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On September 03 2010 00:40 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote:
The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's. your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders. thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack). the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO. In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap. I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has. so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build?
What the heck are Chargelots going to do against Banshees?
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they gonna tank everyshot from all the other unit so you can focus fire the banshee
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Thank for this build. I like this one base strategy with production on six building, sound effective.
I didn't check each replay carefully but in the first one (Xelnaga Caerne) at the time you are pushing with your two banshee and 'rines you are already accumulating way too much gas, which sound weird when talking about a Banshee based strategy. When you're engaging you've around 800gas excess, that make me think their is a way to better use the unit combination for the second push.
So let's think about a way to improve the building order by consuming more gas. Would the answer be a ghost academy along with a Tech lab? This being created after the starports, will be an extra 200min 75gas resources in buildings, this probably mean sacrificing one hellion for the push with banshee and two 'rine. Then the ghost will consume an other hellion + marine in the push. Will the ghost with is EMP be as important as two hellion and 3 marines? Probably not at the time of the push with banshee, but it might be more effective if the second push is not finishing him as a ghost will only replace an hellion and a 'rine. You will also be ready when his high templar will pop out.
What do you think?
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i greatly like this build idea. gonna try it out.
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On September 03 2010 00:46 Yokoblue wrote:
they gonna tank everyshot from all the other unit so you can focus fire the banshee
With what? PDD + Banshee can take out low Stalker numbers easily. Heck, Banshees can take on Stalkers fine on their own. Stalkers have more HP, but Banshees out DPS them.
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On September 03 2010 00:43 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 00:40 clickrush wrote:On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote:
The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's. your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders. thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack). the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO. In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap. I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has. so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build? What the heck are Chargelots going to do against Banshees?
did you read the OP? he attacks with a couple banshees, a raven and lots of marines. chargelots tank all the banshee and marine fire while destroying the marines. with a smaller stalker amount the PDD will ofc save the banshees for quite a while but the main army consinsts of marines. this attack better does a shitload of damage if P is early expanding.
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A PDD will defend itself. It just seems like there's a limit to show many shots it can shoot down per second.
About 1-6 Stalkers firing at it will pretty much never get a shot through.
About 10 Stalkers can pretty much instagib it if they all fire together.
That's the trick. If everything fires together, the PDD can't catch all of the shots. If they keep firing in some random pattern it'll stop it every single time. Even 11 Stalkers can't get a shot through until it runs out of energy if you send them to attack the thing.
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I actually combined part of this build with iEchoic's 1/1/2 build in a match early this morning. Started off with the 3/1/2 and did the poke. Killed two zealots and wounded his stalkers. He retreated but kept his army at his choke so instead of another frontal push I did a 3 hellion drop and killed 6 probes. He tried to counter-push after that but ran into my MM ball, a bunker and 4-5 banshees on my choke.
He managed to kill most of my bio ball but I still had 4 Marauders and nearly all my Banshees. I pushed right back with those Banshees and Marauders while pumping more MM, a Raven and a Banshee and lifting off my newly built CC in order to expand.
Didn't even get to pull SCV's and send them to the new CC as his blink stalkers died quite quickly to my Banshees and Marauders. If I had gotten a Raven out earlier (which I will do next time) his push would have done far less damage making it an even easier win.
If I was Protoss right now I'd be very scared of a fully functional combination of 1/1/2 and 3/1/2 because I just don't see how it can be countered at the moment. Early poke, followed by Hellion drop, followed by MM/Raven/Banshee ball. Scary...
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On September 03 2010 00:55 clickrush wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 00:43 whateversclever wrote:On September 03 2010 00:40 clickrush wrote:On September 02 2010 22:28 junemermaid wrote:On September 02 2010 16:00 Yokoblue wrote:
The problem with engaging the terran army beforehand is that marauder eat almost all gateway unit. You want to stay in your base to FF the ramp... If you engage, you might lose quite a lot if he got concusive shell upgrades. 1-2 stalker less and maybe you're done...
