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On September 02 2010 08:17 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote:
I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good.
Are you serious? So because this build hasn't been proven against the cream of the crop, it isn't viable? Let me ask you this: how many players on b.net are top tier?
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Then how is this build's strength better than any build that allows you to early game harass and expand with minimal units? It seems as if a Protoss player gets scared by the initial force or can't micro decently then you win. If not then you somehow have a safe fallback that no Protoss can punish even after a fast expand?
I don't understand how this is possible. If you poke early, fail or the Protoss holds then your response is to tech all the way up to Ravens for a timing push with PDD and win. My issue is what is the Protoss player doing all of this time that they are not scouting or somehow has his army sitting in his nat? By scouting I mean little things like leaving a probe in your nat to see if you try to expand or push out, or constantly sending 1 Stalker to your wall to check your unit count. This is pretty much what I'm getting at because a decent Protoss player should be actively scouting you to at least know that after that failed push you are either going for a major timing push or a drop if they see no expansion. If it's a timing push the standard response is to DELAY the push and not let it get to your nat which is what the other poster said earlier about forcing the Raven to drop the PDD in an earlier engagement.
On September 02 2010 08:36 MeistR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:17 Ace wrote:On September 02 2010 05:03 Gecko wrote:
I watched some of your replays and i have yet to see you play a toss who was actually good, so im not really impressed. in the fast HT replay he wasted his gas on immortals and early HT tech, while floating 800 minerals... the dude was just awful. That floated money and gas wasted on his retarded tech could of been used on zealots, stalkers and sentires to deal with this. If you notice every possible question the OP is countered with there is a "THIS BUILD BEATS ALL!" response. So I wouldn't take anything he says seriously until the build is shown to be viable vs top tier competition. Classic case of a build being called good because it works on people who aren't that good. Are you serious? So because this build hasn't been proven against the cream of the crop, it isn't viable? Let me ask you this: how many players on b.net are top tier?
If the build beats players that aren't good that doesn't mean the build itself is good.
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On September 01 2010 21:51 Red Alert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote:
This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all.
I dont see how this cant be considered all in, 6 buildings produced off 1 base for a huge attack with no expansion in mind?
Yeah its all in
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it seems like this build doesnt really use one of its buildings so really its producing with 5 buildings
producing with 5 buildings and expanding as terran is completely possible with mules. that seems about standard since toss can produce off 4 buildings and expand so terran gets an extra with mules
also i think the build makes that 6th building so he can have variety and pick which 5 of his buildings he wants to produce from and then when his expo comes up he can add on 3 more buildings and have 9 production buildings on two bases which is normal
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On September 02 2010 08:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2010 21:51 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote:
This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all. I dont see how this cant be considered all in, 6 buildings produced off 1 base for a huge attack with no expansion in mind? Yeah its all in
He is only building marines out of 3 of his buildings... and a single hellion out of the fourth, every so often. The focus is clearly the banshees and raven, with marines for support. Banshees are huge fucking airplanes that kill everything on the ground, why not make it your main army????? I don't even attack the guys army with my hellions, I send them straight into his probes while I am attacking him with the rest.
Expansion is always in mind, what are you talking about? It's not like T has to keep sending units to p's base, lol... poop a bunker and turtle a little, you're expanding you need to. T will be able to afford a CC, AND stay alive, build it in base if you are still scared. You're not going to get outproduced if you are both 1-base, and as usual, they expand you expand sorta deal.... If toss continues 1 base and T is expanding, well, this is a judgment call, now isn't it?
I don't think you watched his replays. This is not all-in. If you watch the replay, you will see that there is no way this is all-in, by a loonnnngggg shot. If people actually watch the replays, they wouldn't say all-in, because they aren't fucking blind.
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On September 02 2010 09:03 roymarthyup wrote:
it seems like this build doesnt really use one of its buildings so really its producing with 5 buildings
producing with 5 buildings and expanding as terran is completely possible with mules. that seems about standard since toss can produce off 4 buildings and expand so terran gets an extra with mules
Yeah, he said you can cut hellion and supply depot production after a push since the inevitable loss of units will give you excess supply.
