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ZvP - Mass Hydra - Doom drop - Speedling harass - Expansionist build (fast expo)
I just lost earlier today against a fast expo mass hydra build as a toss and seeing NonY loosing to the same kind of build is really leaving me clueless.
Early game
I guess you can put pressure with chronos boosted zealot on 2 gates but that's not a game winning move and it delays your own tech + expansion. Making it even more worthless if you don't succeed at taking out your opponent's expansion considering yours have been delayed because of all that mineral spent on zealots.
At the moment your opponent really gets his expansion, you'll see 1 or 2 spine crawlers up and speedlings kicking in. Denying you the opportunity to attack him except if you go in an all in attack 4 or 5 warpgate push... and yet NonY tried that and failed.
Mid game
you should have your expansion by then and even earlier then that but still, later then your opponents'. The zerg have its hydras making it suicidal to push for a T1 protoss force except if you succeed at throwing down exceptionally nice force fields but even then... hydra's range upgrade render that useless as they can still shoot, it just exposes 'em a tad more to zealots.
You now have to choose carefully your next tech... immortals ? Not the best choice... Collosus ? Common choice but costly and you have to reach critical mass before putting 'em to real good use + termal lance. By then a normal zerg player will know that and have mutas or corrupters.
Templars ? I remember a game i don't know which players it was but the toss held at 2 base against a map wide zerg just with pure storm awesomeness against hydras ultras broodlords etc... it is the best build in my opinion.
But here's my point : you gotta try to expand out of your natural... and here's the huuuge problem as we've seen from NonY : speedlings can just harass you, forcing you to cover your expansion while hydras can doom drop your base all day long, doing hit and run with minimal losses.
You COULD get air of course... but to really be effective against the zerg's mass hydra go gotta invest all the resources you can gather into hard countering that tactic which leaves you almost no window for other techs.
Plus... the fact that you're on the defensive means the zerg is just expanding and out macroing you.
Any ideas ? What am I missing ?
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this is ur first post?
Anyways-
Plus... the fact that you're on the defensive means the zerg is just expanding and out macroing you.
This isn't StarCraft 1 style, I mean the theory still applies but it's not as devastating
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Chargelots with HT backup or collosus that tends to do well, also taking a second quickly is very strong, especially if you can block in to prevent the lings from getting in. more obs would have helped nony too.
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this shouldnt be a metagame strategy discussion. this should be an analysis as towards why nony had horrible micro and screwed up everything.
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High templar with storm demolish the 80 hp hydralisks and are not as exposed to air as collossi, you also have forcefield to get them to stay inside the storms, archon help alot with their + damage to bio, dark templars do alot of damage and are invisible.
Without roaches, zerg doesnt have any unit that functions as a tank against storm, thus high templar suddenly becomes this super viable unit that nobody thought about, as for the doom drop, well its not like zerg couldnt do that beforehand.
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Honestly, i think upgraded speedlots rip through ling and hydra pretty effectively when upgraded properly. if you had the right mix between zealots and sentries to control your opponents army, it would be very effective IMO.
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8748 Posts
I made a lot of mistakes in the first two games. I definitely wasn't executing as well as possible so I didn't do my ideas justice. As far as getting cross positions ZvP on Metalopolis... well, that's very difficult to play "normally". Anyway, I would advise not jumping to conclusions based on my series against IdrA because, in my opinion, it was pretty clearly just the case that IdrA wasn't making huge mistakes and I was.
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I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push).
What do you think about it?
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SPOILER:
Those games were awesome, can't wait for them to be up on youtube so I can take better notes on that mass hydra build 
It always seems like a race is imba when a good player gets wrecked by a better player. I think Nony tried some really great strats but just didn't have the proper execution against Idra. When he let all those zerglings slip into his base (1st game), and couldn't do anything about it cuz all the front door pressure, that was just really great play by Idra. I don't think there was anything Nony could have done. Game 2 was very close it seemed, but Idra's macro prevailed. And Idra's doom drops in game 3 really shook Nony's concentration.
What I'm trying to say is that Idra, being the pro gamer he is, created his own advantage and rode those advantages to victories. This does not mean that Zerg is imba and Protoss are useless. If Nony could have created his own advantages instead of letting Idra macro just a little bit too much, it would have been a different series.
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+ Show Spoiler +game 3 nony can just split up his army and defend properly, make some cannons before moving out
and the terrible micro losing all those colossus for nothing cost him the game
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Krayze, I don't agree about Idra being "better player" :-P They are both top player, and one them is amazing to look at while playing :-D
I don't see any fun in just massing Hydras
However, GG to everyone and thanks for the games, congratulations to both players.
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Nony, this might go better in the other thread but what do you think was the biggest reason you made those mistakes? Were you not prepared sufficiently for the matches and Idra's strategies, or was it just a sort of "shit happens" moment?
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8748 Posts
On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
The main problem with the Scrap Station game is deciding to use the Force Fields on the ramp to hold back Hydras rather than using Force Fields as a way to efficiently kill Hydras. Also, trying to kill the Lair rather than focusing on killing his army efficiently was a bad decision. The build I was doing needs to focus on killing his fighting units efficiently. Both of those decisions go counter to that. Once he has enough Hydras together, they are too strong. The build strikes just before that and needs to kill Hydras as they come out.
The Kulas game had plenty of poor micro decisions from me as well. The build I did wasn't the best either. My placement at my natural wasn't the best. I also tried to build a support bay and it didn't build so that was late.
On May 17 2010 06:26 Azarkon wrote:
Nony, this might go better in the other thread but what do you think was the biggest reason you made those mistakes? Were you not prepared sufficiently for the matches and Idra's strategies, or was it just a sort of "shit happens" moment?
IdrA is much better than any Zerg I played so he put up more resistance than I was used to. I also just made many more careless mistakes than I usually do. Whether this is from not enough practice, not enough practice against challenging opponents, not enough familiarity with SC2 yet, or just general fatigue, I don't know. I certainly think that with all the knowledge I have of PvZ so far, I could have put together a winning series. I just wasn't playing well enough.
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One thing's for sure: You can't just outmacro a zerg like Idra. Idra won the last game so decisively because Nony wasn't able to apply any real pressure at all. The first 2 games were more even because Nony kept Idra's economy better under control.
Basically you have 3 options against Zerg: cheese, all in, keeping his economy down.
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On May 17 2010 06:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:
IdrA is much better than any Zerg I played so he put up more resistance than I was used to. I also just made many more careless mistakes than I usually do. Whether this is from not enough practice, not enough practice against challenging opponents, not enough familiarity with SC2 yet, or just general fatigue, I don't know. I certainly think that with all the knowledge I have of PvZ so far, I could have put together a winning series. I just wasn't playing well enough.
I see. That does explain quite a bit, as I see you dominating Zergs on your stream without much sweat and that probably makes it a lot easier to not correct small - but significant - mistakes. I guess Idra really is on another level compared to the Zergs we have around here. But it's good to know that you feel confident about your builds as I really enjoy your style of play.
Good luck against TLO.
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NonY, Don't worry, We still Love you =D
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nony fighting! bring out merch! 
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Watched the games live, I wish the outcome had been the other way around but I agree with those who say that there was nothing especially wrong with the builds, just random small mistakes when it comes to execution and such things can easily turn an entire game, those zerglings getting into the main in game one for example. Had that gap in the wall been protected the entire game could had looked vastly different.
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what replay or vod is this, link?
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no vods yet; check hdstarcraft channel on youtube in a day or so
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Idra looked really, really sharp in these games.
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On May 17 2010 07:06 travis wrote:
Idra looked really, really sharp in these games.
Yeah that was my general impression as well. IdrA really stepped it up and brought his A-game to this series.
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On May 17 2010 07:06 travis wrote:
Idra looked really, really sharp in these games. Meaning he didn't accidentally cancel any hatcheries?
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Idra really suprised me by seemingly not beeing thrown off his game by the constant harassment at all. Looking at some older games (kotbh against cauthonluck for example) this always seemed to work very well to throw him off but here ...
So far in this tournament it seems that Idra has kept his amazing macro skills from before but has gotten rid off both his predictability (he now suddenly does an early ling rush when the chance appeared) and his inability to deal with too much cheese/harassment. Because of those i really didnt like Idras play that much before but i have to say right now iam just impressed. Idra got rid off his weak points while keeping his strong ones and seems to be hardly beatable right now. Although maybe White-Ra will show us how its done, he is an amazing player too after all.
And with much better manners than Idra too so i wish him luck 
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Quick question for Nony.
I really like watching the evolution of your 3 gate into expand strat but your new version of it didn't involve hallucination and got obs as your first scout. Is that safe against 2 base mutalisks? When (if at all) were you planning to get a stargate or how were you going to defend the possibility of mutas? Just trying to understand the thought process :D
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I really thought Nony had that second game, like he said if he had let around half those hydras up the ramp then FF off the ramp and picked off the hyrdas then he could have thrown up his expo and I think he would have been in real good shape. Nony made some mistakes, but I wouldnt take anything away from idra he played real well, even if Nony hadn't made those mistakes I think it would have been real tough for him to win the way Idra is playing. Everyone has to rememmber everyone else has real life stuff going on Idra's real life is SC2
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gg nony, i feel your pain. i bet its general fatigue. its hard to train as relentlessly AND efficient as 10 years ago  Lets see the bright side: who wants to see two toss in the finals anyways?
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Don't worry Nony, from what I heard Idra has to wash EffOrt's clothes.
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colossi are extremely strong vs mass hydras, that reall is the counter. Idra circumvented by making drops, but with better basedefence I think nony could have won.
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Yeah. IdrA's snipe with the mutas was pretty perfect though. Nony divided his army for a moment and IdrA exploited it. Props to him for that play and the fact that he was able to keep his entire drop after doing terrible, terrible damage alive unlike most players who do drops. This allowed him to drop a second time forcing Nony into all-in mode.
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I have to agree NonY made some critical mistakes but still, and here's my point, I feel like that FE mass hydra build is stronger then any build known for protoss. There are so many things that can go wrong on the protoss side no matter his build and so little on the zerg side.
Air - ground - defense - offense... I don't say it is OP, only that i wouldn't have the same level of confidence doing any kind of toss opening that I feel like i'd have doing IdrA's opening. There's 2 possible reasons for that :
1 : I'm noob or haven't played enough with toss or as Krayze said : «It always seems like a race is imba when a good player gets wrecked by a better player.»
2 : Toss have yet to find a build reliable enough versus FE mass hydra to give you that level of confidence.
I would choose half/half of those options, why ? Because protoss seems to rely so heavily on good forcefield, awesome unit placement and very good feeling of the game to react, scout and split your armies at the good spot at the good time. While I feel like zerg's focus isn't the same. Is it easier ? I wouldn't dare say something like that... but yet... something feels weird...
That's why i'd say I need to polish my skillzzz and we need to find a more solid build against such a tactic
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IdrA is much better than any Zerg I played so he put up more resistance than I was used to. I also just made many more careless mistakes than I usually do. Whether this is from not enough practice, not enough practice against challenging opponents, not enough familiarity with SC2 yet, or just general fatigue, I don't know. I certainly think that with all the knowledge I have of PvZ so far, I could have put together a winning series. I just wasn't playing well enough.
Hi Nony.
I was used to watching IdrA make mass mass roaches and almost no variation from his playstyle in the previous tournaments he had played.
Since the roach nerf IdrA has obviously switched up his builds a bit to be basically hydra based with no roaches at all (infact I don't think he made a single roach in that entire series).
Do you think it is harder to beat a Zerg player who bases their army on roaches or a zerg player who bases their army on Hydras.
And do you think IdrA has gone from being a good player at SC2 to possibly being the best Zerg player overnight purely because he isn't just making 1 unit spam (roaches) anymore and he is actually doing other builds.
And finally, alot of players I know from EU regard you as the best U.S. player at the moment, do you see yourself that way and do you think you sold yourself short a bit against IdrA or was he just very very good?
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Very nice forcefield micro and phoenix harassment made me really want for Nony to win. But Idra just played better today and deserved to move on to the finals. I guess it is not easy to look cool with Zerg in SC2 as it was in the original game (with units like defliers and lurkers missing), but he really played solid games. He displayed very nice timing (game 3), and micro when defending (first push game 2), and overall, quite well capitalized on mistakes made by Nony. Nony had a chance to win in all of those games so I feel bad that he got 3:0d. Wish him better luck versus TLO !
