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On September 26 2010 13:18 mlbrandow wrote:
i play TP and i usually wall, giving P the ability to wall in a zz game with 0 losses and barely shield drop on cannon is pretty nice. And if I see ZZ i just go 1/1/1 into banshees.
If both players can wall, that's fine, but a double 6 pool is obviously going to put a lot more pressure on the wall than the single. Obviously the terran can just repair and be fine, but if you have a pylon as part of your wall, the lings might be able to take it down before you have enough to hold them off.
And if you have a zerg partner, and wall off with static defense, you're pretty much guaranteed to lose the game. If your partner is going to die, you *have* to kill one of the zergs before they can get an economy up.
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On September 24 2010 21:06 Cyuss wrote:
After scouted a 6 pool i usually do nothing different and stick to my plan. The probes ive got at the point are enough to do a nice sorround and be conomically ahead of the z. Specially if the Zerg goes for my mineral line i consider it an auto win as u can simply clumb ur drones on one mineral patch, give them the oder to go to another and right away a- move them. Out comes a perfect sorround in which i never loose more than 2-3 probes. When his reinforcement is there my Zealot is, too.
+1 This is gold, thanks! I usually win with probes, but getting the surround determines how much I lose.
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Btw. I assume you are all walling off with your gateways at the ramp. Do you pull your probes to the front when the zerglings are approaching? Because otherways they'll be able to kill one and even two pylons before the first zealot pops out of a 12 gateway.
Because I find it very hard, almost impossible to defend with my probes at the ramp without losing most of them. You can't even utilize mineral walking very well from this position.
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On September 27 2010 03:53 Merlinius wrote:
Btw. I assume you are all walling off with your gateways at the ramp. Do you pull your probes to the front when the zerglings are approaching? Because otherways they'll be able to kill one and even two pylons before the first zealot pops out of a 12 gateway.
Because I find it very hard, almost impossible to defend with my probes at the ramp without losing most of them. You can't even utilize mineral walking very well from this position.
As long as your pylon isn't part of your wall, you should be fine. I keep mine hung back just a little so If the lings run in to focus my pylon down, I can surround the lings(and pylon) with probes.
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I practiced a bit with a friend today. I tried to go for a 12 gateway, followed by a 14 gateway, and defended with my probes until the first zealot warped in. He decided to go for the pylons powering my gateways and was successful most of the time. I found it very hard to stop the rush with my probes. Of course, my micro is pretty bad. Anyways, I uploaded two replays. Maybe someone can have a look and tell me which awful mistakes I made and why I deserve to lose 
I included a win and a loss. Unfortunately I lost more often than not  Was it just that I pulled my probes too late in the first game? Or did I make a serious mistake with my build beforehand?
Loss:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152472.jpg)
Win:
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-152470.jpg)
How many probes am I supposed to be pulling if he attacks my front pylon(s)?
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@Merlinius:
[General Tips]
1) When you are at 9/10 supply, and have 50 minerals, pull one probe out, and walk towards the ramp and build a pylon. Right when it hits 100 minerals, plop it right down.
2) I usually go for a 13 gate, but 12 gate works. Once again, when you have 100 minerals, start walking the probe, and building the gateway.
[Possible Decision Choices]
1) I like how you decided to build the gateway. I realized that since a Gateway > Forge because of its building hitpoints, a Gateway makes a nicer walloff than Forge. You could also plop down another pylon, but that might be too weak.
[What I think You Could Have Done]
1) You pulled off probes too late. What you should have done is this if you're safe:
a) That drone you went to scout. Keep it in the base just to make sure when his 6 zerglings come out. When they do (and they'll end up killing your probe), pull off your drones.
b) At this point, we know this much: He has around 7 or 8 drones, and you already have at least 14 probes. This means that mathematically, you can pull up to 6 probes FOR SURE. (See how you're guaranteed to be economically equal if you have 8 probes mining and he has 8 drones mining?)
c) If you wish, pull off more than 6 probes, and at that point, his zerglings should kill off not all your probes, and when you have a zealot, feel free to send your walling probes back to mine.
d) Why did you pull your probes back? They're supposed to be sacraficed so he doesn't get into the base to wreck harvoc. That's why your wall exists. And then the second wave, you chose to pull them back again?!? Not the right decision. Press Hold position, RIGHT THERE, and the worst decision you made is you lose all your probes that you used to wall off ... until your zealot comes out.