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Just wanted to say thanks super for this amazing build. It is extremely well thought-out and capitalizes on income while countering just about anything a protoss can muster before the victory push. For example just had a toss try to DT rush me, raven popped right as they were entering my base. Made the push from 700-800 diamond extremely easy :D
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I'd like to repeat a question I had asked earlier and I don't believe was answered. When you lose with this build, why do you think you lose?
If you already answered this, I apologize, just quote your previous response please.
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To all you idiots who are saying this build is all in without qualifying their statements; builds like this are not inherently all in; it really depends on how you play them out. If you go read one of TLO's recent interviews about playing on the Korean server.. he even talks about how so many Koreans play very aggressive, almost all-in'ish builds, except that they actually know how to follow them up, unlike most of the players who do the same kinds of builds on the other servers.
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On September 02 2010 10:54 Acritter wrote:
I'd like to repeat a question I had asked earlier and I don't believe was answered. When you lose with this build, why do you think you lose?
If you already answered this, I apologize, just quote your previous response please.
I've only done the refined version on this build like 5 times and haven't lost yet(before that I've been messing around with it for 20 games but still won most of them, just really unrefined with sloppy timings), but I rarely ladder anyways. One of my cevo matches my opponent blind hard countered it by going two gate before core mass zealot + mass pheonix(he told me so afterwards that he did that blind x_x). I think the replay is on sc2replayed.com, search hyungbean vs negimpulse on steppes of war. I could have won that game or at least lived on if I didn't salvage my bunker 15 seconds before he attacked.
This build doesn't have too many holes to exploit or get "countered" by in standard builds from toss(3 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, 4 gate, etc.), if I do lose it would either be because my opponent is just much better than I am and took control of the game early on or I make a fatal micro mistake.
On September 02 2010 09:46 Chunkybuddha wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2010 08:50 arb wrote:On September 01 2010 21:51 Red Alert wrote:On September 01 2010 21:48 gillon wrote:
This sounds similar to the iEchoic's 1-1-2 build except this one seems way more allin. Doesn't even seem stronger. No harass opportunities either. the first attack IS the harass, dude. It's not all in at all. I dont see how this cant be considered all in, 6 buildings produced off 1 base for a huge attack with no expansion in mind? Yeah its all in He is only building marines out of 3 of his buildings... and a single hellion out of the fourth, every so often. The focus is clearly the banshees and raven, with marines for support. Banshees are huge fucking airplanes that kill everything on the ground, why not make it your main army????? I don't even attack the guys army with my hellions, I send them straight into his probes while I am attacking him with the rest. Expansion is always in mind, what are you talking about? It's not like T has to keep sending units to p's base, lol... poop a bunker and turtle a little, you're expanding you need to. T will be able to afford a CC, AND stay alive, build it in base if you are still scared. You're not going to get outproduced if you are both 1-base, and as usual, they expand you expand sorta deal.... If toss continues 1 base and T is expanding, well, this is a judgment call, now isn't it? I don't think you watched his replays. This is not all-in. If you watch the replay, you will see that there is no way this is all-in, by a loonnnngggg shot. If people actually watch the replays, they wouldn't say all-in, because they aren't fucking blind.
Perfectly said, if I do find time to TvP and use this build I'll try adding replays of the CC followup since all my games end too quickly due to the strong push or the fact that I know continuous rallying will win the game.
People just see "omg 6 structures ALLIN!!!!" when in reality marines/hellions are super cheap, and banshees take forever to build.
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Well because of you I just played against somebody who was trying your build !!
Replay :![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145166.jpg)
I end up winning barely... Its a really though game... Even if i knew what he was doing. I went mass stalker into templar... that I made really late to keep the pressure...
He could easily have won if not from micro and not used to your build... Its gonna be really hard to counter that build
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On September 02 2010 13:07 Yokoblue wrote:Well because of you I just played against somebody who was trying your build !! Replay : I end up winning barely... Its a really though game... Even if i knew what he was doing. I went mass stalker into templar... that I made really late to keep the pressure... He could easily have won if not from micro and not used to your build... Its gonna be really hard to counter that build
Judging from the replay he really butchered the hell out of it.
