|
Ok. We know it's an all in from zerg, but we still have to know what to do when we see it so you can 'quash the ling rush'.
I just tried this with my practice partner on steppes. He is diamond level and pretty much has lings in my mineral line at 3:00 into the game. Zealot is maybe half done if you did a 12 gate.
Your scout does not get to his base to discover the 6pool until you have pretty much queued up probe #11 and chrono your gw as part of a normal toss 12gate opening. So anything besides a 12 gate presumes early pool and you are modifying your standard 'just in case', which I do not like doing.
I was wrong. Blocking with 2 gates + probes does NOT work, they chew through the probes and then it's 1 zealot against 6 lings and you still have some time before your second zealot appears.
Blocking your mineral line using nearby gateways and pylons does NOT work. Maybe if you drop gates on 10 and 12 you can get your zealots out early enough and make it work, but then you are again presumining early pool and modifying your standard every time, which will hurt you if they don't early pool you. You need 4 pylons to plug the holes in the back of the mineral line, hard to do.
Building 2 gates and letting the zerglings into your base does NOT work, they just send in a second wave while you are running your probes around and you die. If someone thinks this works I want to see a replay. I couldn't get it to work. I challenge someone to lose less than 6 probes and post a replay doing this. Also, if he 7 pools he's better off economically and you still can't get your zealot in place to block.
Going for normal 12 gate and trying to to micro your probes and attack the lings does NOT work either. Same challenge, lose less than 6 probes and post a replay, I want to see how it's done.
2 things did work.
Forge/cannon, as per the OP
2 GW blocking + an additional pylon for 100% seal, and rally zealots outside your base, possibly re-seal with another pylon if necessary.
Anyway thats what I found with some testing, please do your own and verify or debunk.
|
@Nasdrova: If you want to, you could always not even bother walling off with probes and micro them. Hotkey half to 1 and the other half to 2. When they're in your mineral lines, attack move, then as soon as the first attack goes, move back, select 2 and attack move. vice versa.
It's an easier version of Huk's microed probes against a 7pool (It was in one of Day[9]'s casts, but holy crap, that guy just uses mouse drag move ... =X), but that works, if you can get skilled enough (and hence, why probably most pros don't even rush zerglings).
That aside, I did mention in my post, use up to 6 or even more probes to block because you are still economically ahead even if you take up to 8 probes off worker. As long as you choked it right, it should be 2 zerglings vs 2 probes fighting at any single time. 8 probes should hold it off with at most 5 dying. (I used to use 4 without micro, and it ends up with 3 to 2 lings dying. I let the rest into my mineral lines, because attack move with all those probes usually ends up with at most 1 probe dying. By then, the zealot should come out, and all you do is have that zealot start walling off.
|
On September 28 2010 06:32 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 08:20 Darthturtle wrote:On September 25 2010 01:41 Skrag wrote:On September 24 2010 12:25 Darthturtle wrote:
You forget that an early pool doesn't just mean early lings. It also means early queen. Two rounds(a minute and twenty seconds) of larvae injected droning off one hatch is enough to catch up to the toss, and a toss that went forge/cannon is committed to sitting on his godawful infrastructure. Have you ever actually done a 6 pool? I mean, played zerg and 6pooled somebody? If you use all the available larvae for lings and overlords when 6 pooling, it takes about 15 and a half years of gametime to build up 150 minerals for the queen. You simply don't have enough workers bringing in minerals to do jack shit for a really long time. There is no way in hell the zerg is going to be able to afford to actually use those two rounds of injected larvae. Absolutely wrong. You don't have minerals for drones and OLs if you're spamming lings. You start droning the moment you see the deadwall. By the time the 6 lings reaches his base, you're at 10/18, 250 minerals. Drone thrice, queen as soon as possible, then drone. By ~4:20, your queen is out and you're already looking to take the expo. This is about 20/26. After the initial 6 lings, you're not making more lings. You have plenty of money. Im confused here, you open up with a 6 pool then your at 10/18 (6 drones 6 lings and a drone building. You spend the next 150 on a queen and then you wait 50 secs for her to spawn while making more drones, (four roughly) and 100 on an OL then you spend the next 300 plus a drone making an expo while you vomit on your hatch. You then build 4 more drones wokring yourself up to 20/26, 2 from queen, 3 from lings, and 15 from drones. So basically you've spent 150m (queen) 450m (drones) 100m (overlord) 300m (hatch) To catch up to where your opponent was and your military consists of 6 lings. Meanwhile your protoss opponent. ( who has had a constant income of 2x as many minerals as you. Due to having 14 probes when you had 7 and 18 when you had 10) has made approximately 2000m worth of mineral income. Lets assume that they spent 150m on 2 assimilators, 150 on cy core, 300 on 2 more gates, 200 on a robo facility and 100 on weapons upgrades. That leaves 1100 minerals minus 300 for the probes for each gas and 700 for zealots. This is at the point where you are trying to build and saturate an expansion you dont need? I consistantly win games against FE zergs where their mineral score is around 18,050 and mine is 17,950. So suffice to say that second expansion isn't generating that much more income until it is fully saturated. Bottom line, the toss player has a bunch of zealots/stalkers sentries, and he builds an observer off of that robo and he sees you on 2 bases with 2 spinal crawlers and 12 lings he is going to pop that cannon and crush you. The strategy is called 6 pool all in for a reason. It is an all in strategy that makes the game nigh unwinable against anyone who is even close to your skill level if they quash the ling rush.
