EPTShort addendum to those who may catch this post: build the 11th probe directly after the 10th. There is no reason not to. You will still have 150 minerals to react accordingly should you see the the early pool. I'll try to upload a rep of the refined version later tonight for those interested.
[G] How To Stop A 6 Pool ZvP - Page 9
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Fingo
34 Posts
Short addendum to those who may catch this post: build the 11th probe directly after the 10th. There is no reason not to. You will still have 150 minerals to react accordingly should you see the the early pool. I'll try to upload a rep of the refined version later tonight for those interested. | ||
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Durantula
United States108 Posts
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Zoltan
United States656 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:40 ionlyplayPROtoss wrote: then you realized he didn't 6 pool... ...and you didn't go forge first, so it didn't matter... even read the op? On topic: Nice effort guys, its definitely a good idea to have a solid 6pool rapin' build. Just make sure you just follow up with a sick zelot push. | ||
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Reptilia
Chile913 Posts
CASE 1 make 6 pool > win CASE 2 make 6 pool > get scouted > repel probe and cancel spawning pool > win | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
On September 29 2010 13:12 Reptilia wrote: guide for zerg to win: CASE 1 make 6 pool > win CASE 2 make 6 pool > get scouted > repel probe and cancel spawning pool > win Have 200 minerals and 5 drones = win? On September 29 2010 12:19 Skrag wrote: It's not really 100% though. Maybe for diamond players but this best for those not confident with their micro, its quite easy to mess up. I agree this thread has the wrong approach, but It's still rea asonable method that shouldn't be discounted because of this. Finally, and by far most importantly: The original poster has claimed multiple times that walling in is the *only* way to reliably beat a 6 pool on steppes, and other people have come into the thread supporting that idea, using examples of pro players losing to a 6 pool they clearly weren't ever in a million years expecting to see, that they didn't have appropriate responses worked out for, and that they lost due to very obvious things that they could have done differently. That's really where all my vehement disagreement comes from. Not only is walling off not the only way to defeat a 6pool, but it's not even the most efficient way. It may be the *easiest* way, as long as you don't fuck up later, but it's definitely not the fastest or the most efficient. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 29 2010 13:01 Durantula wrote: A better way should just be to throw up a 12gate followed by another gateway and then completely seal off with a pylon. Make you zealots behind the wall, and depending on the timing you can cancel the pylon, and then beat them with 2gate zealots. Otherwise, keep chronoboosting out zealots and you should have enough to hold and counter once they break in. Very high probability that the zerglings take that pylon down before you have a zealot out. Maybe not if they can't all 6 attack at once, but did you see how fast the lings took out Inca's pylon? Even if you multiply that by 2, I think you still lose the pylon, at which point you're back to fighting the lings with probes or stalling for the z anyway. | ||
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Goobus
Hong Kong587 Posts
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mygnads
United States1 Post
On September 29 2010 13:12 Reptilia wrote: CASE 2 make 6 pool > get scouted > repel probe and cancel spawning pool > win repel probe with what exactly?.. | ||
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DeckOneBell
United States526 Posts
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Goobus
Hong Kong587 Posts
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deadbutmoving
United States66 Posts
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DavidMcF
United Kingdom189 Posts
I'm determined to win against 6pool playing 9pylon 12gate without a wall(apart from the mineral line wall that I spoke about earlier) and get some good replays of it. Talking about pylons being attacked by lings, I put my first pylon against my nexus and build the gateway also directly next to it. So the area of attack for the lings is actually quite small. If I'm playing zerg, I only chronoboost once until I know he isnt going 6pool. If he isnt then I continue boosting probes, if he is I just boost Zealots. If possible I throw down a second gateway(which isnt usually possible  ), I also try to be continuously making probes. I just think that having the Zealots come out right at your mineral line is so important for this rush, I think it makes it much easier for me. I've never liked walling and I've never played with a wall, so i'm used to dealing with it | ||
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johngalt90
United States357 Posts
-u cannot two gate this map period. you will lose to a 6pool every time your zealots wont come fast enough and your pylons will die - a 10 gate into forge fe is imo preffered on this map its very versatile and can hold this cheese and also be effective vs macro builds. - when u see a 6 pool make a wall bottom or top of ramp it doesnt really matter but you cant have those zergligs running wild in your main right away. -if at the bottom rally your zealot to the inside of your wall. the goal is to then use your zealot and probe to jam the leak of the dead pylon hole and get some pretty epic zergling grinding its still not easy to deal with and will be pretty tense but its better than op as if they are not six pooling but instead going hatch first you wont be in very good shape | ||
