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On October 01 2010 09:25 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2010 07:43 Darthturtle wrote:
Inca already made two bad plays at this point: 1 - Pulling probes to defend way too late. 2 - pulling too many probes. You forgot #3: not double-powering the gate. I have always double-powered my starting buildings ever since the first time a fast rush managed to take down my pylon leaving me dead in the water. Why pros seem to not do this as a simple matter of habit is completely beyond me. The third pylon can go wherever you need it to go, but the second should always be in proximity to the first.
I don't mind not double-powering so much. It's a strategic decision, in fact.
Optimally, Protoss will defend well enough so that the pylon does not go down. If that's the case, then it doesn't matter nearly as much if the front is double-powered.
As a matter of fact, single-powering the front has one unique feature: Zergs are way more likely to see that and try to focus down the pylon, rather than go for the probe line. If Inca's timing was good, he could use his probes to wipe out the entire wave of zerglings(assuming they commit to sniping the building), barely save the pylon, and not lose anything at all. Unfortunately, Inca played like ass and lost the pylon, and now, all of a sudden, not double-powering becomes extraordinarily noticable. And then he had to break his wall to afford a replacement.
Not double-powering isn't a mistake unless part of your plan involves definitely losing your pylon. Otherwise, the mistake is whatever you did or didn't do that let the opponent kill your building.
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I have been 6 pooling vs p for a while. I'm only silver, so wanted some higher feedback, because I added an ol to the build. This only delays the first 6 lings by a second or two, and wit the five drones I can still make lings as soon as larva spawn. I very rarely lose doing that, even on 4 player maps when I don't find them at the first spot...the I'll often have 12 lings when I get there. Now, my opponents are bad, but so am I...and I feel like when I lose it's because I messd up and lost lings too early. Was wondering if anyoe actually good had tried it that way?
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This only delays the first 6 lings by a second or two, and wit the five drones I can still make lings as soon as. larva spawn
Something in your build is wonky or not tight then because building that ol seems like it should delay by more than a second or two.
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while waiting for the spawn pool you build up around235 minerals and max out larva...if you hit the ol at 100 you'll have 135 and 3 larva when the pool pops...just a couple seconds to hit 150 for 3 lings...from then on you have just over 50 each time another larva spawns
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On October 02 2010 01:03 pbecot01 wrote:
while waiting for the spawn pool you build up around235 minerals and max out larva...if you hit the ol at 100 you'll have 135 and 3 larva when the pool pops...just a couple seconds to hit 150 for 3 lings...from then on you have just over 50 each time another larva spawns
In all the replays I've seen of pros 6pooling, they drone up to 7 after building the pool, which obviously you're not doing if you build up to 235 when the pool isn't done.
This doesn't cut into larvae production at all, you still have 3 larvae when the pool pops, and following that up with a double-extractor trick still allows you to get an extra 4 lings very quickly. Obviously there's a delay for any lings after that, since you need to build an overlord, but I don't think any larvae get wasted.
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What's the point of a 7th drone? The 5 mining produce exactly enough minerals to pump lings with all your larva, and the delay from building the OL at 12 or so will be longer then the couple seconds earlier.
I dunno, guess it doesn't really matter-I don't much like 6 pooling because my micro is bad enough that I lose a good percentage if my opponent builds around his nexus. But It still seems like I can mass lings better with the OL first.
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On October 02 2010 10:19 pbecot01 wrote:
What's the point of a 7th drone? The 5 mining produce exactly enough minerals to pump lings with all your larva, and the delay from building the OL at 12 or so will be longer then the couple seconds earlier.
Scouting on 4player maps for one. It also builds up enough resources that you can get a queen eventually, which can be huge if the game is very close and going back and forth. You get exactly the same number of lings total, because that's limited by larvae not minerals, but there's a delay after the 5th set, waiting for an overlord. The first 10 lings come out at the same time, though (or a few seconds faster), and those are by far the most important ones anyway. If you haven't done significant damage with those, then the chances are very good you're going to lose anyway.
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I was 6pooled today on Steppes, and this guide helped so much! I tossed up a pylon in the corner, gateway + forge to cover the entrace and then did a cannon at the back. He had to pull out, as I had dual-powered my wall-in, because by the time he might've killed that pylon the cannon would be up, and I had the possibiilty to start chrono'ing zealots. However, I HAD to do a 10 gate, and even when I did, the gate just about finished when the first zergling wave arrived. I immediately tossed up a forge after my gateway, and they finished about the same time. I could have done a cannon instead of that second pylon, but I think that second pylon was a good investment in case the zerg would try to gamble and get down that first pylon in the corner and two pylons + cannon going up was too intimidating, so he pulled out without even trying.
During all this time, I had a far superior economic advantage. I got warpgate, denied a possible FE at his nat by putting up a pylon protected by two cannons (I stayed outside with my scouting probe), which also quite effectively limited his movement out of his base, forcing him to go one base. I kept warping in units at the proxy pylon at his nat, in case he pulled out while I teched up to phoenix and from there it was gg, when I kept killing his overlords which cost his already crippled eco so much.