Watch the replays here. There's a good reason why the protoss in question can't do half of what you're describing.
Your tech is late as fuck. Your units are all locked on the wrong side of the wall-in. You can't scout.
The zerg's hatch timings are only somewhat different from normal zerg play, due to the fact that he's equalizing with the fast queen. The Protoss is nowhere close to being anywhere as threatening as you're trying to insinuate. One, he's not on two gates, one core. He's on one gate, no gas, no core.
If he throws down a gate immediately after walling, he has to cut two probes to get that out. If he doesn't cut, he's at fourteen(one building) probes to the zerg's ten(three building), and on one just started gate. That one gate doesn't even complete until ~3:30, and somehow, magically, he's supposed to whip out a 2 gate robo army with two gas and core already done and punish an undefended zerg expansion? Are you insane? Do you understand the concept of a build time?
As stated before, the Protoss that goes forge-first is relying on the zerg to waste all his minerals on constant zergling spam until he can push out with zealots. It's all in in this case. If the zerg chooses to not be a tremendous retard, hard as this may be to grasp, then the build is not all in.
A protoss with late tech, wasted minerals, and no map control, has very few ways to take the game back from a zerg that didn't insist on playing out a suicide all-in. After the forge-cannon build, I'd already say the zerg is ahead. The zerg only starts to fall behind when he insists on blasting out constant zerglings with no regard to drone production.
|
Let me get this straight. You want to counter a ling all-in with stalker/sentry.
Aha. Ahahah. Ahahahahahaha. AHahahahahahahahahaah.
|
|
|
On September 28 2010 08:20 ScythedBlade wrote:
@Nasdrova: If you want to, you could always not even bother walling off with probes and micro them. Hotkey half to 1 and the other half to 2. When they're in your mineral lines, attack move, then as soon as the first attack goes, move back, select 2 and attack move. vice versa.
It's an easier version of Huk's microed probes against a 7pool (It was in one of Day[9]'s casts, but holy crap, that guy just uses mouse drag move ... =X), but that works, if you can get skilled enough (and hence, why probably most pros don't even rush zerglings).
That aside, I did mention in my post, use up to 6 or even more probes to block because you are still economically ahead even if you take up to 8 probes off worker. As long as you choked it right, it should be 2 zerglings vs 2 probes fighting at any single time. 8 probes should hold it off with at most 5 dying. (I used to use 4 without micro, and it ends up with 3 to 2 lings dying. I let the rest into my mineral lines, because attack move with all those probes usually ends up with at most 1 probe dying. By then, the zealot should come out, and all you do is have that zealot start walling off.
Yes, but if i just use a pylon to block temporarily it only cost me 100 minerals and I never have to pull a single probe.  I can cut down the probe once I have a few zealots to block. Obviously I don't have to do any of this unless I see a super early pool. Even then I could possibly try to hold off on committing to that until I see the 6 lings.
I think I need to see a video/replay of the probe micro, i'll also look through the day9 archives and/or try as you suggest and use 2 groups. I still think you need to somehow block your ramp to prevent a second and third wave of zerglings.
|
On September 28 2010 09:25 qmail wrote:![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-148904.jpg)
This replay is completely irrelevant to a PvZ on Scrap station conversation.
|
On September 28 2010 08:01 Nasdrova wrote:
Building 2 gates and letting the zerglings into your base does NOT work, they just send in a second wave while you are running your probes around and you die.