Its just my 2 cents
Just get blink if you don't know what the Terran is doing. Since that is pretty much every game, I get blink before leg speed almost every PvT I play, since I just don't know what the hell Terran players are up to. The concussive shell problem is solved immediately (although it won't be ready for the first "poke". The fastest I can REASONABLY get blink is around the 6ish minute mark). You can play right up on the Terran's front door if you have blink after that initial push. He can't chase or snipe units at all if he is going heavy marauder given you have appropriate reaction times. Stalkers w/ blink are really effective against heavy marauder or 3rax builds. When he is moving out, you can blink on top of his base and wreak havoc. Once he starts chasing you back in his base you can FF his ramp with a sentry and harass his expansion if he has one. It really holes up Terran players until they have medivacs. Against this 3/1/2 build, Stalkers with blink forces it to make a transition, to you know, something that kills stalkers. The fact that the raven can't get a positional pdd off means that hellions and marines are not very effective. Although the T should cut hellion production if he sees a lot of stalkers on the field. The only real threat is the banshees, but you're gonna need ~4-5 to cause problems for stalkers. At that point, protoss should either have feedback or a few phoenix, and with some decent control, should be able to hold off adequately. It's really hard to completely shutdown this build just from the volume of troops T is making, but it isn't too difficult to defend a timing push. Honestly, I wish people would stop making stalkers without blink. A good portion of protoss players haven't even experimented with the ability. If they do get it, they forget they have it and never use it, or use it once or twice during an entire game. Blink is like a stalker's stim, only better. I don't think Terran really has a HARD counter to early game blinking stalkers. They have a lot of soft-counters that depend on unit control and individual awareness. But as far as I'm concerned, I can open with blink stalkers every game and not be at risk against anything the Terran throws at me. That is how I open about 90% of my PvT's. your experience with blink is quite interesting. I didnt use it at all against T because I dont like to go stalker heavy against marauders. thats why I get charge allways. I think a good amount of chargelots+ stalkers can shut down the attack in the OP (its not a push btw. its a simple attack or timing attack). the harass in the beginning is also not a problem. against attacks like this P can even early expand. go stalker heavy off one chronoboosted gate (a few zealots to tank marauder fire) and expand. I defended all kinds of reaper+marauder+bunker attacks and marauder cheeses with it while expanding. T is very, very weak against P early game IMO. In practice I dont see what damage T can do with this attack against chargelots. I also saw the reps of ra fighting against it with blink vs morrow. the banshees are scary for sure. but if you defend this and get HTs/phoenix eventually then T has to get ghosts asap. I fear any bio+ghost composition 10times more than this. this catches people off guard for sure, but it isnt strong itself IMO. yes ghosts vs P comes down to micro and positioning but its way more flexible and strategically defends all kinds of compositions P has. so may I ask if the OP played with this against a chargelot heavy build? What the heck are Chargelots going to do against Banshees? did you read the OP? he attacks with a couple banshees, a raven and lots of marines. chargelots tank all the banshee and marine fire while destroying the marines. with a smaller stalker amount the PDD will ofc save the banshees for quite a while but the main army consinsts of marines. this attack better does a shitload of damage if P is early expanding.
How exactly are you going to "tank Banshees with Zealots"? Is there some taunt function to the Zealot that I'm unaware of? Once the Stalkers are dead, who cares what happens to the Marines? You're not going to slaughter those Marines so badly that your Zealots will be anything other than dead if you don't take those Banshees out.
It's totally in Terran's favor. Protoss CAN'T just magically make Banshees try to shoot Zealots. But Banshees can force Stalkers to come after them, by making a b-line for the minerals. You don't even need to send in the Marines. The only reason why you build Marines is to defend against air and mass Stalkers. You could just leave them in your base if you want.
Oh and you're expanding with your Zealot army to defend? Say hello to every probe you own dying.
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On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
First Poke
The first "poke" comes in the early game. This is very similar to the 1 marine, two marauder, 1 reaper play, however this consists of 1 marine, 3 marauders, and 1 hellion at around the exact same timing.
This simple poke in with 5 units can end the game many times vs a greedy protoss, but it will at the very least let you know exactly what you're opponent is up to(by seeing what he is defending with). Watch replay or try it yourself to see just how effective it can be.
Yeah, tried this last night and he had 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry on his ramp. WTFPWND my 5 guys (1 hellion, 3 rauders, 1 marine) and basically marched into my base and destroyed me.
Then again, I'm not very good, but I thought I followed the early build pretty strictly...
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On September 03 2010 02:38 bearpole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
First Poke
The first "poke" comes in the early game. This is very similar to the 1 marine, two marauder, 1 reaper play, however this consists of 1 marine, 3 marauders, and 1 hellion at around the exact same timing.
This simple poke in with 5 units can end the game many times vs a greedy protoss, but it will at the very least let you know exactly what you're opponent is up to(by seeing what he is defending with). Watch replay or try it yourself to see just how effective it can be.
Yeah, tried this last night and he had 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry on his ramp. WTFPWND my 5 guys (1 hellion, 3 rauders, 1 marine) and basically marched into my base and destroyed me. Then again, I'm not very good, but I thought I followed the early build pretty strictly...
If those were the exact army compositions, you certainly should not be getting WTFPWND.
In early game skirmishes with few units like this, you need to micro heavily.
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On September 01 2010 17:01 superbabosheki wrote:
[
It is impossible to get to storm without dying to the 1 raven 2 banshee push, plus what kind of protoss would blindly rush for templar(which would mean no robo). So if I did scout a P rushing for psi storm I would do a barrel roll.
if you get pushed with an MM group early I might expect another early push and go for citadel to get charge and then just throw down the temp archives.
