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johanngrunt
Hong Kong1555 Posts
On September 25 2010 12:01 misaTO wrote: What happens if the zerg actually goes 6pool but sens his drones earlier to prevent the wall? Has been discussed on page 2 i think. | ||
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Merlinius
62 Posts
Think about the alternative. We defend with our workers which costs lots of mining time and loses us 3-4 workers maybe. And if we misclick, it might lose us the game. Keeping those workers, and having them mine continuously has lots of value, too. The forge is not completely wasted as we can get +1 attack at some point. | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
On September 25 2010 21:51 Merlinius wrote: You have to take into account the losses we would suffer when defending with workers. That's why the forge play doesn't hurt our economy all that much. We throw down forge and gateway immediately, so the gateway isn't even delayed. And we can take a regular fast gas because we know we won't need many zealots to fend off the rush, once the wall is intact. We have to cut 1-2 workers maybe and then we can go on with our chosen tech. Think about the alternative. We defend with our workers which costs lots of mining time and loses us 3-4 workers maybe. And if we misclick, it might lose us the game. Keeping those workers, and having them mine continuously has lots of value, too. The forge is not completely wasted as we can get +1 attack at some point. Wrong and wrong. Think just for one second, about how much money forge and cannon costs. 350 minerals. Now, in a standard game, at what point would we have 350 spare minerals to throw into unnecessary tech? Certainly not in the opening. You're busy getting your second gateway, or your gas and core. Essential tech for solid play. Then the question becomes: How is it that in this particular build, you do happen to have 350 extra minerals to waste? Does that make it a sub-optimal opening? Is cutting and not losing probes any different from not cutting probes but maybe losing a few if you have bad control? And always keep in mind that the zerg has options, whereas you have dedicated yourself to one specific semi-allin gamble. In this forge-first opener, you're relying on the 6pooler to lose zerglings, continue to make more zerglings, and keep losing them until you can mass zealots and counter. Remember that your gate starts late at ~2:30. It completes at ~3:30. The zerg that starts power droning is expanding at ~4:20. You have, at most, two zealots(one barely out of your gateway) to try to sneak past six zerglings and his queen and try to do some damage. Can you do it? You are basically completely incapable of punishing him for his early bad economy, and he's catching up on workers fast, with his queen. As I said before, getting the early forge is useless until you have the gas to get +1. Nobody makes an early nexus at their fourth because they 'expect' to use it some time in the lategame. Nobody builds eight gates and two robos on one base because they'll be able to run it all when they expand later. Same for the forge. If you build it, and don't even have an assimilator, then you can't argue that you're getting +1 eventually, so it's okay. | ||
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cyrusdm
Canada55 Posts
On September 25 2010 22:19 Darthturtle wrote: Is cutting and not losing probes any different from not cutting probes but maybe losing a few if you have bad control? EXACTLY! Yes. So like I've been saying, and I'm glad there are other people out there with common sense, the best response to a 6 pool is to NOT cut probes. Do your normal build, working toward a partial block and that first blocking zealot....until then use your probes where needed to deal with the zerglings. How you use those probes depends on what the 6 pooler is doing with his lings. * If he's invading your mineral line escape to open space and work for the surround...these are not speedlings - you can surround. 2 control groups of rougly equal probe #'s are optimal. * If he's trying to knock down your pylon supporting your gate(s) u can either attack with all probes and try to finish him here (he wont get the pylon down in time if he sticks with it..and he wont win a straight up fight with your probes (12-14 on 6). Another option is to pull half of your probes and attack his lings...if he stops attacking the pylon and goes for you bait him away from the pylon and make him chase you. Dont engage...when he gives up the chase and goes back to the pylon be right on his tail attacking again. He wont get the pylon down if you are good enough and he might not even kill a probe. Plus this buys time for that first zealot. When its all said and done, either option has you're normal (flexible!) infastructure up AND you'll have more probes than he does drones. GG . | ||
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freshjive
United States32 Posts
The beauty of T v P is the zergling do so little dmg to the buildings that you wont loose very much of the shield at all. Plus you can still pick off a zerg or 2 and forge them out. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
It sounds counter-intuitive, but it does the job. 7 pool 8 OV The pool, OV, and larva all pop at the perfect time to make 6 lings 2 more drones, queen, expo at 300 minerals while the lings are off fighting the good fight. Whatever the protoss player does ends up in either a super defensive position, or an economy far enough behind that his 4-gate will be very late. Its worked for the past week at least. | ||
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Merlinius
62 Posts
