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like the idea of this, but I'd make a few changes:
• scout earlier (like 7 scout), so you can lay down the forge ASAP if you know you have to
• there's 3 scenarios:
1) no 6/7 pool: because you scouted earlier you can just play normal, but your build will be slightly off, because you lost mining time
2) they 6/7 pool and commit: because you scouted earlier, your forge is up sooner and you should be fine
3) they 6/7 pooled but didn't commit once they saw your wall, and droned up instead: as you have the forge already, seems like you could transition well into a 5 warpgate +1 attack push. It'll be weaker than the optimised build of course, but it makes use of the structures you allready have and will be difficult to deal with for the zerg
Also, people keep saying probes beat 6/7 pools hands down. Well, I think those zergs are bad. If I have 6 lings in your base I don't have to kill that many probes. If I can surround a stray one and kill it, I will. But if I can't I'll just run around your base in circles, keeping you from mining minerals and picking off probes/pylons whenever I can.
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What do you do vs 6pool on a 4player map where you don't scout them first?
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stopping 6pool is very easy, even on steppes.
just use the normal build: send a scout just after building a 9 pylon, then gateway 12. if you see low drone count and spawning build: stop making probes. make 2nd gateway (on 12 aswell), which leaves u 1square choke.
and 3rd gateway to completely wall off. cb 1st zealot, make a pylon. keep making zealots, cancel 3rd gateway and simply win it :<
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On September 24 2010 18:16 Shikyo wrote:
What do you do vs 6pool on a 4player map where you don't scout them first?
who 6 pools on a 4 player map? They'll have to scout you aswell, so sounds like pure luck to me.
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On September 24 2010 18:19 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:16 Shikyo wrote:
What do you do vs 6pool on a 4player map where you don't scout them first? who 6 pools on a 4 player map? They'll have to scout you aswell, so sounds like pure luck to me.
imo 6pool is only viable on a 4player map and completely useless on a 2player map because they can instantly scout it.
You scout the first position with an overlord, scout with a drone right as you begin your lings, and ta-da. Not reliant on luck at all.
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On September 24 2010 18:23 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:19 mathemagician1986 wrote:On September 24 2010 18:16 Shikyo wrote:
What do you do vs 6pool on a 4player map where you don't scout them first? who 6 pools on a 4 player map? They'll have to scout you aswell, so sounds like pure luck to me. imo 6pool is only viable on a 4player map and completely useless on a 2player map because they can instantly scout it. You scout the first position with an overlord, scout with a drone right as you begin your lings, and ta-da. Not reliant on luck at all.
still depends on positions though, on cross positions I think a standard build might even hold, not sure though.
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On September 24 2010 12:55 Iankill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 11:36 Yilar wrote:
Couldn't you just micro over the gateway location, or send the following drone right after? There is no need for these drones in terms of getting the first 6 lings anyway.
Actually if you pull a drone after the new drone is done and move in with 2 drones you can completely shut down his wall build. It takes almost 10 seconds to get probes from the mineral line upto the wall and even more time to kill the actual drones, which should ruin the timing on wall build vs ling arrival. If you think about how this would actually go down. Your doing a six pool and he scouts it, so you decide instead of leaving your drones to mine to send to random drones up to stop a wall that may or may not be there depending on if he's doing this build or not. If he doesn't do this build it just puts you even further behind in worker count, if you don't kill him and just take down some probes. I'm just pointing out that sending the 2 drones is not something you think of if your doing a 6 pool.
6 pool is pretty much an all in move, if your initial rush is defeated you've pretty much lost. Why wouldn't you pull 2 drones to stop a wall in, if it can make all the difference? While I'm to lazy to test it, I'm sure you could break the wall with just 2 drones with micro and good timing, and it should make it a lot more interesting.
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what do u do about the next wave of lings?
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On September 24 2010 18:19 crun wrote:
stopping 6pool is very easy, even on steppes.
just use the normal build: send a scout just after building a 9 pylon, then gateway 12. if you see low drone count and spawning build: stop making probes. make 2nd gateway (on 12 aswell), which leaves u 1square choke.
and 3rd gateway to completely wall off. cb 1st zealot, make a pylon. keep making zealots, cancel 3rd gateway and simply win it :<
this doesnt work now.
