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On September 04 2010 01:23 Shaithis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 23:55 .ImpacT. wrote:
Had my friend try this build on me (he's a 1200 D terran...) and against my 2gate robo 3gate charge, this was....horrible...
All I had to do was camp at my ramp and split your first army, which was easily demolished by 2 zealots 1 stalker and 1 sentry...I see no way for this to do ANY damage...
The 2 starports get scouted by the 2gate robo observer long before a raven is out, and if I see a terran massing marines I just go lolzealotsentry and 1a2a3f to win...
Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.)
The ground army gets demolished by 1/2 immortals and chargelots as well as archons/storm, and since you tech so hard it allows me to do a 2robo 3gate fast expand completely safely. I'll be on 2 bases before you even start to expo since all my gas goes into tech/hts since I'm massing chargelot.
replays coming soon. Just want to drop a quick note on sentry "anti-air," it takes 2 banshees 3 seconds to FF down a sentry; in comparison it takes 2 sentries about 9 seconds to kill a banshee. Also, you can't expect to be able to get a perfect split every game. Sounds like your friend sent in the hellion first; maras first can focus down the stalker and sentry, then kite zealots while marine and hellion offer fire support from behind FF. Also, you can bet that most toss players would have fewer zealots and more stalkers vs Terran; obviously you tailored your army to what you knew would walk up the ramp. I'm sure that you realize that the "winning push" comes way before you can go down 2 tech trees; you will either have observers or you will have charge with archives on the way.
You seem to forget that banshees are costly, and that I'll have a lot of excess gas to tech with when I go 2gate robo 3gate charge. I'll gladly play you, I'm a 1200 diamond toss with a 70-80% win rate vs terran. (courtesy of a program that checks all your replays, don't remember the name [at work], its on TL though.)
Gas management:
First 50 - Stalker
Next 100 - Sentry
Next 100 - Robo
Next 50 - Warpgate
Next 50 - Stalker
Next 100 - Observer
Next 100 - Council
Next 200 - Charge
Next 200 - Templarchives
Next 300 - 2 templar, morph to archon.
Next 200 - Storm
Add sentries if NEEDED, otherwise keep one/two to hold your ramp. If your observer scouts quick banshee, you can delay templar by 100-ish gas for two/three stalkers.
The gas costs for a terran far exceed that of a toss in this build, a RAVEN + 3-4 Banshees? The factory? The starport? The research for cloak if you go that path? The time it takes to get a substantial banshee count? The ground army of a toss will destroy the terran if he goes too banshee heavy, chargelots EAT marines. Then its just down to 2-3 feedback-raped banshees vs 1 archon and a few sentries.
I'll have zealot charge by the time you get to my base, with all the excess minerals dumped into zealots, and after I get charge its straight to HT's. Feedback comes on spawn for hts, and your push will come with banshees at 100+ energy. You forget that a rush to HT is for the archon, which EATS marines, and EATS banshees post-feedback.
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A LOT of THEORY CRAFTERS in here pointing out why this build wouldn't and won't work based off of unit compositions and not a thought regarding timing.
Sure, HT's might own this unit composition, but give it some thought on what it will cost you to get this HT out early. If you rush for the HT your resources are being used for something besides building a force (if you are building so and so sentries + blink stalkers + chargelots to fight this off, where the F are you going to get the gas to get HTs?) in which the "poke" will probably take you out.
Honestly, before dismissing it or bashing it, try the build out yourself or have an equal level Terran try this build on you. See what you can do.
If your strat beats it, post the replay.
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On September 04 2010 02:22 Newtybar wrote:
A LOT of THEORY CRAFTERS in here pointing out why this build wouldn't and won't work based off of unit compositions and not a thought regarding timing.
Sure, HT's might own this unit composition, but give it some thought on what it will cost you to get this HT out early. If you rush for the HT your resources are being used for something besides building a force (if you are building so and so sentries + blink stalkers + chargelots to fight this off, where the F are you going to get the gas to get HTs?) in which the "poke" will probably take you out.
Honestly, before dismissing it or bashing it, try the build out yourself or have an equal level Terran try this build on you. See what you can do.