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TOMNGAI
United States16 Posts
I've tested the hell out of this. I'm one of the few people here that dont need to watch the replays. For anyone talking about how a 6-pool is just 6 lings, you don't know exactly what youre talking about. A real deal 6-pool starts out with 6 lings, then at 12 second intervals (whatever larve is) is 8 to 10. Then if any of the lings die, sets keep coming. The 6 pool were looking to reliably stop isnt the easy to defend one. The whole 6 lings die and its over garbage. This is ignoring that even 6 lings cant do enough damage to justify it. When me and some friends first got the game we 6-pooled people and we did it mostly at a solid 10 supply for good portion of it. If you think you can reliably stop that (1v1 not team games) with workers and 1 zealot at a time whatever. That info is just for you guys that think theres some rule to 6 pooling where you only make 6 lings, ignoring the extra two sets which arrive in time to fight your workers. then if any of them die, the more that come asap. Not going to get into how even more lings can make it out with the extractor trick. First things first, anyone talking about how much of a huge set back it is making a forge and a cannon is crazy. If you lose 4 workers, thats already 200 minerals, i dont know the mining you lose, but its pretty obvious thats quite the setback. Coupled with the fact thats 200 minerals lost and isnt able to do anything ever. edit: without chrono boost 4 probes worth of time making will lose you an additional 200 minerals worth of mining. Figure with two chronoboosts ( im not going back to check ) itll be about +100. Real quick, anyone talking about the zealot choke block--no. Not enough time. Just say if this persons late on the 6 pool (just for the sake of it) and you got the zealot completing the wall and fighting lings one at a time. He will die. More lings will be coming. You dont even have to worry about your workers--you lose the game if your gateway goes down. For anyone trying 6 pool defense, see what happens when instead of 14v6ing your probes they just attack the gateway. The zealot isnt fighting 10 lings so hot and making a choke for the zealots to fight in ( considering buildings will go down with this method) requires more money and is a kind complicated to build and perfect timing needed, plus you lose zealot. aka the cannon is just effing better. ( i initially started with some elaborate wall that made a choke just in time, it wasnt reliable) Thats a tangent though its late ill try to be a little more coherent here. The tests I did all revolved around 9 pylon (at ramp) scout. I usually go 12 gateway, which can easily get substituted with a 12 forge (maybe 11) then the gateway to complete the wall off. I got a gateway forge and a pylon doing the wall. The cannon finishes in time to get the hits on the ling, and if they attack the pylon when it goes down thats when the zealots making its way in (along with the other pylon I'm making to power this stuff and not be supply blocked conveniently. The most lost is the pylon, either by the ling taking it down, or me using the cannon to take it down soon after. 100 minerals sacrificed for a 100% scouted, reacted and defended situation. You can get your probes, gas and cybercore just fine. Don't even need chronoboost for the first zealot. Yeah okay you might have to cut one or two workers if you want to throw down the cyber core and gas sooner--or just get them a little later. The canon damages lings well before the zealot can. In the no wall method, the moment the 6 pool is stopped isnt when the first 6 lings die, its when 2 healthy zealots are out. There are far too many variables to account for when choosing this method. Micro on both sides, and the buildings the zerg decides to attack. In this "make a forge when you see the pool" build the rush is stopped when you scout it. It is certain. It really isnt much of a deviation from a regular build besides making a complete wall and losing 100 minerals. Any deviation is not much to sacrifice for a brick wall stop. Unless youve tested things out enough to figure this out, stop spreading nonsense. The guys starting this are doing a good thing for the forum. If that worker fighting thing is working for you good for you, you arent really getting the full brunt of it. If you think the probes waiting for the one zealot at the choke is going to work in time, allright. Just try not to spread all the misinformation without any definite facts. Which some people are trying to figure out. | ||
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Cereo
United States14 Posts
