EPTTvP 3-1-2 build. - Page 14
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dust7
199 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
On September 07 2010 06:40 kcdc wrote: Dunno what to tell you....I expand at 30 food and there's no way you're busting my FE with that poke. Especially without stim, the idea is pretty laughable. 2 zealots and 2 stalkers off of one chronoboosted gateway will roll that poke and counter-push you while the expo is finished. We can play it out if you want, but there's just no chance that that tiny push would do any damage. I'm not gonna argue about it any further tho. If people like the build, that's great. They should use it. We'll see if the style is still popular in a year. Funnily enough, I read this post just as someone decided to use the 3-1-2 build against me. If the game is any indication, kcdc's FE build smashes this easily. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-147010.jpg) Players are both between 900 and 1000 points. Judging from the few replays I downloaded of the OP using this build, my opponent in the replay actually sent the poke and the push a few seconds earlier than the OP. | ||
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
On September 07 2010 14:51 iamke55 wrote: Funnily enough, I read this post just as someone decided to use the 3-1-2 build against me. If the game is any indication, kcdc's FE build smashes this easily. Players are both between 900 and 1000 points. Judging from the few replays I downloaded of the OP using this build, my opponent in the replay actually sent the poke and the push a few seconds earlier than the OP. Uhm, you had two stalkers and two zealots when he hit you. If he microed at all or turned on healthbars, and brought an scv, he woulda smashed your fe. Marauders can move and shoot stalkers while kiting zealots, and once stalkers are gone zealots become worthless. vs a FE protoss though, would entirely skip first raven, research cloak, build one bunker on my ramp while getting a CC and having only one port after the poke(which obviously scouts it all). The first banshee does have a decent window to do some economic damage. One probe every 3 seconds an observer isn't out. another option is just to do an immediate CC and transition out of the build when the poke scouts it, which turns it into a standard tvp pretty much(since at this point terran is at 1 rax 1 fact, 1 port, nothing more nothing less). It will just turn into kcdc fe vs 1-1-1. Basically this means the build is actually versatile and can be transitioned out of quite easily, not all-in, just based on decision making. | ||
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Shady
Austria115 Posts
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Mr_Kzimir
France268 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On September 07 2010 15:07 superbabosheki wrote: Uhm, you had two stalkers and two zealots when he hit you. If he microed at all or turned on healthbars, and brought an scv, he woulda smashed your fe. Marauders can move and shoot stalkers while kiting zealots, and once stalkers are gone zealots become worthless. vs a FE protoss though, would entirely skip first raven, research cloak, build one bunker on my ramp while getting a CC and having only one port after the poke(which obviously scouts it all). The first banshee does have a decent window to do some economic damage. One probe every 3 seconds an observer isn't out. another option is just to do an immediate CC and transition out of the build when the poke scouts it, which turns it into a standard tvp pretty much(since at this point terran is at 1 rax 1 fact, 1 port, nothing more nothing less). It will just turn into kcdc fe vs 1-1-1. Basically this means the build is actually versatile and can be transitioned out of quite easily, not all-in, just based on decision making. 3 marauders, 1 marine and 1 hellion will lose to 2 zealots and 2 stalkers every time. Marauders are the same speed as zealots and have the same range as stalkers. They can either kite the zealots and take fire from the stalkers or shoot the stalkers and take hits from both the zealots and stalkers. In either case, P will win that fight. | ||
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Kryptix
United States138 Posts
