EPTOn May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
So stupid.
NonY Vs. IdrA (Spoiler alert) strat discussion - Page 5
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Vexx
United States462 Posts
So stupid. | ||
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Grettin
42381 Posts
On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote: take expansion. Build a bunch of shit. A-move. ^ Idra's build. And so what? Seems that he dominates with it and is one of the best players there is. | ||
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Lollersauce
United States357 Posts
On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote: take expansion. Build a bunch of shit. A-move. ^ Idra's build. You got another plan as Zerg? Use our awesome casters and abilities? Tech to ultras maybe? BTW, those vods are coming so sloooow.... | ||
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fathead
United States158 Posts
Any ways I missed the vod and I'm still waiting for it them to uploaded (hopefully I won't be on social security by then). But from what I read Idra was just in perfect form that night. He is going to have an edge over the NA/EU crowd so long as he remains in Korea getting paid to train all day. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
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Raneth
England527 Posts
On May 17 2010 23:00 rei wrote: You are talking about a situational advantage, not map advantage. Map advantage is always available such as a cliff over seeing expo is good for tanks and turbo noob, short rush distance is harder to set up defense before the attack comes. Taking the map advantage means using building order to abuse the map's features. Situational advantage with force field requires both positioning of the sentry and the positioning of the opposing army to work. the zerg does not need to fight near the ramp nor a choke, it is up to the players to decide/realize when/how/where to create an advantageous situation. Situational advantage is not always available. actually, im not confusing anything with anything, seeing as at no point did i say the words map advantage, you said he took advantage of the wide choke in game 2, that isnt true, it disadvantaged him. I am not saying idra had a map advantage, im saying, you were incorrect. EDIT: and just to show it did disadvantage, given that he chose to ramp block and go for the lair, which may not have been the best decision, on a small choke it would have been, he used what? 6 forcfields on the ramp? lost a few sentries from having to keep them close enough to readily re-make 3 forcfields at a time. On a small choke, that would have bought him easilly enough time to get down the lair, the hydra tech, the ling tech, would have been gg. potentially, or at least a base trade, but one person would still be able to produce, and that person would still have left over forcfields. Situational/map, dont care i only used the words advantaged/disadvantaged. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
You quoted me when I was talking about whether or not there is a map advantage, while not talking about map advantage, so that you can just to make me look wrong by putting up a straw man fallacy. | ||
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Raneth
England527 Posts
the person you were responding to said "Nony was at a bit of a disadvantage when it came to what maps came up?" you then said, there was no disadvantage for a protoss on that map, that wasnt also a disadvantage for zerg, i then showed that not to be the case. zerg are a less defensive, more mobile army than protoss (typically) a large ramp will always favour a zerg more, the fact it even hindered the sentry use in an attack only adds to the disadvantage. EDIT: I would also like to point out im not saying it is a -huge- disadvantage, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist. EDIT: Just to point out, i didnt have a problem with the map pool, becuase obviously if it had been a majority of maps with a small choke idra would have been -as- hindered as nony was. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
For situational advantage a player have to create the situation to make it into an advantage, it's more difficult to achieve. for example think about idra's ling run by, he creeated a situation in which he stretched nony's defense and bought himself a lot of time for his econ to kick in. Think of nony's play in game 2 in which he force field the ramp and attempt to kill the lair, nony has to create that situation, the map didn't do it for him. Whereas a map advantage of a cliff over seeing LT's natural is always there without a player to create that situation.(given that he still has to put the tank up the cliff, but he didn't create that cliff) by the way that cliff on LT doesn't just shut down expansion, even without an expansion, by putting tanks on the cliff means you are containing the other guy from coming out at all. The crossover of these 2 different advantages can be see in many of Flash's tvp games when he creates walls with rax/depot/ebay and take double expansion off 1 factory. In which he is taking advantage of an map advantage namely close 3rd gas, by creating a situational advantage in which he have a easier time defending with 1fact unit counts. "there was no disadvantage for a protoss on that map, that wasnt also a disadvantage for zerg, i then showed that not to be the case" What you shown were protoss can create a situation in which he can take advantage of a narrow choke or ramp. What I argued was both protoss and zerg can use the wide choke to by pass defense.(which by the way both nony and idra demonstrated by passing choke defense in game 1) We are in no way conflicting each other. Why does it have to be I'm wrong and you are right? | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
impressive PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta. | ||
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PanzerDragoon
United States822 Posts
On May 17 2010 06:29 spinesheath wrote: One thing's for sure: You can't just outmacro a zerg like Idra. Idra won the last game so decisively because Nony wasn't able to apply any real pressure at all. The first 2 games were more even because Nony kept Idra's economy better under control. Basically you have 3 options against Zerg: cheese, all in, keeping his economy down. And this will be true as long as spawn larva remains the same | ||
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Raneth
England527 Posts
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shiftY803
200 Posts
This series doesn't prove Zerg is imba, or zerg needs to have it's macro mechanics changed, or whatever other BS people are arguing about. The match proved that on Sunday, May 16, IdrA was able to beat NonY in a best of five match with a score of 3-0. End of story. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On May 18 2010 05:07 shiftY803 wrote: I think I get dumber every minute I spend reading these forums. IdrA did whatever he had to do to win. There is a big first prize in case people have forgotten. If he doesn't build lings and hydras, wtf is he supposed to be building? I mean seriously people, get over yourselves. This series doesn't prove Zerg is imba, or zerg needs to have it's macro mechanics changed, or whatever other BS people are arguing about. The match proved that on Sunday, May 16, IdrA was able to beat NonY in a best of five match with a score of 3-0. End of story. The fact that I am posting right here right now, also proves that I am breathing. It also tells a lot of other things about me, my surroundings, my language, etc. etc. etc. If everyone thought like that we could close these strategy forums, as every event can only be viewed in its special context and timeframe.. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
On May 18 2010 05:07 shiftY803 wrote: I think I get dumber every minute I spend reading these forums. IdrA did whatever he had to do to win. There is a big first prize in case people have forgotten. If he doesn't build lings and hydras, wtf is he supposed to be building? I mean seriously people, get over yourselves. This series doesn't prove Zerg is imba, or zerg needs to have it's macro mechanics changed, or whatever other BS people are arguing about. The match proved that on Sunday, May 16, IdrA was able to beat NonY in a best of five match with a score of 3-0. End of story. This. this. this. this. | ||
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nihlon
Sweden5581 Posts
On May 18 2010 04:59 ChickenLips wrote: so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what? impressive PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta. Innovation doesn't win games in itself. If you hadn't seen who it was playing you wouldn't be so damn condescending. Get over yourself. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On May 18 2010 05:18 nihlon wrote: Innovation doesn't win games in itself. If you hadn't seen who it was playing you wouldn't be so damn condescending. Get over yourself. Idra is the only REAL american Starcraft pro at the moment, practicing SC2 FULL TIME in KOREA with KOREAN PRO GAMERS, also he is, I believe in the top 3 of asian ladders. I think it is fair to expect more from such a player. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
Impressive indeed man. | ||
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ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On May 18 2010 05:25 OneFierceZealot wrote: @chicken expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person. While I feel compelled not to even waste my time responding to such a rude reply, I will write a few lines. I think I made clear in my original post, that I think that Idra was clearly dominating in regards to mechanics, he clearly knows his shit, with just an overall better economy, map control and decision making in terms of macro and timings. HOWEVER just seeing him go fast expansion, then trying to survive till hydras pop out, massing hydras and then just rolling over any army the opponent was able to muster up to that point, is not what I consider pro gaming, but that's probably just me as according to you "everyone" in here thinks Idra was kickass. With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game) | ||
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