If your strat beats it, post the replay.
I plan to do so when I get home in about two hours. The rush for HT doesn't hurt your unit count a bit, as the end goal is zealot/sentry into zealot/templar. When you dump your gas into tech with 2 stalkers and 3-ish sentries to FF, you have a LOT of gas to tech with. Look at the comparisons above.
Also, who goes blink stalker vs MMM anymore...? It's far too ineffective vs marauder heavy armies, chargelot templar works best as far as I've seen (700 league games played, 200 custom, all as toss.)
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On September 04 2010 02:22 Newtybar wrote:
A LOT of THEORY CRAFTERS in here pointing out why this build wouldn't and won't work based off of unit compositions and not a thought regarding timing.
Sure, HT's might own this unit composition, but give it some thought on what it will cost you to get this HT out early. If you rush for the HT your resources are being used for something besides building a force (if you are building so and so sentries + blink stalkers + chargelots to fight this off, where the F are you going to get the gas to get HTs?) in which the "poke" will probably take you out.
Honestly, before dismissing it or bashing it, try the build out yourself or have an equal level Terran try this build on you. See what you can do.
If your strat beats it, post the replay.
Two of my replays against OP have been posted. I think my build is very strong against 3-1-2, and it's also the standard build I use for PvT against everything (obviously adjusting if I see 4 rax or something...). It's very possible to hold the first 5 unit push with 1 gate->robo, and warp prism harass while getting HT allows you to hold against the first big push. As long as you survive there, HT really destroy marines/banshees/ravens.
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On September 03 2010 23:55 .ImpacT. wrote:Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.)
That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) and also ignoring the fact that Sentries are 100 more gas.
It's less that Sentries are underrated, it's more that we assume that they are worse in terms of DPS/life than Stalkers, but that simply isn't the case. Stalker with no Guardian Shield and Sentry with Guardian Shield against Marines is actually actually very comparable in terms of both life and damage and against Marauders Sentries are flat out better.
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On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 23:55 .ImpacT. wrote:Sentries do FAR better vs air than people give credit for, 1 sentry has just .2 DPS less than a marine, and if I go 2gate robo 3gate charge, I'll have HTs out quickly if I see banshees for feedback (equals almost dead/softened up banshees that lose to my sentry focus fire.) That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) and also ignoring the fact that Sentries are 100 more gas. It's less that Sentries are underrated, it's more that we assume that they are worse in terms of DPS/life than Stalkers, but that simply isn't the case. Stalker with no Guardian Shield and Sentry with Guardian Shield against Marines is actually actually very comparable in terms of both life and damage and against Marauders Sentries are flat out better.
You seem to forget that banshees are costly, and that I'll have a lot of excess gas to tech with when I go 2gate robo 3gate charge. I'll gladly play you, I'm a 1200 diamond toss with a 70-80% win rate vs terran. (courtesy of a program that checks all your replays, don't remember the name [at work], its on TL though.)
Gas management:
First 50 - Stalker
Next 100 - Sentry
Next 100 - Robo
Next 50 - Warpgate
Next 50 - Stalker
Next 100 - Observer
Next 100 - Council
Next 200 - Charge
Next 200 - Templarchives
Next 300 - 2 templar, morph to archon.
Next 200 - Storm
Add sentries if NEEDED, otherwise keep one/two to hold your ramp. If your observer scouts quick banshee, you can delay templar by 100-ish gas for two/three stalkers.
The gas costs for a terran far exceed that of a toss in this build, a RAVEN + 3-4 Banshees? The factory? The starport? The research for cloak if you go that path? The time it takes to get a substantial banshee count? The ground army of a toss will destroy the terran if he goes too banshee heavy, chargelots EAT marines. Then its just down to 2-3 feedback-raped banshees vs 1 archon and a few sentries.
I'll have zealot charge by the time you get to my base, with all the excess minerals dumped into zealots, and after I get charge its straight to HT's. Feedback comes on spawn for hts, and your push will come with banshees at 100+ energy. You forget that a rush to HT is for the archon, which EATS marines, and EATS banshees post-feedback.