On September 25 2010 22:19 Darthturtle wrote: Wrong and wrong. Think just for one second, about how much money forge and cannon costs. 350 minerals. Now, in a standard game, at what point would we have 350 spare minerals to throw into unnecessary tech? Certainly not in the opening. You're busy getting your second gateway, or your gas and core. Essential tech for solid play. Then the question becomes: How is it that in this particular build, you do happen to have 350 extra minerals to waste? Does that make it a sub-optimal opening? Is cutting and not losing probes any different from not cutting probes but maybe losing a few if you have bad control? And always keep in mind that the zerg has options, whereas you have dedicated yourself to one specific semi-allin gamble. In this forge-first opener, you're relying on the 6pooler to lose zerglings, continue to make more zerglings, and keep losing them until you can mass zealots and counter. Remember that your gate starts late at ~2:30. It completes at ~3:30. The zerg that starts power droning is expanding at ~4:20. You have, at most, two zealots(one barely out of your gateway) to try to sneak past six zerglings and his queen and try to do some damage. Can you do it? You are basically completely incapable of punishing him for his early bad economy, and he's catching up on workers fast, with his queen. As I said before, getting the early forge is useless until you have the gas to get +1. Nobody makes an early nexus at their fourth because they 'expect' to use it some time in the lategame. Nobody builds eight gates and two robos on one base because they'll be able to run it all when they expand later. Same for the forge. If you build it, and don't even have an assimilator, then you can't argue that you're getting +1 eventually, so it's okay. Forge + cannon is 300 minerals, not 350.Of course our tech is delayed. I never doubted that. But that goes for the zerg player as well. He has 6-8 idle lings at this point and needs to make an overlord before building any more drones. You're right, we can't just move out with our first two zealots. But as I said above, we can take gas immediately after placing the cannon, because we are safe for the moment. That's why I don't really understand your last paragraph. Of course you are right in saying this build might not be perfect and a well-executed probe defense might be better. But at least it's easy to execute, and you can't mess up the probe micro. In the my post I was just saying that losing 3-4 probes + mining time costs us economy and time as well, and we need to see that in relation to the 300 minerals for the cannon+forge. But I'd love to see some replays of successful 6 pool defenses on steppes of war (without placing a 10 gate). | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
Forge + cannon is 300 minerals, not 350. My mistake, although it doesn't make a substantial difference, as wasted minerals is wasted minerals. But that goes for the zerg player as well. He has 6-8 idle lings at this point and needs to make an overlord before building any more drones. Zerg tech isn't delayed at all. It's the worker count that's low. Zergs have 7 drones, six lings, and one overlord building by the time the lings reach the front. As soon as overlord completes, zerg is at ten drones and the queen is following immediately. You can't really call the lings idle when they're containing the Protoss from pushing out until he gets a bunch of zealots off his one gate. But as I said above, we can take gas immediately after placing the cannon, because we are safe for the moment. That's why I don't really understand your last paragraph. You don't have gas yet. It's like having a cybernetics core but no gas. Can you make stalkers? No. Can you get warp gates? No. Is it any good then? No. But at least it's easy to execute, and you can't mess up the probe micro. The tradeoff is that it costs you your initiative. Zerg basically did damage to you without even attacking yet. He did 300 mineral damage, and delayed your gateway, and forced you to cut, which is the same as losing, two probes. In the my post I was just saying that losing 3-4 probes + mining time costs us economy and time as well, and we need to see that in relation to the 300 minerals for the cannon+forge. First, a solid defense against 6pool loses no workers. Ever. Losing workers happens if your micro is bad. Which also means if your micro is good, you are in an even better position than our theoretical standard defense. Now, in addition to having more probes to begin with, standard play gets a gateway at normal timings, which means tech isn't delayed at all. Compare that to the zerg, who needs to drone up first before continuing to tech. You are ahead on both workers and tech, which is an easy win. Simply put, standard play is designed to cost you no time. You might lose a bit of mining, but who cares? You're not delaying core, you're not delaying gas. And last, but not least, we go to the root of the problem. This build itself. This build has one requirement, one teeny tiny kicker that it relies upon in order to work. It needs the opponent to do something. It needs the opponent to make a decision that is not only bad, but game-losingly bad. It needs the opponent to commit to breaking the front while under heavy cannon fire. The opponent needs to continue to flood lings, even though it damn well can't afford to do so. Because if the opponent doesn't, if he drones up immediately, then as I've explained multiple times, the protoss simply is not able to stop zerg from expanding and powerdroning. This build, this delay tech, cut probes build that is designed to stop an all-in, just looks completely awful compared to a standard defense, if the opponent decided not to attack. Put the two side by side, and you'll see the standard build pull so far ahead if the opponent decides to not go for it. The standard build is capable of defending and losing very little time in case of an all-in. It is optimal in the case of no all-in. The forge-first, cut probes build is questionable, even in the one situation we're trying to design it for, and winds up horribly lacking if that situation does not occur. That is the big problem with this build. How do you guarantee that your opponent will intentionally make an awful mistake that loses the game? | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 25 2010 10:45 Darthturtle wrote: Chrono zealot, defend with probes, get an open wall at your ramp. This. Exactly the same way you stop it on a two-player map. Seriously, there is no need to change your build, there is no need to completely wall off, there is no need to put up a forge and get cannons. If you can't beat 6 lings with 13-14 workers with minimal losses, then PRACTICE, because that's an easily winnable fight. You have the advantage of numbers, and you have the advantage of time, because you should have a zealot on the way. If the zerg can't kill enough probes before that zealot pops, then your probes + zealot will absolutely wipe the floor with little squished zergling bodies. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 25 2010 11:49 ibreakurface wrote: Awesome guide, I don't see why people are trying to slander it. Perhaps they don't understand how devastating a 6 pool on steppes is. Or perhaps all the people claiming 6pool on steppes is borderline imbalanced, and that you absolutely have to wall off + forge to defeat it, just need some practice. I'm not slandering the guide. I think walling off with a forge is not the most optimal way to beat a 6 pool, because you give the zerg a chance to get back into the game, but unless the zerg is a way better player than you, you're not going to lose with this build. You're just going to have 20-25 minute games where you should have been easily able to win in 8-10 minutes, as well as give yourself a chance to screw up in the later game, or get surprised by something you weren't expecting. | ||
