On September 24 2010 10:12 Goobus wrote: Secondly, I've uploaded new replays that reflects an improved build order that involves chronoboosting out 2 probes before putting down the forge. As you can see in the replay, it works quite well.
The second replay is of the build failing. Might want to fix that.
Ah let me fix that when I get home. I might've uploaded the one where Fingo messes up the build. xD Just goes to show how many people watch the replays. When I first posted this, I accidentally uploaded one of my replays from the beta (which, needless to say, could not be opened) and nobody said a thing =P
Yep, that's the one. He messed it up, said "go again zzz sry" and the replay ends.
On September 29 2010 05:30 Skrag wrote: Ok, so I'd like to generate a series of replays to put this to rest once and for all. I'm looking for a high level zerg player with really good micro skills (macro is obviously irrelevant for 6pooling) to 6pool me in a series of games, after which the replays will be posted.
I'm only a mid-level diamond random player who is having trouble breaking the 1k point mark, but I'm confident that with a little practice, I can achieve a 100% winrate against a 6pool, without modifying my normal 9pylon 13gate build before the point that I scout the 6pool, or the lings get to my base, depending on whether it's a 2 player or a 4 player map.
If I end up getting crushed and admitting defeat, I'll eat as much crow as is necessary, and still post the replay series as an example of how the 6 pool really does crush mid-level diamond players even if they think they know what to do, but I've seen a replay of Huk losing to Machine, and Inca losing to Cool, and to be perfectly honest, despite the fact that Huk and Inca are obviously WAAAAAAAAY better than me, I don't believe I would have lost either game in their spot, because I *always* double-power my gate, and it would only have been unpowered for the short amount of time that it takes for the second pylon to finish.
PM me if you're interested, or look me up on battle.net, Skrag.133
On September 24 2010 10:19 tru_power22 wrote: Or you could micro your probes, try dropping a 13 gate at the ramp and when you see the zerlings coming pull workers to block the choke and click the minerals to bring them back if they get to low. Keep reinforcing till your zealot finishes.
That results in far too many probe losses =\ This way is the cleanest way we found to do it.
a probe off the mineral line is pretty horrible becuase its minerals invested thats not doing its job. a probe not harvesting is tantamount to a dead probe You would want to minimize time spent fighting lings/being a wall of probe
On September 29 2010 16:31 Goobus wrote: For those who think you can do a "normal build" vs. a 6 pool, Fingo and I just tested a 6 pool against a 12 gate. The results weren't even close. 6 pool beats 12 gate on steppes unless the zerg screws up.
Reps please.
You keep making this claim, without backing it up.
On September 29 2010 05:30 Skrag wrote: Ok, so I'd like to generate a series of replays to put this to rest once and for all. I'm looking for a high level zerg player with really good micro skills (macro is obviously irrelevant for 6pooling) to 6pool me in a series of games, after which the replays will be posted.
I'm only a mid-level diamond random player who is having trouble breaking the 1k point mark, but I'm confident that with a little practice, I can achieve a 100% winrate against a 6pool, without modifying my normal 9pylon 13gate build before the point that I scout the 6pool, or the lings get to my base, depending on whether it's a 2 player or a 4 player map.
If I end up getting crushed and admitting defeat, I'll eat as much crow as is necessary, and still post the replay series as an example of how the 6 pool really does crush mid-level diamond players even if they think they know what to do, but I've seen a replay of Huk losing to Machine, and Inca losing to Cool, and to be perfectly honest, despite the fact that Huk and Inca are obviously WAAAAAAAAY better than me, I don't believe I would have lost either game in their spot, because I *always* double-power my gate, and it would only have been unpowered for the short amount of time that it takes for the second pylon to finish.
PM me if you're interested, or look me up on battle.net, Skrag.133
I'd really love to see those replays
Any any other 6 pool replays as well.
I'd really love to make those replays, but so far nobody has taken me up on it. And despite multiple requests, the OP has failed to post replays of games where they failed to defend, you know, those games that they're using to claim it's impossible to hold off without walling? At this point, I can only assume they're not posting the reps because they know how easy it will be to pick them apart.
So, I'll ask again. If you think you can kill me a significant percentage of the time with a 6pool, lets do it.
On September 29 2010 20:36 TOMNGAI wrote: All right, I specifically started my account to set some things straight in this thread.
