. It's 0% against two-three base zerg, unless zerg makes a huge blunder like not scouting for a push. lol. Why do I get the feeling you are theorycrafting? So what your suggesting is. after being down ~14 probes vs 6-7. You want to somehow, drone up, get a queen as well as throw down an expansion? If anything, you'll have to first build an overlord before you can make that queen. Queens take another 50s. Your not even getting gas yet, because your drone saturation is so shit. Thus the threat of 'runby' is non-existent. Zerglings are only SLIGHTLY faster than probes pre-speed. You don't realise that 6-pool sacrifices ECON as well as TECH, due to much later gas. All the while a toss can do a +1attack 3gate push down the road. That would be the obvious thing to do. You want to throw up spines on your already crippled economy. If the Toss throws down another gateway asap, and produce zealots from both gates chrono'd or not. He WILL be able to run you over unless you've been making non-stop lings.... No, a 6-pool is very much an all-in. There is no way you can catch up in tech or econ unless they make some major mistakes. Why don't you try playing vs OP? You 6-pool, he'll do a full wall-off. Then you try win from there. Also, there's no reason OP can't have a probe scouting outside. Chances are, OP's scouting probes would still be alive until the 4th pair of lings pop out or when the initial 3 pairs come back to hunt it down. But once again, lings are only SLIGHTLY faster than probes pre-speed. | ||
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lickinganoose
Canada18 Posts
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Goobus
Hong Kong587 Posts
When he did this forge build, however, he either 2 gated me or 3 warpgate pushed me a few minutes later and rolled me while I was still trying to saturate my main... Having done the 6-pool so many times in a practice game against P, this is the only reliable way to stop a 6-pool and still be miles ahead in econ. I don't believe your probe micro is so good that you will only lose 2 probes. You will most like lose a lot more -- you seem to forget that the zerg player can micro too. The Zerg player simply doesn't have the resources to capitalize on the "god awful infrastructure" of this build. He gets his overlord at 12, and only has 7 drones until 12-15 food, depending on when he decided to stop ling production. 7 drones is how many drones you have 20 seconds into the game, and this is at ~2 minutes. He won't be able to get any gas until much later, much less an expansion (queen + drones will take up all resources). If he wants to survive the impending push, he'll also have to get spines, more queens, and more lings. How the hell is he supposed get that money in time? By then the toss has blown way past him. I don't think even a spine can hold down a 2 gate push ~1-2 minutes after that. If the Zerg doesn't produce constant drones until he's caught up, he's pretty much dead. Producing more lings to stop the push or do a "runby," as you say, is out of the question. EDIT: I just read one of the posts above about 1 base stargate play. That is actually an excellent point. You don't even need to destroy your own wall to beat the Zerg. There's a reason pros gg as soon as their 6 pool fails. It's impossible to recover from. That is the reason I posted this build -- it is the only way to reliably hold against a 6 pool without taking a ton of damage. RELIABLY. This build works 100% of the time, and you only do it after you scout. | ||
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Merlinius
62 Posts
Unfortunately my micro isn't that great but I came up with the exact same build and building positioning from the OP and was able to fend off the rush every time and win lateron. (i.e. 9 pylon -> scout -> upon seeing the 6 pool I cancel probe 12 and throw down forge + gateway at the choke immediately, then continue with probes and throw down the cannon as soon as the forge is finished). One time I went for fast void rays afterwards, another time for a 3- or 4-gate push, and a third time I teched to fast colossus, and I won every game - even though he is a much better player than me but his economy was really hurt too much. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 25 2010 05:13 Goobus wrote: I'm not the toss player, Fingo is. But yeah, we did play a ton of games where he did this build against 6-pool, and I was able to win every time he went 12 gate simply because I was able to inflict enough damage to his probes that we were even. Then either his initial timings or off, or he doesn't know how to fight zerglings with probes. Yes, the zerg player can micro too, but the number of probes you have when lings get to your base are definitely enough to end up ahead. And if he's bringing workers in addition to the lings, then rather than fighting, you can delay while waiting for your zealot, it should be all that long, and since he doesn't have mining workers, the fact that your workers aren't mining is much less of an issue. Post some of the replays where you kill him with a 6pool. I agree with everything else you said though. There's no way in hell the zerg is ever going to catch up, so if you do wall-off, you're going to win, period. I just vehemently disagree that cutting probes and walling off is the only way to reliably stop it. Using your workers to kill the lings, or stalling for a zealot, are just as reliable *as long as you know what to do and don't screw it up*, and has the advantage of not actually requiring you to see the six pool. Yes, people do six pool on maps with 4 starting spots. I don't know why, but they do. And if they get lucky and find you on their first try, you're going to have all the same problems all over again, if you haven't figured out how to stop it without walling off. | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
