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On September 03 2010 03:56 TheGreenMachine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:48 GoSu] wrote:On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote:
pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you.
It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily. Phoenix zealot doesn't work because you will be able to tell whether they are building out of a stargate or not fairly early on. If there is a stargate, then you can simply get cloaked banshees and win. IMO 3 gate+1 robo fast tech to HT is best counter to this. If the terran sees this coming he can switch a techlab on his factory and get igniter hellions or in the build i talked about 2 posts above, he can switch a reactor onto his factory. Hopefully by then protoss has started an expansion and is keeping the terran from expanding to gain an advantage going into lategame.
Look at the newest replay, in which protoss goes pretty much all in with 3 gate robo and a stargate and still barely beats my army. If he went for templar instead of stargate it would have not come out within time.
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I dont quite understand here soemthing. Why only 1 person commented the early templars? Going 3 gate citadel>templars is the perfect counter for this.
Sure you need to scout, but if you do, you can hold this farelly well.
3 Gate provides you with enough units to hold off the rines/banshees/helions, you would want 2:1 stalker zealot composition. And really, you only need 1 templar to own this push.
You can feedback PDD and kill itt. Get at leat 1 templar, with a good mix of gateway and rines will melt to lots while stalkers will own banshees.
As it was previously mentioned, the focus of this build is to push early with PDD while P has not enough units.
A 3 gate templars(or 4 gate) can be used for blink because of citadel, and you only need one templars to counter efficiently the PDD.
So basically, scout after the poke, see duo stargate, tech on stargate? Go for templars,they counter efficiently the PDD and increase the pawnage of your gateway units. By the time this push comes, you sure wont have storm, but your focus here is too feedback the PDD. So get 2 templars, feeback PDD and a possible banshee and get the archon that will rape them, while you will have a good flow of units because of 3 gate blink starlkers or sentry/lots/stalkers with charge.
And after holding the push, because of the lack of siege tanks, you can usually apply heavy pressure to his natural and expand yourself.
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On September 03 2010 04:40 tocador wrote:
I dont quite understand here soemthing. Why only 1 person commented the early templars? Going 3 gate citadel>templars is the perfect counter for this.
Sure you need to scout, but if you do, you can hold this farelly well.
3 Gate provides you with enough units to hold off the rines/banshees/helions, you would want 2:1 stalker zealot composition. And really, you only need 1 templar to own this push.
You can feedback PDD and kill itt. Get at leat 1 templar, with a good mix of gateway and rines will melt to lots while stalkers will own banshees.
As it was previously mentioned, the focus of this build is to push early with PDD while P has not enough units.
A 3 gate templars(or 4 gate) can be used for blink because of citadel, and you only need one templars to counter efficiently the PDD.
So basically, scout after the poke, see duo stargate, tech on stargate? Go for templars,they counter efficiently the PDD and increase the pawnage of your gateway units. By the time this push comes, you sure wont have storm, but your focus here is too feedback the PDD. So get 2 templars, feeback PDD and a possible banshee and get the archon that will rape them, while you will have a good flow of units because of 3 gate blink starlkers or sentry/lots/stalkers with charge.
And after holding the push, because of the lack of siege tanks, you can usually apply heavy pressure to his natural and expand yourself.
How are you going to scout up a terran ramp without observers? 3 gate is not enough by itself, 3 gate with 2-3 immortals is barely enough, depending on positioning and use of pdd.
And again, how are you going to scout? Or defend against cloak banshees? Unlike protoss, terran has scan, so if there is no robotics, cloak banshees will be coming.
Basically what I'm trying to say is, your idea makes no sense.
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After the poke, you can scout with stalkers and apply pressure to his front. Force him to show his unit conposition and eventually scout him. Or better yet. 3 gate blink stalkers isnt all that uncommon of a build to go, so you can be pretty much safe against this with templars.
And agaisnt the 1,1k toss player, IMO, the reason he lost was actually not having feebacked the PDD, which he could had.
But yeah you can always go 2 gate robo > templars > 3 gate.
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On September 03 2010 04:53 tocador wrote:
After the poke, you can scout with stalkers and apply pressure to his front. Force him to show his unit conposition and eventually scout him. Or better yet. 3 gate blink stalkers isnt all that uncommon of a build to go, so you can be pretty much safe against this with templars.