Did you read that post?
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On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote:
That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim)
When they do the build in the OP? 
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On September 04 2010 03:13 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote:
That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) When they do the build in the OP?
Epic post is epic ^^
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I've used this type of build (3-1-2) but instead of having 2 tech labs I have one tech lab and one reactor, this lets me mass vikings if I see void rays. Also if you add more hellions and less marauders this build and "poke" work well vs zerg as well.
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On September 04 2010 03:13 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 03:03 whateversclever wrote:
That's assuming non-Stim (and when on earth are they not going to have Stim) When they do the build in the OP?
I was referring to the comment generally about Sentries being good anti-air. Not as it pertains to this build.
And that's why I didn't quote the remainder of the post, because I was speaking exclusively to the point of "Sentries are underrated anti-air units."
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On September 03 2010 18:42 Relapse916 wrote:Yea ive been practicing it and I think i just need to work on the multi tasking, I uploaded this replay if you have time to skim through it and point out anything I might need to work on im sure theres a bunch of things, I microed terrible in the poke and just got demolished with stalkers. maybe some of my timings are off with the build? http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/70999-1v1-terran-protoss-delta-quadrantthanks
Errm, the game ended a bit too quickly but here it goes.
1) first mistake, gas wasn't made till 15 which pretty much screws up everything
2) second gas before marine, what??
3) poke was super duper uber late, he should not have 4 stalkers at you base
4) you right clicked move causing you to take alot of free shots
5) you didn't follow the build at all T_T
At mid plat you should at least do the standard 10 supply, 12 barracks, 13 gas, 15 orbitial every single game. You didn't even get to use this build because you died so early.
Look under the new "build order" tab, I added a replay with perfect timing vs some newb, and listed the general BO.
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used it effectively in 2v2 vs zerg / protoss with partner massing marines... dominated O_o
because u r attacking early / constantly reinforcing, u do need some APM skills to keep the build from stagnating imo
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Wow this is an awesome build
Just owned a Protoss with it 
Thanks a ton
Ended my Protoss losing streak with it
Can't thank you enough
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mid diamond level game. the early Poke is so awesome, if it catches the opp off guard its so much win!
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-145739.jpg)
SUN TZU says "The art of war is winning the opponent without having to battle!"
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i think this is weak against gnial's opening for pvt any comments?
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On September 04 2010 11:09 GSang wrote:
i think this is weak against gnial's opening for pvt any comments?
I had this thought too. However, I'm not sure how "weak" it is. I mean, it's possible that the lack of early concussive lets protoss cripple the terran. I think that it's most likely that the build for terran gets slightly delayed by the earlier concussive, and that the terran player loses a unit or two. Thus, Gnial's opening may be a viable way of delaying/weakening the early push.
So I think the quick stalker push could be good, but I I think the void ray followup may not be very effective vs. this build.
Edit:
My friend started doing this opening, and I plan on trying the day9 fast stalker opening against it. I'll tell you how it goes.
I'm only high plat, but I think the way to exploit this 3-1-2 is to start with quick stalker harass one-gate core style, and then expo quickly. I think that if you can figure out a way to defend the push, you will have an economic advantage - you can put down your third after defending.
The protoss army should be mainly stalkers (10-15), with a couple sentries and a very small number of zealots, if any. Spectating a game or two, it looked like zealots are rather useless for defending the second push, although they are pretty useful for defending the initial poke.
I'm not sure if a robo is a necessity. It might be better to get a forge before expanding, start the +1 after expanding, and put down a cannon or two at your expo for detection. IMO the issue with observers is that the terran has little problem sniping it due to the large number of marines in the push.
Some theorycrafting:
-The observer route costs 200/200 for the robotics, and 25/75 for the observer, so 225/275
-The forge route costs 450 minerals for the cannons, 150 for the forge, so 600 minerals
So, it's 375 more minerals, and 275 less gas. I think gas is pretty critical for this army composition - stalker/sentry, so it seems like a fine trade to me. Furthermore, the observer can be sniped (raven gives terran free detection), and the forge is going to be used for that +1 (I don't include costs for the +1, because you can cut two units from your army and it will be fine).
