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ZvP - Mass Hydra - Doom drop - Speedling harass - Expansionist build (fast expo)
I just lost earlier today against a fast expo mass hydra build as a toss and seeing NonY loosing to the same kind of build is really leaving me clueless.
Early game
I guess you can put pressure with chronos boosted zealot on 2 gates but that's not a game winning move and it delays your own tech + expansion. Making it even more worthless if you don't succeed at taking out your opponent's expansion considering yours have been delayed because of all that mineral spent on zealots.
At the moment your opponent really gets his expansion, you'll see 1 or 2 spine crawlers up and speedlings kicking in. Denying you the opportunity to attack him except if you go in an all in attack 4 or 5 warpgate push... and yet NonY tried that and failed.
Mid game
you should have your expansion by then and even earlier then that but still, later then your opponents'. The zerg have its hydras making it suicidal to push for a T1 protoss force except if you succeed at throwing down exceptionally nice force fields but even then... hydra's range upgrade render that useless as they can still shoot, it just exposes 'em a tad more to zealots.
You now have to choose carefully your next tech... immortals ? Not the best choice... Collosus ? Common choice but costly and you have to reach critical mass before putting 'em to real good use + termal lance. By then a normal zerg player will know that and have mutas or corrupters.
Templars ? I remember a game i don't know which players it was but the toss held at 2 base against a map wide zerg just with pure storm awesomeness against hydras ultras broodlords etc... it is the best build in my opinion.
But here's my point : you gotta try to expand out of your natural... and here's the huuuge problem as we've seen from NonY : speedlings can just harass you, forcing you to cover your expansion while hydras can doom drop your base all day long, doing hit and run with minimal losses.
You COULD get air of course... but to really be effective against the zerg's mass hydra go gotta invest all the resources you can gather into hard countering that tactic which leaves you almost no window for other techs.
Plus... the fact that you're on the defensive means the zerg is just expanding and out macroing you.
Any ideas ? What am I missing ?
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this is ur first post?
Anyways-
Plus... the fact that you're on the defensive means the zerg is just expanding and out macroing you.
This isn't StarCraft 1 style, I mean the theory still applies but it's not as devastating
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Chargelots with HT backup or collosus that tends to do well, also taking a second quickly is very strong, especially if you can block in to prevent the lings from getting in. more obs would have helped nony too.
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this shouldnt be a metagame strategy discussion. this should be an analysis as towards why nony had horrible micro and screwed up everything.
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High templar with storm demolish the 80 hp hydralisks and are not as exposed to air as collossi, you also have forcefield to get them to stay inside the storms, archon help alot with their + damage to bio, dark templars do alot of damage and are invisible.
Without roaches, zerg doesnt have any unit that functions as a tank against storm, thus high templar suddenly becomes this super viable unit that nobody thought about, as for the doom drop, well its not like zerg couldnt do that beforehand.
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Honestly, i think upgraded speedlots rip through ling and hydra pretty effectively when upgraded properly. if you had the right mix between zealots and sentries to control your opponents army, it would be very effective IMO.
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8748 Posts
I made a lot of mistakes in the first two games. I definitely wasn't executing as well as possible so I didn't do my ideas justice. As far as getting cross positions ZvP on Metalopolis... well, that's very difficult to play "normally". Anyway, I would advise not jumping to conclusions based on my series against IdrA because, in my opinion, it was pretty clearly just the case that IdrA wasn't making huge mistakes and I was.
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I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
It seems to me that zerg FE is very hard to beat if you don't try something risky (void ray rush, immortal push).
What do you think about it?
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SPOILER:
Those games were awesome, can't wait for them to be up on youtube so I can take better notes on that mass hydra build 
It always seems like a race is imba when a good player gets wrecked by a better player. I think Nony tried some really great strats but just didn't have the proper execution against Idra. When he let all those zerglings slip into his base (1st game), and couldn't do anything about it cuz all the front door pressure, that was just really great play by Idra. I don't think there was anything Nony could have done. Game 2 was very close it seemed, but Idra's macro prevailed. And Idra's doom drops in game 3 really shook Nony's concentration.