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The drone count difference in game 1 and 3 (game 2 as well, but that's what happens with no expo) got pretty obscene. I think that just shows how well Idra played and walked that fine line between drone production and unit production.
I have to admit, even as a zerg I was rooting a bit for NonY, mostly because the FF micro was pretty sweet. Then again Idra had some great hydra and zerg micro as well.
I kinda wonder if the urge to try and finish out the game early was what cost NonY. I know zerg are still beast with late game macro, but it almost seems like the zerg army was still being treated with the same fear of a 200/200 army as patch 11.
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Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see the games, but I know both players are good players so I am sure they were good. By chance anyone have the replays or streams for them?
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United States12607 Posts
On May 17 2010 08:43 krowe wrote:Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see the games, but I know both players are good players so I am sure they were good. By chance anyone have the replays or streams for them?
come on dude. From the first page of this thread:
On May 17 2010 06:54 stroggos wrote:
what replay or vod is this, link?
On May 17 2010 07:01 nodule wrote:
no vods yet; check hdstarcraft channel on youtube in a day or so
The match we're talking about in here was played in this tournament, FYI. Now you can follow along too!
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Hehe my bad, I don't read all of the posts obviously, I skim through some.
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I was really excited by the phoenix micro in the second game. Admittedly, NonY didn't quite pull it off, but when he killed those queens, me and my friends were cheering pretty hard. I'm looking forward to some good games between NonY and TLO.
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I was really cheering for NonY as well. His playstyle is very enjoyable to watch IMO.
To be honest, IdrA played extremely well. But I don't necessarily think that he is the better player, things just seemed to click with his macro hydra build against NonY's strats. I am sure there was a lot of planning behind that. Also, the minor "micro" mess-ups by NonY did probably affect the outcome somewhat, whereas I think IdrA didn't really make any mess-ups (though his builds did seem less micro dependant).
But I am really looking forward to seeing more of NonY, I am kinda new to the SC scene but so far he is probably my fav player so far. NonY if you read this, good luck on your final games in this tournament!
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It was amazing play by Idra, and mistake by nony in this series.
in game 1, idra knew exactly how many ling he needed to make to defend the first attack. Mid way through the fight we can see idra was pumping and maynerding drones from his main to his expo while the fight still going on! The fight ended with about 4 zerglings left standing. Then nony made a mistake in decision making when he allow the lings get by his choke into his main. This creates a scenario in which idra stretched nony's defense with speed. I think the correct decision would be force field the choke with few sentries to protect expansion and clear out the ling and then go from there. But that's the time exactly what idra needed, and gone is nony's timing attack before enough hydra came into play.
Game 2 nony played it perfect until his micro failed during the first engagement, in which he didn't gravitate any hydras as they kept poping out one by one. I was sure idra was dead at that point but once he survived it was all over.
Game 3 was great play by idra with the drops which stretch nony's defense when he find out nony wanted to take a 3rd. and nony's could have done a lot better in his attack if he kept his colousi together with his stalkers/sentries. I think 2 of them were picked off before nony's units united.
There is always a next time nony!, and great play from idra. GGs
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dont forgett - idra's crazy - he gets so into this that he watched orb's stream to watch his play. im sure he has been watching nony's stream too to formulate lots of counterbuilds. he doesnt go to school like nony. he just does this shit all day.
dont get me wrong, Idra is a GREAT player. but he did have that advantage
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Today idra is the better player, and nony usually doesn't play for real when he's streaming, i saw many games in which he was massing scouts when he bash A+ korean noobs on iccup. This series idra is showing pretty good adaptation and anticipation based on what he scouts. He didn't have show us any of that back then.
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Just out of curiosity, did anyone else feel like Nony was at a bit of a disadvantage when it came to what maps came up? In all of the games, especially the first and third, the maps that came up were did not have more easily defendable choke points, allowing for things like the lings rushing into Nony's main. This gave Idra a bit of an advantage over Nony, in that he could expand quicker and be ready to defend it, while Nony was forced to wait longer on his natural expansions because of how wide open the expansions were. Other thoughts/opinions?
Edit: I am biased towards Nony just because I like him, his playstyle, and his race more. ^_^
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no map advantage. Because same thing goes for idra too, in game 1 nony was able to run pass the spine crawlers and idra had to survived by pure lings. In both game 1 and game 2 nony took advantage of the wide choke.
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one thing to note is: No offence to NonY, but Idra is a stronger player, so although you MAY think that there is no counter as T, there definatly is.
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On May 17 2010 10:52 rei wrote:
no map advantage. Because same thing goes for idra too, in game 1 nony was able to run pass the spine crawlers and idra had to survived by pure lings. In both game 1 and game 2 nony took advantage of the wide choke.
Thanks Rei, you're right and I do appreciate the help in educating myself. :D
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can anyone give a rough build order that idra did? thatd be great =] since no replays are going to be available T^T
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at least nony probably wasnt paid 1million won to throw the match....
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Calgary25974 Posts
On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push).
What do you think about it?
I think you should look harder.
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On May 17 2010 11:12 santoki wrote:
can anyone give a rough build order that idra did? thatd be great =] since no replays are going to be available T^T
He did 15pool 16hatch, speedlings into mass hydra
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On May 17 2010 11:38 Zerokaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 11:12 santoki wrote:
can anyone give a rough build order that idra did? thatd be great =] since no replays are going to be available T^T He did 15pool 16hatch, speedlings into mass hydra
Did he double evo chamber every game? I couldn't really tell. Upgrades seemed to be very important to his BO.
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Its also idrA playing as a the zerg
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Not sure if he double evo chambered but he definitely got two queens early on, and lots of zerglings + some spine crawlers for defense. His biggest advantage, which most Zergs don't have, is his game sense, which allowed him to have just the right amount of fighting units in every encounter to defend against Nony's pushes, but which didn't prevent him from out-macroing via drone pump simultaneously. Too often I see Zergs get busted because they drone pumped too hard, or out-macro'd because they had too many fighting units. This did not happen to Idra here and he seems to have a general mastery of the timings in PvZ.
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On May 17 2010 10:52 rei wrote:
no map advantage. Because same thing goes for idra too, in game 1 nony was able to run pass the spine crawlers and idra had to survived by pure lings. In both game 1 and game 2 nony took advantage of the wide choke.
in game 2 he was actually disadvantaged by it, if it had been a normal sized ramp a single forcefield could have kept every hydra out at a time, instead, he needed 3 forcfields per go. When you count sentries and the mobility of zerg, smaller chokes deffinatly favour a toss.
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Idra sure brings it when big cash is on the line. Where is Smuft, and when is the big one going down?
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On May 17 2010 12:45 0neder wrote:
Idra sure brings it when big cash is on the line. Where is Smuft, and when is the big one going down?
pretty sure that got called off
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Lets face it; Idra is a beast. Any race he had choosen to play for sc2, he would have been successful with, and people running to the forums shouting Imba. Its not the race that is OP, its Idra.
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On May 17 2010 12:14 Mogget wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 10:52 rei wrote:
no map advantage. Because same thing goes for idra too, in game 1 nony was able to run pass the spine crawlers and idra had to survived by pure lings. In both game 1 and game 2 nony took advantage of the wide choke. in game 2 he was actually disadvantaged by it, if it had been a normal sized ramp a single forcefield could have kept every hydra out at a time, instead, he needed 3 forcfields per go. When you count sentries and the mobility of zerg, smaller chokes deffinatly favour a toss.
In game 2 NonY alr admitted that it was a mistake to keep the hydras out in the first place, his build was to pick off hydras using the forcefield. In that game even if the lair did go down, Idra would have still won.
However if we talk about map advantage, big maps tend to favour Idra because he is a macro player, and all 3 games were big maps (scrap station being long rush distance). The HDH should have a big map as first game, and small map as second or sth like that
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On May 17 2010 16:02 Nitron wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 12:14 Mogget wrote:On May 17 2010 10:52 rei wrote:
no map advantage. Because same thing goes for idra too, in game 1 nony was able to run pass the spine crawlers and idra had to survived by pure lings. In both game 1 and game 2 nony took advantage of the wide choke. in game 2 he was actually disadvantaged by it, if it had been a normal sized ramp a single forcefield could have kept every hydra out at a time, instead, he needed 3 forcfields per go. When you count sentries and the mobility of zerg, smaller chokes deffinatly favour a toss. In game 2 NonY alr admitted that it was a mistake to keep the hydras out in the first place, his build was to pick off hydras using the forcefield. In that game even if the lair did go down, Idra would have still won. However if we talk about map advantage, big maps tend to favour Idra because he is a macro player, and all 3 games were big maps (scrap station being long rush distance). The HDH should have a big map as first game, and small map as second or sth like that
thats not what i said, i was just correcting someone, i never said that was why he lost, im just saying, smaller chokes favour toss. Also, not sure about big maps favouring idra, nony has insane mechanics aswell.
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IdrA played so sweet that it got my love back for the little Zerg bugs. I was really exited by the third game, just because NonY had such a good unit composition (not talking about unit placement/movement) and seeing how detrimental Hydras can be, was really astonishing. People complained so much after the Roach nerf and barely used other tools - like drop oder early Ling harass. IdrA really used the available tools, like dropping, perfectly and even with 4-5 cannons in NonY's base, 4 fully loaded Overlords with Hydras would have done enough damage to force NonY to splitup his forces and subsequently threaten a kill of his 3rd base.
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?!
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NonY <3. GL against TLO.
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Alright, so there are no VODS or replays available yet, but how come everyone already know exactly how the games were played out? Were they present on the tourny`?
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On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?!
Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2?
That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol.
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Since NonY seems to actually read this thread, I'd like to post a question at NonY,
I watched the game live and my impression was, sure enough your build was well planned, with the recent nerf to sentries the sentrie push itself does not pull out enough damage without having enough damage dealers around. I felt like the game on Kulas Ravine was a prime example for that - what is your opinion about that?
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I was very impressed by Idra in that series. He played with a speed that I haven't seen in SC2 yet.
Nony delivered too but as he said made some crucial mistakes.
Don't read too much into balance from this. We're seeing really good play but we're a long way away from fantastic play; the likes of which we see every week in PL etc..
Nony miscontrolled his army a few times, uncharacteristically. Unlike BW I find that Protoss has more actions that Zerg in SC2 which makes the multi-tasking really tough. With Practice Nony will get there.
Idra used some of Zergs powerful gimmicks in that game but he could've added banelings and infestors to complete the Zerg arsenal.
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Generally you can get 2-3 zealots in before the spine crawlers are up. I find that if you keep pumping chronoed zealots in his ling are never enough to hold, and you can always focus his spine crawlers as they come while keeping zealots on the hatchery when not doing anything else.
Also, on a lot of maps you can walk right by the spine crawlers and take out a large number of drones at his main with a small group of zealots.
If you know you've failed there then you're behind, it's going to be hard to catch up by expanding, I think your best bet would be a timing push with ~1 immortal then expanding while he recovers.
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On May 17 2010 18:58 KaiserJohan wrote:
Alright, so there are no VODS or replays available yet, but how come everyone already know exactly how the games were played out? Were they present on the tourny`?
The tournaments were streamed live on HD/Huskys ustream channel (I forget which).
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Did Idra go up against Terran in this Tourney? Why did they mix up mirror matches in the early run...could have swapped things around.
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On May 17 2010 21:29 FuryX wrote:
Did Idra go up against Terran in this Tourney? Why did they mix up mirror matches in the early run...could have swapped things around.
To ensure the later rounds have no mirror matches.
Hint:
If QF = PvP and ZvZ, SF = ZvP.
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On May 17 2010 22:04 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 21:29 FuryX wrote:
Did Idra go up against Terran in this Tourney? Why did they mix up mirror matches in the early run...could have swapped things around. To ensure the later rounds have no mirror matches. Hint: If QF = PvP and ZvZ, SF = ZvP.
But they almost had a PvP in the final round
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Collossis/masstalker is the answer to the OP btw. Thats the best composition vs masshydra with possible corrupters. But people seem to forget that composition is only a small part, micro, makro, positioning and smart play will win you the game.
If my suggestion above dosent work, work to become a better player and youll see that you will beat masshydra consistently. (which in turn will force the z-player to become smarter and thus the evolution begins).
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The match was defined by small details. The ling infiltration in nonys base, destroying his economy, was a minor micro mismanagment (a single zealot wallin in would change the outcome of that for sure).