And agaisnt the 1,1k toss player, IMO, the reason he lost was actually not having feebacked the PDD, which he could had.
But yeah you can always go 2 gate robo > templars > 3 gate.
oh my god
After the poke you are either too low on units to be suiciding them in, and even if you had units you can't just magically go up his ramp and scout for starports. Stop theorycrafting and try it out with a replay, you can add me at hyungbean.149. Two gate robo would die, and you can't possibly support all that gas off one base.
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On September 01 2010 17:00 Kiante wrote:Sounds like storm could wreck your day. What would be your response if you scouted a P rushing for psi storm? also 6 structures off 1 base? all in 
Protoss player here.
A few things I want to address.
1. This push works very well. Even a toss player who knows his early game very well has a chance to lose to this especially if they don't have a sentry.
2. Off Topic Rant. I hate the fact that terrans can pull this kind of crap and get away with it without me being able to punish them back for what is essentially a retarded rush build.
3. I don't know what your definition of rushing for psi storm is, but this build is designed to punish a toss player who doesn't build a small force to defend their base early.
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On September 03 2010 05:02 bobcat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 17:00 Kiante wrote:Sounds like storm could wreck your day. What would be your response if you scouted a P rushing for psi storm? also 6 structures off 1 base? all in 3. I don't know what your definition of rushing for psi storm is, but this build is designed to punish a toss player who doesn't build a small force to defend their base early.
Point 3 is what never made sense to me, and why people even bring it up. How can you possibly support a gateway unit composition, templar, storm research, and possibly robotics tech off two gas. Templar pretty much have to be gotten off two base imo.
Good points though =]
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You can support 1 obs, and templar off 1 base the exact same way that the terran can support Raven/Banshee/Cloak off 1 base.
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I don't know if anyone has mentions this or not....but this should be on liquipedia....i think its a viable enough build from the sound of it....also
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On September 02 2010 09:03 roymarthyup wrote:
it seems like this build doesnt really use one of its buildings so really its producing with 5 buildings
producing with 5 buildings and expanding as terran is completely possible with mules. that seems about standard since toss can produce off 4 buildings and expand so terran gets an extra with mules
also i think the build makes that 6th building so he can have variety and pick which 5 of his buildings he wants to produce from and then when his expo comes up he can add on 3 more buildings and have 9 production buildings on two bases which is normal
the sixth building is the factory and they get it to unlock the starports.
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How effective would it be to use Sentires to:
Create stalker hallucinatios -> make them attack PDD so it consumes more energy.
Yeah, it might be better to just force the Terran to deploy the PDD early, but this requires a bit of stalker micro + pressure; if the Terran ball has already engaged your army, then I think making hallucinations might be more effective because if you try to run, the Terran ball will have a chance to get some hits off as you retreat. Opinions?
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Superbaboseki have you lost with this build barring stupid mistakes? Is there anything I should watch out for when I use this build?
edit: Also I notice the gas timing is different in some of the reps
Sometimes it is at the first marauder building and sometimes it is right after factory starts. Which one is better or are both viable?
Also in the last replay I noticed you produced 3 ravens. When do you build ravens vs banshees? When do you expand?
Thanks in advance
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Early Hts don't even need storm feedback kills anything dangerous IE pdd raven and banshees. Lots and stalkers clean up the rines....
Use sentries to keep ramp blocked as the terran only has marines and a few hellions for ground once hts come out this timing is gone and p is on the advantage.
Have played against this and only requires me as the toss to scout and delay just like any other bio heavy build.
~850 Toss
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On September 01 2010 17:18 nafta wrote:I have faced this a lot lately like every single terran does this lol(BTW shouldn't this be 3/1/2???).I open phoenixes all my pvt-s so it's kind of easier to handle though  .The only thing that is really problematic here is that even if terran is making vikings the tech labs have the same glow as if it is upgrading so you always have to assume he is getting cloack :/.
that should really be fixed, the building glow should be seperate from the add-on glow. We should be able to see if the terran is researching something out of their rax, fac, or starport. All the protosss upgrade structures have a sperate animation, most the zerg morphing is visible, except the evo chamber, which is a no brainer.