Which means, you'll still be economically at least as good as the zerg player~
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On September 27 2010 06:46 Merlinius wrote:I practiced a bit with a friend today. I tried to go for a 12 gateway, followed by a 14 gateway, and defended with my probes until the first zealot warped in. He decided to go for the pylons powering my gateways and was successful most of the time. I found it very hard to stop the rush with my probes. Of course, my micro is pretty bad. Anyways, I uploaded two replays. Maybe someone can have a look and tell me which awful mistakes I made and why I deserve to lose
I'm only watching the loss, but:
Your first pylon is 45 minerals and about 8 seconds late, and your gateway is another couple seconds late.
I don't like building the second gateway. You really need a second pylon to power the gate in case the lings manage to kill a pylon. If you had built a second pylon before the second gateway, you would have had a zealot out in plenty of time to hold the rush off. That gate serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever other than to act as a mineral sink. It's not blocking the ramp, because you don't have zealots to hold position, and its not building more zealots because you don't have enough money due to the fact that you're having to pull probes. No, because Pulling probes sooner would have helped as well.
Most importantly, the very first thing you should to do when your gateway finishes is build a zealot. In this case, it would have just made you lose faster, because you wouldn't have been able to rebuild a pylon, but that's because you built a second unnecessary gateway instead of the life-saving pylon.
Look at the replay at 3:18, which is where the first zealot would have been produced had you been able to start it as soon as the gateway was finished, even if you only used one chronoboost for the zealot. (It takes a little more than one chronoboost to fully boost a zealot, but one chrono will cut 10 seconds off the build time) At that point, you had killed the first wave, had enough minerals to immediately start another zealot, and were ahead by 5 workers, although only 6 of them were actually mining.
If you insert a zealot into the game at that point, it should be pretty clear that you *easily* win. In fact, if your first zealot hits at 3:18, your second will come at 3:46. If you look at that time, you'd have 2 zealots fighting 4 lings, which means you don't even need probes to help fight anymore, and even fighting zealot-less, you still had a 13 to 7 worker lead.
Take another 10 seconds off that from your early game delays, and have 2 pylons instead of 1, and your zealot is there in time to help kill the first 6 lings, meaning you'll take even fewer probe losses.
First of all, fix your early game. 8-10 seconds is a pretty big delay.
Second, double-power your first gateway. ALWAYS.
*edit*
Decided to look at the replay where you won just too see what you did better.
Your pylon and gateway placement timings were much better this game, but still slightly delayed, and I still think the second gateway before your second pylon is both unnecessary and dangerous.
A quick word about pylon placement. I *really* like your pylon placment, and I think this is one of the best ways to block your ramp, leaving just enough room for a gate + gate or gate + cyber. One thing you might want to play around with though, that I've been liking quite a lot. If you put the pylon right up against the edge, behind where your first gate is going to go, it's slightly better protected, and allows you to very easily warp units onto the low ground.
I also really don't like the scout on 9, but that's more of a personal preference thing. I realize a lot of people want to scout a 6pool ASAP, but realistically, the only thing you have to change is making sure you chrono a zealot first instead, if you were planning on getting a core the instant the gateway is finished. Scouting with your gate probe instead the pylon probe gives you the info you need in plenty of time. Still, scouting with the pylon probe is pretty popular, but I think the only reason to do that is if you're going to harass with it. Which might actually be a *really* good idea vs a 6pool. You have a pretty small window, but if you manage to even get one or two drones to pull off the mineral line to chase you off, that's a HUGE hit to the already crippled zerg economy, and you have about a 40 second window where you should be able to either kill a drone, or force them to deal with your probe. With that in mind, I would say either delay the scout, or if you insist on scouting on 9, harass his workers. Worker harassment will be much more painful for a 6pool than it will for a more standard zerg build.