A lack of profiting from won battles, when Nony walled himself in at Hydras base, he should have commited with one task, the Hatchery or the Drones. But his units where all over the place hitting random units, buildings, even at some times eggs.
And the 2 fronts attacks that Hydra used were really effective. First with the ling filtration thing, after with the denied third expo that controled his army positioning with a simultaneous drop.
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On May 17 2010 12:14 Mogget wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 10:52 rei wrote:
no map advantage. Because same thing goes for idra too, in game 1 nony was able to run pass the spine crawlers and idra had to survived by pure lings. In both game 1 and game 2 nony took advantage of the wide choke. in game 2 he was actually disadvantaged by it, if it had been a normal sized ramp a single forcefield could have kept every hydra out at a time, instead, he needed 3 forcfields per go. When you count sentries and the mobility of zerg, smaller chokes deffinatly favour a toss.
You are talking about a situational advantage, not map advantage.
Map advantage is always available such as a cliff over seeing expo is good for tanks and turbo noob, short rush distance is harder to set up defense before the attack comes. Taking the map advantage means using building order to abuse the map's features.
Situational advantage with force field requires both positioning of the sentry and the positioning of the opposing army to work. the zerg does not need to fight near the ramp nor a choke, it is up to the players to decide/realize when/how/where to create an advantageous situation. Situational advantage is not always available.
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On May 17 2010 21:29 FuryX wrote:
Did Idra go up against Terran in this Tourney? Why did they mix up mirror matches in the early run...could have swapped things around.
They invited three Terrans (out of 16). Two were knocked out in the Ro16 and one was knocked out in the Ro8. This was before the Terran buffs and meta-game changes that really made Terrans a force to contend with, so it's not unexpected.
IdrA was also probably deliberately put in the same bracket as ret, orb, LzGamer, and Nony, for the potential drama factor. He never managed to meet LzGamer, though, because ret did an amazing upset in the Ro16.
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On May 17 2010 22:17 Tenks wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 22:04 Slayer91 wrote:On May 17 2010 21:29 FuryX wrote:
Did Idra go up against Terran in this Tourney? Why did they mix up mirror matches in the early run...could have swapped things around. To ensure the later rounds have no mirror matches. Hint: If QF = PvP and ZvZ, SF = ZvP. But they almost had a PvP in the final round
maybe they should just fix all games beforehand, then all mirror matchs could be avoided.............
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Seeing the excellent force fields that went down, I think nony could've owned mass hydras by boxing them in and storming the crap out of em. 1-2 HT during game 2 could've wrecked all those hydras on the ramp if he managed to box them in.
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Sry if this was asked before, but where can I watch the replays (VODs?)
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i think i saw zealots being silly and running around doing nothing on the scrap station game when u blocked out the hydra army which deffinitely wouldn't have helped. =(
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take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
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On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
So stupid.
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On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
And so what? Seems that he dominates with it and is one of the best players there is.
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On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
You got another plan as Zerg? Use our awesome casters and abilities? Tech to ultras maybe?
BTW, those vods are coming so sloooow....
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I love reading posts from silver players trying to tell the top NA/EU players what to do.
Any ways I missed the vod and I'm still waiting for it them to uploaded (hopefully I won't be on social security by then). But from what I read Idra was just in perfect form that night. He is going to have an edge over the NA/EU crowd so long as he remains in Korea getting paid to train all day.
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are there VODs of these games?
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On May 17 2010 23:00 rei wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 12:14 Mogget wrote:On May 17 2010 10:52 rei wrote:
no map advantage. Because same thing goes for idra too, in game 1 nony was able to run pass the spine crawlers and idra had to survived by pure lings. In both game 1 and game 2 nony took advantage of the wide choke. in game 2 he was actually disadvantaged by it, if it had been a normal sized ramp a single forcefield could have kept every hydra out at a time, instead, he needed 3 forcfields per go. When you count sentries and the mobility of zerg, smaller chokes deffinatly favour a toss. You are talking about a situational advantage, not map advantage. Map advantage is always available such as a cliff over seeing expo is good for tanks and turbo noob, short rush distance is harder to set up defense before the attack comes. Taking the map advantage means using building order to abuse the map's features. Situational advantage with force field requires both positioning of the sentry and the positioning of the opposing army to work. the zerg does not need to fight near the ramp nor a choke, it is up to the players to decide/realize when/how/where to create an advantageous situation. Situational advantage is not always available.
actually, im not confusing anything with anything, seeing as at no point did i say the words map advantage, you said he took advantage of the wide choke in game 2, that isnt true, it disadvantaged him. I am not saying idra had a map advantage, im saying, you were incorrect.
EDIT: and just to show it did disadvantage, given that he chose to ramp block and go for the lair, which may not have been the best decision, on a small choke it would have been, he used what? 6 forcfields on the ramp? lost a few sentries from having to keep them close enough to readily re-make 3 forcfields at a time. On a small choke, that would have bought him easilly enough time to get down the lair, the hydra tech, the ling tech, would have been gg. potentially, or at least a base trade, but one person would still be able to produce, and that person would still have left over forcfields.
Situational/map, dont care i only used the words advantaged/disadvantaged.
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Notice I have not disagree with you? I agree with force field on small ramp favors protoss if protoss can create the situation to seal off zerg army from saving base. And yet you are still arguing and saying i'm wrong? You were unable to see the difference between what i was disucssing with another poster and what you are trying to convey. I educated you on that difference, so we can resolve our misunderstanding, yet you reply by saying "don't care" about what i'm saying because i'm wrong.
You quoted me when I was talking about whether or not there is a map advantage, while not talking about map advantage, so that you can just to make me look wrong by putting up a straw man fallacy.
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This is not straw man, you said i was confusing one this with another, i said im not. Also, from how im reading you, it seems like your saying there is no crossover between situational and map, im not sure how a potential advantage or disadvantage, which relies on how the map is created, could be interpreted as anything other than a map advantage, there is clearly crossover between the two, sure, for nony to be disadvantaged there, it required idra to be outside his main, however, to take advantage of the tank drop on lt it requires my opponent to take his nat and not go for one base play, also a small choke would allow more risky protoss play from the ability to defend.
the person you were responding to said "Nony was at a bit of a disadvantage when it came to what maps came up?"
you then said, there was no disadvantage for a protoss on that map, that wasnt also a disadvantage for zerg, i then showed that not to be the case.
zerg are a less defensive, more mobile army than protoss (typically) a large ramp will always favour a zerg more, the fact it even hindered the sentry use in an attack only adds to the disadvantage.
EDIT: I would also like to point out im not saying it is a -huge- disadvantage, but that doesnt mean it doesnt exist.
EDIT: Just to point out, i didnt have a problem with the map pool, becuase obviously if it had been a majority of maps with a small choke idra would have been -as- hindered as nony was.
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At least you agree there is a difference between what we are talking about, and I agree with your point about there is crossover between the 2.
For situational advantage a player have to create the situation to make it into an advantage, it's more difficult to achieve. for example think about idra's ling run by, he creeated a situation in which he stretched nony's defense and bought himself a lot of time for his econ to kick in. Think of nony's play in game 2 in which he force field the ramp and attempt to kill the lair, nony has to create that situation, the map didn't do it for him.
Whereas a map advantage of a cliff over seeing LT's natural is always there without a player to create that situation.(given that he still has to put the tank up the cliff, but he didn't create that cliff) by the way that cliff on LT doesn't just shut down expansion, even without an expansion, by putting tanks on the cliff means you are containing the other guy from coming out at all.
The crossover of these 2 different advantages can be see in many of Flash's tvp games when he creates walls with rax/depot/ebay and take double expansion off 1 factory. In which he is taking advantage of an map advantage namely close 3rd gas, by creating a situational advantage in which he have a easier time defending with 1fact unit counts.
"there was no disadvantage for a protoss on that map, that wasnt also a disadvantage for zerg, i then showed that not to be the case"
What you shown were protoss can create a situation in which he can take advantage of a narrow choke or ramp. What I argued was both protoss and zerg can use the wide choke to by pass defense.(which by the way both nony and idra demonstrated by passing choke defense in game 1)
We are in no way conflicting each other. Why does it have to be I'm wrong and you are right?
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so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what?
impressive
PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta.
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On May 17 2010 06:29 spinesheath wrote:
One thing's for sure: You can't just outmacro a zerg like Idra. Idra won the last game so decisively because Nony wasn't able to apply any real pressure at all. The first 2 games were more even because Nony kept Idra's economy better under control.
Basically you have 3 options against Zerg: cheese, all in, keeping his economy down.
And this will be true as long as spawn larva remains the same
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i'll take your point, but i still say that wide ramps favour zerg slightly more, typically larger armies, no units that can walk over the side (e.g. colossus) more army speed usually, and zergs also are less reliant on ramp blocks generally speaking, so yes, although it does allow run by for both sides i still think it -slightly- favours zerg to have a more open choke, like i would think that a more open choke would give protoss a slight advantage against terran, although then i suppose there are helions to consider. But yeah, im basically not dissagreing with you in any huge way, i just think that if you -really- look at it, zerg -slightly- benifit.
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I think I get dumber every minute I spend reading these forums. IdrA did whatever he had to do to win. There is a big first prize in case people have forgotten. If he doesn't build lings and hydras, wtf is he supposed to be building? I mean seriously people, get over yourselves.
This series doesn't prove Zerg is imba, or zerg needs to have it's macro mechanics changed, or whatever other BS people are arguing about. The match proved that on Sunday, May 16, IdrA was able to beat NonY in a best of five match with a score of 3-0. End of story.
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On May 18 2010 05:07 shiftY803 wrote:
I think I get dumber every minute I spend reading these forums. IdrA did whatever he had to do to win. There is a big first prize in case people have forgotten. If he doesn't build lings and hydras, wtf is he supposed to be building? I mean seriously people, get over yourselves.
This series doesn't prove Zerg is imba, or zerg needs to have it's macro mechanics changed, or whatever other BS people are arguing about. The match proved that on Sunday, May 16, IdrA was able to beat NonY in a best of five match with a score of 3-0. End of story.
The fact that I am posting right here right now, also proves that I am breathing. It also tells a lot of other things about me, my surroundings, my language, etc. etc. etc. If everyone thought like that we could close these strategy forums, as every event can only be viewed in its special context and timeframe..
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On May 18 2010 05:07 shiftY803 wrote:
I think I get dumber every minute I spend reading these forums. IdrA did whatever he had to do to win. There is a big first prize in case people have forgotten. If he doesn't build lings and hydras, wtf is he supposed to be building? I mean seriously people, get over yourselves.
This series doesn't prove Zerg is imba, or zerg needs to have it's macro mechanics changed, or whatever other BS people are arguing about. The match proved that on Sunday, May 16, IdrA was able to beat NonY in a best of five match with a score of 3-0. End of story.
This. this. this. this.
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On May 18 2010 04:59 ChickenLips wrote:
so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what?
impressive
PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta.
Innovation doesn't win games in itself. If you hadn't seen who it was playing you wouldn't be so damn condescending. Get over yourself.
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On May 18 2010 05:18 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 04:59 ChickenLips wrote:
so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what?
impressive
PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta. Innovation doesn't win games in itself. If you hadn't seen who it was playing you wouldn't be so damn condescending. Get over yourself.
Idra is the only REAL american Starcraft pro at the moment, practicing SC2 FULL TIME in KOREA with KOREAN PRO GAMERS, also he is, I believe in the top 3 of asian ladders.
I think it is fair to expect more from such a player.
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@chicken
expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person.
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People doesn't seem to appreciate the fact that idra was able to eye ball nony's army in game 1 and knew exactly how many lings he needed to survive, and didn't make more than he needed. How many times must idra went though similar situations like that for him to survive the onslaught with merely 4 extra lings left over?
Impressive indeed man.
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On May 18 2010 05:25 OneFierceZealot wrote:
@chicken
expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person.
While I feel compelled not to even waste my time responding to such a rude reply, I will write a few lines.
I think I made clear in my original post, that I think that Idra was clearly dominating in regards to mechanics, he clearly knows his shit, with just an overall better economy, map control and decision making in terms of macro and timings.
HOWEVER
just seeing him go fast expansion, then trying to survive till hydras pop out, massing hydras and then just rolling over any army the opponent was able to muster up to that point, is not what I consider pro gaming, but that's probably just me as according to you "everyone" in here thinks Idra was kickass. With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game)
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The fact that I am posting right here right now, also proves that I am breathing. It also tells a lot of other things about me, my surroundings, my language, etc. etc. etc. If everyone thought like that we could close these strategy forums, as every event can only be viewed in its special context and timeframe..
