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For the life of my I can't understand why anyone needs help or advice defeating a 6 pool.
by the time he gets his first 6 lings to you you'll probably have 14 probes
14 probes > 6 lings....and the 11 or 12 you have left after the fight is still more than the 7 or 9 drones he has.
Simple. Pull drones...get the surround, keep working to get that blocking zealot out...when the initial lings die go back to mining and building more probes...if he sends more..pull more probes and whatever zealots you have
cannons are not necessary
the exception being if its an all in 6 pool with full drone pull as well. This can be very problematic and largely will come down to drone/probe/ling micro
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If you watch the replays, Fingo cuts probes to throw down the forge AFTER he scouts a 6 pool. This is even worse than just randomly going forge first, since he could've squeezed out at least one probe and gotten the forge at the exact same timing.
Scouting a deadwall is a perfect chance to drone up and expo fast. With early lings, you can stop a one-gate zealot counter and easily catch up and surpass the one-base toss. Especially since he wasted 350 on cannon/forge, and took an extremely late gate(two and a half minutes into the game, are you serious?). Even macroing back up from six-pool, six-eight lings is easy, since you have queens, and the toss just cut a ton of stuff.
Basically, this build is terrible against a zerg that decides to go directly into a macro game. You have cannons, but no ability to get out of your own base. Zerg is free to get three base, defend with just lings, and you have no way to push out to get an expo yourself.
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On September 24 2010 10:20 Goobus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 10:19 tru_power22 wrote:
Or you could micro your probes, try dropping a 13 gate at the ramp and when you see the zerlings coming pull workers to block the choke and click the minerals to bring them back if they get to low. Keep reinforcing till your zealot finishes. That results in far too many probe losses =\ This way is the cleanest way we found to do it.
Actually his way results in no losses. Since drones can walk through each other while they are gathering minerals, the first probe can eat 3 or 4 shots then you should click the minerals and your next probe is now the blocker. Keep the micro up and you wont lose any
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Darth- A 6 pooling zerg is not going into a macro game. If he chooses not to attack when he sees the walloff he will be down significant workers, while the protoss is down 100 minerals (pylon to destroy to leave base).
Cyrus- It isn't this simple. You won't just "get the surround" versus a zerg who has a mouse. Keep in mind the lings can micro as well. There is a reason this strategy is gaining popularity in top level play. This being said, if you were up for it, I'd love to see this flawless probe micro defense.
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Fingo!!! It's me rasengan, anyways, @cyrusdm, you will lose way too many probes if you do that -.-;;
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On September 24 2010 12:11 FreeZEternal wrote:
Fingo!!! It's me rasengan, anyways, @cyrusdm, you will lose way too many probes if you do that -.-;;
Exactly. This is the point I keep making. What's the point of surviving a 6 pool if you're even with the zerg by the end of it? He can just play as usual then. Unless he's dumb and gg's.
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On September 24 2010 12:04 Fingo wrote:
Darth- A 6 pooling zerg is not going into a macro game. If he chooses not to attack when he sees the walloff he will be down significant workers, while the protoss is down 100 minerals (pylon to destroy to leave base).
In your specific replay, you walled with forge, cannon, and gateway. You can't expand quickly for one plain reason - you can't get out of your base. If you kill the cannon, you risk a runby. Killing the gateway is an obvious no-no. Killing the forge means no cannons at your expo. You can't expect to hold with just one gate worth of slow-zealots
You forget that an early pool doesn't just mean early lings. It also means early queen. Two rounds(a minute and twenty seconds) of larvae injected droning off one hatch is enough to catch up to the toss, and a toss that went forge/cannon is committed to sitting on his godawful infrastructure. If you take a second gate, you delay core even harder. If you core, forget about pushing out in the next six/seven minutes, you won't have an army.
If you deadwall, even as a sixpool, I will absolutely go into a macro game. Plain and simple. There is no reason for me to not abuse the 350 minerals you basically threw down the toilet, and the horrible field position. You're giving up map control and an expo's worth of minerals. I'm surprised you don't just GG right there.