Rep of this losing *that doesn't involve having the gateway unpowered* please, keeping in mind that even if you lose 6 probes, you're still ahead.
|
On September 28 2010 09:31 Nasdrova wrote:
I think I need to see a video/replay of the probe micro, i'll also look through the day9 archives and/or try as you suggest and use 2 groups. I still think you need to somehow block your ramp to prevent a second and third wave of zerglings.
Why are you worried about the second and third waves? If you beat the first 6 lings without taking too many losses, you've already won the game, because all waves after that one will be either 2 or 4 lings.
|
What's the best way, once you hold off a 6pool, to mop up? I have fended off rushes before, some after reading this thread, and still lost the game. Often I go Phoenix/Void Rays as I'm walled in. Should I break my wall and start mass producing?
Generally they'll expand and set up some static defense to try to regain the tech/resource deficit.
I realize this should be simple, I'd just like to know for the record what the standard build for 3-5 min after the rush is.
Thanks in advance
|
I don't do cheese but generall ZvZ 6 pools micro'd drones can kill the lings just fine until more units come, i'd imagine it would work the same for protoss and you dont even hae to worry about spines
|
if this is just talking steps of war then against zerg i see no reason why going for a 10 gate instead of a usual 12 gate is that big a deal. You start a wall off with a 9 pylon and 10 gate scout after the pylon if you see the fast pool then you can finish the wall off with either a 2nd gate or a forge if you put that down like as soon as you scout the fast pool you will have the first zealot from the 10 gate coming out maybe 5 secs or so after the lings arrive not a big deal or a canon coming up at about the same speed. put a 2nd pylon behind the first so if that does get taken down you still have power and the wall still holds.
If you scout and already have the 10 gate down and the zerg isnt going for a fast pool then you are still in a good position just pump a zealot or 2 maybe put down a 2nd gate and do some early pressure of your own if they are going fast expand you can really punish them and if he isnt you can still do a healthy bit of dmg for not massive econ deficit.
To InZil on steps especially im favouring if i wall myself in with say a gateway and a forge and a cannon i use my scrouting probe to setup a proxy gate or 2 carry on using the wall in gate to pump units then back them up with more from the proxys. Any sensible zerg that goes 6 pool and gets turned away completely will sunddenly start focusing on building an econ as fast as they can. So a realtivly fast 3-4 gate stalker zealot push will wipe them out. If they havent tried to build econ and just keep relentless producing zerglings then you will still crush them with gateway units since you will just be able to produce way more than they possible can on one hatch bad econ.
I have had a fun experience with a zerg going all in baneling trying to bust the wall but with simple micro banelings dont do much dmg to gateway units and against the wall yeah he took it down but i just rebuilt and he was left with so little afterwards that i could just walk into his main with a couple of stalkers and a few zealots and he couldnt do anything.
|
who ever been saying you can defend 6 pool with with probs + zelot thats a total utter bulls...
go watch inca vs fruitdealer from ro8 . PERFECT micro from inca and still lost horribly .
thanks for the guid OP .much appreciated.
|
cross position kulas 6 pool beats 13 gate unquestionably. You can no longer 13 gate against zerg, you must 10 gate.
|
it would be easily defendable on 2players map
however on 4 players everything depends on luck. if you scout him quick you should be able to wall off and defend it
|
If you're doing a wall-in, wouldn't it be better to wall-in with gateways (same cost as forge and cannon)?
|
im dumbfounded this actually needed a guide
but gj nonetheless! power to the noobs
|
So you scout at 9, build a 10th probe. Once you pylon is 1/2 way across the map your pylon is done. Based on your build order, I would not build another probe until my scout gets to his base, which I could have chronoboosted 2 probes by then.
IMO 10 forge is out of the question.
|
On September 28 2010 19:03 haflo wrote:
who ever been saying you can defend 6 pool with with probs + zelot thats a total utter bulls...
go watch inca vs fruitdealer from ro8 . PERFECT micro from inca and still lost horribly .
thanks for the guid OP .much appreciated.
Link?
|
12 gate 12-13 forge also works. You still need the gateway and the of cannon is not that bad. You can build a zealot and put it on the other side of the wall to delay the bust.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