Notice something? The things that you prove, are all about yourself. Tell me something about me from your post and that would be making a point.
Several individuals here are talking about imba race, changing the game, based in a match, in which the player who lost told that he made more mistakes than his rival.
Mistakes are not imbalance.
In order to prove imbalance in a game, you need several games, a tendency that pops out and need to be corrected a viable solution.
Here we have 3 matches of a series. Between 2 players on the same day.
Do i love Hydras "i'll just macro your ass" style? Well, kinda yes. But just because it works. I preffer much more the creative explorative gameplay of other players, I find that more entretaining, more related to the development and evolution of the game.
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Expect more what? More creativeness? Pros are pros not from being creative. They are pros because they memorize every possible game situation and the best response and execute those responses with the best mechanics.
Creative people like TLO are very awesome to watch, but they are not Pro gamers. The Pro gamers will just incorporate any creative moves from other players into their repritoire and move on.
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On May 18 2010 05:31 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:25 OneFierceZealot wrote:
@chicken
expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person. While I feel compelled not to even waste my time responding to such a rude reply, I will write a few lines. I think I made clear in my original post, that I think that Idra was clearly dominating in regards to mechanics, he clearly knows his shit, with just an overall better economy, map control and decision making in terms of macro and timings. HOWEVER just seeing him go fast expansion, then trying to survive till hydras pop out, massing hydras and then just rolling over any army the opponent was able to muster up to that point, is not what I consider pro gaming, but that's probably just me as according to you "everyone" in here thinks Idra was kickass. With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game)
What do you consider "pro gaming"? Last I checked SC1 pros do what it takes to win too. Tell me, how many different strats do you see in SC1 progames? Do you see Flash doing a one base rush to ghosts, or doing tank+dropship micro Boxer style? No, he does similar shit almost every game because that's how you win. I'm trying to convince myself that everyone who whines about IdrA being too boring is just trolling...
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On May 18 2010 05:31 ChickenLips wrote:
With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game)
nony had already proven you wrong on TSL2 when he whooped Idra's ass with the same uni and stuffs just 3 months ago. That game on Andromeda with the epic storms is the defining scene of nony's sc1 career!
oh wait almost forgot to mention, nony did that to idra after stop playing the game for like a year?
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On May 18 2010 05:36 gREIFOCs wrote:Show nested quote +The fact that I am posting right here right now, also proves that I am breathing. It also tells a lot of other things about me, my surroundings, my language, etc. etc. etc. If everyone thought like that we could close these strategy forums, as every event can only be viewed in its special context and timeframe.. Notice something? The things that you prove, are all about yourself. Tell me something about me from your post and that would be making a point. Several individuals here are talking about imba race, changing the game, based in a match, in which the player who lost told that he made more mistakes than his rival. Mistakes are not imbalance. In order to prove imbalance in a game, you need several games, a tendency that pops out and need to be corrected a viable solution. Here we have 3 matches of a series. Between 2 players on the same day.
Yeah well, you are not really involved in the act of my posting, however I can deduce things about my PC, this message board, my fingers blablabla, Idra was playing zerg in the beta of SC2, so i can talk about all of these things. thank you.
I was not complaining about imbalance, I was expressing my disappointment to the boring shit Idra pulled off while still in the beta. Yeah big money, still doesn't justify monotonous play.
On May 18 2010 05:36 QuakerOats wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:31 ChickenLips wrote:On May 18 2010 05:25 OneFierceZealot wrote:
@chicken
expect more as in how? i thought that pretty much everyone here agreed that idra kicked ass in this series... but then again there is always faggot ass haters like YoU, but i think its fair to expect more from such a person. While I feel compelled not to even waste my time responding to such a rude reply, I will write a few lines. I think I made clear in my original post, that I think that Idra was clearly dominating in regards to mechanics, he clearly knows his shit, with just an overall better economy, map control and decision making in terms of macro and timings. HOWEVER just seeing him go fast expansion, then trying to survive till hydras pop out, massing hydras and then just rolling over any army the opponent was able to muster up to that point, is not what I consider pro gaming, but that's probably just me as according to you "everyone" in here thinks Idra was kickass. With the amount of practice time he got, of course, there was nothing Nony could do, especially considering that he has uni and stuff. (see his comments after the game) What do you consider "pro gaming"? Last I checked SC1 pros do what it takes to win too. Tell me, how many different strats do you see in SC1 progames? Do you see Flash doing a one base rush to ghosts, or doing tank+dropship micro Boxer style? No, he does similar shit almost every game because that's how you win. I'm trying to convince myself that everyone who whines about IdrA being too boring is just trolling...
This isn't a game that has been played professionally for 10 years! This game literally just came into beta, I want to see the best of the best use their best imagination to come up with new stuff that makes the game more exciting, or did you see people just stick to a single build all the time in the beginning of Sc1? Hell no!
My point is that while I am certainly far far away from any position someone like Idra is in, I think that what is best for this game, for the community, the players, the balance etc. is for people to EXPERIMENT, not just throw down the hydra-hammer (or any other similiar build) no matter what
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I'd imagine IdrA already did loads of experimenting and determined that making hydras is the best build, or at least the one that works for him. Do you think that, the day the game came out, he decided "I'm just gonna make a shitload of roaches" and by luck it happened to get him to the top of the Asia server? Then when they nerfed roaches he said "derrr hey lemme make more hydras now" and again, just by luck, that happened to kick ass too? IdrA plays this game all the time, I'm sure he's tried tons of stuff and crafted the builds he uses now because they gave him the best results. A tourney with cash prizes is not the time to be trying new strategies.
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Just because you found it boring, does not mean other people found it boring. Honestly, 18k+ people toned into see IdrA vs. Nony. It is expected that a few will find it boring simply by statistical anomaly.
Right after the games, I saw many people on the forums praising IdrA's play and calling it epic, masterful, etc. This just goes out to show that you can't please everyone.
Honestly, Zerg is not, all things considered, a very creative race. If you want to blame someone for that, blame Blizzard.
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Necessity, as the old saw goes, is the mother of invention.
Innovation is great if you can't see a way to beat the other guy with the old methods. That's part of the reason why TLO does so well. But innovation, by its very nature, isn't reliable. If you bust out a new, untried, revolutionary build or strat every game, one of them is going to turn out of be an epic fail, probably sooner than later. Especially vs a master-level player like Nony.
Hence why Idra is known for playing as he does: a standard, uninnovative, somewhat boring macro game executed very, very, very well. Because it works and it works reliably. Like friggin' clockwork. Which is what someone in Idra's position (high talent, vast amount of rehersal and practice time, huge financial incentive to win and win repeatedly) wants: a system of play that will allow him to reliably win games.
If you want innovation you are looking at the wrong player. Innovation is going to come either from players more out for fun, or from players who can't win vs the top tier using the reliable, 'conventional', proven builds and so go looking for a solution.
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On May 18 2010 05:50 QuakerOats wrote:
I'd imagine IdrA already did loads of experimenting and determined that making hydras is the best build, or at least the one that works for him. Do you think that, the day the game came out, he decided "I'm just gonna make a shitload of roaches" and by luck it happened to get him to the top of the Asia server? Then when they nerfed roaches he said "derrr hey lemme make more hydras now" and again, just by luck, that happened to kick ass too? IdrA plays this game all the time, I'm sure he's tried tons of stuff and crafted the builds he uses now because they gave him the best results. A tourney with cash prizes is not the time to be trying new strategies.
You're disproving your own point. First you say that the games don't prove anything, now you're saying that Idra went with hydras all the time because it (seemingly) kicks ass all the time.
Which one is it, Idra boring / Zerg boring ?
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On May 18 2010 05:51 Azarkon wrote:
Just because you found it boring, does not mean other people found it boring. Honestly, 18k+ people toned into see IdrA vs. Nony. It is expected that a few will find it boring simply by statistical anomaly.
Right after the games, I saw many people on the forums praising IdrA's play and calling it epic, masterful, etc. This just goes out to show that you can't please everyone.
Honestly, Zerg is not, all things considered, a very creative race. If you want to blame someone for that, blame Blizzard.
On May 18 2010 05:53 SpaceElvis wrote:
Necessity, as the old saw goes, is the mother of invention.
Innovation is great if you can't see a way to beat the other guy with the old methods. That's part of the reason why TLO does so well. But innovation, by its very nature, isn't reliable. If you bust out a new, untried, revolutionary build or strat every game, one of them is going to turn out of be an epic fail, probably sooner than later. Especially vs a master-level player like Nony.
Hence why Idra is known for playing as he does: a standard, uninnovative, somewhat boring macro game executed very, very, very well. Because it works and it works reliably. Like friggin' clockwork. Which is what someone in Idra's position (high talent, vast amount of rehersal and practice time, huge financial incentive to win and win repeatedly) wants: a system of play that will allow him to reliably win games.
If you want innovation you are looking at the wrong player. Innovation is going to come either from players more out for fun, or from players who can't win vs the top tier using the reliable, 'conventional', proven builds and so go looking for a solution.
Wow finally some sensible arguments itt. It was probably my fault to expect the stuff I have seen from TLO & others by someone like Idra, who is apparently notorious for his lack of innovation. If so, i apologize.
Although I don't play Zerg, I would love to see some more - especialy early game - creative units for zerg, but I guess it's too late for that.
All things considered, Zerg is the swarm, so quantity > quality it seems.
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There's obviously a place for both micro-oriented plays that are hugely unpredictable, and more predictable, but mechanically sound macro plays. One might be personally preferable to you, but that has no real bearing on which one is more effective.
Anyways, back to the original topic of NonY vs. IdrA, I really liked seeing a doom drop used in SC2, even though it wasn't quite a "doom" drop. Fast overlords seem underutilized, generally.
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ChickenLips is a fantasy football coach who never played football but talks well.
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If you want to see something creative go play the game and come up with something yourself.
These people are playing to win, are really good at the game, and are very fun to watch if you can keep up. I guess its easier to understand a strategy that hard counters something than why Idra won with hydra/ling.
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I was heavily relying on hydras the first weeks/month of the beta. I honestly think that the ZvP build I was using at that time was one of the best and safest builds available. I didn't have any problems against anyone ZvP. A non roach opening gives the zerg alot of freedom in terms of tech switching and mid game map control.
But that was only until...
They nerfed hydra firing rate. And protosses started using builds that included more than 3 gateways on 1 base. It could still hold 4gate on maps with moderate to long rush distances (with some effort).
Then they nerfed hydra hp. 5gate builds became nearly impossible to hold if you forgoed roaches. You need at least 7 spine crawlers to make it work. On maps like blistering sands and kulas, where there are destructible rocks you need twice the amount of spines. Holding a 4gate with a straight to hydra build is basically a coin flip.
I honestly don't think any expansion strategy with protoss has enough juice in it to punish a zerg that went for a roachless build. And I'm speaking from experience since I had to rethink and relearn my entire ZvP matchup after the hydra nerfs and after the naniwa-style of PvZ (5gate every game) became popular.
Relying on speedlings to carry you through the early game (without massive spine crawler use) is always a gamble.
It's ironic because if you put any skilless (relatively speaking) 5gating euro noob in this series he might've actually won.
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Based on recent tournaments, Naniwa seemed to have a lot of trouble with Dimaga/TLO's +1 speedling FE, but then he was playing under a pseudonym so maybe wasn't doing his usual 5 gate.
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People will always hate on macro-type players, as they have over the past 10 years. Different people are impressed by different stuff, just deal with it (both sides).
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On May 18 2010 02:39 niteReloaded wrote:
are there VODs of these games?
Yes
Game 1:
+ Show Spoiler +
Game 1 and a half:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UO9yvw8K5NI
Enjoy!
I'll post the others when they are available here.
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On May 18 2010 06:00 ChickenLips wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:51 Azarkon wrote:
Just because you found it boring, does not mean other people found it boring. Honestly, 18k+ people toned into see IdrA vs. Nony. It is expected that a few will find it boring simply by statistical anomaly.
Right after the games, I saw many people on the forums praising IdrA's play and calling it epic, masterful, etc. This just goes out to show that you can't please everyone.