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CanucksJC
Canada1241 Posts
I fucking hate 6 / 7 pool with a passion and a good portion of them are from them cheese. I feel like if I survive the early game I can win anyone at my skill level cuz I'm a macro type player. I'm considering thumbing down steppes of war instead of scrap station. Do you think that's a smart choice? | ||
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Darthturtle
United States718 Posts
On September 26 2010 11:57 CanucksJC wrote: So I have a question for you guys: I fucking hate 6 / 7 pool with a passion and a good portion of them are from them cheese. I feel like if I survive the early game I can win anyone at my skill level cuz I'm a macro type player. I'm considering thumbing down steppes of war instead of scrap station. Do you think that's a smart choice? I think if you play against a zerg, you should just tell them to 6pool you right away because that's the only way they'll win the game. Then watch them all try to 14 hatch and play long macro games. Personally, I wouldn't thumb down either map, because at most non-pro levels, it honestly won't matter all that much. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 26 2010 11:57 CanucksJC wrote: So I have a question for you guys: I fucking hate 6 / 7 pool with a passion and a good portion of them are from them cheese. I feel like if I survive the early game I can win anyone at my skill level cuz I'm a macro type player. I'm considering thumbing down steppes of war instead of scrap station. Do you think that's a smart choice? I love getting 6pooled, because unless I fuck up, I get fast easy wins. I like winning. I really like winning in <10 minutes. And I *LOOOOOOVE* beating people who cheese. I don't hate people who cheese, and occasionally even cheese myself, but for some reason it still gives me great, unbridled joy to beat them. Personally, I think it's silly to hate a strategy that leads to a large win percentage, so I wouldn't ever consider thumbing down steppes or scrap station for that reason. BTW, I would still really like the original poster to add some replays of the protoss losing to the 6pool in all the testing they did. I strongly suspect there will be a number of very simple things to point out where the protoss messed up. | ||
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Proto_Protoss
United States495 Posts
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Merlinius
62 Posts
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tGhOeOoDry
United States48 Posts
1) A replay where, instead of breaking down the wall, the zerg player uses his lings to contain and then tries to macro up. I have a strong suspicion that Darthturtle is underestimating the time it will take to macro up, but I don't actually know, and neither me nor my friends are diamond (mid-plat random here) so I can't test it myself. Goobus and Fingo have already shown a willingness to explore this situation. Perhaps they could explore this modification as well? 2) Could someone post a replay where their workers defeat a six pool with minimal casualties? Again, Goobus and Fingo maybe? I am imagining that, with good ling micro, focusing on taking down the Gateway pylon first, the lings will do more damage than simply killing two probes. Of course, I don't actually know. Theorycrafting is all well and good (see my handle, har har har), but the strong, uncompromising tone of some of these posts is just silly when no one has provided proof. Will a zerg who switches to a macro game win against this build? Are the people who say all you need is good probe micro blowing smoke? These are things we can prove. I say someone does it, then we discuss the results. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
edit: works nicely... thanks for sharing. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 26 2010 12:47 mlbrandow wrote: Would this stop a double 6pool too? Say on Monolith Ridge? Double 6 pool is pretty damn hard to stop with just about anything, and I *really* dislike walling completely off in a 2v2 because you've basically just said "hey, go kill my ally instead", and you can't ever send anything to help him. I'm pretty sure the best way to win against a double 6 pool is to have the person not being attacked go kill one of the zergs, which will be super-easy, and then outmacro the shit ouf of the remaining zerg, because the 6poolers can't both kill an enemy and save an ally. They have to choose one. If they choose to save, then you're still in the game and can rely on your ally to hold while you recover, and if they choose to kill you, your ally should be able to kill one fast, and the other eventually. | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
 Even our cheese is laughably easy to fight off. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 26 2010 13:11 Skrag wrote: Double 6 pool is pretty damn hard to stop with just about anything, and I *really* dislike walling completely off in a 2v2 because you've basically just said "hey, go kill my ally instead", and you can't ever send anything to help him. I'm pretty sure the best way to win against a double 6 pool is to have the person not being attacked go kill one of the zergs, which will be super-easy, and then outmacro the shit ouf of the remaining zerg, because the 6poolers can't both kill an enemy and save an ally. They have to choose one. If they choose to save, then you're still in the game and can rely on your ally to hold while you recover, and if they choose to kill you, your ally should be able to kill one fast, and the other eventually. i play TP and i usually wall, giving P the ability to wall in a zz game with 0 losses and barely shield drop on cannon is pretty nice. And if I see ZZ i just go 1/1/1 into banshees. | ||
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