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this doesnt work now.
and may i know why? cuz i tested in after patch and still works, its also easier to kill building-blocking drones too
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On September 24 2010 18:39 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 18:23 Shikyo wrote:On September 24 2010 18:19 mathemagician1986 wrote:On September 24 2010 18:16 Shikyo wrote:
What do you do vs 6pool on a 4player map where you don't scout them first? who 6 pools on a 4 player map? They'll have to scout you aswell, so sounds like pure luck to me. imo 6pool is only viable on a 4player map and completely useless on a 2player map because they can instantly scout it. You scout the first position with an overlord, scout with a drone right as you begin your lings, and ta-da. Not reliant on luck at all. still depends on positions though, on cross positions I think a standard build might even hold, not sure though.
Standard build always holds if you scout it.
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On September 24 2010 12:54 Akuemon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 11:47 Darthturtle wrote:
If you watch the replays, Fingo cuts probes to throw down the forge AFTER he scouts a 6 pool. This is even worse than just randomly going forge first, since he could've squeezed out at least one probe and gotten the forge at the exact same timing.
Scouting a deadwall is a perfect chance to drone up and expo fast. With early lings, you can stop a one-gate zealot counter and easily catch up and surpass the one-base toss. Especially since he wasted 350 on cannon/forge, and took an extremely late gate(two and a half minutes into the game, are you serious?). Even macroing back up from six-pool, six-eight lings is easy, since you have queens, and the toss just cut a ton of stuff.
Basically, this build is terrible against a zerg that decides to go directly into a macro game. You have cannons, but no ability to get out of your own base. Zerg is free to get three base, defend with just lings, and you have no way to push out to get an expo yourself. whats stopping him from scouting he is droning and break down his wall?? and there is no way he can stop a four-gate with 7 drones to 14 probes. taking down a pylong takes but all of 1 second with 4 gate units
Go actually watch the replays.
He can't scout because he locked himself into his base. He has no probe outside. He has no pylon outside. He's built his zealot INSIDE his wall. He has effectively contained himself.
He doesn't have four gate. He doesn't even have two gate. He has one tremendously late gate, no core, no gas, and no infrastructure.
He NEEDS to one base tech, then, and Zerg does exactly what zerg always does. Expand all over the map and them win with mass units.
If the Protoss tries a 2 gate counterattack - You have the pool already. You can see him push out. Build a single spine crawler and you're defended.
If the protoss tries 4 gate - This will be mildly threatening maybe 7 minutes down the line, due to the fact that he has no tech whatsoever. Build a second spine crawler and you're defended.
As zerg, the two most important things to do are to drone and expand, whenever he gives you a chance. Throwing away 350 minerals, forcing himself into a defensive position, cutting two probes, these all scream please go macro and kill me.
It doesn't matter that zerg is down seven drones. Protoss has NO way to exploit that early window, due to the fact that he's stuck with no tech. He cannot afford to break any building in his wall due to the threat of a runby that he can't scout because he's contained himself. One hatch, one queen is enough to catch up on drone production. Two hatches massdroning is enough to surpass and put yourself into a game-winning lead.
This build is 100% against idiots who see a dead wall and a cannon and decide somehow, that they should break it. It's 0% against two-three base zerg, unless zerg makes a huge blunder like not scouting for a push.
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Kill cannon/pylon plug hole with a single zealot and your entire post is undermined darthturtle.. The toss should be light years ahead in terms of production even with a bunch of minerals tied upto into forge/cannon.
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After scouted a 6 pool i usually do nothing different and stick to my plan. The probes ive got at the point are enough to do a nice sorround and be conomically ahead of the z. Specially if the Zerg goes for my mineral line i consider it an auto win as u can simply clumb ur drones on one mineral patch, give them the oder to go to another and right away a- move them. Out comes a perfect sorround in which i never loose more than 2-3 probes. When his reinforcement is there my Zealot is, too.
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On September 24 2010 20:46 Yilar wrote:
Kill cannon/pylon plug hole with a single zealot and your entire post is undermined darthturtle.. The toss should be light years ahead in terms of production even with a bunch of minerals tied upto into forge/cannon.
Not at all. You still seem to believe that just a probe count advantage equals complete win. It's not. It's one advantage in a very deep game.