I've tested the hell out of this. I'm one of the few people here that dont need to watch the replays.
For anyone talking about how a 6-pool is just 6 lings, you don't know exactly what youre talking about. A real deal 6-pool starts out with 6 lings, then at 12 second intervals (whatever larve is) is 8 to 10. Then if any of the lings die, sets keep coming. The 6 pool were looking to reliably stop isnt the easy to defend one. The whole 6 lings die and its over garbage. This is ignoring that even 6 lings cant do enough damage to justify it.
Nobody's claiming a 6pool is just 6 lings. But if you kill those first 6 with your zealot and enough probes intact, you've won the game. End of story. 1 zealot at a time is better than 2-4 lings at a time, and once the protoss starts to recover, it should be 2 zealots at a time very quickly.
When me and some friends first got the game we 6-pooled people and we did it mostly at a solid 10 supply for good portion of it. If you think you can reliably stop that (1v1 not team games) with workers and 1 zealot at a time whatever. That info is just for you guys that think theres some rule to 6 pooling where you only make 6 lings, ignoring the extra two sets which arrive in time to fight your workers. then if any of them die, the more that come asap. Not going to get into how even more lings can make it out with the extractor trick.
Unless you fail to double-power your gateway, any lings past the first 6 are also going to have to deal with a zealot.
Seriously, if you think you can beat me repeatedly with a 6pool while I'm doing a normal build, then lets do it. One of the two of us will have to eat a little crow at the end of it, but I'm ok with that possibility.
IF you kill the 6 lings with a zealot and enough probes intact.
Yeah IF. Do you know when a zealot comes out in a regular build/ when 6-pool lings arrive at your ramp and then at the nexus? Tell me some times if you want. Even before the patch this was a problem. Zealot at 12 and 13 gate comes pretty damn late, If you do 12 or 13 gate you're going to have problems. When you figure out even with 5 extra sc seconds before the patch it was a problem, youd realize the specific solution isnt the zealot.
Not talking about winning with that first amount everytime, but yeah this "normal build" if attacked by the real lamer cheese way will take enough losses to justify doing something else. Considering the best micro you could have just isnt going to work everytime with the mount of losses hoped for.
This isnt about being stubborn and ignoring a problem. Its about scouting what the opponent is doing and reacting in a specific way that guarantees results. If you think your regular build and fighting the rush your way is going to not be a coin toss, go get a friend and tell him to set his rally point and spam lings. If he has half any idea how to control them, and when to attack a building and or something else, youll get the idea. Got to do it a lot of times to get the facts, get a decent friend.
I've took the time and tested this enough before posting so I dont need to spend anymore time on this. Stop asking for replays if you don't want to believe it. You go test it, and you figure it out.
On September 30 2010 04:04 Skrag wrote: I'd really love to make those replays, but so far nobody has taken me up on it. And despite multiple requests, the OP has failed to post replays of games where they failed to defend, you know, those games that they're using to claim it's impossible to hold off without walling? At this point, I can only assume they're not posting the reps because they know how easy it will be to pick them apart.
So, I'll ask again. If you think you can kill me a significant percentage of the time with a 6pool, lets do it.
We haven't posted those replays because they aren't relevant. Yes, it is possible to hold a 6 pool with a 10 gate and, to a lesser extent, with a 12 gate. You may even be able to hold it the majority of the time after some practice (although 12 gate is dubious, on steps at least). The point at issue is that you're forced into playing a dangerous micro game. Lings will often get into your base, hell will break lose, and you may very well lose. This build forgoes the risk and puts you significantly ahead.
As to your personal challenge, what's the point? I'm satisfied with the pro players who have recently lost to 6 pools using standard builds to know that micro and probes isn't always sufficient. I don't need to beat you.
On September 30 2010 04:04 Skrag wrote: I'd really love to make those replays, but so far nobody has taken me up on it. And despite multiple requests, the OP has failed to post replays of games where they failed to defend, you know, those games that they're using to claim it's impossible to hold off without walling? At this point, I can only assume they're not posting the reps because they know how easy it will be to pick them apart.
So, I'll ask again. If you think you can kill me a significant percentage of the time with a 6pool, lets do it.
We haven't posted those replays because they aren't relevant.
Yes, they are relevant, or I wouldn't be asking for them. I'm quite convinced that if you did post one, there would be very simple things that could be pointed out that were done incorrectly, leading to the zerg winning. Post one. What do you have to lose, if I'm wrong.
