EPThttp://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137
inca vs fruitdealer ro8
[G] How To Stop A 6 Pool ZvP - Page 8
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HECKER
United States15 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137 inca vs fruitdealer ro8 | ||
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haflo
140 Posts
cool Vs Inca 1st set: http://www.gomtv.net/videos/1137/0 | ||
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Lea
Sweden120 Posts
On September 26 2010 12:37 tGhOeOoDry wrote: What this thread needs: 1) A replay where, instead of breaking down the wall, the zerg player uses his lings to contain and then tries to macro up. I have a strong suspicion that Darthturtle is underestimating the time it will take to macro up, but I don't actually know, and neither me nor my friends are diamond (mid-plat random here) so I can't test it myself. Goobus and Fingo have already shown a willingness to explore this situation. Perhaps they could explore this modification as well? 2) Could someone post a replay where their workers defeat a six pool with minimal casualties? Again, Goobus and Fingo maybe? I am imagining that, with good ling micro, focusing on taking down the Gateway pylon first, the lings will do more damage than simply killing two probes. Of course, I don't actually know. Theorycrafting is all well and good (see my handle, har har har), but the strong, uncompromising tone of some of these posts is just silly when no one has provided proof. Will a zerg who switches to a macro game win against this build? Are the people who say all you need is good probe micro blowing smoke? These are things we can prove. I say someone does it, then we discuss the results. I find the idea silly that a good protoss player would somehow naturally loose to a zerg who goes macro. That is what zerg should do anyway, while a protoss player can manage on one base simply because our units are so just so powerful, especially late game. Even if the zerg decides to go macro play, there's nothing that stops the protoss to start harassing after this. Given the time-span, by the time protoss has teched up enough to do harassment, I don't see how much of a difference this would make macro-game wise. If the zerg was opting for muta, the gas is very delayed, so muta is not an initial option until the zerg is done powerdroning. If you are going to make statements that well, zerg can just pull out and start powerdroning, you also have to consider that a good protoss player can manage a zerg who are on 2 bases or maybe even 3. Reminds me of that game where Cool (Fruitseller) forced a protoss player to go one base with mass queens. Guess what? The protoss won. Despite that Cool had 4 bases. I just find the assumption that a protoss has to loose against a zerg macro'ing rediculous, once you get past the early game point, there's nothing saying that the zerg must win just because they macro. | ||
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Kikuichimonji
United States102 Posts
On September 28 2010 19:03 haflo wrote: Inca's micro wasn't perfect. First of all he lost the first probe that could have blocked while the rest of them came to the choke. Secondly he cancelled the cyber core that made his wall-in. Third he engaged the zerglings in a narrow passage which made his superior probe numbers less important (note that this isn't a contradiction with #2, if he still had that wall he could have engaged right inside the choke and engaged maybe 1 ling to 3 probes). Fourth, if he had successfully made his choke he could have pulled back some probes to mine. Fifth, at 12:50-ish he lost a zealot. He should have brought the zealot that just spawned around and to the left of the nexus while running the rest of his units to the left as well. Two zealots + probes would have decimated those lings.who ever been saying you can defend 6 pool with with probs + zelot thats a total utter bulls... go watch inca vs fruitdealer from ro8 . PERFECT micro from inca and still lost horribly . thanks for the guid OP .much appreciated. Edit: and this is out of order but the way that he walled was bad. Diagonal chokes are not as good as vertical/horizontal ones. Not that this mattered because he cancelled the cyber. | ||
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tGhOeOoDry
United States48 Posts
I would still love it if someone would post a replay of them defeating a high-level 6pool with only probes and maybe a zealot or two. I know it can be done, but it hardly seems like a trivial exercise. What is the success rate? I'd also still love to see a zerg player transition out of a failed 6pool and then outmacro and defeat the protoss player. I don't think it's possible, but some say it is. If it is, please prove it. | ||
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haflo
140 Posts
Inca's micro wasn't perfect. First of all he lost the first probe that could have blocked while the rest of them came to the choke. Secondly he cancelled the cyber core that made his wall-in. Third he engaged the zerglings in a narrow passage which made his superior probe numbers less important (note that this isn't a contradiction with #2, if he still had that wall he could have engaged right inside the choke and engaged maybe 1 ling to 3 probes). Fourth, if he had successfully made his choke he could have pulled back some probes to mine. Fifth, at 12:50-ish he lost a zealot. He should have brought the zealot that just spawned around and to the left of the nexus while running the rest of his units to the left as well. Two zealots + probes would have decimated those lings. Edit: and this is out of order but the way that he walled was bad. Diagonal chokes are not as good as vertical/horizontal ones. Not that this mattered because he cancelled the cyber. really man ? i don't want to be rude but i think you are behind-sight Nitpicking. he constantly manage to avoid getting Surround with impossible odds , move injured probes to the back , go back and forth between fighting ground and mining , really much better then an average diamond can do , not to mention average player , and sure 10000x better then what poor me can do , and he didn't marginly lost , he lost big time , maybe it wasn't perfect but it was very impressive and i not sure you can duplicate it . yes cool is no slouch as well . but