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United States5544 Posts
On September 24 2010 12:04 Fingo wrote:
Darth- A 6 pooling zerg is not going into a macro game. If he chooses not to attack when he sees the walloff he will be down significant workers, while the protoss is down 100 minerals (pylon to destroy to leave base).
Cyrus- It isn't this simple. You won't just "get the surround" versus a zerg who has a mouse. Keep in mind the lings can micro as well. There is a reason this strategy is gaining popularity in top level play. This being said, if you were up for it, I'd love to see this flawless probe micro defense.
Good players might, he's doing damage to you just by making you do that build. He can drone like crazy when he sees your build.
Also, you are putting yourself behind by cutting probes any time he doesn't 6 pool.
Do a normal build, take a few probe losses, win the game, and don't cripple yourself against anything that's not a 6 pool.
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its ok to lose 1 or 2 probes the zerg saced a lot of his econ to 6 pool you
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On September 24 2010 12:25 Darthturtle wrote:
You forget that an early pool doesn't just mean early lings. It also means early queen. Two rounds(a minute and twenty seconds) of larvae injected droning off one hatch is enough to catch up to the toss, and a toss that went forge/cannon is committed to sitting on his godawful infrastructure. If you take a second gate, you delay core even harder. If you core, forget about pushing out in the next six/seven minutes, you won't have an army.
Early queen 6pools are significantly easier to defend against than no-queen all-ins. 2 rounds of larva injection is 57 seconds for 14 drones max (I think probably less), which is 11 more than the Protoss can make non-chronoboosted in the same time. If you do this, you are not making any offensive units for an entire minute, while the Protoss is. You are not managing an expo AND permanent drone production from constant injections for quite a while, and with a less ridiculous wall than the one proposed in the OP the protoss can move out at a cost of 100 minerals, drop a cannon or two with the nexus, and basically be safe until you commit to making units again.
Deadwalls are the most consistent way to handle a 6pool, and the only way to handle a completely all-in 6pool. If that ends up making you only "even" with the zerg, I'll take that any day over a strategy that will fail sometimes and cost you the game instantly, and sometimes will put you significantly ahead.
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10 gate + probe block isn't a 100% strategy. This forge build is. For those of you who are complaining that it's "not normal" or whatever, this build order can be adapted so that it's as normal as possible, until you manage to get a scout in (i.e. Chrono 10th/11th probe, or 10 gate/cancel into forge+gate block). This is a 100% strategy. You will win against a 6 pool 100% of the time, all-in with drones or not. That's the point. There's no uncertainty.
After you fend it off this way, you're at 15 probes to his 7 drones. Even if you're slightly behind from doing this build, you can simply go about your business, and push out with 2 gate zealots and kill him shortly after, or go 4 gate or whatever you want, if he hasn't gg'd by then. There is no way he is recovering from a 8 worker deficit. Hell, a 2 gate followup would wreck him.
Those of you who are 10-gating and using probes to block can continue to lose SOME percentage of the time. If I played toss, I'd rather take my 100% win-rate vs 6 pool, tyvm.
TL;DR: This works 100% of the time.
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On September 24 2010 11:47 Darthturtle wrote:
If you watch the replays, Fingo cuts probes to throw down the forge AFTER he scouts a 6 pool. This is even worse than just randomly going forge first, since he could've squeezed out at least one probe and gotten the forge at the exact same timing.
Scouting a deadwall is a perfect chance to drone up and expo fast. With early lings, you can stop a one-gate zealot counter and easily catch up and surpass the one-base toss. Especially since he wasted 350 on cannon/forge, and took an extremely late gate(two and a half minutes into the game, are you serious?). Even macroing back up from six-pool, six-eight lings is easy, since you have queens, and the toss just cut a ton of stuff.