-gas pretty late at 14, didn't put 3 in it until like 30 seconds after he completed refinery
-poke was super duper late and uneeded at that point since he already killed off two stalkers
-first attack was done way off timing as well probably due to the void ray harass though, marine count too low, pdd in a bad spot, and he let you fire at it uncontested
The weird thing is that despite all these errors he was still a command center and like 10 workers/food ahead of you, if he just defended a bit more smartly he could have won pretty easily.
Good to see people are trying it out :D
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only problem with this build is that senties > you trying to attack.
sure, you'll have banshees, but u will need quite a few to snipe all sentries ontop of stalkers attacking you, just sying, that first attack wont kill anyone who knows what they are doing.
but i do agree with the basic idea behind this, it is very strong. however i think 2/1/2 is better. you can just make a reactor off ur factory and airlift a rax to it, allows for a faster CC, as you'll be fine on gas
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On September 02 2010 13:31 PhiliBiRD wrote:
only problem with this build is that senties > you trying to attack.
sure, you'll have banshees, but u will need quite a few to snipe all sentries ontop of stalkers attacking you, just sying, that first attack wont kill anyone who knows what they are doing.
but i do agree with the basic idea behind this, it is very strong. however i think 2/1/2 is better. you can just make a reactor off ur factory and airlift a rax to it, allows for a faster CC, as you'll be fine on gas
Wait what? What are sentries going to do please explain, they have god awful dps, die super fast, and if you have them forcefielding a ramp that is GOOD for terran since it means he gets a free PDD on the ramp and banshees take reign over it.
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Very interesting build, I'll definitely have to try this out.
1 Issue - If you're not getting Banshee cloak, how would this deal with HTs feedbacking your Raven/Banshees?
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To those doubting the viability of this build, TLO used this build against white ra in metalopolis. I have been using this build in a while and I love it.
So far, only time I've lost with this build is some early aggressive push by the p which I didn't scout.
What I love about this build is that it forces your opponent to get robo for obs just in case you get cloak which will not really help them against your push and if they skip robo, you can always drop 200/200 for cloak.
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On September 02 2010 15:07 onionchowder wrote:
Very interesting build, I'll definitely have to try this out.
1 Issue - If you're not getting Banshee cloak, how would this deal with HTs feedbacking your Raven/Banshees?
There will be no high templars, period. Until someone proves me wrong with a replay where they can rush it fast enough without dying in the process.
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The raven PDD is so strong, if the push gets to his door with PDD + banshee/marine/hellions its pretty much over.
For a protoss to best counter this is to engage the terran outside his base (to maximize his number of units for defense). Force the terran throw down the PDD, and then retreat and fight at another spot.
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Marine/banshee/hellion are all relatively bad vs stalkers. You're greatly delaying your cc to mass up quickly on your mule cash, it sounds pretty all-inish to me. Ravens do not magically turn off stalkers, all he has to do is pressure you with stalkers forcing you to drop the defense thing early or retreat (the former enabling him to safely retreat, negating your defense thing), or just shoot the damn thing. The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley. If p keeps up a good stalker count, I don't see that you'll be able to end game with this, and I feel like you'd be fairly behind going into midgame without having done any significant damage to p, since you've used up a lot of money in your main with mules.
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On September 02 2010 15:35 Nightmarjoo wrote:
Marine/banshee/hellion are all relatively bad vs stalkers. You're greatly delaying your cc to mass up quickly on your mule cash, it sounds pretty all-inish to me. Ravens do not magically turn off stalkers, all he has to do is pressure you with stalkers forcing you to drop the defense thing early or retreat (the former enabling him to safely retreat, negating your defense thing), or just shoot the damn thing. The defense things don't defend themselves. Two will defend eachother, but a single one can just be sniped with a single stalker volley. If p keeps up a good stalker count, I don't see that you'll be able to end game with this, and I feel like you'd be fairly behind going into midgame without having done any significant damage to p, since you've used up a lot of money in your main with mules.
actually, if he expend he pretty much wins... Since he wont have done that much damage, but both army will be almost the same and he will have the expend advantage...
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EPT