I don't see how you are supposed to get out a zealot before the zergling wave arrives. Maybe I am just slow, but I doubt my gateway was that delayed.
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On October 03 2010 04:37 Lea wrote:
I was 6pooled today on Steppes, and this guide helped so much! I tossed up a pylon in the corner, gateway + forge to cover the entrace and then did a cannon at the back. He had to pull out, as I had dual-powered my wall-in, because by the time he might've killed that pylon the cannon would be up, and I had the possibiilty to start chrono'ing zealots. However, I HAD to do a 10 gate, and even when I did, the gate just about finished when the first zergling wave arrived. I immediately tossed up a forge after my gateway, and they finished about the same time. I could have done a cannon instead of that second pylon, but I think that second pylon was a good investment in case the zerg would try to gamble and get down that first pylon in the corner and two pylons + cannon going up was too intimidating, so he pulled out without even trying.
During all this time, I had a far superior economic advantage. I got warpgate, denied a possible FE at his nat by putting up a pylon protected by two cannons (I stayed outside with my scouting probe), which also quite effectively limited his movement out of his base, forcing him to go one base. I kept warping in units at the proxy pylon at his nat, in case he pulled out while I teched up to phoenix and from there it was gg, when I kept killing his overlords which cost his already crippled eco so much.
I don't see how you are supposed to get out a zealot before the zergling wave arrives. Maybe I am just slow, but I doubt my gateway was that delayed.
How can you respond with a 10 gate? If you pylon scout, your 11th probe should be almost finished when you scout his build (on Steppes of War). The earliest response you could possibly do is delaying the 12th probe and throwing down the gateway a second or two earlier.
Btw. on Steppes it is not possible to get the first zealot out before his lings arrive (not even with a 10 gate, i think). You need to defend with probes - unless you're doing some kind of wall-in, of course.
Why did you throw down a cannon at the back of your base? Just use your workers to kill of the lings and save those minerals.
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Why did you throw down a cannon at the back of your base? Just use your workers to kill of the lings and save those minerals.
Probably because somebody put funny ideas into people's heads like cutting early probes and using cannons to defend. Then we get some other people that drew all sorts of crazy conclusions.
News Flash: If you cut two probes, but delay your gate while waiting for your scout to get there, that's not a ten gate. That's a 12 gate short two probes.
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Thx so much OP, this build has already saved me a number of would-be losses  . I agree with some people in this thread that you can also do it with solid probe micro, but this build is much easier to execute imo and it doesn't throw off my regular timings when zerg does play a standard game!
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On October 03 2010 06:54 Darthturtle wrote:Show nested quote +Why did you throw down a cannon at the back of your base? Just use your workers to kill of the lings and save those minerals. Probably because somebody put funny ideas into people's heads like cutting early probes and using cannons to defend. Then we get some other people that drew all sorts of crazy conclusions. News Flash: If you cut two probes, but delay your gate while waiting for your scout to get there, that's not a ten gate. That's a 12 gate short two probes.
Watch the fucking replays. We modified the build so that you don't have to cut 2 probes. Stop flaming my thread and gtfo. If you have something constructive to say, say it. Otherwise, save it.
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Thanks for the build / replays!
I think any good player should have these prepared backup plans / modified builds in their arsenal for things like scouted 6-pool. It's pointless to desperately cling to your one 12/13 gate build when there are such better options out there, unless you lack the mental capacity to remember / execute more than one opening.
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My last 5 or 6 PvZ's the zerg has done a <10 pool, so this thread is wonderfully helpful, thanks!
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this worked out for me. thanks
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For Zergs reading this, thinking they're screwed now, you're really not. After you build your pool, use the newly made drone to scout and block their ramp. If they send probes, micro while bringing a 2nd drone down. 6 lings coming in afterwards ends it.
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On October 07 2010 12:30 forgotten0ne wrote:
For Zergs reading this, thinking they're screwed now, you're really not. After you build your pool, use the newly made drone to scout and block their ramp. If they send probes, micro while bringing a 2nd drone down. 6 lings coming in afterwards ends it.
The only time sensitive building is the forge, the gateway can be delayed 10-15 seconds and still be fine. As long as the protoss isn't terrible and brings 2-3 probes to shoo the drone away it should be ez
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So what would you do if the zerg goes directly after your pylons and then kites your workers to wait for reinforcements when you pull them from the mineral line or just finishes off the pylon if you're too slow?
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i always warp out at least one zealot to guard agaisnt an early 6gate cheese
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The easiest way to defend a 6pool is definitely to scout at 9 and just place a gateway at 12, then a forge at 14, and a pylon at 15 (the pylon finishes your wall off). The pylon should finish about when lings get there and your cannon/s should already be going up. When people 6pool me I do this then when they see it I say "Enjoy" just to rub it in that they're totally screwed ^_^.
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EPT