On September 07 2010 20:55 kcdc wrote: 3 marauders, 1 marine and 1 hellion will lose to 2 zealots and 2 stalkers every time. Marauders are the same speed as zealots and have the same range as stalkers. They can either kite the zealots and take fire from the stalkers or shoot the stalkers and take hits from both the zealots and stalkers. In either case, P will win that fight. You can shoot and scoot (which I'm not that great at) and take out the zealots while out of range of the stalkers then just go in and pound the stalkers. My issue with this build is that I've tried it with probably a 40-50% success rate so far, and the times I get beat seem to usually go like this. My poke arrives, usually doing pretty even damage vs them, but they immediately counter with their next warp in and I only have marines hellions and an uncharged Raven at this point. Their attack lands either right as PDD charges but no ravens yet or when my raven is at 80-90 energy but with a smaller force. Either of these timings with stalker/immortal seems to be devastating because the hellion heavy army is useless vs immortal + stalker. I've actually had more success with this by building 1 tank 1 hellion trading off rather than pure hellions, occasionally pumping a viking instead of a banshee for gas reasons... | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
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Kryptix
United States138 Posts
On September 08 2010 01:43 Yaotzin wrote: You can't shoot and scoot when stalkers are faster than marauders... The Stalkers without the Zs can't kill any of your troops unless they focus the marine before the zealots die because of the hellion. At that point its 2 stalkers vs likely 3 half health marauders and a hellion and maybe a marine, T wins, then again about that time P reinforcements come so I just try to take out a few probes. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On September 08 2010 02:17 Kryptix wrote: The Stalkers without the Zs can't kill any of your troops unless they focus the marine before the zealots die because of the hellion. This doesn't make sense :/ At that point its 2 stalkers vs likely 3 half health marauders and a hellion and maybe a marine, T wins, then again about that time P reinforcements come so I just try to take out a few probes. Why would you have 3 half health marauders...P will focus fire and marauders can't run from stalkers.. | ||
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eecs4ever
United States106 Posts
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micjmac
42 Posts
On September 08 2010 03:13 eecs4ever wrote: yeah, lets see hyungbean vs KCDC ! :D +1 Talk is cheap. I'd like to see replay(s) of a best of 3 between these two. That should validate the debating here. I'm not taking sides, but that is the only way to settle this. | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
TLDR: kcdc's build is good and could probably hold up to this better than the more common openings because of the chronoboost on the gateway. Most openings emphasize getting warpgate a little faster or CBing probes. This one uses CB to mass up a strong ground army... stronger than typical non-FE builds... and then uses later CB's to make up for lost time or secure a macro advantage if the other guy had been cutting SCVs | ||
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Deleted User 47542
1484 Posts
On September 08 2010 07:05 micjmac wrote: +1 Talk is cheap. I'd like to see replay(s) of a best of 3 between these two. That should validate the debating here. I'm not taking sides, but that is the only way to settle this. 1 post weirdo o_o A bo3 wouldn't solve anything, nobody would do the same build 3 times in a row and it really isn't a debate vs the two builds just the initial poke, I can transition into any form of a 1-1-1 after the poke which serves as a scouting force as well as a pressure move. Plus we aren't bashing each other at all or anything so it's not really "talk." His build is good, really good in fact, the only one minor problem I have with it is that it is soft-countered by a 1 rax FE, a build that I think quite a few terrans still use as a standard. Two base terran with double mules can pump out so many units it's quite ridiculous. I do play a lot of protoss and find his build to be really successful vs almost all one base play, but it is pretty hard to pull off when T does the all in stimrush type of play. | ||
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
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JesseT
Australia3 Posts
but, it sounds like too much of all in where does all the gas come from to run 2 starport DX | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
On September 08 2010 20:55 JesseT wrote: it sounds good but, it sounds like too much of all in where does all the gas come from to run 2 starport DX There's enough gas seeing as everything else is mineral only. It does seem that an FE will stomp this, but it's like the OP said, you should adapt in that case. Either way I wouldn't rely on the poke to do much damage to the toss because it seems pretty reliant on both players micro, and at least for T, at the same time as the 'poke' you should be doing a lot of fiddly macro like switching tech labs and at least adding on Rax (if you want to stick to the original build). I think adapting with your own expansion is the way to go if your poke scouts an FE. | ||
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Domonkazu
Germany29 Posts
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