There were also a number of other mistakes in this game:
You left your scouting probe in the middle of the map.
Your first gate was idle for a full 15 seconds, even though you had minerals to afford a zealot from the time it first finished. That first zealot is HUGE in holding off a 6 pool. Get it out ASAP.
As I already mentioned, but I really think it bears reinforcing, I still think the second gate is unnecessary. If you have the minerals, you can always throw it down later to help block, because you don't actually need it to be finished, you just need it to be in the way.
In the fight agaisnt the first 6 lings while they were near your pylons, you lost a probe or two that you didn't have to lose. Pull probes out of the fight when they've lost their shields if at all possible. I realize this is *really* hard, but that's how you beat a 6 pool without probe losses.
When the 3 remaining lings moved to your mine, you had 7 probes (technically 8, including the scout probe sitting in the middle of the map) doing absolutely nothing. Using those probes to help finish the remaining 3 lings almost certainly prevents the one extra probe loss you took at your mineral line, and either kills those 3 lings or chases them off your mineral line.
You took 2 more probe losses after that, leaving you at an 11 to 7 advantage. At that point, you can safely put all your probes back to work, and from there you win the game pretty easily.
Maybe the fact that you won this game relatively easily, despite the fact that you still made rather a number of small mistakes and one ridiculously large mistake (a 15 second delay on your first zealot is absolutely gigantic here), will quell the "omg6poolonsteppes" whining once and for all.
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Interesting post. I typically use 2gw as well to block. I have only been 6 pooled a few times though with mixed results so I don't really have a "here's exactly what i'm going to do" strategy. Cannon Forge seems decent, but if zerg doesn't attack (or more likely just pulls back as soon as he sees a cannon) and just powers drones he'd make up for the 6 pool pretty easily and still have his zerglings.
@Merlinius I watched that first replay, I'd try to pull 3-4 probes and put them on hold at the choke point. That way the zerglings don't just waltz in through the opening, and even if they munch your drones and get through to hit the pylons it's much more delayed. I believe the probes can hold off the lings till the zealot appears?
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On September 28 2010 03:34 Nasdrova wrote:
Interesting post. I typically use 2gw as well to block.
If you already know a 6pool is coming, what exactly are you trying to block? You won't have a zealot in time, and as Merlinius' first replay shows, getting the gateway double-powered is much more important than blocking the ramp, because if the lings do go for pylons, and you're slow bringing probes, you're gate is going to get unpowered.
And to be perfectly honest, before you have a zealot, having the ramp choked with 2 buildings does you absolutely no good anyway. Against a 6pool, you're not going to have a zealot in time, and against anything else, you have plenty of time to block with a second building at a normal time, as well as get a zealot to hold the choke if necessary.
I do like his pylon/gateway placement much better than the typical block that exposes the pylon at the base of the ramp. You don't have the ramp blocked until the second building (gate or cybercore), but it's a much more solid block.
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Honestly, I'd really like to start using merlinius' second replay as a perfect example of how you can screw up pretty significantly, getting the first zealot a full 15 seconds later than it should have come, and *still* manage to hold off a 6 pool on steppes.
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On September 28 2010 04:02 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 03:34 Nasdrova wrote:
Interesting post. I typically use 2gw as well to block.
If you already know a 6pool is coming, what exactly are you trying to block? You won't have a zealot in time, and as Merlinius' first replay shows, getting the gateway double-powered is much more important than blocking the ramp, because if the lings do go for pylons, and you're slow bringing probes, you're gate is going to get unpowered. And to be perfectly honest, before you have a zealot, having the ramp choked with 2 buildings does you absolutely no good anyway. Against a 6pool, you're not going to have a zealot in time, and against anything else, you have plenty of time to block with a second building at a normal time, as well as get a zealot to hold the choke if necessary. I do like his pylon/gateway placement much better than the typical block that exposes the pylon at the base of the ramp. You don't have the ramp blocked until the second building (gate or cybercore), but it's a much more solid block.