On September 25 2010 01:41 Skrag wrote: Have you ever actually done a 6 pool? I mean, played zerg and 6pooled somebody? If you use all the available larvae for lings and overlords when 6 pooling, it takes about 15 and a half years of gametime to build up 150 minerals for the queen. You simply don't have enough workers bringing in minerals to do jack shit for a really long time. There is no way in hell the zerg is going to be able to afford to actually use those two rounds of injected larvae. Absolutely wrong. You don't have minerals for drones and OLs if you're spamming lings. You start droning the moment you see the deadwall. By the time the 6 lings reaches his base, you're at 10/18, 250 minerals. Drone thrice, queen as soon as possible, then drone. By ~4:20, your queen is out and you're already looking to take the expo. This is about 20/26. After the initial 6 lings, you're not making more lings. You have plenty of money. | ||
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Dauntless
Norway548 Posts
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
On September 25 2010 10:32 Dauntless wrote: As asked earlier; 6-pool on 4-player map where you scout the wrong direction. What do? I find it nearly unstoppable. Chrono zealot, defend with probes, get an open wall at your ramp. | ||
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kef
283 Posts
edit: i play zerg but don't like the odds that 6pool gives | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
On September 25 2010 11:17 kef wrote: Just an idea: with a deadwall couldn't you just fast tech to stargate? With good macro on both sides I still don't see how zerg could really catch up quickly enough AND throw down ample defenses, or be able to scout what your doing in time, be it stargate or fast collosi or dt's or whatever you feel like throwing at them edit: i play zerg but don't like the odds that 6pool gives With the forge/cannon/gateway wall, core comes tremendously late. Which means stargate comes late. Hell, I didn't even see a gas go down in the uploaded replay. Essentially, tech timings are roughly equivalent to standard play if the P tries to tech and the Z tries to drone up. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
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Lobotomist
United States1541 Posts
Scouting a deadwall is a perfect chance to drone up and expo fast. With early lings, you can stop a one-gate zealot counter and easily catch up and surpass the one-base toss. Especially since he wasted 350 on cannon/forge, and took an extremely late gate(two and a half minutes into the game, are you serious?). Even macroing back up from six-pool, six-eight lings is easy, since you have queens, and the toss just cut a ton of stuff. The forge isn't really wasted though. He can start +1 attack once gas is up, and ALREADY has a bunch more workers than you. As a zerg player, this seems pretty strong. I haven't watched the reps yet, but it seems like, if he scouts your 6-pool and you can't do eco damage, you're waaaaay behind, even against a protoss who's gone early cannon-forge. | ||
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misaTO
Argentina204 Posts
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
On September 25 2010 11:53 Lobotomist wrote: The forge isn't really wasted though. He can start +1 attack once gas is up, and ALREADY has a bunch more workers than you. As a zerg player, this seems pretty strong. I haven't watched the reps yet, but it seems like, if he scouts your 6-pool and you can't do eco damage, you're waaaaay behind, even against a protoss who's gone early cannon-forge. Until he actually has the gas, it's still wasted. It's like having an extra base but nobody mining there. In this case, Protoss, who currently has no core, no gas, and one gateway, has to get the assimilator, get the 100 gas, begin +1, chrono +1, get another gateway, mass zealots, push for a +1 timing attack, and hope to god that somewhere along the way, zerg didn't get some roaches because if he did, the push is boned. To misaTO's question, you need to send the drones real early to block the wall. Then you need to keep blocking for a really long time. Then you have to deal with the fact that your lings will be somewhat late, due to less workers mining. | ||
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