As to your personal challenge, what's the point? I'm satisfied with the pro players who have recently lost to 6 pools using standard builds to know that micro and probes isn't always sufficient. I don't need to beat you.
I'm not satisfied with those pro games, because I've seen HuK and Inca both lose because THEY DIDN'T RESPOND CORRECTLY.
In both of those games, they lost because they didn't double-power the gate. There are at least 2 other things Inca could have done differently that would almost certainly have resulted in a win, and Huk put down a useless second gateway instead of a second pylon.
Yes, I said it. Two pro players lost against a 6 pool because they weren't properly prepared for it.
Put me in my place and prove me wrong. Or at the very least, stop making claims while being completely unwilling to show any proof of those claims.
I believe I could have won the game that Inca lost against Cool/FruitDealer. Feel free to track Cool down and have him 6 pool me in a series of games. After a practice game or two, I truly believe that I would beat him every single game, or at the very least demonstrate that it's so close that a better player than me (Huk or Inca for example) would be able to win 100% simply by not letting their gate get depowered.
It's really hard to see timings from that replay, since the commentator focused on the zerg base until after the zerglings were already attacking, but it appears he went forge first, and built a gateway before building any cannons.
When he did place cannons, the placement forced him to fight in the mineral line, with 2 cannons blocking off space as well. Enclosed spaces massively favor the lings. If you fight in your mineral line with all your probes, you will lose them all. Add the extra blockage from the cannons, and the zerglings are, of course, going to rape your probes, which is exactly what happened.
It's entirely possible that better cannon placement, that didn't force the probes to fight in small enclosed spaces, would have made it possible to hold the attack off. In particular, placing the cannons directly against the nexus, spaced a little further out, so that the lings couldn't get a full surround on them, and allowing the probes to protect them better, might have worked.
I'd be more than happy to test that, if anybody is willing.
At best, this replay shows that forge-gateway is not a stable build against zerg because it insta-loses to a 6pool.
Its pretty funny to see how unable alot are to defend a 6 pool. They forget how low eco and allin the build is and think loosing probes vs it is a problem. Its pretty hilarious..
Unfortunately I'm on the EU server (and my micro is bad anyways). Otherwise I would test it with you.
Don't get me wrong, I know that your strategy will fend off a 6 pool if executed correctly. When I tested this with my practice partner, he was able to defend with his probes 100% of the time against my 6 pool. But he always builds his pylon + gateway right at his nexus, so that the probes are a bit better protected and he can defend his pylon more easily. But personally I like walling-off in order to protect myself from other early aggression builds (like speedling rushes etc.).
It's just that I mess up too often when trying to defend this and it would be nice to see the defense executed properly in a replay. I absolutely believe that your strategy is optimal given sufficient micro. But seeing even pros mess it up this frequently makes me wonder if I should just opt for the easy route (like OP's wall-in) instead of trying the theoretically perfect way and losing 80% of the time.
Ok, I just found the replay for that Dimaga vs KiwiKaki game. The forge and wallin at the bottom of the ramp were actually *in response* to seeing the 6pool, and didn't go down til 16 supply, which seems maybe a little excessively greedy.
KiwiKaki tried to get away with a little more than maybe he should have, chronoboosting up to 15 probes before he even considered putting another building down, and even then, he was very late in putting a building down. He spotted the 6pool at He had enough minerals to build a gateway or a forge at 1:59, scouted the 6pool at 2:08, but didn't actually place the forge until 2:19, with a surplus of 120 minerals.
If he had placed a gate at 1:59, (which, at 15 supply, is very late by typical standards, although I won't pretend to know what he was trying to do), it would have finished slightly after the zerglings got there, leaving him in the more familiar situation of either fighting in the open or delaying for a zealot.
And if he was actually planning on forge first for some reason, 20 seconds would have made a *world* of difference.
Guess what? Pros fuckup sometimes too, and greediness can, and does, cause losses against rushes. There is absolutely nothing out of the ordinary here.
On September 29 2010 04:20 haflo wrote: he constantly manage to avoid getting Surround with impossible odds
how exactly does 6 zerglings get a surround on 12 probes?
12 probes beat 6 zerglings in a fight given equal micro. Inca handled it wrong. He's a fantastic player...a lot better than me thats for sure - but that doesn't mean he can't make mistakes, and he made one.