really if you need better micro then inca (one of the best toss in the world) to defend 6 gate without walling in and cannons like some people suggested here , i don't call it a valid strategy ,i call it again theoreticly-crafting bulls... but the web page takes everything , so why not type. personnally i do not believe you can survive well executed 6 pool without any preperations and just normal build / probes ,waiting for the zelots who never come . i would love a replay but really i gonna stick to wallin + cannon , and i will take my chance with zerg macroing after 6 gate (and lets face it the zerg i meet macroing is not that scary  ) | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 29 2010 01:46 HECKER wrote: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137 inca vs fruitdealer ro8 Two things: #1: That was *NOT* perfect micro. Not even close. Fighting zerglings in a narrow area is exactly how you lose all of your probes to the lings. And if his goal was simply to keep the lings back, he should have put some probes back on minerals and delayed with the remaining probes. You only need to pull all of your probes if you're going to try to surround for the kill. #2: Double power the gateways for fuck's sake. If zergs are 6pooling in high-level tournaments (and it seems they are, at least occasionally), it is quite frankly inexcusable for the second pylon not to have been built powering the gateway. If InCa puts a few probes back on minerals while delaying, OR if he double-powers his gateway, OR if he tries to lure the lings out into the open to get a surround, rather than letting probes take damage in the choke while not dealing nearly enough back, he probably wins that game. And I'm just saying he needs to do any one of those 3 things. If he does all 3, the game probably ends up being a complete blowout. After seeing vids of both Huk and InCa losing to a 6pool, I'm completely convinced that this whole 6pooling at a very high level thing is very new, and the pros simply haven't prepared appropriately. In particular, Huk and Inca both lost purely because their gateway wasn't double-powered, and the zerglings were able to depower it early, before the probes were able to respond. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 29 2010 03:54 tGhOeOoDry wrote: @Kiku: He needed to cancel the cyber because he wasn't going to be able to mine and it was a priority for him to get out as many zealots as possible ASAP. The lings were getting in anyways. Agreed. Canceling the cyber was absolutely necessary. On September 29 2010 03:54 tGhOeOoDry wrote: Also, FruitDealer is really good, and lings are just as fast (faster?) than probes. So FruitDealer was able to choose where to engage. If Inca backed away from the choke, then the lings go for the gateway/pylon, then back away again as necessary. Lings are only slightly faster than probes. The difference is so small that 2 lings can chase a probe pretty much across the entire map before managing to kill it. And if the lings go for the gateway, the protoss doesn't need to do anything at all, because it will take the lings a really long time to take down the gate. But if they go for the pylon, they risk being surrounded by probes and killed before they can take the gate down, in which case the game's over, and protoss wins. | ||
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Yokoblue
Canada594 Posts
sry | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
I'm only a mid-level diamond random player who is having trouble breaking the 1k point mark, but I'm confident that with a little practice, I can achieve a 100% winrate against a 6pool, without modifying my normal 9pylon 13gate build before the point that I scout the 6pool, or the lings get to my base, depending on whether it's a 2 player or a 4 player map. If I end up getting crushed and admitting defeat, I'll eat as much crow as is necessary, and still post the replay series as an example of how the 6 pool really does crush mid-level diamond players even if they think they know what to do, but I've seen a replay of Huk losing to Machine, and Inca losing to Cool, and to be perfectly honest, despite the fact that Huk and Inca are obviously WAAAAAAAAY better than me, I don't believe I would have lost either game in their spot, because I *always* double-power my gate, and it would only have been unpowered for the short amount of time that it takes for the second pylon to finish. PM me if you're interested, or look me up on battle.net, Skrag.133 | ||
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Fitzhunt1
United States169 Posts
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Khaladas
United States223 Posts
On September 29 2010 08:00 Fitzhunt1 wrote: Another cute tactic is when you see it save 200 mins and go to the bottom of there ramp and build two pylons to wall them in! I saw orb do this on his stream. While you are at it, might as well make it even cheesier and drop a forge at your ramp choke instead of your second gateway then put a cannon right behind to protect the 2 pylons. :D | ||
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aidnai
United States1159 Posts
Also, the zerg (cool) used an extractor trick to get extra lings, just like the OP. All the nay-sayers have been suggesting that once you beat the first 6 lings with your sexy micro, it's GG. What if it's 8 or 10 lings vs. 14 probes? I play T so this discussion is not that important to me. But the people saying Inca's micro was to blame for his loss... just wow. The only thing Inca could have done 'better' is get luckier with the scouting... either seeing the base or the lings on the way would have saved him. All this VOD shows, really, is that a 6 pool wins if it completely blindsides the P. Which doesn't exactly relate to the OP unfortunately. Watching the VOD-- InCa does not see the lings or any other sign of 6 pool until they hit his wall at 10:56 in the VOD. He micros his probe (which just built the core) into the narrow gap to buy time and immediately pulls all his probes. It's hard to see when they start moving on the minimap, but they arrive at the scene (all the way across the main) at 11:06 in the VOD, only ten seconds later. It's already too late... Only way InCa beats this is to see it coming 5-10 seconds before the lings arrive. You would get 'lucky scouting' on a 2 player map (steppes) if you scout early. | ||