I typically put a pylon where Melinius does every time against zerg, then if I see an early pool I drop the second gateway then start blocking the entrance with probes.
Blocking with 2 buildings properly gives the zerglings only a very small opening which can be blocked with one unit ( probe or zealot when it arrives ).
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On September 28 2010 04:13 Nasdrova wrote:
I typically put a pylon where Melinius does every time against zerg, then if I see an early pool I drop the second gateway then start blocking the entrance with probes.
Blocking with 2 buildings properly gives the zerglings only a very small opening which can be blocked with one unit ( probe or zealot when it arrives ).
Why? What is the block gaining you?
Lings will go through a blocking probe in notime flat, leaving you down one probe that you didn't need to lose, and the lings still get through mere seconds later. If you have a delayed second pylon (which you will if you put the second gate down first), you run the risk of having your gates depowered.
There simply is no need to try to keep the first 6 lings out of your base, as long as you're double-powered. If the lings go for your workers, use all your probes to surround and kill them, while trying to micro hurt probes out and back in, and if the lings go for pylons, do exactly what merlinius did, and leave 5-6 workers mining, and pull the rest to attack the lings while they're hitting the pylons, making sure to pull back if the lings turn around and start attacking probes instead. All you have to do is delay til your first zealot is out, and the game is an easy win.
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On September 28 2010 04:19 Skrag wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2010 04:13 Nasdrova wrote:
I typically put a pylon where Melinius does every time against zerg, then if I see an early pool I drop the second gateway then start blocking the entrance with probes.
Blocking with 2 buildings properly gives the zerglings only a very small opening which can be blocked with one unit ( probe or zealot when it arrives ).
Why? What is the block gaining you?
Time to get the zealot out, and i'm not just pulling one drone I am suggesting pulling 3. Also the drones can attack and possibly take out a zergling or two while trying to get through the choke.
What i'm hearing you say is I should just let the zerglings into my base. If they go for your pylons and you have 2 you can get your zealot out in time to deal with it, and if and if they go for your probes you just lose a few probes?
All i'm suggesting is an alternative to try. Maybe someone can test this and post a couple replays?
One where you use 3 probes + 2 gw to block the entrance ( attacking with probes while they block ), and one where you just let them come into your base and attack your probes. I'd love to see which one is easier to micro and lose less probes?
I'll try to do it myself if one of my practice partners comes on.
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Why does everyone love walling so much?
My problem with walling at the ramp is that all your production structures are ages away from your mineral line, making it so hard for the zealots to get back to your minerals. Sure you can stop any more lings once you get the zealot wall up but meh. I'd rather do it the awesome way.
I build my shit right next to my nexus, and I wall off one side of my mineral line never ever my ramp. I hate ramp walls. The lings are forced to go down the side I want them to. From there I can do the probe surround AND my zealots are coming out right at my mineral line already. With the half mineral wall off it means that the lings get trapped against that side of the wall and I only have to defend one part of my base.
I just follow a standard build. Except with a heavy focus on Zealots and a few stalkers once I have enough Z to hold the lings. I just basically counter-push the moment am comfortable to.
I stole this idea from HuK in one of his games against Adelscott.
I havent lost to a 6pool in ages but I am only playing at platinum level.
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How does a forge first give the Z a chance to come back? He has six workers to your 15 if he seven pooled, and only 5 if he 6 pooled. You will have triple the income of the z after the rush fails. You can chrono probes, get down your gateway+core, and shoot past him techwise. Zerg won't have enough workers to support 2 hatch drones even if he expands and he doesn't have the 300 minerals to expand anyways. You can basically guarantee that if you rush for phoenixes/void rays without cutting probes he won't have anti-air. Or you can get 3 gates up and mass zealots and expand with your cannons covering the ramp. If you wall in with a pylon it's no big deal if you have to kill it to get out, it served its purpose.