Basically, this build is terrible against a zerg that decides to go directly into a macro game. You have cannons, but no ability to get out of your own base. Zerg is free to get three base, defend with just lings, and you have no way to push out to get an expo yourself.
whats stopping him from scouting he is droning and break down his wall?? and there is no way he can stop a four-gate with 7 drones to 14 probes. taking down a pylong takes but all of 1 second with 4 gate units
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On September 24 2010 11:36 Yilar wrote:
Couldn't you just micro over the gateway location, or send the following drone right after? There is no need for these drones in terms of getting the first 6 lings anyway.
Actually if you pull a drone after the new drone is done and move in with 2 drones you can completely shut down his wall build. It takes almost 10 seconds to get probes from the mineral line upto the wall and even more time to kill the actual drones, which should ruin the timing on wall build vs ling arrival.
If you think about how this would actually go down. Your doing a six pool and he scouts it, so you decide instead of leaving your drones to mine to send to random drones up to stop a wall that may or may not be there depending on if he's doing this build or not. If he doesn't do this build it just puts you even further behind in worker count, if you don't kill him and just take down some probes.
I'm just pointing out that sending the 2 drones is not something you think of if your doing a 6 pool.
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Why don't you block the middle position with the canon? That way only 1 ling can be hitting it at any point, and you can always just bust it when you've got your warpgates running and push out for the win.
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I watched a game recently where Dimaga 6pooled White-Ra, and what Ra did was just throw down another pylon to fully block off the ramp with buildings until the chronoboosted zealot finished. He also had time to put down a forge and a cannon before the lings could do anything. It seemed to work pretty well.
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United States5544 Posts
Cutting probe 11 + 12 is unacceptable for a "just in case he 6 pools" scenario. Since the 10 gate build is 10 pylon, you also don't scout in time for the right 10 gate timing.
The only way this build can be considered good is if it works if you 12 forge, because that's when your scout arrives at the zerg, when you are at 12 food (if you were 10 gating, your gate would already be started, so adjusting into an unoptimal 10 gate is also pretty bad).
It also only works on Steppes, Metal close and LT close, because otherwise your scout doesn't arrive in time.
So replays of 12 forge working (or a 10 forge with a canceled gateway since you need to cancel your gateway if you were going 10 gate), or it's not a viable strategy. Also you should adjust your title to How to stop 6 pool on Steppes, Metal close or LT close.
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On September 24 2010 12:04 Fingo wrote:
Cyrus- It isn't this simple. You won't just "get the surround" versus a zerg who has a mouse. Keep in mind the lings can micro as well. There is a reason this strategy is gaining popularity in top level play. This being said, if you were up for it, I'd love to see this flawless probe micro defense.
As a zerg I've gotten very used to dealing with 6 pools...granted its different as a toss, but in both situations you're going to want to involve your harvestors. probes > drones, and drones can do it... so the key is going to getting the surround on the lings (easy - lings wont have speed and you'll have 2x the #'s) while keeping your gateways pylon safe. Let the pylon take some hits then engage with your probes..as he engages your probes pull back a bit...if he chases your probes you a)go for the surround b) have a safe pylon and a zealot still on the way.
Bottom line is if he 6 pools and manages to kill 4 probes..which would be great ling micro and terrible probe micro...but if the toss lost 4 probes..he'd still be at 10 or 11 while the zerg is on 7 or 8 drones.
Don't screw your build by preparing for something like the 6 ling. Just build your initial gate one or max two supply early on steppes and you can come out ahead regardless of losing a couple probes.
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On September 24 2010 12:11 FreeZEternal wrote:
Fingo!!! It's me rasengan, anyways, @cyrusdm, you will lose way too many probes if you do that -.-;;
14 probes will win vs 6 lings with probably 12 probes. more if you're good at seleting the probes that are losing hull and selecting them to go back to harvesting - thus escaping the ball of probes behind them.
if 14 drones can stop a 6 pool why cant 14 probes
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Im mid-high Dia player and never had big troubles with 6pool. Just scout it, go Forge and/or Wall in and gg ... Funny someone invested so much time on that :D
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EPT