On September 28 2010 08:01 Nasdrova wrote: Ok. We know it's an all in from zerg, but we still have to know what to do when we see it so you can 'quash the ling rush'. I just tried this with my practice partner on steppes. He is diamond level and pretty much has lings in my mineral line at 3:00 into the game. Zealot is maybe half done if you did a 12 gate. Your scout does not get to his base to discover the 6pool until you have pretty much queued up probe #11 and chrono your gw as part of a normal toss 12gate opening. So anything besides a 12 gate presumes early pool and you are modifying your standard 'just in case', which I do not like doing. I was wrong. Blocking with 2 gates + probes does NOT work, they chew through the probes and then it's 1 zealot against 6 lings and you still have some time before your second zealot appears. Blocking your mineral line using nearby gateways and pylons does NOT work. Maybe if you drop gates on 10 and 12 you can get your zealots out early enough and make it work, but then you are again presumining early pool and modifying your standard every time, which will hurt you if they don't early pool you. You need 4 pylons to plug the holes in the back of the mineral line, hard to do. Building 2 gates and letting the zerglings into your base does NOT work, they just send in a second wave while you are running your probes around and you die. If someone thinks this works I want to see a replay. I couldn't get it to work. I challenge someone to lose less than 6 probes and post a replay doing this. Also, if he 7 pools he's better off economically and you still can't get your zealot in place to block. Going for normal 12 gate and trying to to micro your probes and attack the lings does NOT work either. Same challenge, lose less than 6 probes and post a replay, I want to see how it's done. 2 things did work. Forge/cannon, as per the OP 2 GW blocking + an additional pylon for 100% seal, and rally zealots outside your base, possibly re-seal with another pylon if necessary. Anyway thats what I found with some testing, please do your own and verify or debunk. Thanks for being one of the few people that are making any sense. This above to anyone confused, is reality. It's good to throw around ideas but it's been proven microing workers doesn't stop 6-pool (it's not just 6 lings that come, they KEEP coming), proven 6-pool is an all in that you cannot recover from if the protoss player is anything other than a bronze player (you cannot transition into queens and 2nd bases and win, sorry), and it's been proven you cannot not wall off on Steppes and survive a well timed 6-pool. Sorry I've read 7 pages of 'theory' of how you can 'easily' stop 6-pool and it's not nearly as easy in reality as it is in your head. Thanks for the replay and build OP, seems to work very well. | ||
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asmo.0
Norway318 Posts
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Cereo
United States14 Posts
On September 29 2010 22:24 asmo.0 wrote: This build is quite obvious, but unfortunately only works on 2 player maps, specially steppes of war. Thats why 6pool has never really been an issue on steppes of war, but a huge threat on other maps. This works on other 2 player maps as well, though you will have to cancel the 12/13 gate and make a forge instead at once when you see the pool, if you 9scout... The problem has always been 4 player maps where you have 0 warning. Don't forget the random player than rolls Zerg on 4 player as well, that can really be hard to prepare for. | ||
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Goobus
Hong Kong587 Posts
On September 29 2010 22:24 asmo.0 wrote: This build is quite obvious, but unfortunately only works on 2 player maps, specially steppes of war. Thats why 6pool has never really been an issue on steppes of war, but a huge threat on other maps. This works on other 2 player maps as well, though you will have to cancel the 12/13 gate and make a forge instead at once when you see the pool, if you 9scout... The problem has always been 4 player maps where you have 0 warning. Fingo and I are currently working out the kinks of stopping a 6 pool on a 4 player map. So far, it seems to be a game of chance: counterintuitively, in cross positions, the toss has the least chance of scouting and preparing for a 6 pool, but in close positions, the chances of you scouting it are much higher and a 12 gate seems to stop it a decent amount of the time. However, when it's scouted (either when you reach his base or when you see the lings coming when your probe passes the towers), the surest way to stop it seems to also be the forge+gate+cannon dead wall. When Fingo (the toss partner) used a 12 gate, what killed him usually was losing mining time and running out of money to build zealots while he lost all his probes and I kept rallying lings to his front. You must remember, micro from both players factor heavily into the outcome of the match any time a zerg chooses to 6 pool. Currently working on replays and the optimum build order that simulates a "normal" opener from the toss, but that also takes into account the chance of dying from a 6 pool. Will upload these as they come. Thanks for the good discussion; I'll keep updating the thread with good thoughts I see from fellow TLers as well as expanding the OP to include 4 player maps, other 2 player maps, etc. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On September 24 2010 10:12 Goobus wrote: Secondly, I've uploaded new replays that reflects an improved build order that involves chronoboosting out 2 probes before putting down the forge. As you can see in the replay, it works quite well. The second replay is of the build failing. Might want to fix that.  | ||
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Goobus
Hong Kong587 Posts
On September 29 2010 23:32 Aylear wrote: The second replay is of the build failing. Might want to fix that. Ah let me fix that when I get home. I might've uploaded the one where Fingo messes up the build. xD Just goes to show how many people watch the replays. When I first posted this, I accidentally uploaded one of my replays from the beta (which, needless to say, could not be opened) and nobody said a thing =P | ||
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