Honestly, Zerg is not, all things considered, a very creative race. If you want to blame someone for that, blame Blizzard. Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 05:53 SpaceElvis wrote:
Necessity, as the old saw goes, is the mother of invention.
Innovation is great if you can't see a way to beat the other guy with the old methods. That's part of the reason why TLO does so well. But innovation, by its very nature, isn't reliable. If you bust out a new, untried, revolutionary build or strat every game, one of them is going to turn out of be an epic fail, probably sooner than later. Especially vs a master-level player like Nony.
Hence why Idra is known for playing as he does: a standard, uninnovative, somewhat boring macro game executed very, very, very well. Because it works and it works reliably. Like friggin' clockwork. Which is what someone in Idra's position (high talent, vast amount of rehersal and practice time, huge financial incentive to win and win repeatedly) wants: a system of play that will allow him to reliably win games.
If you want innovation you are looking at the wrong player. Innovation is going to come either from players more out for fun, or from players who can't win vs the top tier using the reliable, 'conventional', proven builds and so go looking for a solution. Wow finally some sensible arguments itt. It was probably my fault to expect the stuff I have seen from TLO & others by someone like Idra, who is apparently notorious for his lack of innovation. If so, i apologize. Although I don't play Zerg, I would love to see some more - especialy early game - creative units for zerg, but I guess it's too late for that. All things considered, Zerg is the swarm, so quantity > quality it seems.
indeed, quantity > quality is the concept of zerg, I read a post a while ago that I thought was quite true, it went something like this:
The three races are all based to have different types of gameplay, and thus focus more strongly on certain points than others.
protoss: micro
its important for the protoss player to use the options available (storm, feedback, forcefield, hallucination etc.), since that is part of the balance, and, the protoss units are more powerful than the ordinary unit, but that also means they are more specialized, it is (normally) much more devestating for a protoss to lose a colossus before a fight, if he only had 3 than for a zerg to lose 2 infestors, where he also had 3.
terran: harass
terran easily have the most harass oriented units, banshees, medivac drops, reapers, vikings, etc. while the rest in the terran arsenal are defensive and/or high damage units, the fact that terran have such easy time to defend a base helps a lot aswell, these facts combined hints toward terran being a race where you sit back in your base and harass, harass, harass until the opponents economy is so damaged you can walk in and stomp all over his base.
zerg: macro
zerg is the swarm for a reason, zerg have the cheapest main building, which allows for easy expanding, as well as very short build times on their armyunits, making it very tempting as a zerg to spam drones until you see the opponent moving out and then try to get just enough emergency army to hold his push off, the concept of larvae also allow for extremely fast techswitches.
now, about your remark of more... creative, I guess, zerg play early game, theres really not much a zerg can do, early game the zerg have the following options:
1. expand
standard macro game, as is zerg specialty, impossible to be creative here
2. T1 rush
oooh, a cheese allin, how original... not
1. rush tech
to what? hive is a joke, no point in going for that so early, lair have the nydus worm, not very creative, its been used a lot, muta? thats just muta harass, nothing new, hydra? thats pretty standard, you cant call that creative, infestor? well, I have been thinking about this fun strategy where I put a couple infestors in an overlord and pop out like 16 infested terrans in his mineral lines, that would be interesting, I guess, but with proper micro the enemy wont lose much more than a bit of mining time.
aside from the infestor thing, ive only come up with one other thing which would be quite interesting, a baneling drop into his minerals, no big investment from your part, just get ovy speed and drop tech in different hatcheries so they will be finished about the same time (this will be wuite gas-intensive, make sure youve got enough), get a baneling nest, make 4 banelings, drop in his main and run them into his workerline, the ovy drop ability can easily be re-used later in the game for more harass, so it wont be like you got ovy drop tech just for those banelings, one game i managed to get 17 probes with those 4 banelings, is that cost effective or what? (btw, he had like 31 probes in his main and had 12 left when i finished)
btw, I play in silver league, 1200-ish, so my opponents isnt really all that great, most likely because of that this harass works so well.
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Lol zerg is so terrible right now.
Basically speedling FE into fast hydra, mass hydras, attack.
Collect win vs Toss, loss vs Terran (loltanks)
Mutas get raped by literally everything. Roaches are just not efficient tanks at 2 supply. Banelings are not a very good investment since they're one time only. Infestors are ok I guess if the game drags on and you want to throw extra spice into your hydras. Corruptors are AtoA only..
ZvZ is speedling/baneling fest which is ridiculous since speedlings are so quirky to micro and so much can come down to luck with what the baneling explosions actually decide to connect with.
Zerg have no options, unless you're trying to do "cute stuff".
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Loller you kinda completely ignored the pwnige that is Broodlords. And I find mutas in large numbers are really quite strong, that ricochet attack really starts to own.
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On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push).
On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol.
On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build.
I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units.
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On May 18 2010 04:59 ChickenLips wrote:
so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what?
impressive
PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta.
You opened mostly a few lings into a bunch of hydras in ZvP in BW a lot of the time too. I don't know what you're complaining about. Also he didn't go 100% hydra. Hydra was his main army but he had an overseer attached to the to kill scouting, he used OLs to drop, he used slings in all games, and mutas in the last. What more do people want?
Also it's not really pure "innovation" as you're pointing out, but there's been a lot of whining about how drops "aren't viable" as Z, but Idra has the proper mechanics to pull off things like a well timed sling harass --> hydra drop --> hydra pickup without losing his whole army whereas other players (usually the ones whining) claim this isn't possible.
His play was very polished with his timings and gamesense and that's what won it for him. With some refinement though I suspect Nony would have taken the second game.
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amdtwO:
Good post.
The game on Kulas ended prematurely as nony didnt wall off properly, so we nevergot to see them duke i tout.
The game on scrap yard was just a poor strategychoice from nony, yes his phoenixes kept popping drones but Idra (Hidra) simply built more than Nony could kill off, while at the same time massing his army and hunting the phoenixes down. Worker harass really isnt that effective against Z, esp. not a Z like Idra; and when Idra attacke ofcourse Nony had nothing to defend.
The Metalopolis game; in retrospect nony should not have split his army, but kept beeing defensive and macroed up on 2 bases. As P that is plenty.
And ofcourse through all the game Idra played flawlessly; he definately was creative in ways I guess only Z-players can appreciate since the rest of you simply dosent seem to understand the inherent limitations of the current Z. I was totally impressed bby Idras play, and even though I dont like BM in general, I can not underappreciate a player because of it. Idra vs Whitera will be epic.
(and its been along time since I heard any BM from Idra anyway)
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WoW game 3. Epic play by IdrA.
Awesome splitting of nonys forces. Perfect timings.
Much respect
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On May 17 2010 06:40 Sanitarium14 wrote:
NonY, Don't worry, We still Love you =D
Only because you are better looking than Idra ^____^ Oh what a superficial world we live in.
I don't think it was a doom drop. Idra's play was pretty good. It was like immortal drop, marauder drop, attack and pick up and continous harass until it ended the game. Something I have not seen in Idra's game O___O Is this start of the new Idra? no more 100% macroing+big battles O:
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The metagame is evolving. Zerg has now figured out some good timing with the 15 hatch and speedling for defense against the early gate rush.
Perhaps if toss scouts this now, rather than pushing with the early gate rush the Zerg is readying up for, you just ignore it and expand yourself and start on figuring out new strats.
I'd say putting down a photon or two and pumping zealots while saturating your expo will put you in good shape against the speedlings while you tech quickly into colossi. Anti air defense is your call. Stalker vs Phoenix? Phoenix would probably be better overall vs zerg but only if you're careful and put them to use.
I agree with Nony that we shouldn't judge the entire PvZ balance based on this series. Idra just played very solid.
Nony did make a few errors but still had solid high level play. But in this case, Idra obviously put in the hard work and training and the results speak for themselves.
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On May 17 2010 06:15 Liquid`NonY wrote:
I made a lot of mistakes in the first two games. I definitely wasn't executing as well as possible so I didn't do my ideas justice. As far as getting cross positions ZvP on Metalopolis... well, that's very difficult to play "normally". Anyway, I would advise not jumping to conclusions based on my series against IdrA because, in my opinion, it was pretty clearly just the case that IdrA wasn't making huge mistakes and I was.
i felt that you almost had the second game, NonY
if that harrass would have been a little bit better, the zerg would have crushed under the pressure
- i mean going for the drones in the 1st place -
i really like the phoenix strategy in PvZ and your control over them.
keep the good games comming,
i am starting a NonY-fan-club here in Romania if you do
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On May 18 2010 12:15 DefMatrixUltra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push). Show nested quote +On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol. Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build. I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units.
Haters always gon hate. If you don't like Idra for BM, fine. But to diss his superb play? Now that's just nonsense.
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Oh man, you haters should list all the innovative and exciting tactics zerg can use. I'd love to see this.
Idra plays standard amazingly well, and that's how he wins games. I'd rather watch a standard game with amazing play than some "pro" reaper rush that wins the game in 5 minutes.
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On May 18 2010 04:59 ChickenLips wrote:
so basically after roaches got nerfed, idra now goes 100% hydra everytime no matter what instead of roaches 100% no matter what?
impressive
PS.: with regards to mechanics, i have to admit, he was way better than Nony, but regarding innovation, ... wow zergling harass, who wouldve thought to use a T1 unit to attack the mineral lines early in the game, wow he used drop after he had the series basically won. It's just not what I want to see in the beta.
this is literally the worst post i have ever read on this forum
i feel i should elaborate but it doesn't even deserve it
jesus
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I just watched the series on YouTube, I agree with NonY's conclusion; he just got outplayed. NonY made two-three crippling mistakes in game one and two, and game three IdrA's play was just on a whole other level.
It didn't help that all three maps they played were macro-maps perfetly suited to IdrA's playstyle.
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On May 18 2010 05:44 ChickenLips wrote:
This isn't a game that has been played professionally for 10 years! This game literally just came into beta, I want to see the best of the best use their best imagination to come up with new stuff that makes the game more exciting, or did you see people just stick to a single build all the time in the beginning of Sc1? Hell no!
My point is that while I am certainly far far away from any position someone like Idra is in, I think that what is best for this game, for the community, the players, the balance etc. is for people to EXPERIMENT, not just throw down the hydra-hammer (or any other similiar build) no matter what
How do you know he is not experimenting? Of course every good player experiments with their builds all the time but not in a tournament. Only idiots would do something like that and yes the people who suggest somebody do that are idiotic. This is true for all pro sports not just pro gaming. You always keep things simple and efficient so they do not break down under pressure.
You contradict yourself by saying the game is still young so you want to see a lot of variations. It is precisely because the game is young that not many standard builds have been discovered and that is why Idra used the one build that he thinks is the best at the moment. It takes years for players in BW to figure out standard builds (meaning even if they know it coming they can't flat out beat you unless they cheese) and you expecting Idra to have many efficient builds up his sleeves? You have to excuse people for not being as good as you are and do not have 5 killing builds in their pockets. Not to mention the fact that the race of Zerg really not allows many mix of units at the moment but this is an issue that needs to be discussed in other threads.
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I don't know about you guys but I wouldn't experiment in a Tourney with that kind of prize pool. It's not like Blizzard is paying the pro's to play.
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On May 18 2010 22:52 Entropic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 12:15 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push). On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol. On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build. I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units. Haters always gon hate. If you don't like Idra for BM, fine. But to diss his superb play? Now that's just nonsense.
Just to clarify. I wasn't blaming Idra for making 2 units, I'm glad he won. I was blaming Blizzard for balancing Zerg like such shit that we have literally 1 consistently usable viable unit atm. Which is the hydralisk.
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On May 19 2010 02:33 Lollersauce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2010 22:52 Entropic wrote:On May 18 2010 12:15 DefMatrixUltra wrote:On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push). On May 17 2010 19:03 Lollersauce wrote:On May 17 2010 16:46 lopper wrote:
Long story short: Sexy and more importantly clever play by IdrA. Who needs Roaches when you can be cute and precise in your attacks and overall moves?! Yeah who needs a variety of viable combat units when a pro player can win with 2? That sure makes the game more interesting! lololol. On May 18 2010 02:07 TLOBrian wrote:
take expansion.
Build a bunch of shit.
A-move.
