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On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote:
First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion.
I'd have to half way agree. 1 gate FE is my friends (900-1kdiamond) strat, and my poke failed miserably to a couple zealots and his probe swarm. To counter it, I just delayed my push a bit and made my own expansion and got a medivac. Banshees at one base, couple maurders and marines in the minerals of his main. You can make that protoss pay for fast expoing, while safely expoing and protecting yourself.
You have to, in some way, harm the protoss for fast expoing. If you don't, the dual chrono boost throws their macro into high gear and they can over come you with 4-5 gates. But, even still, I've faced a couple 1 gate FE protoss with this, and haven't lost to one yet.
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On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote:
First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding....
Just like Jengo said: this isnt an all-in.
Youre somewhat right at one thing though: 'IF P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.' The only problem is: This build is especially designed to counter a FE from the P.
If you, for whatever reason, cant destroy P in the period of time this build covers, you can still transition in whatever counters the units the P invested in.
Expansion-Builds are abundantly (sorry if I spelled that incorrect...) available on Liquipedia:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Terran_Strategy
Plz give this build a chance, it works.
See ya!
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All I have to say is, OMG this build rox, I tried it on 2 different protoss friends who usually win about half of the games we play against eachother.. the first one I beat twice, then he went OMG NERF RAVEN THIS IS SO IMBA and rage-quit battlenet, the other one I beat 9 times in a row before he finally managed to win, he owned my first push by forcefielding behind my army in the ramp and then killing my units with zealots.. he then mostly got zealots and a stalker or two.. I tried going some vikings because i had to do something, I guess maybe i should have added some tech labs for marauders to kite his zealots.. Anyways we stoped playing after this maybe I just played bad that game..
Anyways this strategy is the best TvP strategy I've ever seen
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To ppl saying this build is all in, its not. In SC2 terrans can recover from heavy economic disadvantages simply because they have mules. As a protoss who used to have a 50% winrate vs a terran friend of mine (we're both 900 diamond), now even when I tell him to specifically use this build only and I try to hard counter it, I've only won 1 out of like 5 games and that was cuz he messed up. I have no idea how to beat him when he does it. Fortunately I've never played a terran even close to as good as he is so so far it hasnt hurt my PvT winrate. But I suspect when i get to 1k+ or 1k1+ then terrans will actually be decent.
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On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote:
First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion.
You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp.
I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k.
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super, I know this build is insanely good, you can stop defending it. Just tell a sad P a decent way to play against it so that if I am the better player, I would have a good chance of winning.
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Did anyone try to use feedback in combination with force fielding the ramp as defense against it? I mean the Raven the Pdd and the banshees can all be the target of feedback. These seem to be the most important units in the push. Storm then would be the logical conclusion for the later stages of the game because the enemy is very marine heavy. So in theory this might work.
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On September 07 2010 02:47 Doppelganger wrote:
Did anyone try to use feedback in combination with force fielding the ramp as defense against it? I mean the Raven the Pdd and the banshees can all be the target of feedback. These seem to be the most important units in the push. Storm then would be the logical conclusion for the later stages of the game because the enemy is very marine heavy. So in theory this might work.
My friend used feedback on my raven before I got to put out PDD but I still beat his army I guess he used too much resources to tech into that fast HT's
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I'm losing after the poke ends to all in attacks even if I do damage. It hits before the raven gets up and usually kills me outright. I've put up two bunkers and he HAS busted through that before. That window is where I usually lose.
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On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote:
First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion. You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp. I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k.
You can stop the first poke dead cold with just 2 Zealots 3 Stalkers. You're in denial about your strat, it's an all in build with no transition. If the Protoss 1 Gate FE, your 10 minute push will do absolutely nothing to him since he has 4 Warpgates + Probes and way more resources than you. The only way you can win is with the first poke, but that all comes down to micro, and if you wanna gamble all your chips on winning on a single moment of clicking, go ahead.