Feedback on the raven and the banshees would really ruin your push.
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i really like this build. posting so i can come back and review the replays when i get out of work! :D
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On September 03 2010 02:38 bearpole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote:
First Poke
The first "poke" comes in the early game. This is very similar to the 1 marine, two marauder, 1 reaper play, however this consists of 1 marine, 3 marauders, and 1 hellion at around the exact same timing.
This simple poke in with 5 units can end the game many times vs a greedy protoss, but it will at the very least let you know exactly what you're opponent is up to(by seeing what he is defending with). Watch replay or try it yourself to see just how effective it can be.
Yeah, tried this last night and he had 2 stalkers, 1 zealot and 1 sentry on his ramp. WTFPWND my 5 guys (1 hellion, 3 rauders, 1 marine) and basically marched into my base and destroyed me. Then again, I'm not very good, but I thought I followed the early build pretty strictly...
As has been said, with low unit number, micro is key. If you just 1a up the ramp, you're screwed. But if you poke the ramp, goad him down, kite with the hellion and focus the stalkers with the marauders, you might win right there. I've started playing with this build and I just won a game with the poke where his composition was identical to that which you described. Remember: this early, with one sentry, he gets two ff max. No need to run up against it and play into his hand.
I've played a half dozen games with this build. The one game I lost (first I played) was to what I thought was a zealot heavy force until he popped his void rays out of his hidden stargate. By the time my marines got back to my base the void rays were charged and that's all she wrote.
The most recent game I played was against a very zealot heavy force. And I agree: zealots don't tank banshees. For my first push, he had a half dozen stalkers and 10ish zealots. PDD, focus fire the stalkers, let the marines die, and then when only zealots and banshees are left, clean up. The game lasted quite a while, actually, because without the marines, and having already used the PDD, the warped-in stalkers were able to repel the remaining banshees. The game lasted long enough for him to get High Templar. And those HURT. But with proper micro and constant pressure he'll never have enough energy for more than two at once, so I was okay.
I have yet to see Phoenixes when I use this build. Do PDD's stop Phoenix shots? If not, wouldn't Phoenix/Zealot by the hard counter?
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pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you.
It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily.
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Ive actually lost to a very similar build but it was 2 rax with reactor+1 rax no addon+2 starports with techlabs. Making 100% marine+banshee. No early pressure but it involves a factory float roughly the time when a templar archives would be starting. The factory lands and starts making hellions as you push forward with your 1 raven, 5 or 6 banshee, and bunch of marines. I found it very hard to stop with zealots, stalkers. In my opinion, if a terran is on 1 base just go for tech. You NEED HT or phoenix vs this push. Next time I run into it im going to tech 1 base to HT, skip storm, make like 10 zealots, 4 stalkers, and like 4 HT to feedback then become archons.
If I went phoenix id have to worry about microing away from marines and PDD will block phoenix shots. Fast HT and rushing archons (until someone expands). After one expands the game could go in a million different directions.
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On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote:
pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you.
It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily.
Phoenix zealot doesn't work because you will be able to tell whether they are building out of a stargate or not fairly early on. If there is a stargate, then you can simply get cloaked banshees and win.
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On September 03 2010 03:48 GoSu] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote:
pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you.
It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily. Phoenix zealot doesn't work because you will be able to tell whether they are building out of a stargate or not fairly early on. If there is a stargate, then you can simply get cloaked banshees and win.
IMO 3 gate+1 robo fast tech to HT is best counter to this. If the terran sees this coming he can switch a techlab on his factory and get igniter hellions or in the build i talked about 2 posts above, he can switch a reactor onto his factory. Hopefully by then protoss has started an expansion and is keeping the terran from expanding to gain an advantage going into lategame.
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you can support 6 production facilities off of 1 base!?
edit: and you can transition into an expand... How is this possible?
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On September 03 2010 03:44 shutdown_exploded wrote:
pdd does not work on phoenixes. If they knew you were doing this and went phoenix zealot they'd probably wreck you.
It's tricky to predict this push is coming, and by the time they got a real lot/nix force, with 3/1/2 you could techswitch so easily.
Why do people keep saying things that are not true? PDD DOES WORK ON PHEONIX.
On September 03 2010 04:00 kNyTTyM wrote:
you can support 6 production facilities off of 1 base!?
Marines cost 50 minerals, hellions cost 100. You are producing out of 3 raxes and 1 factory that is only 250/0 a cycle, very low cost basically. Basically 4 out of 6 production facilities are cheap as heck.
Banshees are 300/200 and take very long to build.
After your first engagement you will without a doubt lose supply, this is when you can cut supply depot and hellion production and easiliy have a huge excess in minerals while either reinforcing are starting up a defense at your natural(ravens cost 100/200 and you will have a lot of excess gas).
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EPT