^ Idra's build. I like how everything seems so simple to you guys. You should go into ladder as Zerg and just get 2700 Platinum ez. All you need to do is FE and build 2 units. Haters always gon hate. If you don't like Idra for BM, fine. But to diss his superb play? Now that's just nonsense. Just to clarify. I wasn't blaming Idra for making 2 units, I'm glad he won. I was blaming Blizzard for balancing Zerg like such shit that we have literally 1 consistently usable viable unit atm. Which is the hydralisk.
Yes, because speedlings, hydralisks, mutalisks, and clever use of drops are all grouped into "the hydralisk". Try reading this entire thread, as we've already refuted the argument that Idra *only* used one unit the entire set. And after that, maybe you could ACTUALLY watch the games that Idra played against Nony? When Nony makes phoenixes, do you expect Idra to make ultralisks? Or perhaps Idra should go corruptors against Nony's zealots? Duh?
And ChickenLips, this Idra vs. Nony set just showed that Idra can be very creative and won't always go for a dry "one unit for the whole game" build. That means that Zerg can be pretty versatile.
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Lol, mutalisks? How many mutalisks did you see?
Yes, Idra used speedlings as a diversion. I'm talking units that actually fight and don't straight up melt past tier1.
I'm not sure how overlord transport counts as a combat unit but hey, whatever floats your boat.
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On May 19 2010 02:53 Lollersauce wrote:
Lol, mutalisks? How many mutalisks did you see?
Yes, Idra used speedlings as a diversion. I'm talking units that actually fight and don't straight up melt past tier1.
I'm not sure how overlord transport counts as a combat unit but hey, whatever floats your boat.
1. Mutalisks were key to countering the collossi in the base elimination race in game 3. Hydralisks are not so good against them :-)
2. Speedlings WON the first game for Idra (run by into the main). How is that a mere diversion?
3. The doom drops in the main + the constant denial of expansions (by using speedlings, I might add) won game 3 as well.
QED.
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On May 19 2010 02:53 Lollersauce wrote:
Lol, mutalisks? How many mutalisks did you see?
I saw about 12 mutalisks, they singlehandedly killed 6 collossi, wtf games were you watching?!
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I'm not a fan of IdrA's manners, but damn the man can play some sick Starcraft (and SC2 as well it seems).
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I would have loved to see an immortal timing push at the pro level.
It seemed every game the protoss was the attacker and just bashed himself into the zerg base, but wasnt really prepared to fight. A lot of games i lose as zerg the toss doesnt give two shits about my FE because 5 minutes later he steam rolls over everything with a great mix of chargelots, stalkers, sentries and 2 immortals. I havent found a counter to it and i dont think FE/hydra gets up and running fast enough.
Game 1, the protoss attacked too early to take down the exapnsion, which he should probably have ignored. Pplus, he tried a run-by, but forcefield pinned/split his own army? wtf was that?
Game 2, the phoenix harass was cute, but utterly useless at doing anything. Again, he used forcefield so pathetically that i almost wonder if hes every played protoss before. To not split the army on the ramp was just delaying his inevitable defeat by 30 seconds. Awful.
Game 3 was more interesting and one i think the protoss had a chance at winning, but he left his collusus wide open on the final push to be beaten by the mutas. He only had 2 left by the time he got to the base! What an ugly ugly silver league looking kind of play to have half your army so far ahead of your collosus. I almost feel like the toss panics and cant think straight at the face of battles. If he kept his army in tact, it could have been a base race, but instead it ended up being the zerg won both battle fronts, which never happens in this game. How can you attack and defend and win both? Domination.
The protoss played so badly is what it came down to. Which is sad that it takes that much awful play for a zerg to beat protoss, who usually crush those matchups.
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god so many idiots in this thread
so so many
like the post above me
nony did not play "so badly"
jesus christ u have no idea what ur talking about
sorry if I am being mean.. but people shouldn't post like they are authoratative when they totally aren't.
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On May 19 2010 03:08 DC Elite wrote:
I would have loved to see an immortal timing push at the pro level.
It seemed every game the protoss was the attacker and just bashed himself into the zerg base, but wasnt really prepared to fight. A lot of games i lose as zerg the toss doesnt give two shits about my FE because 5 minutes later he steam rolls over everything with a great mix of chargelots, stalkers, sentries and 2 immortals. I havent found a counter to it and i dont think FE/hydra gets up and running fast enough.
Game 1, the protoss attacked too early to take down the exapnsion, which he should probably have ignored. Pplus, he tried a run-by, but forcefield pinned/split his own army? wtf was that?
Game 2, the phoenix harass was cute, but utterly useless at doing anything. Again, he used forcefield so pathetically that i almost wonder if hes every played protoss before. To not split the army on the ramp was just delaying his inevitable defeat by 30 seconds. Awful.
Game 3 was more interesting and one i think the protoss had a chance at winning, but he left his collusus wide open on the final push to be beaten by the mutas. He only had 2 left by the time he got to the base! What an ugly ugly silver league looking kind of play to have half your army so far ahead of your collosus. I almost feel like the toss panics and cant think straight at the face of battles. If he kept his army in tact, it could have been a base race, but instead it ended up being the zerg won both battle fronts, which never happens in this game. How can you attack and defend and win both? Domination.
The protoss played so badly is what it came down to. Which is sad that it takes that much awful play for a zerg to beat protoss, who usually crush those matchups.
Your first post on this forum is used to call Nony a silver league player? Really? Come on now. Do you think you could do better against Idra? Do you think you could do anything against Nony even? Nony didn't play perfectly, but your tone is a bit too harsh. The second and third games were pretty entertaining, IMO.
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they are out on youtube on hdstarcraft or huskystarcraft, remember seeing them there earlier today.
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On May 19 2010 03:08 DC Elite wrote:
I would have loved to see an immortal timing push at the pro level.
Immortal push vs.... zerglings and hydras? I want whatever you are smoking.
That first line alone invalidated the rest of your post.
Great games. Game 1 would've gone on a lot longer if Nony had kept his base plugged. Game 2 I think it would have had a bit different outcome if those nixes were used to kill drones in the flybys instead of overlords, they are extremely strong with moving shot and grav beam to 2 shot drones. He could've atleast dampened Idra's eco enough to not be able to make 25+ hydras in the following 1-2 mins of time and gotten an expo down.
Game 3 was awesome play, also a zerg favored map-- the doomdrop was great and lings halted expos very efficiently. The random changeling was funny though.
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I dont who that guy is, but the protoss player obviously had some issues under pressure. Someone pointed out that the decision to attack the hive in game 2 and forcefield off the hydras down the ramp was a mistake, but it may not have been had the units actually attacked the hive... instead the hive lived with very little life left, but the hydra den also had very little life. Even the announcers were confused at what the heck was going on, they said something about the zealots acting crazy, well thats the fault of the owner of those zealots. Every decision type situation the zerg player forced the toss to make, the toss chose poorly.
In game 1, the toss panicked so much he pinned himself aganst a wall and split his own army with his own forcefields. IN game 3 he split panicked and left his colossus wide open.
Maybe the zerg is just that good at making people have to think too fast and click too much that the toss couldnt keep up.
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On May 19 2010 03:28 baconbits wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 03:08 DC Elite wrote:
I would have loved to see an immortal timing push at the pro level.
Immortal push vs.... zerglings and hydras? I want whatever you are smoking.
The TWO immortal, zealot, stalker, sentry push is so early mid game that the FE hydras arnt at quite at capacity yet and are unprepared. Its a common plat push that crushes zerg. Collosus come out too late, the hydras are already full steam by then.
Its a way better idea than sacraficing your early zealots and sentry's to try and stop the FE and fail/forcefield pin yourself against a wall.
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On May 19 2010 03:34 DC Elite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 03:28 baconbits wrote:On May 19 2010 03:08 DC Elite wrote:
I would have loved to see an immortal timing push at the pro level.
Immortal push vs.... zerglings and hydras? I want whatever you are smoking. The TWO immortal, zealot, stalker, sentry push is so early mid game that the FE hydras arnt at quite at capacity yet and are unprepared. Its a common plat push that crushes zerg. Collosus come out too late, the hydras are already full steam by then. Its a way better idea than sacraficing your early zealots and sentry's to try and stop the FE and fail/forcefield pin yourself against a wall.
Immortal hardened shields have almost no benefit versus hydra, and absolutely none versus zerglings. a 4 gate or 5 gate is more effective as the resources for immortals are better put in more sentry/stalker/zealot or atleast upgrading to get colossi out which absolutely MURDER hydra forcing some anti air from zerg.
A simple +1 ground attack upgrade would be more useful then any immortals.
And they get absolutely NO benefit at all from +30 armored damage bonus. Hell, maybe if there was a big mess of sunkens, but 1 sunken doesn't really constitute a need for immortals.
btw "a plat push?" lol you serious? the 4 gate robo or 3 gate robo immortal build has been around forever and anyone who's played protoss at all and knows what build orders are have learned it by now. Immortals however, are a huge waste of gas vs a ling + hydra combination.
Hell, its not even a "push" its usually an all-in strategy. A push is like old school terran leapfrogging tanks to push out. its an all-in timing attack meant to hit before t2 zerg get in full production mode.
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I don't think a timing push would've done anything vs. IdrA. He had really good control of what units he needed to make, and when he needed to make them. I liked the FF play against the wall on Kulas Ravine, the loss of the units wasn't that bad for how many units NonY took out himself, imo.
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On May 19 2010 03:29 DC Elite wrote:
I dont who that guy is, but the protoss player obviously had some issues under pressure.
You don't know who NonY is and are bashing him?
Go learn about NonY before commenting please. You reinforce the low count poster stereotype.
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Why do you need to know who the guy is to see that a forcefield hive attack that leaves the hive alive, zealots just A attacking anything, and yet the hydra den is half dead if a really bad play? Thats all i basically said, he played badly. And he did.
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On May 19 2010 03:44 Spidermonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 03:29 DC Elite wrote:
I dont who that guy is, but the protoss player obviously had some issues under pressure.
You don't know who NonY is and are bashing him? Go learn about NonY before commenting please. You reinforce the low count poster stereotype.
Ad hominem fallacy. Doesn't refute anything he said. Just because he has played before under pressure and performed well doesn't mean he always will.
My opinion is that he probably just had an off day. I don't think he'd usually make those mistakes :shrug:
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[QUOTE]On May 19 2010 03:12 travis wrote:
god so many idiots in this thread
so so many
like the post above me
nony did not play "so badly"
jesus christ u have no idea what ur talking about[QUOTE]
NonY made a lot of critical mistakes, as he said himself. I think that's what they're referring to.
At the end of the day though, Idra played better, even if they are both excellent players.
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Anyone who doesn't know NonY need to watch some VODs on NonY's stream. The dude is amazing. He makes #1-ranked plat leaguers look like noobs. By the time you're done watching, you're convinced SC2 is an easy game.
NonY just had a bad day. To be honest, I'm not sure he beats IdrA best of 5 on his best day. We are seeing from tournament results in Asia vs. Europe that Asia is quite strong. IdrA is one of the best players in Asia right now... you do the math.
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I don't know why people are still arguing over this. NonY already provided the reasons for why he lost. He made mistakes. IdrA didn't. As Zelniq (a top US Zerg) said in the other thread: IdrA's play was "perfect." Anything less than "perfect" from NonY would not have sufficed.
After the TSL 2 and the HDH, people should realize by now that NonY and IdrA are both highly skilled players and that any match between them can go either way. During the TSL 2, IdrA made more mistakes (including the famous command center cancel). During the HDH, NonY did. It's that simple.
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On May 19 2010 04:34 Azarkon wrote:
I don't know why people are still arguing over this. NonY already provided the reasons for why he lost. He made mistakes. IdrA didn't. As Zelniq (a top US Zerg) said in the other thread: IdrA's play was "perfect." Anything less than "perfect" from NonY would not have sufficed.
After the TSL 2 and the HDH, people should realize by now that NonY and IdrA are both highly skilled players and that any match between them can go either way. During the TSL 2, IdrA made more mistakes (including the famous command center cancel). During the HDH, NonY did. It's that simple.
Be careful about comparing their skill in SC2 to that in BW.
Nony has been talking about how he has a hard time finding time to practice SC2 while Idra probably is in the best possible position to practice. The same could be said about BW to a certain degree but Nony had a ton of practice with BW that he hasn't had with SC2.
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Yes, that probably factors into it, but I want to point out that IdrA was practicing at least as hard in SCBW as he is in SC 2, and yet still made critical mistakes in his TSL 2 play. So it's not just a matter of practice time. Sometimes you just make mistakes.