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On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:
You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry.
I tried in the unit tester and I can only beat 2 zealot 3 stalker if I kill the stalkers and kite the zealots for ages, but in a real game they'd just get another stalker.
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On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:
You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry.
If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus)
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Open field, 2 zealots 3 stalkers vs 1hellion1marine3marauder. How? 1 gate robo will have the same number of units + cliff advantage so again, no sentry is needed.
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On September 07 2010 05:09 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:
You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry. If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus)
You've never encountered kcdc's 1 Gateway FE. His FE is based on a 4 Warpgate build with economy strength. The 1st gate way is constantly chronos boosted while he makes units. You're both on even ground, and in worse case scenario you both trade.
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On September 07 2010 05:10 Yaotzin wrote:
Open field, 2 zealots 3 stalkers vs 1hellion1marine3marauder. How? 1 gate robo will have the same number of units + cliff advantage so again, no sentry is needed.
I was referring to the 1 gate FE build where a Nexus is planted. And I have yet to see 2 zel and 3 stalkers by the time my poke comes in off ONE GATEWAY. Toss usually has 4 units total with the fourth just coming out, which is why a sentry is needed to stall.
There is no cliff advantage if a nexus is planted. In fact that favors terran with a mini arc on the bottom of the ramp.
On September 07 2010 05:17 superstartran wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:09 superbabosheki wrote:On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:
You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry. If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus) You've never encountered kcdc's 1 Gateway FE. His FE is based on a 4 Warpgate build with economy strength. The 1st gate way is constantly chronos boosted while he makes units. You're both on even ground, and in worse case scenario you both trade.
Watch every single one of my replays before you say I haven't played vs that build.
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On September 07 2010 05:20 superbabosheki wrote:
I was referring to the 1 gate FE build where a Nexus is planted.
Good, me too.
And I have yet to see 2 zel and 3 stalkers by the time my poke comes in off ONE GATEWAY.
Play less greedy FE'ers? I dunno I'd guess they aren't chronoing their gateway.
Toss usually has 4 units total with the fourth just coming out, which is why a sentry is needed to stall.
I'm not interested in what other people have. I have 2 zealots and 3 stalkers and I'm curious how you think you can win that fight. I tested it in YABOT and compared the timing to one of your replays FYI, I did not pull it out my ass. 2 zealots/2 stalkers (third walking down the ramp) in front of my nexus on steppes. I could tighten up, I only did it once and I'm tired.
There is no cliff advantage if a nexus is planted. In fact that favors terran with a mini arc on the bottom of the ramp.
Yes I was referring to the 1gate robo situation, saying it's the same + you have your cliff.
Don't get me wrong that push can absolutely punish greedy people, but it can't kill an FE designed for solidity.
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On September 07 2010 05:20 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:10 Yaotzin wrote:
Open field, 2 zealots 3 stalkers vs 1hellion1marine3marauder. How? 1 gate robo will have the same number of units + cliff advantage so again, no sentry is needed. I was referring to the 1 gate FE build where a Nexus is planted. And I have yet to see 2 zel and 3 stalkers by the time my poke comes in off ONE GATEWAY. Toss usually has 4 units total with the fourth just coming out, which is why a sentry is needed to stall. There is no cliff advantage if a nexus is planted. In fact that favors terran with a mini arc on the bottom of the ramp. Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 05:17 superstartran wrote:On September 07 2010 05:09 superbabosheki wrote:On September 07 2010 05:06 Yaotzin wrote:On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:
You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall.
No it's not, and you don't need a sentry. If you are building a nexus while the poke is coming, yes it is. And you do need a sentry to stall for ia few extra units in a normal situation(1 gate robo, no exposed nexus) You've never encountered kcdc's 1 Gateway FE. His FE is based on a 4 Warpgate build with economy strength. The 1st gate way is constantly chronos boosted while he makes units. You're both on even ground, and in worse case scenario you both trade. Watch every single one of my replays before you say I haven't played vs that build.