I got some reps. My opponent is not a zerg player, but is a 1450-ish diamond terran player, and has pretty good micro. I, on the other hand, am a random player who is having trouble breaking the 1k mark on the ladder.
A couple notes: I'm not a top notch player by any means. My micro and macro are both lacking, and it shows in these replays. Yet I still win pretty convincingly.
First, a replay of me doing the same ultra-greedy and slow response that Kiwikaki did against Dimaga, but with better cannon placement. Having the cannons against the nexus and closer to the edge allows me to protect them better, without having to fight in the narrow spaces created by the mineral line. It doesn't play out exactly the same way as the kiwikaki game, for example the gateway doesn't actually go down, but I think it shows that you can be ridiculously late, and still manage to hold. This one shows pretty clearly how well probes do against lings when they're out in the open, as opposed to fighting in narrow corridors.
Second, a more standard defense on steppes. I lose more probes than I should, and my gateway even gets unpowered at one point, because I suck, but I don't think I ever drop below 11 probes to his 7 drones.
Finally, just for giggles, a total all-in on steppes, including his drones. I was not expecting him to do this, and he may have been able to win if he'd focused on pylons before gateways, I'm not sure. Obviously, if you win the fight and have even one worker left, you win.
I got all the broad strokes right, but if you notice all the little things I could have done better (which presumably a pro player would be doing much better than me), I don't think it's even close.
BTW, the steppes replays are of me doing a 13gate, which is my standard protoss build. 12 gate would have a slightly easier time, and 10pylon/11gate would absolutely crush it. (see the most recent Dimaga vs Kiwikaki KOTH showmatch, where dimaga tries to 6pool Kiwi again and gets crushed. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=155154 I don't remember which game, sorry)
Btw., in the second replay (Steppes of War, without drone attack) I noticed a bug. When you cancel the assimilator, the replay software counts it as Units Lost - 75 Resources. Not sure but I don't think that's intentional.
Still you lost 10 or 11 probes in this replay. Of course, it's possible to survive with smaller losses, but 11 probes is significantly more than 1-3 like some people were arguing in this thread. I'm not doubting that you can lose less (even < 3) but it shows just how hard it is and it's not a safe win by any means. If the Zerg had macro'd at some point and built a queen and some more drones, you would not have been ahead necessarily. He had enough money for this.
On September 30 2010 10:40 Merlinius wrote: Thank you for the replays!
Btw., in the second replay (Steppes of War, without drone attack) I noticed a bug. When you cancel the assimilator, the replay software counts it as Units Lost - 75 Resources. Not sure but I don't think that's intentional.
Still you lost 10 or 11 probes in this replay. Of course, it's possible to survive with smaller losses, but 11 probes is significantly more than 1-3 like some people were arguing in this thread. I'm not doubting that you can lose less (even < 3) but it shows just how hard it is and it's not a safe win by any means. If the Zerg had macro'd at some point and built a queen and some more drones, you would not have been ahead necessarily. He had enough money for this.
The total number of probes lost is irrelevant, as long as you stay far enough ahead that if the pressure comes off, you have a significant income advantage. It's also important to note that in the steppes replay without his drones attacking, I was able to leave workers on minerals and still hold.
If they're attacking pylons, you don't need to bring all your workers, and if they try to attack workers instead, fighting them in the open with all of your workers makes for very few losses, as shown in the first replay where I was just trying to delay until cannons got up.
And IMO, it is a totally safe win. We played quite a few more games than this, the steppes replay I ended up posting is just the one where he did the most damage, and if you watch the replay, there are a lot of spots where I'm playing pretty poorly.
The complete all-in with drones could have gone either way, I'm honestly not sure what the best way to handle that is.
The first attempt to reproduce the Kiwikaki vs Dimaga game, I did lose, but it was because I made a *really* bad mistake. I had all my probes selected, and was going to place a pylon, so the build menu was up, but needed to attack to save a cannon, and didn't cancel the build menu first, so rather than actually attacking, my probes were just moving, and I ended up losing both cannons before figuring out why the hell my probes weren't attacking when I told them to.
Other than those two games, I don't think I was ever in danger of losing, including one game where I only got one zealot out before he took down both my pylons.
EPT
a probe not harvesting is tantamount to a dead probe 
