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On September 02 2010 15:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Marine/banshee/hellion are all relatively bad vs stalkers. You're greatly delaying your cc to mass up quickly on your mule cash, it sounds pretty all-inish to me. Ravens do not magically turn off stalkers, all he has to do is pressure you with stalkers forcing you to drop the defense thing early or retreat (the former enabling him to safely retreat, negating your defense thing), or just shoot the damn thing. The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley. If p keeps up a good stalker count, I don't see that you'll be able to end game with this, and I feel like you'd be fairly behind going into midgame without having done any significant damage to p, since you've used up a lot of money in your main with mules.
PDD doesn't defend itself? That's something I never knew before :X
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On September 02 2010 08:41 Ace wrote:Then how is this build's strength better than any build that allows you to early game harass and expand with minimal units? It seems as if a Protoss player gets scared by the initial force or can't micro decently then you win. If not then you somehow have a safe fallback that no Protoss can punish even after a fast expand? I don't understand how this is possible. If you poke early, fail or the Protoss holds then your response is to tech all the way up to Ravens for a timing push with PDD and win. My issue is what is the Protoss player doing all of this time that they are not scouting or somehow has his army sitting in his nat? By scouting I mean little things like leaving a probe in your nat to see if you try to expand or push out, or constantly sending 1 Stalker to your wall to check your unit count. This is pretty much what I'm getting at because a decent Protoss player should be actively scouting you to at least know that after that failed push you are either going for a major timing push or a drop if they see no expansion. If it's a timing push the standard response is to DELAY the push and not let it get to your nat which is what the other poster said earlier about forcing the Raven to drop the PDD in an earlier engagement. Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:36 MeistR wrote:On September 02 2010 08:17 Ace wrote:On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote:
I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good. Are you serious? So because this build hasn't been proven against the cream of the crop, it isn't viable? Let me ask you this: how many players on b.net are top tier? If the build beats players that aren't good that doesn't mean the build itself is good.
Hmm from the replay I watched (Xel naga cavern) it looked like he was pushing into the P base with the 3 marauders, 1 marine and hellion, and still had room to make that raven, while the early game poke was going on. So I wouldn't say just because hes getting out a raven hes gonna be in any real threat of losing in the early game.
However I completely agree with the idea of, if you see the terran going for this, just force the PDD away from you're vital areas such as you're Nat or ramp. The PDD is the real meat of this build and the best way to counter this is to just engage the terran army away from you're base.
This is why im really favoring IEholics 1/1/2 build with the three hellion drop,it forces the protoss to stay in his base. Its essentially the same strat, you're pushing with marine/banshee/raven, but you're doing economic harrass with the hellions+dropship, and at the same time keeping the protoss in his base.
Edit. However to be fair the sheer number of units you pump out of all 6 buildings of 1 base is pretty insane. I still need to try out this strat, but I would probably favor getting a expansion a little earlier then continuing to rally units after the first push.
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The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
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On September 02 2010 15:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley.. Are you sure? I don't recall this.... testing now.
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On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote:
The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Im pretty sure hes stopping any marauder production after the first initial push.
Marine/Banshee/Raven is a lot more lean because marines are so versatile, they cover any type of stargate opening that the toss could potentially go for.
Marauder/Banshee/Raven (Im pretty sure you can't even support this off 2 gas but w/e) Any stargate opening will destroy it even if it is possible.
Maybe keep 1 or 2 marauder in ur army just for conc shells, but still that delays you're initial push and the whole point of this is to push before you're opponent gets a critical mass of stalkers to burn through you're PDD's energy, the sooner the push the more effective it will be.
And from my experience with this, If you try to FF you're ramp to prevent the marines from breaking in, I would just PDD the ramp, snipe the sentries with my 4 banshees and and just move on in with my force.
Maaaaybe Phoenix/Zealot/Sentry? just guessing but Phoenix openings in general are strong against any raven/banshee push, and zealots with proper FF will slice through marines. (again just guessing)
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Very robust build! I wish I could write a lot more in depth, but everything I've wanted to say has been said already. Kudos, sir.
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On September 02 2010 16:15 Edso wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote:
The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Im pretty sure hes stopping any marauder production after the first initial push. Marine/Banshee/Raven is a lot more lean because marines are so versatile, they cover any type of stargate opening that the toss could potentially go for. Marauder/Banshee/Raven (Im pretty sure you can't even support this off 2 gas but w/e) Any stargate opening will destroy it even if it is possible. Maybe keep 1 or 2 marauder in ur army just for conc shells, but still that delays you're initial push and the whole point of this is to push before you're opponent gets a critical mass of stalkers to burn through you're PDD's energy, the sooner the push the more effective it will be. And from my experience with this, If you try to FF you're ramp to prevent the marines from breaking in, I would just PDD the ramp, snipe the sentries with my 4 banshees and and just move on in with my force. Maaaaybe Phoenix/Zealot/Sentry? just guessing but Phoenix openings in general are strong against any raven/banshee push, and zealots with proper FF will slice through marines. (again just guessing)
Problem is that the protoss dont know what unit hes doing... He just pushed with 3 marauder and 1 marine... the P will obvioustly expect more marauder ! I know... im P ! 