I've played versus your build all the time, it's not hard to beat. Your build is an all in with no transition, the first poke is easy to beat, you just shoot Mauraders while running Zealots at him. The Helion dies pretty fast. You beat the 10 minute push your set back tons of gas (2 Banshee and Raven die easily), and then the Toss proceeds to go roflstomp your ass.
None of them Chronosboosted their Gateway to get units out, that is the point of Chronos boosting, so you have extra units to hold off any early harass. One of them expoed at 24 IIRC, which is ultra greedy.
kcdc's build is designed to beat Raven pushes like this, so I have no idea why you say this "beats" FE builds. As long as you don't play ultra greedy, you should beat every T. The only reason to be ultra greedy vs T is if you think he will FE, then you can expo at 24. Otherwise get units out first then expo.
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Isn't it suppose to be beanhyung?
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On September 07 2010 02:38 superbabosheki wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 00:47 kcdc wrote:On September 06 2010 17:15 superbabosheki wrote:On September 06 2010 16:25 Jengo wrote:On September 06 2010 02:10 kcdc wrote:
First off, this build is an all-in. If P can expand and hold off the attack, T has essentially lost.
Secondly, this build will absolutely lose to a well-executed FE build from P. Anything involving ravens or banshees hits way too late to catch a FE build at a fragile stage.
It would be nice if some T players could churn up some guides on builds that involve expanding.... I guess if you consider anything thats not a FE an all in then this build is definitely all in. In now way is this build an all in. You can easily skip two cycles of marines hellions and have enough cash to bunker and expand. Its also a highly transitional build as you can easily switch tech by shifting a few buildings. To say if the P can expand and hold off the attack is a ridiculous assumption because if a P is FE they are going to get destroyed by the poke easily. Good post. I do feel that Protoss can actually 1 gate expo IF the terran doesn't bring an SCV to build a bunker in that situation(protoss can't engage the terran's poke units until the gateways after nexus are operational). The timing of the first raven push is also going to probably be around the same time Toss gets his techtree or gateway count up, leaving him very exposed. An scv all-in is almost impossible to stop since zealots instantly become useless(only all-in vs a FE toss if you know you can't catch up!). People don't seem to understand how easy it is to transition with this build. You have access to 3 raxes, 2 ports, 1 fact, two tech labs. Once the first raven push ends you can lift around and do almost anything from bunker/tank expo to 3 rax marauder, 2 port medivac with 4-6 raxes added once the expo is operational. Perhaps you're not facing good Protoss FE's....you absolutely cannot bust a 1-gate expand with 3 barracks of units and an scv for a bunker. I've played that out probably 20 times, and it's ugly for T. As for the raven timing being a point when a FE P is vulnerable.....you clearly don't have much experience against the PvT FE build.... Also, we understand that you have a lot of production buildings with this build, so you can make the 'right' units. You just don't have an economy. Any expansion after a push with a raven is by definition a late expansion. You do realize that holding off 3 maruaders, 1 marine, and 1 hellion is nearly impossible with one gateway since you need a sentry to stall. The poke will come after you plant your nexus so you will either have to cancel or hope to god he doesn't build a bunker under your ramp. I don't know what you mean by good protoss FE's but I played vs quite a few above 1k.
Dunno what to tell you....I expand at 30 food and there's no way you're busting my FE with that poke. Especially without stim, the idea is pretty laughable. 2 zealots and 2 stalkers off of one chronoboosted gateway will roll that poke and counter-push you while the expo is finished. We can play it out if you want, but there's just no chance that that tiny push would do any damage.
I'm not gonna argue about it any further tho. If people like the build, that's great. They should use it. We'll see if the style is still popular in a year.
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Yo superstartran, can you post some replays of you beating the build? I'm just curious.
Also if KCDC and someone that is competent in doing the build want to play a game I think it would actually add credibility to the thread / responses instead of all this theorycrafting.
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EPT