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This discussion has already been beaten to death, and even Nony himself admits he made some careless mistakes. I don't think there really is a mechanical or racial 'imbalance' one way or the other in this match up, Zerg when played the way Idra played has far superior macro the Protoss and even the more powerful Protoss units alone is not enough to make up for this. Also as Nony said he made not the best micro-choices in that series and a result didn't win.
The armies Nony was making if microed the way we're used to seeing him micro would have fared quite well against Idra. As its already been discussed many times Idra played Zerg 'perfectly' or at least perfectly for what is considered the best Zerg play for SC2, Nony wasn't at his full strength for whatever reason and thats that.
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again sorry for my english , but that my tird langage ^^ , french , korean , english
idra played pretty good and i cant judge nony from these game , but nony standar game style and gameplay are usualy better and we can say that was not the best he can do . you can pratice 100 game , only some percent of these game you will think that you played realy great , other time, standar and some game worst . but that the same for everyone , we never play at the best skill level
everygame unless you are flash .
on the other hand idra played realy good and each game was looking like he was the one playing and turning the game how he wanted the game to go , nony missed many time to turn the game from him but missed and at the end he loss them all.
but if nony would have not missed the time to turn the game in is favor we would have see realy something else .
starcraft are also a big mind game , read book and the art of the war or other great writing and you can literaly translate them in starcraft .
you can become good in starcraft by reading book , yes
edit : added http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html
the art of war by sun tzu for people who never read it .
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NonY deserves to win. Awesome play styles... wonderful micro etc
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Considering how close game 2 was the whole "imbalanced" thing doesn't really have a leg to stand on. Nony could've won that game with just slightly better decision making/ micro and he knows it.
I wish the go to answer for every result of every game wasn't "omg x = imba"
Sometimes people who are very poor sports are also very good at something, deal with it.
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On May 19 2010 03:12 travis wrote:
god so many idiots in this thread
so so many
like the post above me
nony did not play "so badly"
jesus christ u have no idea what ur talking about
sorry if I am being mean.. but people shouldn't post like they are authoratative when they totally aren't.
didnt Nony already say in this thread that he played badly???????????????
I thought IdrA played perfect! game three was really intriguing, mass hydra drop while he was concerned with lings owning his new expo
is it me or are cannons just not as strong as they were in SC1 (off topic BTW)
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ok to the 5000 people who said it:
Nony said he made mistakes. He said he didn't play perfect. Not that he played badly. Anyone is liable to make mistakes when the opponent is bringing a level of game you aren't used to. Learn reading comprehension. Making mistakes is not the same as playing badly.
Nony did not play that badly, and he would have absolutely annihilated any of you by playing as good as he did.
But I never would have even posted anything had people not only said that Nony played badly, but then posted little lists of bullshit like they would have done it better in the game had they been playing. It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about.
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agree , if nony said that he made mistakes and was not playing perfectly that probably 50 % of the reason why nony loss the other 50 % was idra .
like many people say idra played realy high skill lvl and damn good , so he deserve the win .
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As a huge Nony fan, that series was very painful to watch ... it looked like the kinda games where you're operating on like 2 hrs of sleep. Leaving your choke open in game 1, poor micro in game 2 (he really should've won the first push, if he had done anything with those phoenixes...), and falling for the classic zergling harass on the far expo in game 3... right when the zerglings caused Nony to overcommit his forces, I immediately knew what was going to happen, I was thinking in my head "noooo just send a colossus and abuse the cliffs".
I also wonder if templars would've been a better tech choice in Metalopolis than Colossus, since it's such a big map which encourages air units (thus making colossus more vulnerable). You'd also get access to charge, blink and storms, all good against hydras and air units.
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DC Elite vs Nony Bo5 anyone? ^^
I'd love to see that.
Bashing on Nony like that, tsk tsk tsk...
Nony played well, I just think Idra has gotten much better.
He didn't play like robot those games and wasn't brought down by harrassment(sp?).
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On May 19 2010 05:49 travis wrote:
he would have absolutely annihilated any of you by playing as good as he did.
But I never would have even posted anything had people not only said that Nony played badly, but then posted little lists of bullshit like they would have done it better in the game had they been playing. It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about.
These are such weak arguments in any such conversation that i feel like i have to call it out. Just because we all dont play professional football it doesnt mean we cant sit around the water cooler and debate whether or not Brett Favre sucked and played poorly in any particular game where he threw 4 picks.
How about you stop blind defending the protoss player for no reason like you are being personally attacked. We're all just talking here about an individuals performance. We can all have crappy days and if you put yourself in a tournament you have to expect some criticism. Look at me, im talking to you like you played, which you didnt, so give it a rest.
Lets shut down the forum, guys, we all arent as good as the protoss player, so there no use talking about starcraft 2 anymore ever. *eyeroll*
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On May 19 2010 05:58 DC Elite wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 05:49 travis wrote:
he would have absolutely annihilated any of you by playing as good as he did.
But I never would have even posted anything had people not only said that Nony played badly, but then posted little lists of bullshit like they would have done it better in the game had they been playing. It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about. These are such weak arguments in any such conversation that i feel like i have to call it out. Just because we all dont play professional football it doesnt mean we cant sit around the water cooler and debate whether or not Brett Favre sucked and played poorly in any particular game where he threw 4 picks.
I would call you an idiot at the water cooler too if you acted like you could quarterback better than Brett Favre in any particular game. And people do that shit actually. And I do make fun of them. "oh, like you could possibly do it better. because it's so easy to throw a 60 yard pass with a bunch of linemen(idra) charging at you."
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Sorry to butt in here, but DC Elite there's a difference between an avid Cavs fan lamenting about Lebron, and someone who doesn't even know the basic fundamentals of basketball commenting on his play ... you criticizing his forcefield usage in game 1 as pinning himself, advocating immortals, and calling him silver-leaguer shows you really don't know what you're talking about, sorry don't mean to sound so harsh...
It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about.
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Nony: well known player to the community you're posting in.
"DC Elite": post count 8 and post 1 was in this thread dissing aforementioned respected player and is wondering why people defend him.
Good start entering this forum!
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Well, i only got the beta key yesterday but i am 4-1 in a high division in the well respected copper league, so i think that speaks for itself.
I also played junior high football as place kicker, so if i think favre sucks im probably right.
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On May 19 2010 06:09 DC Elite wrote:
Well, i only got the beta key yesterday but i am 4-1 in a high division in the well respected copper league, so i think that speaks for itself.
I also played junior high football as place kicker, so if i think favre sucks im probably right.
I scored a goal in soccer in the 3rd grade, now I follow Kaka around calling him a scrub.
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Hahaha oh man... Please don't feed the troll even more!
I think Idra played very well + Show Spoiler +and I honestly still don't understand how could he possibly win game 2, almost heroic for him, that defense.
If 1 unit is so useful and massable it's not the player who is to blame, but the game's balance. Maybe the other units don't have good synergy, or maybe they just aren't good enough.
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On May 19 2010 06:09 DC Elite wrote:
Well, i only got the beta key yesterday but i am 4-1 in a high division in the well respected copper league, so i think that speaks for itself.
I also played junior high football as place kicker, so if i think favre sucks im probably right.
I like this new trend of moderating on TL. Instead of simply IP banning the idiots we strip them of all defenses and publicly humiliate them. Please continue to do this. There has been an influx of trolls and ignorant kiddies ruining the community of TL.
On topic, I agree with Travis. Nony is a hero to many and a baller in SC and SC2. He made mistakes against Idra and it cost him the series. His play against Idra was nowhere near a Silver league player.
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On May 19 2010 03:08 DC Elite wrote:
I would have loved to see an immortal timing push at the pro level.
LMFAO. Best troll ever. He literally got 2 pages of serious responses to his trolling before anyone mentioned that he might be a troll.
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Did Idra 3 evo game 3? Was he getting +1 melee?
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On May 19 2010 06:09 DC Elite wrote:
Well, i only got the beta key yesterday but i am 4-1 in a high division in the well respected copper league, so i think that speaks for itself.
I also played junior high football as place kicker, so if i think favre sucks im probably right.
Fuck, COPPER LEAGUE!?!?!?!!? I'm still in the placement matches
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Honestly I kind of hate that you can spam hydras and zerglings and win. What is this, baby's first RTS?
Jesus, this game really is simplistic sometimes. Everyone in the plat leagues are doing this exact strat now and winning.
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On May 19 2010 07:54 iEchoic wrote:
Honestly I kind of hate that you can spam hydras and zerglings and win. What is this, baby's first RTS?
Jesus, this game really is simplistic sometimes. Everyone in the plat leagues are doing this exact strat now and winning.
Let's be more realistic, what other options did Idra have? Hydra is the first unit (except queen) to actually hit air... mutalisks cost much more, while dps of hydra is better than muta..
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On May 19 2010 07:54 iEchoic wrote:
Honestly I kind of hate that you can spam hydras and zerglings and win. What is this, baby's first RTS?
Jesus, this game really is simplistic sometimes. Everyone in the plat leagues are doing this exact strat now and winning.
Then do something better and win. Or are you claiming it is unbeatable?
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On May 19 2010 08:20 Koffiegast wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 07:54 iEchoic wrote:
Honestly I kind of hate that you can spam hydras and zerglings and win. What is this, baby's first RTS?
Jesus, this game really is simplistic sometimes. Everyone in the plat leagues are doing this exact strat now and winning. Let's be more realistic, what other options did Idra have? Hydra is the first unit (except queen) to actually hit air... mutalisks cost much more, while dps of hydra is better than muta..
I'm not attacking Idra, you should always do what is best for you to win the game. I think it shows that the state of Zerg is not where it should be, though.
On May 19 2010 08:24 nihlon wrote:
Then do something better and win. Or are you claiming it is unbeatable?
Definitely not unbeatable, but I think it is sort of disappointing to see plat leagues, let alone pro players spam one unit and win. It most definitely takes far more skill to counter than to execute.
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On May 19 2010 08:30 iEchoic wrote:
Definitely not unbeatable, but I think it is sort of disappointing to see plat leagues, let alone pro players spam one unit and win. It most definitely takes far more skill to counter than to execute.
lings and hydra, mutas in game 3. Insanely good scouting and perfect execution of everything he did. Drops, harassment, flanking, etc. I don't get how people relate this to "just spamming one unit and winning" It's not like he was A-moving those hydras as he brought Ovies forward to spew creep and dancing them to dodge force field entrapments.
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On May 19 2010 08:33 baconbits wrote:
lings and hydra, mutas in game 3. Insanely good scouting and perfect execution of everything he did. Drops, harassment, flanking, etc. I don't get how people relate this to "just spamming one unit and winning" It's not like he was A-moving those hydras as he brought Ovies forward to spew creep and dancing them to dodge force field entrapments.
Lings don't really count, every zerg player basically has to make lings, it's a given. Once he got hydras, the lings stopped being produced. But yeah, hydras and mutas, I guess. Not really all that impressive as NonY had to make about 5 different units.
Idra definitely executed flawlessly. Once again, I'm not downing on Idra or NonY, just commenting that one unit being so insanely dominant and well-rounded as the Hydra is a bit disappointing. I've played 5 zergs today and every one just massed Hydras.
This game's counter system is definitely confusing to a new SC player such as myself (I played AoE competitively). Some units seem to not really have effective counters (such as hydras) and instead you just have to mass more stuff. And then some units don't get countered by what their counters should be (i.e. vikings blow against mutas).
Game just makes little sense to me tbh, and sometimes it just seems like whoever masses more stuff wins, regardless what the opponent makes. I've never played an RTS before where a player can just mass shit and not care if you try to counter them... And still win.
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On May 19 2010 08:37 iEchoic wrote:
Not really all that impressive as NonY had to make about 5 different units.
And zerg only has, what, 9 different combat units? I agree, the lack of diversity is disappointing. It will be a long wait till the first expansion...
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On May 19 2010 08:37 iEchoic wrote:
Lings don't really count, every zerg player basically has to make lings, it's a given.
I put this in quotes, bolded, because it also explains your later complaint.
Idra definitely executed flawlessly. Once again, I'm not downing on Idra or NonY, just commenting that one unit being so insanely dominant and well-rounded as the Hydra is a bit disappointing. I've played 5 zergs today and every one just massed Hydras.
This game's counter system is definitely confusing to a new SC player such as myself (I played AoE competitively). Some units seem to not really have effective counters (such as hydras) and instead you just have to mass more stuff. And then some units don't get countered by what their counters should be (i.e. vikings blow against mutas).