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To everyone that's saying that mid-field play is somehow strong against this build... it's not.
Banshees will rape your probe line.
You can harass with banshees, which will pretty much give your marine/raven a free path towards your opponent's base.
still... I think zealot/sentry/stalker would be able to defend that push, the question is can you expand, and still defend it, and can you scout it in time to prepare.
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I've been playing this a lot and this build is insane in 2v2. Most people go for a cheese or some timing push with tier 1.5 units. Mostly its marauders/stalkers/roaches and they get raped by the pdd and banshees. The amount of units u can produce from those 6 buildings... wow! Once i get an expansion i just add on a dual layer of the same buildings or tech to BCs. PDD and BCs are not to be messed with.
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I've been experimenting with variations on the 3 rax 2 starport frontal attack and more often than not protoss just scouts the 2 starports with an observer, masses stalkers while expanding, and holds it off (a couple of sentries to mess with the marines are enough, no psi storm needed)
The key to defending using ground units seems to be just having a lot more stalkers than normal, 50% stalkers can be beaten with 1 PDD or sacrificing marines to focus fire the stalkers, but these tactics don't work if protoss has 80% stalkers
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A good PDD over ramp is really the nail in the coffin for the P. did this several times yesterday and it worked like a charm. Get slowing upgrade for the poke also! It takes ~15 seconds more and delays the raven another 15s but is enough to kill 5-6 zeals + stalker + some probes with luck + micro.
This is not an all in I assure you. I have 300+ minerals when I push even though I produce constantly from all 6 buildings. I don't scan at all because of the poke.
I start building CC BEFORE the push reaches the enemy. In my opinion this is actually a proof of T being OP. You can outproduce P from one base with a good margin.
I've been trying to think of a good P counter. Phoenix and mass speedlot on open ground might work... NEVER defend in a choke (PDD)
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Replays plox. Also im glad im not protoss atm!
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On September 02 2010 19:25 Cerion wrote:
I've been experimenting with variations on the 3 rax 2 starport frontal attack and more often than not protoss just scouts the 2 starports with an observer, masses stalkers while expanding, and holds it off (a couple of sentries to mess with the marines are enough, no psi storm needed)
The key to defending using ground units seems to be just having a lot more stalkers than normal, 50% stalkers can be beaten with 1 PDD or sacrificing marines to focus fire the stalkers, but these tactics don't work if protoss has 80% stalkers
P doesn't have any observers in your base until it's too late. if he goes 1-gate robo he must have godly micro to kill your poke, continue probe produciton and get more gates up.
I really don't see how P can expand. the poke would kill him for FE and the push would kill him otherwise. This build is about outproducing the P. T will have A LOT MORE resources in army. if P expands it will only get worse since there is no time to saturate two expansions for the push (might not even saturate one).
Mule-nerf incoming.
EDIT: Just thought of this: What happens with the poke if P has a single PC + few units at ramp? I haven't encountered this yet...
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i like the 7 marine, 2 helion "poke" better.
you can decide to either add a medivac or banshees for the second one. or even the first, if you time it well
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Just tried this for the first time, worked like a charm against a 1000 point diamond toss player.
Map was desert oasis, which probably isnt that optimal for this build. My "poke" didnt do much, but saw that he was going for fast expo. With the first banshee push I managed to cripple him. Had 2 banshees queued up which I sent straight at his probes in main, his only stalkers were tied up fighting my main army and the game was pretty much over after that.
Overall a good build and a nice change from the usual marauderfest. 4-5 banshees with 20 marines truly have amazing DPS. Ravens are also a very fun unit, love to find some good use for them.
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On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote:
The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs.
Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately.
It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push.
Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's.
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no it is not
Morrow has 4 banshees and way less ground forces
His micro in the battle is abysmal. Basically the stalkers of WhiteLoad get free shots on the banshees while the marines retardedly try to walk through the FF.
Read the post, the discussion and compare the replays. Mass stalker is BS against this build.
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On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote:
The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's.
your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders.
thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack).
the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO.
In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap.
I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has.
so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build?
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I wouldn't say transitioning away from Banshees into Viking counts as "defeating Void Rays and Phoenix." Marine/Viking/Raven isn't especially strong, and the Vikings are more of a soft counter than a hard counter.
But in general this seems like typical Terran BS... though honestly Protoss players seem like 10 steps behind other races in terms of strategic development so this perspective might just be due to limited by that. I think picking up early Air Armour (lol, why is it more expensive...) might also be a great help since Marine support fire is what really cuts into Protoss air strategies. Air upgrade is also a place where Protoss can easily out-pace Terrans because Core is required compared to Armory, and Armory costs gas and Core doesn't. So you should inherently be ahead with them.
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EPT