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The initial poke here is what people are missing I think. I have yet to lose with this build, and the initial poke is where I feel you win the game. Just the sight of seeing 3 maurder hellion and a marine is enough to take down the toss. From my few games, after that poke dies the toss goes immortals to counter your maurders as it's all he's seen since your base is blocked,
and easily able to scan and kill an OB and then cloak the banshees around. Stalkers cant be everywhere and 2 banshees 1 shot a probe
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On September 03 2010 05:37 frogmelter wrote:
Superbaboseki have you lost with this build barring stupid mistakes? Is there anything I should watch out for when I use this build?
edit: Also I notice the gas timing is different in some of the reps
Sometimes it is at the first marauder building and sometimes it is right after factory starts. Which one is better or are both viable?
Also in the last replay I noticed you produced 3 ravens. When do you build ravens vs banshees? When do you expand?
Thanks in advance
Anytime I lost it was due to a stupid mistake or mismicro, every loss has been really close and could have been won if I just played better overall, I have yet to be absolutely demolished. Some of the replays were older and unrefined but gas after factory is what you should be doing.
I only produced ravens in the last replay because I already knew I won, but in some situations because you have so much extra gas it would be smart to get the ravens out b4 you transition into medivacs.
Be very wary of surprise stargate play, if you see two gateways no robo just assume stargate and produce at least 1 viking. Also if you see 4 gate just don't push out until 4 banshees are out, your unit count will be much higher at this point and if he expanded off the 4 gate you will probably win.
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On September 03 2010 05:08 Nightfall.589 wrote:
You can support 1 obs, and templar off 1 base the exact same way that the terran can support Raven/Banshee/Cloak off 1 base.
Terrans can support this because overall they are still far less gas intensive than the protoss.
Submitted for your approval.
Toss Terran
Robotics facility 100g Factory 100g
council 100g 2 Starports 200g
templar archives 200g 4 tech labs 100g
psi storm 200g cloak 200g
2 templar 300g 2 banshees 200g
1 observer 100g 1 Raven 200g
8 stalkers 400g 8 marauders 200g
2 sentries 200g
Total 1600g 1200g
Keep in mind that you have access to all of your tech tree minus Battlecruisers and Thors while the protoss player does not have acces to Carriers, Colossuses, Phoenixes and Void Rays. Also, the T player has 2 Starports for faster unit production which is necessary for both teams.
The reason I bring this up is because it would cost another 300g to build 2 stargates and additional gas to build any air forces. This comparison also assumes that the toss player did not get charge 200g or blink 150g, or khaydarin amulet (templar energy)150g It will cost the Terran player 100g to unlock thors, and 150g to unlock BC's. While it takes 200g to unlock colossuses and another 200g to make them useful at all(range upgrade), and it takes 200g to unlock carriers and a similar 150g upgrade to make them worth teching to.
It is more expensive for us to harrass your mineral line either with DT's, 500g for the shrine + two DT's or with 3 void rays 450g. Both of which are about as effective as 3 banshees 300g.'
Now....
for the protoss player to support an army as felixble/diverse/strong as the T army is, we have to expand to a second base, and somehow find the time and money to saturate this base while defending with tier 1.5 forces which are inferior to marine marauder with stim. Obviously that is not an option, so yeah, getting templar off of one base and stalling is really the only way a toss player can survive against a skilled terran.
Early Hts don't even need storm feedback kills anything dangerous IE pdd raven and banshees. Lots and stalkers clean up the rines....
On September 03 2010 05:51 Lukk wrote:
Early Hts don't even need storm feedback kills anything dangerous IE pdd raven and banshees. Lots and stalkers clean up the rines....
Use sentries to keep ramp blocked as the terran only has marines and a few hellions for ground once hts come out this timing is gone and p is on the advantage.
Have played against this and only requires me as the toss to scout and delay just like any other bio heavy build.
~850 Toss
True, but what if they go marauders? You have no way of knowing until you crank out an observer and it's too late by then.
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great build, i ve been doing something very similar from time to time since i saw the games between TLO and WhiteRa :p
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@Bobcat
You don't need storm for the first push, and you don't need 2 templar. You just need one, to feedback the PDD, and suddenly T is at a disadvantage.
You also forgot stim and conc shells.
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Unless I'm wrong, stim comes much later, if at all. Marines are there to force decision between hitting banshees or taking out marines. It would be nice if the build had the time to throw a tech lab back down and learn stim and shield. It'd be about unstoppable then.
I keep getting toss that go into collsasurous rex and just let me concave them and banshee rape em.
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EPT