What I'm trying to say is that Idra, being the pro gamer he is, created his own advantage and rode those advantages to victories. This does not mean that Zerg is imba and Protoss are useless. If Nony could have created his own advantages instead of letting Idra macro just a little bit too much, it would have been a different series.
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+ Show Spoiler +game 3 nony can just split up his army and defend properly, make some cannons before moving out
and the terrible micro losing all those colossus for nothing cost him the game
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Krayze, I don't agree about Idra being "better player" :-P They are both top player, and one them is amazing to look at while playing :-D
I don't see any fun in just massing Hydras
However, GG to everyone and thanks for the games, congratulations to both players.
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Nony, this might go better in the other thread but what do you think was the biggest reason you made those mistakes? Were you not prepared sufficiently for the matches and Idra's strategies, or was it just a sort of "shit happens" moment?
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8748 Posts
On May 17 2010 06:18 Entropia wrote:
I've looked at all game, everytime NonY was making very nice moves, well placed force field, nice phoenix control (killed how many overlord?) abut everytime the mass hydra was winning. Nothing more, nothing less.
The main problem with the Scrap Station game is deciding to use the Force Fields on the ramp to hold back Hydras rather than using Force Fields as a way to efficiently kill Hydras. Also, trying to kill the Lair rather than focusing on killing his army efficiently was a bad decision. The build I was doing needs to focus on killing his fighting units efficiently. Both of those decisions go counter to that. Once he has enough Hydras together, they are too strong. The build strikes just before that and needs to kill Hydras as they come out.
The Kulas game had plenty of poor micro decisions from me as well. The build I did wasn't the best either. My placement at my natural wasn't the best. I also tried to build a support bay and it didn't build so that was late.
On May 17 2010 06:26 Azarkon wrote:
Nony, this might go better in the other thread but what do you think was the biggest reason you made those mistakes? Were you not prepared sufficiently for the matches and Idra's strategies, or was it just a sort of "shit happens" moment?
IdrA is much better than any Zerg I played so he put up more resistance than I was used to. I also just made many more careless mistakes than I usually do. Whether this is from not enough practice, not enough practice against challenging opponents, not enough familiarity with SC2 yet, or just general fatigue, I don't know. I certainly think that with all the knowledge I have of PvZ so far, I could have put together a winning series. I just wasn't playing well enough.
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One thing's for sure: You can't just outmacro a zerg like Idra. Idra won the last game so decisively because Nony wasn't able to apply any real pressure at all. The first 2 games were more even because Nony kept Idra's economy better under control.
Basically you have 3 options against Zerg: cheese, all in, keeping his economy down.
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On May 17 2010 06:27 Liquid`NonY wrote:
IdrA is much better than any Zerg I played so he put up more resistance than I was used to. I also just made many more careless mistakes than I usually do. Whether this is from not enough practice, not enough practice against challenging opponents, not enough familiarity with SC2 yet, or just general fatigue, I don't know. I certainly think that with all the knowledge I have of PvZ so far, I could have put together a winning series. I just wasn't playing well enough.
I see. That does explain quite a bit, as I see you dominating Zergs on your stream without much sweat and that probably makes it a lot easier to not correct small - but significant - mistakes. I guess Idra really is on another level compared to the Zergs we have around here. But it's good to know that you feel confident about your builds as I really enjoy your style of play.
Good luck against TLO.
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NonY, Don't worry, We still Love you =D
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nony fighting! bring out merch! 
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Watched the games live, I wish the outcome had been the other way around but I agree with those who say that there was nothing especially wrong with the builds, just random small mistakes when it comes to execution and such things can easily turn an entire game, those zerglings getting into the main in game one for example. Had that gap in the wall been protected the entire game could had looked vastly different.
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what replay or vod is this, link?
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no vods yet; check hdstarcraft channel on youtube in a day or so
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EPT