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Kikuichimonji
United States102 Posts
Edit: I scouted on 9 pylon too. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 29 2010 10:13 aidnai wrote: If the lings kill a pylon, are you supply capped? how many zealots can you get out with your first pylon gone? I'm not sure double powering will save you... Double-powering would get you one zealot, which, combined with probes, is more than enough to kill the first 6 lings before the next wave comes, or even delay until you can replace the pylon that was destroyed to get more probes and zealots, if the zerglings won't fight. Inca *almost* held it off despite the fact that his gateway was depowered. He had a second pylon, it was just placed all the way back by his nexus. Also, the zerg (cool) used an extractor trick to get extra lings, just like the OP. All the nay-sayers have been suggesting that once you beat the first 6 lings with your sexy micro, it's GG. What if it's 8 or 10 lings vs. 14 probes? If the zerg delays until 8 or 10 lings, then you're almost certain to have a zealot out in time. The zealot *easily* makes up for 4 extra lings, as long as it doesn't get surrounded fighting alone. I play T so this discussion is not that important to me. But the people saying Inca's micro was to blame for his loss... just wow. The only thing Inca could have done 'better' is get luckier with the scouting... either seeing the base or the lings on the way would have saved him. I say Inca's micro and building placement was to blame for his lost because I listed 3 things that he clearly could have done better, any one of which probably wins him the game, given how close it was. All 3, and like I said, it's probably a blowout win for protoss. Watching the VOD-- InCa does not see the lings or any other sign of 6 pool until they hit his wall at 10:56 in the VOD. He micros his probe (which just built the core) into the narrow gap to buy time and immediately pulls all his probes. It's hard to see when they start moving on the minimap, but they arrive at the scene (all the way across the main) at 11:06 in the VOD, only ten seconds later. It's already too late... He did react almost instantly, but not fast enough to keep the pylon from dying. That's why double-powering is so important. Also, narrow areas work in favor of the lings, not the probes. Simple test: have somebody 6pool you, and fight with all your workers in the mineral line. You'll lose every single worker. Fighting in the open, the workers will win, and the number of losses taken depends purely on your ability to micro damaged workers in and out of the battle. Only way InCa beats this is to see it coming 5-10 seconds before the lings arrive. You would get 'lucky scouting' on a 2 player map (steppes) if you scout early. Like I said, there are 3 things he could have done to beat this, IMO. Double power the gateway, stay away from the choke, or pull 5-6 workers back on minerals while trying to make sure the lings don't get a chance to kill the pylon that was being built to repower the gateway. Double-powering the gate would have got the first zealot out more than early enough to put a serious hurt on the lings, pulling workers back on minerals would have let him continue to add zealots, and staying away from the choke would have lost fewer worker while he was trying to delay for the zealot. The only thing I'm not 100% sure of is if the lings get through to attack the pylon, if workers will be able to kill the lings before the lings take down the pylon. If not, then trying to block them at the choke was the right thing to do, but he still could have done it with fewer workers, putting enough back on minerals to have a chance. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
The difficult thing is fending off 6-pools on 4 player maps. You can't be sure to scout your opponent in time of those maps but the rush distances are small enough to lose to a 6-pool if you don't see it on time (cool vs inca for example). The proper way to stop it imo is to go with a good wall-in that can be completed with a forge all the time and double powering your first gateway. | ||
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
Take a look at about 3:25 in that match, because that's when the zealot should have been out. It would have made a HUGE difference, not to mention the fact that he could have been more cautious with his probes if he knew a zealot was incoming, and not lost the 5 probes he did futzing around in the choke. | ||
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
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Skrag
United States643 Posts
On September 29 2010 11:48 TheFinalWord wrote: I like this method, why bother microing when you can just wall off. There are only 3 things I don't like about this thread, and walling off in general: If I'm going to win the game 100% of the time, I'd prefer to win the game quickly rather than slowly. If I'm not going to win 100% of the time, I'd prefer not to give myself a chance to fuck up later by turtling and somehow getting surprised by a zerg who managed to pull off a whole hell of a lot more than I would have thought he could. There's an example of that in either this thread or one of the other dozens of threads about 6pools, where a failed 6pool came back pretty significantly, taking two gold expansions while the protoss was turtling and building up, and the zerg probably would have won if he hadn't made a number of bad choices. Finally, and by far most importantly: The original poster has claimed multiple times that walling in is the *only* way to reliably beat a 6 pool on steppes, and other people have come into the thread supporting that idea, using examples of pro players losing to a 6 pool they clearly weren't ever in a million years expecting to see, that they didn't have appropriate responses worked out for, and that they lost due to very obvious things that they could have done differently. That's really where all my vehement disagreement comes from. Not only is walling off not the only way to defeat a 6pool, but it's not even the most efficient way. It may be the *easiest* way, as long as you don't fuck up later, but it's definitely not the fastest or the most efficient. | ||
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