Game just makes little sense to me tbh, and sometimes it just seems like whoever masses more stuff wins, regardless what the opponent makes. I've never played an RTS before where a player can just mass shit and not care if you try to counter them... And still win.
Quite frankly, massing Hydras is almost at that "every zerg player basicly has to make" status. They are the only quick response to air, and the only mid/early zerg unit with decent range. They are also one of the only zerg units that can stand up and fight as a main army unit.
I think I speak for most zerg players when I say I wish I COULD get away with using other units instead of Hydra, but in all honesty, our alternative choices are either poor or simply don't exist.
And there certainly are effective counters to Hydra, such as Colossus or HT's. You just can't get them out of a 4-gate push.
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On May 19 2010 05:49 travis wrote:
ok to the 5000 people who said it:
Nony said he made mistakes. He said he didn't play perfect. Not that he played badly. Anyone is liable to make mistakes when the opponent is bringing a level of game you aren't used to. Learn reading comprehension. Making mistakes is not the same as playing badly.
Nony did not play that badly, and he would have absolutely annihilated any of you by playing as good as he did.
But I never would have even posted anything had people not only said that Nony played badly, but then posted little lists of bullshit like they would have done it better in the game had they been playing. It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about.
Nony's ability to annihilate the average player even while playing bad has nothing to with whether or not he played badly that series. Judging from the mistakes that were made, I would say he played badly, that's my opinion, you're acting as if every one is an idiot because you disagree.
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I have just saw the game, jaw dropping. Nony with the upper hand in the micro area, but the macro area being too good (idra being godlike here), with not only having a big economy, but controlling the map flawlessly. He massed when the time was right, mixed units when it was right (that group of mutas defending the main base when that hydra drop ocurred, it was awesome) and knew nony' s steps, all the way. Completely deserved win, an awesome way to show the world that zerg, is not that weak as people say it is (just _maybe_ underdeveloped).
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On May 19 2010 09:30 Antoniuss wrote:
I have just saw the game, jaw dropping. Nony with the upper hand in the micro area, but the macro area being too good (idra being godlike here), with not only having a big economy, but controlling the map flawlessly. He massed when the time was right, mixed units when it was right (that group of mutas defending the main base when that hydra drop ocurred, it was awesome) and knew nony' s steps, all the way. Completely deserved win, an awesome way to show the world that zerg, is not that weak as people say it is (just _maybe_ underdeveloped).
people say zerg are weak? o.o
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Idra's performance in games 2 and 3 gave me nerdchills. too bad NonY better luck next time
the final is going to so epic.
I wonder how TLO would have done against NonY, his zerg playstyle was very creative and ->IMO<- more entertaining to watch. and it beat whitera twice.
fingers crossed that he randoms zerg a couple times in the match for 3rd place =D. on that thought, which is going to be first? the final or match for 3rd?
PS: people like ChickenLips and DC elite make me lol irl :D
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4 carriers-5 phoenixes-2 collos, some zealots and stalkers.
all can be built off 2 bases in a relatively short time.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 19 2010 08:56 w_Ender_w wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 08:37 iEchoic wrote:
Lings don't really count, every zerg player basically has to make lings, it's a given.
I put this in quotes, bolded, because it also explains your later complaint. Show nested quote +Idra definitely executed flawlessly. Once again, I'm not downing on Idra or NonY, just commenting that one unit being so insanely dominant and well-rounded as the Hydra is a bit disappointing. I've played 5 zergs today and every one just massed Hydras.
This game's counter system is definitely confusing to a new SC player such as myself (I played AoE competitively). Some units seem to not really have effective counters (such as hydras) and instead you just have to mass more stuff. And then some units don't get countered by what their counters should be (i.e. vikings blow against mutas).
Game just makes little sense to me tbh, and sometimes it just seems like whoever masses more stuff wins, regardless what the opponent makes. I've never played an RTS before where a player can just mass shit and not care if you try to counter them... And still win.
Quite frankly, massing Hydras is almost at that "every zerg player basicly has to make" status. They are the only quick response to air, and the only mid/early zerg unit with decent range. They are also one of the only zerg units that can stand up and fight as a main army unit. I think I speak for most zerg players when I say I wish I COULD get away with using other units instead of Hydra, but in all honesty, our alternative choices are either poor or simply don't exist. And there certainly are effective counters to Hydra, such as Colossus or HT's. You just can't get them out of a 4-gate push.
Lolled at this ownage So true, everybody thinks Z is OP because they refuse to adapt their own play. "If my 4 gate push dosent win me the game, Z is OP."
Zerg is a macro race, thats the ONLY thing they got going for them, but they do it well. (even though its hard to master as a player). P has much more bang for the buck + is a micro-race at its core, still people mass units, a-move and thinks they should win vs Z. If you cant beat masshydras you need to change your strat. HTs are way underused by Protoss.
You need to adapt during game. Following BOs you find in the forum is fine, but you still need to think on your feet, no one game is exactly like any other. There is a dynamic ingame, and if you refuse to recognise that and blindly do you own thing, fine. Just dont call the other cheater/imba/op everytime you loose, Because you will loose. Alot. And if you go blame/shame instead of realising your own errors, you will never learn.
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On May 19 2010 08:56 w_Ender_w wrote:
I think I speak for most zerg players when I say I wish I COULD get away with using other units instead of Hydra, but in all honesty, our alternative choices are either poor or simply don't exist.
Exactly... With the roach nerf, there's nothing really else that Zergs can do
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Cant remember game 1.
Game 2 was interesting with some usage of the phoenixes. I would have like Nony to try to expand while harassing with phoenixes and not push with his ground force, especially his second push which failed hard.
Game3 I really think idra played this one very well and with a touch of creativity. The colossi give to mutalisks was a huge mistakes.
On the lasts posts... I wonder what people want Zerg to do beside massing Hydras or Lings and maybe Roaches (but not that much lately...)... I mean it's not like there is a ton of units Zergs can do mid-game... Maybe add a infestor here and there but it is not alwas useful.
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On May 18 2010 06:42 LaLuSh wrote:
I was heavily relying on hydras the first weeks/month of the beta. I honestly think that the ZvP build I was using at that time was one of the best and safest builds available. I didn't have any problems against anyone ZvP. A non roach opening gives the zerg alot of freedom in terms of tech switching and mid game map control.
But that was only until...
They nerfed hydra firing rate. And protosses started using builds that included more than 3 gateways on 1 base. It could still hold 4gate on maps with moderate to long rush distances (with some effort).
Then they nerfed hydra hp. 5gate builds became nearly impossible to hold if you forgoed roaches. You need at least 7 spine crawlers to make it work. On maps like blistering sands and kulas, where there are destructible rocks you need twice the amount of spines. Holding a 4gate with a straight to hydra build is basically a coin flip.
I honestly don't think any expansion strategy with protoss has enough juice in it to punish a zerg that went for a roachless build. And I'm speaking from experience since I had to rethink and relearn my entire ZvP matchup after the hydra nerfs and after the naniwa-style of PvZ (5gate every game) became popular.
Relying on speedlings to carry you through the early game (without massive spine crawler use) is always a gamble.
It's ironic because if you put any skilless (relatively speaking) 5gating euro noob in this series he might've actually won.
I'm sure Idra would've reacted appropriately had he scouted the 5 gate all-in.
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On May 19 2010 15:38 s031720 wrote:Lolled at this ownage So true, everybody thinks Z is OP because they refuse to adapt their own play. "If my 4 gate push dosent win me the game, Z is OP."
Uh, what thread are you reading? Nobody is saying Z is OP...
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Idra just showed the power of keeping composure and macroing at all times. I really thought Nony had a great chance at winning on scrap station if he just left maybe a zel or two on the drone lines while focusing on sniping hydras.
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On May 19 2010 09:22 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 05:49 travis wrote:
ok to the 5000 people who said it:
Nony said he made mistakes. He said he didn't play perfect. Not that he played badly. Anyone is liable to make mistakes when the opponent is bringing a level of game you aren't used to. Learn reading comprehension. Making mistakes is not the same as playing badly.
Nony did not play that badly, and he would have absolutely annihilated any of you by playing as good as he did.
But I never would have even posted anything had people not only said that Nony played badly, but then posted little lists of bullshit like they would have done it better in the game had they been playing. It's fine to be critical, but not when you don't even know what you're talking about. Nony's ability to annihilate the average player even while playing bad has nothing to with whether or not he played badly that series. Judging from the mistakes that were made, I would say he played badly, that's my opinion, you're acting as if every one is an idiot because you disagree.
I have to agree. Nony made mistakes that equated to him playing badly. Now, of course he still played way way way better than I have and there's no way I could've done better, but there's no denying that he simply didn't play as well as he could have.
In pretty much all three of the games his expansion went up way too late, especially considering how he essentially knew Idra was a macro player doing the same build every game. He made micro and decision mistakes here and there but in the end, it was his macro that really lost him the games. Tbh, it was a rather disappointing series because we've all seen Nony play much, much better games.
That said, he's still one hell of a good player and I believe he already mentioned how he didn't get much practicing done for that match because of school and other matters of life. It can't be expected for him to play at his top form against one of the strongest Zerg players in the scene right now when Nony was stressed, tired, and barely able to have practiced.
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nony said earlier in the thread he made too many major mistakes while idra made none.. well, i think it's important that, idra has very few mistakes he could even make. as zerg, with great apm dedicated to solid macro, most major decisions are obvious.
would be interesting to see great macro/defensive play from a toss pro player facing idra.
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On May 19 2010 16:33 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2010 15:38 s031720 wrote:Lolled at this ownage So true, everybody thinks Z is OP because they refuse to adapt their own play. "If my 4 gate push dosent win me the game, Z is OP." Uh, what thread are you reading? Nobody is saying Z is OP...
On the countrary, everyone complaining about the masshydras are saying that Z (through Hydra) is OP. Its not.
Im sure soon Bl. will nerf hydras and Zerg will build only lings and blings. And then people who refuse to adapt their play will say that that is OP.
Pretty soon Z will be removed from the game. Rince and repeat with protoss. Then we are back at warcraft 2. Awesome!
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If you guys had watched White-Ra vs Check in the World Cup tournament, this debate would be settled. White-Ra coped with the hydra drops and ended up out macroing the Zerg. He really showed how late-game Protoss should be played.
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OP - You are arguing something the - probably best Zerg in the world - can do. The rest of the 99.5% of Z players out there could never keep up the micro and macro idrA does.
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The problem is zerg's units are too one dimensional.
The sentry has great spells like forcefield AND it has a nice ranged attack as a bonus. The infestor doesnt attack at all, making it useless after its spells are depleted.
The viking can tranform into a ground unit. The corruptor is ONLY AA and is useless if you build too many and kill all the air units.
Broodlords are too high up on the tree for them to be used often. Its not like we see carriers and battle cruisers all the time, so when people say go broods, they are supa tard.
Thus, the only basic MULTIfunctional units zerg has is lings, hydra, and muta, which is all you see.
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On May 19 2010 23:58 kheldorin wrote:
If you guys had watched White-Ra vs Check in the World Cup tournament, this debate would be settled. White-Ra coped with the hydra drops and ended up out macroing the Zerg. He really showed how late-game Protoss should be played.
You have a link to that?
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haven't read all 11 pages, just OP
but I've had some success opening 2gateways zealots into 2 starport pheonix into expo + 3 more gates.
The idea w/ this build is to get Zeals to defend against lings or pressure, depends on map/ramp, and then harass heavily w/ pheonix until enough hydras pop. While you, expand, get charge, and more gateways.
Zealots do pretty well against hydras if they have speed. With enough pheonix it's not too hard to get into a pretty decent situation and really shuts down any muta switch and forces zerg into hydras. Void rays are solid transition out of pheonix for the later game as well.
Obv no expert, but I've had a ton of success against FE Hydra openings at like 1500 plat. Nub I know, but yeeeeeeee
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On the countrary, everyone complaining about the masshydras are saying that Z (through Hydra) is OP. Its not.
Nope, actually, I'm not saying that. Read the thread.
I'm saying that it's boring and is a sign that Zerg's units are not balanced with respect to eachother. I don't think Z is overpowered, just that their military choices are simplistic and bland. You're imagining people are saying things are imbalanced where it doesn't actually exist. Stop the persecution complex and derailing the thread.
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EPT