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On September 04 2010 11:15 kandalf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 11:09 GSang wrote:
i think this is weak against gnial's opening for pvt any comments? I had this thought too. However, I'm not sure how "weak" it is. I mean, it's possible that the lack of early concussive lets protoss cripple the terran. I think that it's most likely that the build for terran gets slightly delayed by the earlier concussive, and that the terran player loses a unit or two. Thus, Gnial's opening may be a viable way of delaying/weakening the early push. So I think the quick stalker push could be good, but I I think the void ray followup may not be very effective vs. this build. Edit: My friend started doing this opening, and I plan on trying the day9 fast stalker opening against it. I'll tell you how it goes. I'm only high plat, but I think the way to exploit this 3-1-2 is to start with quick stalker harass one-gate core style, and then expo quickly. I think that if you can figure out a way to defend the push, you will have an economic advantage - you can put down your third after defending. The protoss army should be mainly stalkers (10-15), with a couple sentries and a very small number of zealots, if any. Spectating a game or two, it looked like zealots are rather useless for defending the second push, although they are pretty useful for defending the initial poke. I'm not sure if a robo is a necessity. It might be better to get a forge before expanding, start the +1 after expanding, and put down a cannon or two at your expo for detection. IMO the issue with observers is that the terran has little problem sniping it due to the large number of marines in the push. Some theorycrafting: -The observer route costs 200/200 for the robotics, and 25/75 for the observer, so 225/275 -The forge route costs 450 minerals for the cannons, 150 for the forge, so 600 minerals So, it's 375 more minerals, and 275 less gas. I think gas is pretty critical for this army composition - stalker/sentry, so it seems like a fine trade to me. Furthermore, the observer can be sniped (raven gives terran free detection), and the forge is going to be used for that +1 (I don't include costs for the +1, because you can cut two units from your army and it will be fine).
All these assumptions based on "what seems right" is always the wrong way to ever analyze a build. There are so many weaknesses to what you just posted, and even on paper there are too many flaws. You are just pulling out a stalker count out of your ass(10-15, like really?), and speculating that cannons are better than obs(which is one of the worst things to do, static defense gives Terran full map control, as well as making cloak banshees impossible to deal with).
Oh and zealots are probably the most important unit to beating this build, which is why I'm starting to like the idea of getting a techlab for marauder production if I know there are no stargates. You have it completely backwards, zealots are almost useless vs the poke since 3 maruaders, marine, hellion can kite them so easily or just target fire the low stalker count while kiting.
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On September 04 2010 11:43 superbabosheki wrote:
All these assumptions based on "what seems right" is always the wrong way to ever analyze a build. There are so many weaknesses to what you just posted, and even on paper there are too many flaws. You are just pulling out a stalker count out of your ass(10-15, like really?), and speculating that cannons are better than obs(which is one of the worst things to do, static defense gives Terran full map control, as well as making cloak banshees impossible to deal with).
I'm not suggesting to totally forgo the observer. I was just saying it might be better to start with cannons, and then get up the robotics as resources permit. Sure you're giving up some map control, but you can expand pretty safely. Then, once you get your observer out, you can go about trying to regain map cotnrol. Is it possible to keep an observer alive initially? Probably. It just must required a lot of micro. I just watched a low-mid diamond player fail two times in a row to keep it alive, and he lost both times to the cloaked banshees. Thus I am presenting the possibility of cannons - whether it actually could work I do not know.
Furthermore, I didn't mean to imply that you should go for a ton of zealots right away. I was just saying that they from what I understand they should be represented somewhat in the initial army composition for protoss.
Edit:
Perhaps you could share what you have found effective against your build?
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Just chiming in to say thanks to the OP. I have a few TvP openings but this one feels pretty strong. I feel like it suffers the same counters to standard Marine/Tank/Raven in that mass charge zealots (with stalkers mixed in) wipe out your marines far too quickly for the banshees to do their job. Regardless, I like opening this way now.
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EPT