Imagine if the game started with Z having 6 lings, 6 drones, a hatch, an OL, and a spawning pool while toss had 15 probes, a forge, 2 pylons, 1 cannon, and 1 gateway. I wouldn't consider that a very fair fight for the Z in any way.
Zerg is not this unstoppable expanding force that if you leave it alone for 3 minutes it will win the game automatically. It actually needs a good number of workers to build a lot of workers and can grow exponentially, but when you only have 6 workers exponential growth isn't that impressive.
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On September 28 2010 04:34 Nasdrova wrote:
Time to get the zealot out, and i'm not just pulling one drone I am suggesting pulling 3. Also the drones can attack and possibly take out a zergling or two while trying to get through the choke.
Blocking probes won't be able to hold long enough for the zealot. They simply die too fast, and I seriously doubt you even come close to killing one ling. I'd love to see a replay proving me wrong though.
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On September 28 2010 04:40 DavidMcF wrote:
Why does everyone love walling so much?
My problem with walling at the ramp is that all your production structures are ages away from your mineral line, making it so hard for the zealots to get back to your minerals. Sure you can stop any more lings once you get the zealot wall up but meh. I'd rather do it the awesome way.
I build my shit right next to my nexus, and I wall off one side of my mineral line never ever my ramp. I hate ramp walls. The lings are forced to go down the side I want them to. From there I can do the probe surround AND my zealots are coming out right at my mineral line already. With the half mineral wall off it means that the lings get trapped against that side of the wall and I only have to defend one part of my base.
I just follow a standard build. Except with a heavy focus on Zealots and a few stalkers once I have enough Z to hold the lings. I just basically counter-push the moment am comfortable to.
I stole this idea from HuK in one of his games against Adelscott.
I havent lost to a 6pool in ages but I am only playing at platinum level.
Indeed you can hold at your mineral line against an early pool with your buildings by your nexus, but it is quite a bit harder to hold off a gas before pool speedling all-in (standard opening, reactive all-in against him scouting you not walling off). If you can manage it might be worth it though as dealing with muta harass bouncing between your main and natural while streaming your units single file through a choke is quite difficult.
On September 28 2010 04:41 Kikuichimonji wrote:
How does a forge first give the Z a chance to come back? He has six workers to your 15 if he seven pooled,
He has 9 workers if he 7 pooled and has a queen on the way shortly after his initial lings which can pretty readily catch him up. Since you went forge and he has lings out already he has complete map control, can drone up quickly and expand and get back into a reasonable position.
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On September 28 2010 05:34 Jaeger wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2010 04:40 DavidMcF wrote:
Why does everyone love walling so much?
My problem with walling at the ramp is that all your production structures are ages away from your mineral line, making it so hard for the zealots to get back to your minerals. Sure you can stop any more lings once you get the zealot wall up but meh. I'd rather do it the awesome way.
I build my shit right next to my nexus, and I wall off one side of my mineral line never ever my ramp. I hate ramp walls. The lings are forced to go down the side I want them to. From there I can do the probe surround AND my zealots are coming out right at my mineral line already. With the half mineral wall off it means that the lings get trapped against that side of the wall and I only have to defend one part of my base.
I just follow a standard build. Except with a heavy focus on Zealots and a few stalkers once I have enough Z to hold the lings. I just basically counter-push the moment am comfortable to.
I stole this idea from HuK in one of his games against Adelscott.
I havent lost to a 6pool in ages but I am only playing at platinum level. Indeed you can hold at your mineral line against an early pool with your buildings by your nexus, but it is quite a bit harder to hold off a gas before pool speedling all-in (standard opening, reactive all-in against him scouting you not walling off). If you can manage it might be worth it though as dealing with muta harass bouncing between your main and natural while streaming your units single file through a choke is quite difficult.