In this specific case, the Protoss economy advantage translates to extra minerals, because he has no gas. He can build one of three main things.
1. Gateway - going into a two-gate push. I've already extrapolated on why that's not particularly playable.
2. Core. - Very late, basically about as effective as a normal one-gate core build would be against standard zerg, with the additional hindrance of your wall denying you scouting. You can kill the cannon with one gate zealots, but as also stated before, you fear the runby, so you CAN'T.
3. Extra cannons - lulz.
The probe advantage in this case simply does not translate well enough to guarantee a real advantage. Every starcraft player knows the importance of map control. Every starcraft player knows the importance of expanding. Every starcraft player knows that turtling on one base is met with mass expansion and outmacroing the opponent, because with two or more bases, you will outmacro the opponent.
Go actually read my post. You're still making blind assumptions that don't hold any water. So he breaks down his cannon and plugs with a zealot. Does that change anything? No. He still can't get out of his base, not because he's blocked, but because he has no map control.
In the event that he tries to push, zerg already has pool. Zerg has had pool for a very long time. Spine crawlers will solve any 2-gate push, as long as your initial lings weren't wasted trying to break down a wall. Waiting for core and 4 gate pushing will take enough time that the zerg will outmacro you.
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^After that build he has 10 probes against 7 drones, if the Z scouts this he makes pure drones and an early queen and he's not that far behind to be honest.
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On September 24 2010 16:53 cyrusdm wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 12:04 Fingo wrote:
Cyrus- It isn't this simple. You won't just "get the surround" versus a zerg who has a mouse. Keep in mind the lings can micro as well. There is a reason this strategy is gaining popularity in top level play. This being said, if you were up for it, I'd love to see this flawless probe micro defense. As a zerg I've gotten very used to dealing with 6 pools...granted its different as a toss, but in both situations you're going to want to involve your harvestors. probes > drones, and drones can do it... so the key is going to getting the surround on the lings (easy - lings wont have speed and you'll have 2x the #'s) while keeping your gateways pylon safe. Let the pylon take some hits then engage with your probes..as he engages your probes pull back a bit...if he chases your probes you a)go for the surround b) have a safe pylon and a zealot still on the way. Bottom line is if he 6 pools and manages to kill 4 probes..which would be great ling micro and terrible probe micro...but if the toss lost 4 probes..he'd still be at 10 or 11 while the zerg is on 7 or 8 drones. Don't screw your build by preparing for something like the 6 ling. Just build your initial gate one or max two supply early on steppes and you can come out ahead regardless of losing a couple probes.
Are you on Europe? we could get a game to test it because honestly I don't believe you can do it with just 4 probes lost.
And the debates about protoss being behind after not suffering any losses (regardless of the costs) to 6 pool is just ridiculous. The protoss is miles ahead, you probably didn't play zerg to understand that. Anyway I would like to plau a test game with anyone who thinks otherwise on Europe (cheerio.762)
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I am, although I don't play P =D Would be fun to practice worker micro~
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haven't seen the replay, but when I scout 6-pool I NEVER leave the zerg-base but leave my probe there to see if he actually gets mass-lings; if he is stupid enough to attack my probe I even buy myself a couple more extra seconds; so you'll know when the lings are on the way;
I wouldn't advise going forge first either; 12 gate, later forge and pylon to completely wall-off; put cannons down and start chrono-boosting zealots if he commits; if the attack doesn't come you can cancel the cannons; then you can hack down the pylon that completes the wall-off and throw down a core or an expo; though I prefer a core because once a zerg really outplayed me on the meta-game, didn't attack instantly, waited until I destroyed my wall-in and put down an expo and THEN attacked; I won, but I had to cancel the nexus and had a seriously delayed core
basicly Darthturtle is right with everything he has said; if your opponent 6-pools and DOES NOT ATTACK you need to capitalize on that or you won't gain anything; if your build just leads to both of you being equal later on, you haven't punished him for 6-pooling....put in other words, then every zerg could 6-pool without getting punished for trying;
you really want to have an early core, go 3 or 4 gate and crush him with your superior gateway force; you don't want him to recover from the early economic loss
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u can just pylon at 12 anyway, if they aren't 6pooling, cannon contain them?
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EPT