Ah yeah I agree, but the idea is if the zerg runs his lings into your mineral line, they can only get out one way - the way they came in. So you do have them trapped. Obviously some maps make this A LOT harder than others, but I do think its a pretty viable tactic. I never wall in any of my match ups and it does me alright I think 
I personally dont think walls ever decide a winner or loser in a game. I will obviously have to play against the early speedlings a bit more since I dont have much experience with that. I'll get my mate to try it.
Cheers!
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Thanks for all your advice. I try to get the pylon, zealot etc. all exactly on time and I try not to leave any probes idle in the middle of my base, and not to forget about the scout, but it doesn't always work out that well
I will test this without building the second gateway. I think this is a good idea. I can't really use both of them at this point anyway.
I also tried blocking the chokepoint with probes but this results in lots of probe losses and the zerglings get inside pretty fast anyway.
This might be pretty obvious, but I found that the probe micro (= pulling damaged probes) gets a lot easier when I make good use of zooming in. Anyone who's not already doing this, should give it a try. Needless to say, health bars should be turned on at all times.
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On September 25 2010 08:20 Darthturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2010 01:41 Skrag wrote:On September 24 2010 12:25 Darthturtle wrote:
You forget that an early pool doesn't just mean early lings. It also means early queen. Two rounds(a minute and twenty seconds) of larvae injected droning off one hatch is enough to catch up to the toss, and a toss that went forge/cannon is committed to sitting on his godawful infrastructure. Have you ever actually done a 6 pool? I mean, played zerg and 6pooled somebody? If you use all the available larvae for lings and overlords when 6 pooling, it takes about 15 and a half years of gametime to build up 150 minerals for the queen. You simply don't have enough workers bringing in minerals to do jack shit for a really long time. There is no way in hell the zerg is going to be able to afford to actually use those two rounds of injected larvae. Absolutely wrong. You don't have minerals for drones and OLs if you're spamming lings. You start droning the moment you see the deadwall. By the time the 6 lings reaches his base, you're at 10/18, 250 minerals. Drone thrice, queen as soon as possible, then drone. By ~4:20, your queen is out and you're already looking to take the expo. This is about 20/26. After the initial 6 lings, you're not making more lings. You have plenty of money.
Im confused here, you open up with a 6 pool then your at 10/18 (6 drones 6 lings and a drone building. You spend the next 150 on a queen and then you wait 50 secs for her to spawn while making more drones, (four roughly) and 100 on an OL then you spend the next 300 plus a drone making an expo while you vomit on your hatch. You then build 4 more drones wokring yourself up to 20/26, 2 from queen, 3 from lings, and 15 from drones.
So basically you've spent
150m (queen)
450m (drones)
100m (overlord)
300m (hatch)
To catch up to where your opponent was and your military consists of 6 lings.
Meanwhile your protoss opponent. ( who has had a constant income of 2x as many minerals as you. Due to having 14 probes when you had 7 and 18 when you had 10) has made approximately 2000m worth of mineral income.
Lets assume that they spent 150m on 2 assimilators, 150 on cy core, 300 on 2 more gates, 200 on a robo facility and 100 on weapons upgrades. That leaves 1100 minerals minus 300 for the probes for each gas and 700 for zealots.
This is at the point where you are trying to build and saturate an expansion you dont need?
I consistantly win games against FE zergs where their mineral score is around 18,050 and mine is 17,950. So suffice to say that second expansion isn't generating that much more income until it is fully saturated.
Bottom line, the toss player has a bunch of zealots/stalkers sentries, and he builds an observer off of that robo and he sees you on 2 bases with 2 spinal crawlers and 12 lings he is going to pop that cannon and crush you.
The strategy is called 6 pool all in for a reason. It is an all in strategy that makes the game nigh unwinable against anyone who is even close to your skill level if they quash the ling rush.
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EPT
